New Bandsaw Purchase: Laguna vs. Minimax

[Hugh MacDonald]

I know this territory has been well trod, but I am hoping to get some general and specific information and opinions about various bandsaw comparisons.

I've been using a Grizzly G0555x 14" saw (which I just sold), mainly for resawing but also for general-purpose cutting and curved work. It is a nice little saw, and a very good value, but for resawing wider boards well, it seemed to have trouble tensioning blades 3/4" wide, and it simply couldn't accomodate a blade any wider than that. Trying to resaw with a 3/4" Woodslicer became maddening, as the blade drift seemed to change from cut to cut. Thus I decided to get a more robust, though not necessarily larger or more powerful machine. Actually the Grizzly's 1.5hp motor and 12" resaw capacity weren't bad.

Now I'm considering a Laguna 14" SUV, which features a 3hp motor and 14" of resaw capacity (we'll see), along with the bells and whistles of a larger saw, including brake and rack-and-pinion guide post. All for a pretty good price of $1495. The only issue for me is that this saw is made in China, and after learning my lesson from a few Chinese tools, I'm trying to avoid them. (I do have some Taiwanese machines that work well, but with any new acquisitions I'm trying to buy European tools. I'm also hoping one day to pick up an old Oliver, Northfield, or Tanny jointer and table saw, but that's one day...when I have the time and money to restore such a machine.)

I know from friends who own them, and from reading the testimony of many fellow-Creekers, that the Mini-Max bandsaws are much beloved. On one thread here, numerous MM owners said if they had to make the decision again, they would buy the MM16 or MM24 without hesitation, a powerful endorsement. Clearly the machines are well-made, with the power and strength to tension a larger blade and resaw with aplomb. Purchased new, however, they are also much more expensive than the Laguna 14" or 16" bandsaws, and I'm not sure I want to or can afford to spend the extra money. And as I've just sold my Grizzly, I'm going to need to fill its spot soon.

So: is there anyone out there with experience with both the Laguna SUV and MM (or Aggazani or Centaur or Griggio or Felder or Zimmermann$$$$)? Does anyone have an informed opinion on the Chinese-made Laguna bandsaws in general, vs. European saws? Am I making too much of the Chinese vs. European quality issue, or is it worth it for me to wait for a good deal on a used MM here on SMC or elsewhere?

[Montgomery Scott]

I purchased the newer design MM16 several years ago. In my search for a BS I put Laguna, Aggazani and MiniMax in the running. The MM won out in the end because it had a greater resaw capacity than the Aggazani, which I have needed several times, and had a stellar CS reputation very much unlike Laguna at the time. If I had to do over again I would look at the Aggi and the MM in a 24" size, but perhaps I'd just go with the MM16 again.

I know that Laguna would not be considered, nor would any Chinese or Taiwanese made saw.

[Jon McElwain]

Laguna 14" SUV, which features a 3hp motor and 14" of resaw capacity (we'll see), along with the bells and whistles of a larger saw, including brake and rack-and-pinion guide post.

I have this saw. The most I have cut was 13-3/4" in mountain ash - no problem, plenty of power to make the cut. Opened all the way up, the distance between the table and the bottom of the guides is 15-1/16". The gripes that I have had with it are that the initial setup took some time as adjustments were not spelled out very well at all in the manual (the manual looked like it was slapped together in Microsoft word - then photo copied until all the pages were out of alignment and the picture quality was fuzzy. Also, the foot brake got bound on the trim piece where it went through the lower cabinet. Had to grind out a new bolt hole to gain enough adjustment to allow the foot brake to work freely. Last thing was the belt tension indicator was not assembled correctly. I had to disassemble the quick release mechanism and put it back together with the tension indicator installed correctly.

I was pretty frustrated with the setup of this machine, however, once I got it set up and started using it, the frustrations disappeared. That said, I would look hard at another brand, or possibly look at the actual Italian made saws from Laguna before getting another 14" SUV.

[Todd Bin]

I think you should strongly consider the Aggazani. I would comment that MM is no longer owned by the same company they were when all those glowing threads were written. I think based on recent threads that Laguna has realized the importance of CS but some of their saws are built in Taiwan. I didn't exactly have great customer service with MM. They sent me the wrong saw (3 phase) when I ordered a single phase. They promised me stuff to make up for the mess this turned into and I never saw a single thing. They eventually sent a tech out to my shop to help but I was out of pocket hiring help to load/unload the second saw that arrived. This wouldn't be so bad if it was an MM16 but an MM24 is very large and heavy. There was aslo some damage that wasn't fully addressed.

