Question For 12" Table Saw Owners

[John McClanahan]

I have been looking to upgrade my contractor style Craftsman table saw with more of a cabinet style saw. I have a chance to buy a German made 12 inch sliding table cabinet saw for what I feel is a fair price. The saw is 100 miles away, and I'm trying to do as much research as possible before making the drive.

This saw has a metric sized arbor with a bushing for blades with a 1" arbor hole. The owner says he has a dado blade for it, but from what I have read about European saws is that the arbor is too short for dado blades. Any input on this?

I have a large assortment of "average" 10" blades (no WW2s) plus blade stabilizers, molding head and probably other stuff that would fit a 5/8" arbor.

For a hobbyist, am I getting out of my league with a 12" saw? Is a sliding table worth giving up a "standard" arbor? Should I jump on this, or wait for a 10" saw?

On the plus side, this saw has a dust port, one of the things I want my "new" saw to have.

What I want seems to be rare on CL in my area, while what I currently have shows up daily.

Thoughts and comments are welcomed!

Thanks,
John

[Joe Kieve]

I would personally stay with a 10" unless you have a specific need to go to a 12". I recently bought a 10" Unisaw off CL for less than $600. They're out there, just keep looking. Took me almost a year to find one. BTW, stuff to fit a 10" with a 5/8 arbor are a whole lot cheaper than stuff to fit a 12" with a 1" arbor.
Just my 2 cents.

Joe

[Callan Campbell]

John, it might help to post the make of the saw so if any Creekers have personal usage of this machine, they can add it. Personally, having gone with an upgrade of my old 8 1/4" miter saw to my new 12 inch model, getting a bigger saw can open up possibilities for your woodworking that you hadn't thought about, no matter what type of saw it is. What is the motor size on the 12 inch machine?.

[Mike Ruggeri]

I am a hobbyist and have a 12" blade on my slider. You can get your old blades re-bored to work with the metric size on the new saw and use 10" blades as well in the slider. Some european saws have dado capacity while others don't (mine does). I don't think a saw like this is too much for a hobbyist as I find the benefits and safety of a slider to be great (love having a riving knife). Compared to my old uni-saw, the dust collection is much better on my slider (my guess is because it was designed like that as opposed to an afterthought on my uni-saw). If the price is right, I would say check it out as the european slider are really nice to use. It will probably seem like a huge jump from a craftsman table saw but it will be an adjustment you will end up loving.

Mike

[Rod Sheridan]

John, my opinion is similar to Mike's.

I ditched a General 650 for a Hammer B3 and had my existing blades bored to 30mm, along with having the pin holes bored.

It was under $16 per blade.

The only 12" blade I have is a rip blade.

My saw takes a dado blade, and as Mike indicated the capability, capacity and accuracy make a slider a great hobby saw.

Regards, Rod.

[John McClanahan]

The saw is a Scheppach TS 4000. That model was replaced with the 4010, and now the 4020. A Google search turns very little on the 4000. An Ebay search turned up nothing in North America.

John

[Gary Curtis]

Have your old blades bored out to the Sheppach arbor at a saw sharpening place. They all do that service regularly. You will love using a 12" blade, though. Especially if you ever have to slice a 4x4" timber.

Dado blades are prohibited by European safety organizations. I've seen threads on some of the English WWing forums about Dado use. You might shoot an email question about arbor length on Sheppach to Axminster Tools in England. They sell the brand.

[Chris Fournier]

I have recently made the move to a slider with a 1" arbor and up to 14" blade capacity and I'd suggest that you'd be very happy with the 12" option for blades, I know that I am!

Cost and availability is a non-issue if you can get hooked up with a good supplier. As has been mentioned, getting your 5/8" arbor blades bored out to 1" is not expensive.

[Gary Curtis]

Just checked my INCA 12" saw. The arbor is 1". The earlier responder said his Hammer saw had a 30mm arbor must have a bigger machine than mine. 1" works out to 25mm, and is standard on a lot of European equipment. But a sharpening service will be familiar with any of these sizes since machine shops use them all on metalworking tools.

My favorite saw brand is Everlast, and they offer the 1" arbor hole as a standard option.

[Steve Costa]

I have a 12" Inca, sold by Garrett Wade (awhile back) 1" arbor and splitter. Can do dados up to 3/4" which requires changing out the spacing bushings.

The key to buying this saw is to make sure you get the miter gauge and all other accessories that goes with it. If the miter slot is metric (mine is 20MM) finding an aftermarket miter guage is at best difficult as all of the one I see advertised are for 3/4" x 3/8" slots.

[Jeff Duncan]

Not sure why one would want to use 10" blades on a 12" saw....I would guess you would lose capacity over the 10"? I use both a 10" and 12" saw and have appropriately sized blades for both.

A couple other things to keep in mind especially as a casual user. Will you be able to get parts for this machine? I personally haven't heard of that manufacturer. Of course that doesn't mean anything, but I would certainly want to make sure I could get parts before buying it. As compared with say a Unisaw where parts and help are widely available.

Also if you want to get into any aftermarket gadgets, you'll be out of luck on most of them.

just things to consider....good luck,
JeffD

[Hugh MacDonald]

John, I would strongly recommend upgrading to the 12" saw. I am a hobbyist who recently went from a new Unisaw to an older SCMI sliding table saw. I haven't heard of the Scheppach make, so I would try to research the quality of that brand and the ability to get parts and support for their machines. But my guess is that a German machine is likely to be well-made and superior in quality to many other brands.

