New Pfeil Carpenter/Bench Chisels

[James White]

I picked up the "new" Pheil carpenters chisel set last night from Woodcraft. I have been searching the net for any feedback or reviews. But have not found any. I don't know how long these have been available. Just wondering if anyone here has them or even better has been able to compare them to the old style Pfeil chisel sets.

I don't know why Pfeil is calling them carpenters chisels. Is that what Europeans call bench chisels? I noted that they are boasting about the steel being K 510. Is that significant or is it standard for chisels. What about the rc 60 hardness. I thought I saw rc 61 or rc 62 regarding the old style. But I cant seem to find were I saw that. One of my main concerns and the reason why I purchased this set is edge retention.

From Pfiel http://www.pfeiltools.com/en/products/carpenter-tools.html

Blades are forged from K 510 steel, hardened up to 60 RC. Sides relief-angle ground., with well marked facets. Blades finely ground and polished. Wedge angle 25°, razor-sharp. Octagonal handles with oval section, made of strong oiled elm wood from Switzerland. The chisel is well in hand and can be guided with precision and ease.

From Woodcraft http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2081076/27384/pfeil-Swiss-made-Cabinetmakers-Bench-Chisels-6-piece.aspx

Developed over the last two years and one of the last projects our friend and colleague Tim Rinehart worked on before his passing, these new Limited Edition Swiss made Chisels are really special. First, they’re crafted from the finest Swiss Tool Steel, expertly ground on all sides with a 25° main bevel and a 30° micro bevel on the cutting edge. But what good is a blade without a proper handle? In this case, Elm was chosen for its’ beauty while an octagonal shape with a sight ovoid is used for improved control and comfort. The overall effect is the perfect union of old world craftsmanship, modern materials and the desire to create (what we think) may just be the perfect bench chisel. Set includes the following: 6mm, 10mm,12mm, 16mm, 19mm and 26mm chisels and a tool roll.


Electronically hardened alloy chrome-vanadium steel blade
European hardwood octagonal square tang handle
12 piece set
Swiss made
Finely ground and polished

James

[David Weaver]

If they are 60 hardness, they'll be plenty hard. I'd have trouble believing they're much different than anything marketed as 62 hardness.

I like the steel in pfiel chisels, i hope they're the same steel as the other ones.

[James Owen]

It may be to differentiate them from their standard bench chisels. It's hard to tell, but in Pfeil's website photos, they appear to have a pretty thin side bevel -- ala Lie Nielsen or Ashley Iles -- while the standard bench chisels have a fairly thick side bevel.

Based on using their standard bench chisels, carving tools, and chair-making tools, I would expect them to be of the same high quality; in my experience, you really can't go wrong with Pfeil tools.....

[James White]

Thank you both. I did buy based on the reputation of the company. I just hope it is not a case of the company cutting corners to improve profit. Does anyone know how long these have been out? I am surprised no one here has any exposure to them yet.

James

[James White]

A person asking about dovetail chisels posted this link. Do any of you think these chisels are strictly for paring?

http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product/730030/Pfeil-Paring-Chisels-6-piece-set/detail.jsf

The Pfeil site has a subtle hint about this. "The chisel is well in hand and can be guided with precision and ease."

http://www.pfeiltools.com/en/products/carpenter-tools/carpenter-chisels-set-cm-set-6.html

James

[David Weaver]

I would imagine it would be fine to strike them, I have much more delicate dovetail chisels than that and strike them without worrying.

i don't know anything about how tough elm is, but if you're striking them with a wooden mallet, I can't see how it would be a concern. If it did become one, I would just return them then. You can't really call something "carpenter's chisels" with the intention they won't be struck. Such a thing is often sold with a metal strike plate.

I think the two changes made to those chisels (handles that are comfortable in the hand and more delicate sides) are just the response to the criticism of the prior set of chisels, which had a less flattering profile ground on them.

The bit about "paring" on the Dick tools site and the discussion of how they feel in the hand may just be to emphasize that they aren't as blocky as the old ones.

[Rob Young]

I wrote this in another thread about the Pfiel chisels. I too recently received the 6 piece set. Didn't know about the steel type (K 510).

I found the backs to be quite flat, didn't take much at all to get them polished up. The steel cut less quickly on my wet grinder (hollow grinding) than the blue handle Marples I already had. It cut slower than the one or two pieces of A2 I've sharpened. No special testing or timing, just gut feelings. On the water stones it honed up just fine. Seems to hold an edge quite well at around 30. Had no trouble paring in cherry or pine (or the pine-like substitute you find at the home center).

I'm growing to like the handle shape. They are smaller diameter than the plastic Marples handles I'm used to but that isn't bad, just different. I use a plastic faced round mallet so no fears on striking the handles. I wouldn't chop a mortise with the smallest one but I've got no fear chopping in for dovetails with them.

The bevels are more refined than the Marples and most other "entry level" chisels I've seen. I compared them to a friend's A-I (not sure which exact A-I model) and they were thicker at the termination of the bevel, but not much. Same when compared to the LNs. But it's a pretty fine distinction, I'd say on the order of a 64th of an inch at the tip. Hardly enough to matter I think.

So far so good. They hold the edge much better than my Marples (and most would). I'm happy with the performance and this weekend I'll be demonstrating and helping at a LN tool event so I'll have a good chance to do some head-to-head. Should be interesting.

[Scott Flamm]

Rob - I would be interested in knowing how the head-to-head with the LN goes. I was planning on picking up some chisels in the near future and am strongly considering the Pfeils.