Edit: I meant to add that you never hear anyone complain about Aggazanni. And Eagle tools always get Kudos for customer service.

[McKay Sleight]

I taught woodworking and had the 14 and the 14suv. I had no idea that they were built in the far east. Both were incredible saws and held up well with student use. (student use is equivalent of setting the saw in the snow for a few seasons, hitting the saw with a few well placed hammer hits and in general mis-use.) I have not used the other saws, but I did like the Laguna. replacing the blade was tedious because of all of the different sized allen screws.

[Gary Herrmann]

I didn't know that Minimax had changed hands. Good to know. I bought my saw before that happened, so have had nothing but good experiences with them.

[Van Huskey]

I would comment that MM is no longer owned by the same company they were when all those glowing threads were written.

Care to elaborate...

AFAIK Minimax has been owned by SCM since the middle 80's. I think if you look at the MM threads over the last year the vast majority have seen excellent CS but as a general rule the BS hardly ever need support, they just cut.

"I think based on recent threads that Laguna has realized the importance of CS but some of their saws are built in Taiwan."

I am pretty sure no Laguna bandsaws are built in Taiwan.

[Van Huskey]

There is a lot of questions and ground to cover with your thread. I own both a Laguna LT 18 and a MM20 and have spent some time playing with the Laguna 3000 series.

I think the Laguna 3000 series is pretty well liked very rarely do I see anyone have issues with them. They are very well built compared to most of the Asian saws and better designed than all but one BS that comes from Asia. They are well priced, highly featured and overall do a great job. It also has the Laguna guides which are my favorite.

The Italian saws are in another league, period. Each of the big three have their strong points and their weak points. I personally would not buy a Minimax if it was going to be my only BS, but I collect bandsaws like dogs collect fleas. For a dedicated resaw bandsaw the MM line would absolutely be my choice, it is a heavier built machine, it has a triple boxed spine that laughs at deflection.

I could wax on about bandsaws all day but it comes down to this, I would always suggest one of the Italian saws over the Asian saws but the SUV is a fine saw and their is no similar Italian saw imported. Waiting for a resonably new Italian saw to come up used CAN be a long wait, so your patience comes into play. Waiting for an EXACT Italian bandsaw on the used market might try Job, so if you decide to go the used route and wait for an Italian saw it is probably best not to get your heart set on an exact make and model, it isn't like buying a used car.

Some things to think about in the used market. I really like Agazzani saws BUT most of them in the used market are going to be "traditional" bandsaws with shorter resaw heights, they do have "resaw" bandsaws now with the taller resaw heights brought into vogue by Laguna but they tend to be few and far between in the used market. I suppose what I am saying is you will have to educate yourself about the different eras and models so you can quickly jump if one pops up on CL. In the end it is hard to go wrong with any one of the Italian saws even in the used market as long as they haven't been abused but you do need to verify exactly what you are getting in terms of capacity and motor.

In very general terms used as a dedicated resaw I like the MM, Laguna and Agazzani in that order, for a general use bandsaw that I expect to do everything I rank them in just the opposite order.

[Hugh MacDonald]

I'm very glad that I asked, because I've gotten superb responses so far. Everyone's input has been extremely helpful.

Van Huskey, you touch on several important issues, one of which was on my mind but which I forgot to pose: the Laguna guides get rave reviews, but I've only used roller bearings. Are they really superior or do other guide types work just as well, and are they worth getting a Laguna for?

Van, out of curiosity, which Asian bandsaw is better designed than the Laguna, in your opinion?

I know that it could be a long and arduous wait for a bandsaw to come up for sale near me. I passed on a MM16 at a great price here about two years ago and really regret it now. But I'd be happy to acquire either a MM, Griggio, or Agazzani and my requirements are hyper-specific. I also don't need, like, 30" of resaw capacity. But I would like this to be my last bandsaw for quite awhile, so I want it to be very well made and to be capable of executing well a range of bandsaw tasks. For that reason I have been concerned about buying Chinese and have preferred idea of the Italian saws.

[Hugh MacDonald]

I taught woodworking and had the 14 and the 14suv. I had no idea that they were built in the far east. Both were incredible saws and held up well with student use. (student use is equivalent of setting the saw in the snow for a few seasons, hitting the saw with a few well placed hammer hits and in general mis-use.) I have not used the other saws, but I did like the Laguna. replacing the blade was tedious because of all of the different sized allen screws.