If you haven't used a slider before, that in itself will be a revelation to you, and will revolutionize your work process. I'm not sure if you'll want or need a miter gauge for a saw with a sliding table, as long as it comes with its crosscut fence, which should have the ability to swing one way or the other to enable angled cuts. It seems to me that miter gauges are paltry stand-ins for what a sliding table can accomplish.

Aside from those most important issues, using 12" blades will give you significantly more cutting height, which will come in handy one day, and you'll be glad you've got it. Finding 12" blades at a bargain shouldn't be much harder than getting 10" blades. The responder who made that claim suggested that you "keep looking" for a 10" saw, and that they're "out there." I can tell you from experience that good deals on 12" blades with 1" arbors are "out there" as well. Just the other day a fellow-Creeker was giving away about 6 of them for the price of shipping. Ebay is loaded with them as well. In fact, in many cases 12" blades are cheaper second-hand or on CL and eBay because there is less hobbyist-woodworker demand for them.

About the dado capability: I know several Creekers here like to promulgate the notion that most European sliders CAN'T accommodate a dado stack. That may be true in some cases but is definitely not categorically true. If the current owner has a dado and says it works, then it probably works. There are threads here on SMC in which otherwise knowledgeable woodworkers claim that my SCMI saw model cannot support a dado stack, when in fact it came from the factory with an arbor sleeve for dado blades that can fit a stack up to 13/16".

Finally, find out what kind of power you need for the German saw. It's almost certain that it's larger and more powerful than your Craftsman, which runs on 110, while the bigger saw will likely need 220. It may even use three-phase electric, and converting can be costly.

[Frank Drew]

John

I had an Ulmia 1711 that could swing a 12" blade but I mostly used 10" or 11" blades since I had a bunch from my previous saw. I pretty much only used the 12" blade if I wanted to cut 16/4 stock in one go. If you have any blades re-bored, make sure the saw shop re-tensions the plates afterwards.

My saw had an arbor extension for the dado set; mildly fussy to use but it never took more than a minute or so to get the set mounted.

Don't think of this as getting a 12" saw, as useful as that might be sometimes; think of it as getting a sliding table saw, which is one of the great innovations of all time. Really.

[John McClanahan]

The saw is single phase, 220 Volts, I think 3 HP. From what I can tell, it comes with the stuff you would expect it to have. If I get it, I think I will just buy 12" blades. This better saw may mean I need to invest in better quality blades! I can't make the trip till this weekend, so I'm rolling the dice.

Frank, can you explain the arbor extension? Is it like a screw-on bushing that changes the arbor diameter from a metric size to 1" while adding extra length? Is it specifically for your saw?

Thanks, John

[Larry Edgerton]

http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/page.asp?p=1493

John

I have never seen one. I did read this and some others I could find on the net, in english at least and it is my opinion, and that is all it is, my opinion that I would not buy it myself. Its just too light. Heavy is not always the answer, but I feel it is on a tablesaw. I don't use the little portables in my construction business because I just do not feel they do the job, nor do I feel they are safe enough. I haul a Delta with a cast iron top from job to job.

I would be a bit worried about parts. Because it is light it is more likely to get broken, and as there is little in the way of support in this country it seems, there will be little in the way of parts support.

I see the cost in pounds is not terrible, but maybe a little over the top for what it is. It depends on what you are buying it for. If you are getting it for a song, a price that will not hurt you too bad if you find it does not meet your needs, then I would say go ahead. But if you are paying too much, for an unknown, maybe you should keep looking.

Just my opinion mind you.......

[Larry Edgerton]

Oh ya.


I have a MiniMax and use an arbor extension with the dado set. It is basically a sleave that is threaded on the inside that slips over the arbor and threads on. On my saw the inside of the arbor is threaded to recieve a special bolt that is what holds the dado blade on. A bit of a pain, but not really an issue for me, still love the saw.

[Hugh MacDonald]

John, is this what the machine looks like, more or less?

http://www.scheppach.com/en/products/single-view/categories/tischkreissaegen-1/products/tischkreissaege-ts-4020/backPID/produktuebersicht.html?cHash=7a01b1711f

[John McClanahan]

Here is a Scheppach model TS 4000. It is not the one I'm looking at. I don't think the one I'm looking at has a fold down table extension like this one (a big disappointment). The over arm dust collection is an option that I don't think it has. The owner has a Freud 10" dado blade for it. I don't know if it is a stack or wobble, and I gather he has never used it. He wants extra for it, but I'm going to try to get him to throw it in the deal.


John

[CPeter James]

I am always afraid of orphans. A foreign machine that is not common would be tough to get parts for. It could become a boat anchor because some small part failed and replacements are not available.

CPeter

[Hugh MacDonald]

It's a good-looking machine. Much more redoubtable than the benchtop saw or whatever it was that someone posted earlier. The fold-down table would be nice. So would the dust hood, although my slider has a similar dust hood and I don't use it very often because it's a little obtrusive when making various cuts.

Several posters (including myself) have warned about the ability to acquire parts and support, but I was able to locate Scheppach's web site in an English version within seconds. I'd just try to make contact with someone there and see if they do supply parts if something ever goes wrong. But that's a pretty strong looking machine. Do you have any idea what they want for that machine new?

You should be able to get that guy to throw in the dado, but if he doesn't and you don't want to pay extra, let me know because I'm in need of a 10" dado for my new saw.