Starter Dovetail Saw

[Mark ten Haaf]

Greetings.
Please help me choose a saw. I desperately want to hand cut beautiful dovetails. I'm designing a workbench with dovetailed rails; I know that I'm physically and mentally capable of doing it, and I need an affordable saw.
I'm pretty new here at the Creek, and I can see that I'm surrounded by masters. Can you help me find something that will get me started down a really fun road - something that I can justify to Mrs. ten Haaf?

[Adam Cormier]

What is your budget? Would you prefer a Japanese style saw or a Western (one cuts on the push, the other on the pull. It is a matter of personal preference)?

A consideration with a japanese style saw or a Western "gent" saw is that some people complain that cutting large amounts of dovetails with either of these can be quite tiring and hard on your wrist/hands, versus a Western style with more of a traditional handle which tends to be a little easier to use when cutting large quantities of dovetails.

Congrats on wanting to move to hand-cut dovetails! Be patient, it is a bit of an art.

Also, do you have any dovetail chisels?

[Pam Niedermayer]

...Can you help me find something that will get me started down a really fun road - something that I can justify to Mrs. ten Haaf?

Do you have any saws now? One of the best ways to learn to saw dovetails, or anything else for that matter, is to use a saw way too big for the task at hand.

I personally use Japanese saws for the most part, and cut dovetails in two or three strokes, tops. They're very fast, even the LV pro dovetail saw, which is fairly cheap and a very good saw. Of course, I learned how to saw from Toshio Odate in a weekend workshop. You should see him whip through a longish resaw.

What I'm really saying is that dovetails are a trivial sawing job that don't require any particular saw to do successfully. What? A 3/4" by 1" cut? Many will say you need a rip saw for this job; but my experience with the LV says it doesn't really matter.

Pam

[Mark ten Haaf]

My first instinct would be to go for a Western gent saw, as that is the only style I'm familiar with. I'm comfortable executing precise cuts with a $10 Irwin on framing lumber ;) , so the mechanics of handsawing on the forward stroke are there and automatic. I'm assuming though, that cutting with a high quality saw will be completely different.
I've seen gent saws for as much as 250.00 - I'm not prepared to spend that much. To start, I guess I'd like to find a used piece for $50 - 100.
And no, I don't have any chisels yet either. What would you recommend as a good, well rounded starter set?

[Pam Niedermayer]

...

And no, I don't have any chisels yet either. What would you recommend as a good, well rounded starter set?

I don't recommend starter sets of anything; but for dovetails, why not the LN straight handled dovetail saw (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1281). I've used this and liked it a lot. Or, the LV Japanese rip tooth dozuki (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=48338&cat=1,42884) or the LV Professional dozuki (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=32937&cat=1,42884), which I've also used and like even more. I think these are the best value for less than $76.

As for chisels, I'd start out with most anything and work from there, find out what you need.

Pam

[Mark Baldwin III]

I like the Veritas DT saws. I have all three. IIRC you can buy two of them together as a set, for just over $100. I'll leave chisel recommendations to someone else...my chisel skills still need plenty of work ;)

[Klaus Kretschmar]

If you like better the pushed western saws, I´d recommend the Veritas Dovetail saws http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=64007&cat=1,42884

These saws have a very good reputation concerning the performance. You hardly can get a better saw for the $. There are woodworkers who go on dovetailing with straight handeled Gent saws and who are very satisfied. I for one prefer the pistol handeled western saws since they feel to me to give better cutting control.

The dovetails you want to do on your workbench request another saw. The stock is thicker so you´d go better with a coarser saw with bigger depth. That´s a job for a Tenon saw.

Klaus

[Terry Beadle]

For your work bench project, I would recommend a japanese ryobi with cross cut and rip teeth. This saw has not back. It will cut very quickly and will let you cut far beyond any dove tail backed saw will. It's also very useful for tennons and other general cutting. For example: http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/japaneseikedameryobasaw.aspx

For dove tails the recommendations made above are dead on. The LV saws are really a good bargain for their quality level. If you are just learning dove tailing, I would recommend you use a hack saw with a blade in the 13 to 16 tpi range. This is really the cheapest way to go unless you find a great deal on the bay or a tool bin shop. Next above that is the gents saws, although I'd say the LN straight handled saw is on it's own level, including price. If you want to learn about how to sharpen a saw then one of the Pax type or Crown saws is a great starting point. I would recommend getting one of the kits from http://www.wenzloffandsons.com. There you can buy the parts to make your self a really first rate dove tail saw for under $100. Be willing to make your own handle, which is not a difficult project, and you can cut the cost even further.