Very good to know, McKay.

[Hugh MacDonald]

Van, thanks for the great response.

As for your location in the world, I think it is no coincidence. You are living on the wrong continent, and need to move to Italy.

[Van Huskey]

replacing the blade was tedious because of all of the different sized allen screws.

Sorry I missed this earlier but they have been redesigned and much more user friendly, it isn't the "dance of nine allen wrnches" anymore much more is done with thumb screws now.

[Eric DeSilva]

I was searching for a BS to do resawing, looked at both Laguna and MM, ended up with the 14SUV, and am very happy. I dealt with Laguna when Tim was the SMC rep, and I thought it was a fantastic experience. He was candid, helpful, I felt taken care of, and follow up on a minor issue was prompt and all done on their dime. The machine itself is top notch. I gather Laguna has had some CS challenges since then, but the barometer seems to be indicating that they are now getting back on track. Unlike a lot of others, apparently, my experience with the MM rep so soured me on that company that I will never do business with them.

[Mike Archambeau]

Happy owner of a MM16 here. Does a fine job cutting and is completely trouble free. Easy to setup and use. Seriously powerful and resaws wide boards like a dream.
Would recommend one without hesitation. Have not used the others you mentioned you are considering, so can,t be much help there.

[Van Huskey]

I'm very glad that I asked, because I've gotten superb responses so far. Everyone's input has been extremely helpful.

Van Huskey, you touch on several important issues, one of which was on my mind but which I forgot to pose: the Laguna guides get rave reviews, but I've only used roller bearings. Are they really superior or do other guide types work just as well, and are they worth getting a Laguna for?

Van, out of curiosity, which Asian bandsaw is better designed than the Laguna, in your opinion?

I know that it could be a long and arduous wait for a bandsaw to come up for sale near me. I passed on a MM16 at a great price here about two years ago and really regret it now. But I'd be happy to acquire either a MM, Griggio, or Agazzani and my requirements are hyper-specific. I also don't need, like, 30" of resaw capacity. But I would like this to be my last bandsaw for quite awhile, so I want it to be very well made and to be capable of executing well a range of bandsaw tasks. For that reason I have been concerned about buying Chinese and have preferred idea of the Italian saws.


I like the Laguna guides very much, they are easy to set, work very well with a wide variety of blade widths and the biggest key is how much support they give the blade and how close the last support is to the work. Laguna offers their guides for a wide variety of saws SO if one likes the guides they can add them to whatever saw they get, makes more sense if you buy another saw used though.

The Asian saw that I really like is the PM1800. I have spent some time setting one up and cutting with it and it is a pleasure to use. OK it isn't the perfect saw in my mind but nobody makes that. The details are what really get you. So many things have been so well thought out, from the guides to the table tilt etc etc. The problem with the Powermatic is price, it is priced (even street price) at or above the 18" Italian saws. If it "streeted" 500-700 below the price of an Italian 18" saw I think it would be something to consider. I think the small market and thus economy of scale killed them, where as ACM and Centauro make HUGE lines of bandsaws sold all over the world with a considerable reputation, the PM1800 is a one off proprietary saw.

My guess is you meant "NOT hyper-specific"? I think the 20" saw is the perfect balance for a well equipped hobby shop and I really love my MM20, got a good deal on a 3 year old absolutely perfect one but I did have to drive 350 miles to collect it. I will say if you do a lot of bandsaw cutting with the table tilted I would lean away from the MM line as they don't have a traditional centered trunnion. Low angle stuff like bowl blanks and some dovetails are a non-issue but high angle cuts will require you to make additional blade inserts. I suppose it isn't a big issue but it can be annoying, that said since you plan to buy used I wouldn't avoid the MMs just for that if I could save a chunk of money.

One last thing about the LT14 SUV, I don't think you have a Rockler close to you and I don't know how far you are from one of the Woodcrafts that stock the Laguna (Philly, Wilmington and Roanoke do) but if you ahve a chance to see one I tell everyone to do this. Go in and look at every 14" saw they have on the floor that is not a Laguna, pay special attention to the size of the wheel bearings but look they over good. The go over to the SUV and open the upper door and look at the wheel bearing, the wheel and the tensioning/tracking mechanism. That will give you a good understanding about how well designed the SUV is. In my opinion it is the best designed and best built 14" saw on the US market, but it doesn't have any Italian competition.