[Rob Young]

After spending two days demonstrating hand-tool skills (or lack of?) at a LN Hand Tool event I was able to compare the A2 version of their chisels to my new Pfiel bench chisels (octangonal elm wood handles). Edge retention was similar as was paring and chopping in cherry. The bevel edges on the LNs are quite thin as was all know, the Pfiel's have less of a bevel. So far I haven't found that to be a big difference.

The LN handles are more comfortable for paring when you push with your palm. I have a bruse on my palm from the smaller "point" of the Pfiel chisels. Again, these are the new style handles, not older style handles.

So all, in all, I'm quite happy with the Pfiels. The price was right (a gift) and I'll be keeping them for some time. I do however like the socket chisel handles and the idea of being able to more easily alter the handles apeals strongly to me. It may be that I purchase a few single LN chisels in the sizes I use most frequently for paring and supliment my set. If that is the case I would probably buy the O1 steel as I'm more accustom to the sharpening proceedures and angles for it as nearly all my other plane blades and my old chisel set are O1.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Unless you love carpel tunnels, it's not a good idea to push with your palm. Instead, wrap your hand around the handle, avoiding the tip. This is true even of the short little muchrooms on small carving chisels.

Pam

[James White]

Rob,

Thank you for sharing your experience with these chisels. I have not a had a chance to use mine yet. But I think they are going to be a great set. Too bad Woodcraft does not sell the individuals to fill in the gaps in sizes. I think Ill get the standard Pfiels for that. Then I can compare them as well.

James

[Rob Young]

Good point.

[James White]

I had sent an email to Pfeil asking if these new chisels were intended for pairing only. This was last week. However I think they were closed. I know they have "Carnival" last week. I don't know the holiday or if businesses close for it. But Pfeil was not answering there phone last week and I just received a response to my email this morning.

Thank you for your e-mail.

The carpenter chisels are made for works like chopping the waste from dovetails. You can use them with a mallet. I recommend you to work with the carpenter chisels on dovetails as they are more suitable for this precise work as the bench chisels. The hardness of the carpenter chisels is 60 RC and of the bench chisels 58 -59 RC.

Exaggerated, I describe the difference between these two tools as following: As we developed the carpenter chisels we wanted to make a beautiful tool for carpenters, for precise and professional working. The bench chisel is more for a craftsman, for rougher work.

Kind regards

Christine Zulauf


F. Zulauf Messerschmiede
und Werkzeugfabrikations AG
Dennliweg 29
CH-4900 Langenthal
Telefon +41 (0)62 922 45 65
Telefax +41 (0)62 922 01 14
info@pfeiltools.com
www.pfeiltools.com (http://www.pfeiltools.com/)
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[James White]

I sent an email back to Christen stating that I felt Carpenters chisels and bench chisels may not be the best words to describe these chisels to the US market. I said I would post here asking what the members of the forum thought would be better labeling for these new chisels vs the old bench chisels. With considering there attributes.

I mentioned that carpenters chisels would lead someone in the US to think they are intended for rough work. Were Craftsman may be considered for fine work. Just the opposite of what the language or terminology differences would indicate.

What do you all think? I will provide Christen with a link to this thread for any useful input any members may have.

James

[matthew hickey]

I am a former owner of the Pfiel bench chisels. I say former because after spending hours setting them up (which was relatively easy), I found that they did not hold their edge nearly as well as my cheap marples. Chopping mortises in ash and white oak was enough to roll their edges. In addition, I found the chisel handles to be very poorly finished - with marks left over from sanding. Given the price I was very disappointed in my purchase and ended up returning them to woodcraft to buy a set of lie nielsens.

[Mike Holbrook]

I expect that Pfiel's greatest competition was from the LN & AI chisels so they came out with a model more closely resembling the features on these chisels, attempting to improve on the handles a little with a shape that will not role on a bench.

[James White]

I finally had a chance to put my new chisels to use. I must say they are way better than the Footprint and Marples chisels that they are replacing. They are light, feel good in your hand and hold an edge well (strait out of the box). So far I have only lapped one. Even with my new set of Shaptons Starting at 1000. It took ages. I think the polishing process takes the back out of true flat and the steel is hard to cut. I was lapping the entire back. Is that what is recommended? This was a 3/4" chisel. I did cheat a little with XXC DMT stone. But those scratches are very hard to remove. I will use my work sharp for the next one and see how that goes.

James

[Rob Young]

I found the backs to be flat to slightly hollow. For a chisel I only bother with about the first 1" of the back so long at it is at least hollow. Really didn't take long at all and every time I go back to the 8000 stone or the honing board it just gets better. :)

I've been looking into what I believe the steel alloy to be (K510) and it is some hard stuff, comparable to A2. But not the same formula as A2.

After another week of use, I'm still a little bit conflicted on the handle shape. I'd like them to be a bit more "bulbous" at the ends as my hands are large enough that during paring I tend to end up with at least a little of the handle end poking my palm. Long term this cannot be good. I can choke up a bit but after a little bit they just seem to return to a "palm poke" grip automatically.

But for chopping, I like the feel of the handles and they definitely don't roll on the bench.

One possible solution to my personal issues with the handles would be to find some different ones to pare with, particularly socket types, so I can fine tune the handle. Down side is that if I have a job that requires moving back and forth between chopping and paring it gets annoying to keep changing chisels.

Such is life.

[Noreen Justice]

I too purchased these chisels but haven't had a chance to play with them yet. However, they were purchased on the recommendation of my woodworking instructor who had been testing them out as a new product. He uses a lot of Lie-Nielson tools and felt these were comparable and highly recommended them to the class (he usually recommends LN for all other hand tools). These have become his new favorites, especially because they hold their edge well. Also, as Rob commented, he felt the backs were quite flat and took very little effort to get that first polish.