As far as chisels are concerned, the Narex chisels from Highland Hardware http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/bevel-edge-chisels.aspx, are a really great bargain and good steel. For the price they are really hard to beat. When you are ready for some premium chisels, the the LN, Bluespruce, and Ashley Illes are all really good. It depends on the size of your hands and the nature of the stock your are working. For dove tail chisels, I highly recommend the japanese sword steel but they cost about $150 each so one is a privilege to own in my case. The Bluespruce paring chisels are also fantastic. http://www.bluesprucetoolworks.com I have one of his in 5/8ths width that is just a pleasure to use and performs almost ( so nearly it's hardly worth mentioning ) equivelent to the japanese sword steel.

Both the saws and the chisels will get you opinions all over the map as we live in a wonderful time where the buyer has many great products to choose from.

I would also say you don't need to buy a full set of chisels right out of the gate. The Narex set is less than $60 but you can buy them singly for under $10.

[Casey Gooding]

If cost is an issue, go with the Veritas Dovetail saw. It's a high quality saw that many professionals have made their main saw. It has a great price for what you get, as well.

[Prashun Patel]

i was in your boat a few months ago. I ended up with the Veritas dovetail saw 20tpi (doesn't cut as aggressively; a little more control for the beginner). But on a bench, you might want the coarser one. I ended up with Narex chisels.

Both of these were regarded as the best bangs for the $$$.

However, if I were to do it again, I'd get the LN chisels one at a time. The dovetail saw is specialized, and you may not do a lot of projects that require the Cadillac. But I reach for chisels every day, and I think it's wise to go top of the line as $$ permits here.

[Mark ten Haaf]

By "starter sets", I mean a small collection of the most versatile sizes. What sizes would be the best ones to start with?

[Charles Brown]

I bought the Lee Valley/Veritas dovetail saw (not the newest one with the fine 20ppi teet) that has the composite back. It's great. Cuts sweet and works well. There is about 2" under the back so that should cover a pretty large dovetail half-lap before it bottoms out.

I built Bob Lang's workbench last summer and even through ash, this saw handled very well. I thought $65 was a fair price. Also, being Canadian, I am more than happy to support a Canadian company (especially a quality Canadian company).

[Andrew Gibson]

I skimmsed everyones respoinces, and I think I will be repeating many of them.
First off, buy the very best tool you can afford... I learned to cut dovetails with a $10 sears saw... it was not fun the results were not good, I was 15, and I am still using the toolbox.

I have a LN dovetail saw, I would definitely recomend it. I would also recomend the Lee Valley dovetail saw... There are way to many glowing reviews of it around for it not to be a quality tool, but i think the handle is a bit big, I like a smallerish... handle such as the LN

As for chiselsI also say get the very best you can afford. I have scrugled for years with crappy chisles. just recently I invested in a set of LN chisles, and I must say at worst I have Zero buyers remorce.

[gary Zimmel]

Good tools make the learning curve a lot shorter IMHO..
One can't go wrong with a LN dovetail saw. Good luck with the handcut dovetails. You can't beat the feeling when you put together a nice joint...

[John Coloccia]

There are way to many glowing reviews of it around for it not to be a quality tool, but i think the handle is a bit big, I like a smallerish... handle such as the LN


Incidentally, this is exactly why I picked the Veritas over the LN. The LN handle felt cramped. :)

[David Weaver]

I agree with pam's comment above. A crosscut saw will cut dovetails pretty well. Long tenons, no, but dovetails, they cut well enough. Cut's cleaner, too.

I would put a pitch in for LV's dovetail saw if you like western or a gyochuko or Z combination dozuki. They are combination cut (the dozukis), but they cut a very clean dovetail and they're cheap. You can go up in cost later if you want.

[Mark ten Haaf]

Hey, thanks a lot everyone! You've given me a lot to think about, but I think I have a good mental jumping off point now. I really appreciate all the responses and suggestions. From such a group of experts, this information has incalculable value.

[Roy Lindberry]

I'm going to recommend the LV/Veritas Dovetail saw. I have both the coarse and the fine tooth, and they are exceptional. The only thing that keeps me wanting the Lie-Neilsen is the more classic look - the performance of the Veritas is superb, and for the price, unbeatable.

My dovetails still aren't great, but it isn't because of the sawcuts, which are very good. It is my chisel work that needs to improve.