[Van Huskey]

I dealt with Laguna when Tim was the SMC rep, and I thought it was a fantastic experience. He was candid, helpful, I felt taken care of, and follow up on a minor issue was prompt and all done on their dime.

BTW Tim is back. I think he left just so he didn't have to listen to me talk bandsaws ad naseum at IWF then he came back.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I would comment that MM is no longer owned by the same company they were when all those glowing threads were written.
Edit: I meant to add that you never hear anyone complain about Aggazanni. And Eagle tools always get Kudos for customer service.

Todd,

I saw this statement and wrote an email Mini-Max. I got a reply from Michael Kahn, Product Manager for MiniMaxUSA. IIRC..he sold me my MM-16. He stated Mini-Max is and has been since the '70s a division of SCM. There has been no change in ownership. He did indicate for economic reasons they moved their headquarters first from Atlanta, GA to Austin, TX and back to Atlanta but it was strictly for economic reasons.

On another note, one of the reasons I don't have an Agazzani in my shop is because at the time I was buying, I was in the market for a bandsaw and a lathe. I thought Eagle could satisfy both and maybe I could get a discount for buying both at the same time. I called and was told they were busy and they would call me back the next day. It didn't happen. A few days later Woodcraft got the order for the PM3520B and Michael Kahn got my order for an MM-16. Eagle has an excellent reputation for great customer service but I had an abnormal experience with them.

In researching bandsaws I had the top line Laguna, Mini-Max and Agazzani in mind. I traded emails with Mark Duginski and he stated I couldn't go wrong with any of the Italian made bandsaws.

[Van Huskey]

Todd,

He stated Mini-Max is and has been since the '70s a division of SCM.


Huh, even longer than I thought.

I know you didn't mean it as a bash against Jesse and Eagle just stating the facts. I would say though Jesse seems to be a busy guy and also seems to deal with customers quicker than potential ones, which is better than a company that gets your money and forgets your name! Once you get him on the phone he is extremely helpful. The thing I always say is they need to get a solid website up. Even if the only info they have is on the Agazzani line. I am pretty sure they could sell more saws if they did, we have gotten pretty used to having information at our fingertips. That said both the Laguna and Minimax site leave something to be desired in their depth of info and specs but at least you can get basic specs and list prices at the speed of light.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Van,

I just wanted people to know that even companies known for excellent customer service can have an occasional bad experience. That's all. I have recommended both the Agazzani products and Eagle.

It's important for people to know even the good ones ....sometimes have problems. That is why I indicated I had an "abnormal" experience.


and you are right....the web page could use some real work. I think it's worse now than it was a few years ago.

[Van Huskey]

I was pretty sure what you meant, I just didn't want to sound like I was fighting back on Jesse's account, I just wanted people to know that they may have to be a little pro-active getting the initial dialogue started because the Agazzani is a really nice saw. If they just had a good site up with prices and specs one could spend the time waiting for the call enjoying bandsaw porn on the internet. The Agazzani is by far the most difficult of the Italian trinity to get info on. At some point when I have a few moments I may upload my Agazzani info, pictures and prices (though any of this could become out of date) so people can refer to them and at least have a starting point.

[William Addison]

I have a MM16 and it's not perfect but it is a good saw. I've needed to contact CS several times and can say they are the worst I've ever encountered.

[Norman Hitt]

[QUOTE=Van Huskey;1645605] I think the 20" saw is the perfect balance for a well equipped hobby shop and I really love my MM20, got a good deal on a 3 year old absolutely perfect one but I did have to drive 350 miles to collect it. I will say if you do a lot of bandsaw cutting with the table tilted I would lean away from the MM line as they don't have a traditional centered trunnion. Low angle stuff like bowl blanks and some dovetails are a non-issue but high angle cuts will require you to make additional blade inserts. I suppose it isn't a big issue but it can be annoying, that said since you plan to buy used I wouldn't avoid the MMs just for that if I could save a chunk of money.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________________________________

Van, I would like to mention that not ALL MM-20's are built like that. I bought mine new on my birthday 7 1/2 yrs ago (Sn 02/1540), IIRC, and that was before the supermax resaw height craze came into effect. (Note: the new MM-24 they had on display DID have the NEW TYPE Table Tilt Mechanism on it). My saw has around 15" or 16" resaw height (again IIRC), the 4.8 hp motor AND the Traditional Type Trunion (which keeps the blade in the center of the hole, requiring NO new/different insert. The resaw height doesn't bother me, because it is slightly larger than what I can mill on my MM FS 350 JP which makes the pair a good match.

I don't remember exactly which year they changed the trunion style OR added additional Resaw height on the MM 20 and other models, but the dates of resaw height/trunion type changes would be a good piece of information you might want to add to your Info notebook as it could be excellent information to pass along to anyone looking for a used saw so they could better fit advertised machines against their own specific needs/wants. I can't think of a better place for that kind of information to be available, since you are Definitely the Best Bandsaw Guru I am aware of.:D I do both appreciate (and envy) your widespread knowledge of such a variety of bandsaws and your willingness to share the information with others. Keep it coming.

PS; It would be interesting also to know when the bandsaws moved up to the 4.8 Hp motors from the smaller ones on earlier machines.

[Russell Sansom]

Jumping in...
I have an MM16, well-ridden by a local tool fanatic, but still showing no appreciable wear.
That isn't helpful to this conversation. However. The fancy power switch went out and I had to order another from MM. The customer service was just this side of schizophrenic! The service people couldn't give me even the slightest guidance in deciding it I needed the switch or just the coil. He said they recommend that the customer buy both. I finally ordered the parts for a breath-taking $150. It took 6 phone calls. Several hang ups by them. A couple transfers that resulted in a dead phone in my hand. As hard as this is to believe, one woman wouldn't connect me with service to ask about my part because I couldn't give her my Serial number ( I couldn't get to the saw just then to read it off ). I called back 45 minutes later and got through to the "technical guy's" voice mail...and on and on like that.
I do love the saw but hope I never have to deal with them again.

[Van Huskey]

Norman, good points! You are correct in pointing out the MM line as well as all the others have changed over the years some in small ways and others in large ways as you noted. I should have been more clear that most of my comments reflected the current saws. You are correct that it would be nice to know the dates of the major changes in the saws, I usually can muddle through when I can see a picture of the saw. In the end it is important to note that the MM and Laguna lines have changed significantly over the years and both lines tend to keep the legacy model designations so just because it has the same model designation it doesn't mean it is the same saw. I know even less about the long term history of Agazzani saws in the US. The one thing that a person can keep in the back of their mind if they have to judge an Italian saw on the spur of the moment is none of the Italian saws in these lines have been dogs, some are better than others but if you find one that has the capacity you require and it is in good shape it will be a good saw, but just because it is a Laguna LT18 doesn't mean it will have ceramic guides and a Baldor motor and just because it says MM20 doesn't mean it has 20" of resaw height (actually it isn't quite a full 20" anyway) and the 4.8hp motor.

[Todd Bin]

I saw several posts which I think are right on. Probably the single biggest thing that stopped me from buying Aggazani was the lack of a good web page where I could research it. Eagle tools definitely needs a better web page. I went with MM because people were bashing the CS at Laguna. I can't remember who said it but Schizophenic definitely describes my experience with MM CS. I had to call them back (becasue they would not follow up with me), would get the run around etc. just like the other poster said. As to my comment about them being owned by a different company, I was given this information from the MM technician. I can't remember who the big conglomorate was that he said bought them. I guess I should not spread rumors but this was info given me from a MM employee.

The only thing I really want to convey is that companies and products change over time. Be careful if you are reading posts from 2006, 2007 or heck even 2009 and basing your buying decision on them.

I also second the comments about the PM1800. Nice saw, just overpriced IMHO. I payed about the same for my MM24 as the PM1800 cost.

~Todd

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Todd......In his email to me, Michael Kahn said it would be easy for someone to mistakenly believe that the company has changed hands as they have moved their headquarters twice as I stated earlier and in 2006 SCM bought another company Delmac and its US branches were allowed to continue operating as previously until recently. Last week SCM announced it was pulling Delmac into the fold to be one company SCM..... which still and has for decades included Mini-Max.

Please don't think I was being critical, I didn't mean it that way. In these harsh economic times I would hate to see any company lose a sale as a result of an unfounded rumor. As I bought a MM-16 4 or 5 years ago, I was curious.

If my memory serves me correctly, Michael Kahn was a sales person and we exchanged emails about my purchasing a MM-16. Later after I made my decision, I responded to an earlier email. He replied that he was now in management but since we initiated the sale, he would work it to closure.

What surprised me is I just went to the Mini-Max website and used the "contact us" button and stated I wanted to validate something and he took the time to respond to me via email. That impressed me.

In the end...I believe everyone should buy large tools based on the tool meeting the needs of the consumer, be within the budget of the consumer, have reasonable reliabilty and the company providing good customer service.

[Todd Bin]

Ken, No worries. I didn't take your comments harshly. In fact, I applaud your follow up with MM to verify if they had not changed hands.

I hope the OP finds all of these posts useful in makeing a decision. It seems buying a bandsaw is one of the hardest decisions. I guess that is because they are all (Italian saws that is) very good -- like trying to decide if you want a Ferrari or Lambo. In fact I wonder if on sports car forums people post "Should I buy a Ferrari or Lambo or ???" They probably also have simlar threads to our Saw Stop threads.

~Todd

Oops, I meant MM had NOT changed hands.

[Mike Tekin]

One last thing about the LT14 SUV, I don't think you have a Rockler close to you and I don't know how far you are from one of the Woodcrafts that stock the Laguna (Philly, Wilmington and Roanoke do) but if you ahve a chance to see one I tell everyone to do this. Go in and look at every 14" saw they have on the floor that is not a Laguna, pay special attention to the size of the wheel bearings but look they over good. The go over to the SUV and open the upper door and look at the wheel bearing, the wheel and the tensioning/tracking mechanism. That will give you a good understanding about how well designed the SUV is. In my opinion it is the best designed and best built 14" saw on the US market, but it doesn't have any Italian competition.

To the OP, Van Husky has this statement dead on!...I have been nit-picking every 14" bandsaw for the last 3 months looking to replace a 14" open stand asian delta (3/4hp) bandsaw - which I sold recently. I compared Shop Fox/Grizzly, the newer General International, Powermatic, Jet, Delta closed stand, Rikon, Laguna SUV (all 14" saws) in person and there is a HUGE difference in my opinion such that the 14" SUV is worth the price difference and well worth the price even though it is an Asian saw. I even considered the 19" Grizzly G0514X2, but they never have them in stock- its not worth my time. I will take the smaller footprint with a better motor, same HP, and more resaw capacity.

Before I made the call to Laguna, I always was doubting them due to their supposed customer services issues in the past, but have been extremely impressed so far.

I am actually working with a fantastic sales guy at Laguna right now.

[Eric McCune]

I purchased a bandsaw from Jesse at Eagle Tools yesterday. All I can say is the guy is a pleasure to work with. He spent over 2 hours with me and in many cases tried to down sell me to fit my needs. The Agazzani's are amazing. Jesse has them in-stock. He fully tunes the saws to ensure they are flawless then packs them in 200 lbs of crating for shipping. I was lucky that I happened to be in LA, so I was able to visit Jesse.

I was really surprised at the size of Eagle Tools. He has 6 agazzani's on display and is willing to demo all of them. He also has the full line of Rikon bandsaws on display. He has a huge selection of Festool, General and Sawstop products on display. Raul is his Festool expert and his knowledge is impressive.

I teased Jesse about his website. He knows it's something that he should resolve. There might be an opportunity for a great web designer to work out a trade :). I really think he's busy enough due to his excellent CS that he just hasn't taken the time to get the website worked out.

[Irvin Crouse]

I have not posted at SawMill Creek before but have looked at the forums alot. Great forum. Love the information. I recently went the agony of purchasing a new bandsaw. Many to choose from. I do own a Laguna 16 HD. It is a great saw. Has the 4.5 hp baldor motor and ceramic guides. It was the classic with a 12 inch resaw capacity. Owned it for a number of years. I have also used a new Laguna LT 18.When I went looking for a new saw I wanted a larger capacity for resawing logs as well as general use. My budget was in the $3500 to $4000 range. I spent alot of time researching saws and comments on the internet and in person.I will try too make this fairly short but wanted to share my thoughts.

I had pretty much decide to purchase a Laguna LT 20 or MM 20 inch. I have seen videos of the Powermatic but found almost no real information or reviews on how it performed any where. I just happened to run across one at a store in another city. I spent a bit of time going over the machine and was very surprised at the engineering, quality and size. They let me cut some boards on the machine and came away very impressed. The features I liked were as follows:

Significantly larger table with very heavy cast iron - outer edge is 1/2 thick - well
machined with t miter slot 24 x 24

Very heavy trunnions with large crank wheel and gearing set on a hugh base. I believe MM has done away with the trunnions. May not matter but I like them.

Tilts 15 degrees left and 45 degrees rt. No tools needed Good for large dovetails
20 inch Laguna and MM have no left tilt not a biggie but nice to have

Heavy box construction with lots of reinforcement in the upper and lower cabinet
No deflection that I could detect by over cranking the tension

Upper guide post very rigid - has crank wheel -works great -with inch scale
The guide post can be set to plum (side to side and front to back Laguna cannot)

Very heavy and well machined wheels also considerablly wider than the Laguna
Wheels are 18 1/2 inches in diameter

Heavy duty and well made Carter style ball bearing guides - mostly tool less
I considered putting ceramic guides on this machine but after using these I
prefer these over the ceramic and european guides. These are very easy to set
and can be used to 1/8 inch blades. They are very wide and work well for
resawing.

Large 5 hp motor. Same physical size as a 5 hp baldor motor and has lots of torque

Lower guides easy to adjust and always close to the table at any angle w/o
adjustment

Very smooth tracking mechanism and quick release which works very well.
Tensioning mechanism very beefy and smooth, very large spring, big crank

Very large rigid fence but no real drift adjustment

Wt. is 800 lbs. It is a very large saw for being an 18 inch one. It is significantly larger
than the Laguna 16 and 18 HD

Resaw capacity is 18 1/2 and throat is 18 1/4 Laguna 18 Lt is 17 inch throat not a big
difference but some.

The real proof for me has been in it's performance. The blade that comes with the saw is not that good. I purchased 5 blades from Laguna ranging from 1/4 to a 1 1/4 inch Resaw King which I have used on my Laguna. The long and short of it is that the Powermatic performs better than my Laguna ever has. The Laguna is a great saw and I am not trying to put it down. It is not totally fair to compare the Powermatic with the Laguna since it is a smaller saw. I was surprised to find out that the Powermatic in my opinion perform better with smaller blades and resawing than the Laguna 16 and 18. There is almost no vibration. It is very quiet, smooth, powerful and amazingly accurate. The larger table is fantastic. In my experience heavier tools on average just run better if they are engineered and built well. The Powermatic is several hundred pounds heavier than most 20 inch models and even heavier than some 24's. Most of the weight is structural and there for a reason. I did seriously consider the MM 20. I was not able to use one so I cannot speak directly about it. I decided not to pursue it given my experience in demoing the Powermatic with the addition features that I preferred (trunnions with crank, large table, Carter Style Bearings, CS good with Powermatic for me. )

I am very satisfied with my choice. Frankly I am still surprised that it performed better that the Laguna since that was the bench mark for me. Laguna makes great tools and I have had good CS. I do own other european machines and like them. I am very particular (sometimes too much so)about the machines that I purchase. I own too many festools and Lie Neilson tools. I also own old refurbished iron (Oliver and Powermatic) which are great too. In the early days the Tiawanese machines were scary. Now days they are very capable of producing excellent machines as I also have a number of them as well. Point being is that really good machine can come from many places. I know some may not agree which is ok and part of any discussion. Not trying to step on toes. Just wanted to pass on my experience with shopping and researching for a new bandsaw. So far this has been the best bandsaw I have ever used and maybe the best one in it's class. Time will tell if that holds. Cost is an issue at many dealers. I did purchase locally - $3680.00 plus sales tax which puts it in the range of the cost of 20 inch saws. Sorry if this was too long. I will try to post some pictures.

[Irvin Crouse]

Some pictures for those interested. Last thought I forgot to mention was how well the guides and their posts were made. They are all keyed and very precise. They work much better than I expected. The thumb knobs are very heavy and have a nice feel. Thanks.

[Hugh MacDonald]

Irvin, that Powermatic does look very nice and beastly. It TOWERS over the Laguna 16. Van Huskey said earlier that it is a very well-made and well-designed saw, though price is an issue. It's certainly more than I want to spend right now on a bandsaw, having recently bought an SCMI sliding-table saw, among other things. The Laguna 16HD, which seems to be a very capable and well-made saw, is also more than I can spend now. That's why it's a matter of getting the Laguna 14SUV now, or waiting (perhaps for a good while) for a MM or Agazzani to come up for sale used.

[Hugh MacDonald]

Does anyone have experience with Felder/Hammer saws and is able to compare them to the saws we've been discussing throughout this thread? Van Huskey? The Hammer N4400 looks very interesting to me. I wouldn't want to exclude a good bandsaw from consideration, just because it isn't Italian.

[Irvin Crouse]

Hugh I am sure you will be very happy with the Laguna. They make great tools.

[Matt Kestenbaum]

Not sure if its in your consideration set, but I just saw the new Hammer N4400 yesterday at the NJ Woodworking show...very nice looking saw. A very beefy welded steel frame with a 4hp motor with 16" throat and 12.5" under the guide (increased in the new model) -- it had machined steel rack/pinion trunnions, cast iron wheels and a very hefty tensioning spring. Perhaps the most interesting feature to me was the overall small footprint and low overall height...not listed in the specs but I guessing under 72". At less that $2K it seemed like a great price.

[Matt Mackinnon]

I too took a look at Laguna's 14SUV. the part that gives me the most concern however is where you say:


I've been using a Grizzly G0555x 14" saw (which I just sold), mainly for resawing but also for general-purpose cutting and curved work.

Curved work and re-sawing are at different ends of the setup. With a resaw, you want a reasonably wide blade that is more rigid Curved work requires a thin blade that is more flexible.


Now I'm considering a Laguna 14" SUV, which features a 3hp motor and 14" of resaw capacity (we'll see), along with the bells and whistles of a larger saw, including brake and rack-and-pinion guide post. All for a pretty good price of $1495. The only issue for me is that this saw is made in China, and after learning my lesson from a few Chinese tools, I'm trying to avoid them.

My concern with the Laguna would be the guide system that it has, This is a great saw for doing re-saw functions as it grips a wide blade and holds it vertical very well. But if you try and put in a small blade for doing re-sawing, then you are asking for trouble. You will need to get the $180 cool block holders and will face the hassle of taking the guides apart when you want to switch from large to small blades.


I had a GO550x that I got rid of because the manufacturing tolerances were way off. Short of spending too much time in re-aligning everything with metal shims and re-fabricating a new blade guide arm, it just didn't seem worth it.

I, like you saw moving to a better built unit as logical.. but I don't see any issue with offshore manufacturing. Lets face it, you buy a TV even if it says made in America, probably has the vast majority of the parts from offshore. So it's one in the same as having the whole thing built there anyway.

I picked up a King 1702C that is the same as a GO513. I got that specifically as it doesn't have the ball bearing roller guides, but the metal Euro-style roller discs. Those are easily removed and a set of phenolic 'cool block' inserts put in. This allows me to run a 3/16" blade for doing curve work.

I also got a King 1702FX that is the same as the GO513X2 as that has the cast iron wheels. I can live with the ball bearing rolller guides as I use this bandsaw exclusively with a Laguna Resaw King blade. Two bandsaws set up to do the intended job they were designated to do. Two bandsaws for about the same price that you pay for a single Laguna.

You need to realize why you are having trouble with re-sawing and then set up a bandsaw to do that job. I had trouble with re-sawing until it was properly explained to me why I was hiving trouble and how to fix it. When you get blade drift, it caused by 2 things. You must remember that your blade is under tension between two wheels. it is impossible for the blade to twist by itself. The bandsaw blade has it's teeth skewed to either side at the front. This is refereed to as the set. This is wider than the thickness of the blade, so when you cut, the back of the blade never touches the wood. If the feed of the wood is parallel to the bandsaw blade then you will never have a problem.

If you twist the wood or trap your off-cut piece then you will get blade drift.

1. the back of your blade will get knocked, and cause the blade to twist towards the side that is hit. This in-turn will cause the set on that side of the blade to ware out faster and become more blunt.

2. At the same time, it causes the back of the blade to heat up with friction, and then the blade will warp

A blade that has uneven set and is warped will never cut straight again. So once you destroy a blade, you will have a hard time re-sawing with it. No matter how well the bandsaw is setup.

I started to use the Laguna Rip King as it has carbide welded onto the front. As such is now has a kerf rather than a set. It's a lot harder to ware out a carbide on one side than it is to remove your set.

Next, instead of using a guide fence, I removed mine and built an auxiliary table and a sled to hold my wood. The sled rides along a 4' miter track that is cut into the aux table. As the wood can't move side to side, then it doesn't hit the back of the blade. I have cut down to 1/32" thick veneers with my Offshore bandsaw without any problems. My less than 2hp motor has cut through 12" bloodwood without any issues. I've also cut 6" Brazilian Ebony too. It all comes down to setup.

You don't need a European assembled bandsaw to cut veneer slices, just a properly assembled bandsaw that is setup correctly.

Matt.

[Van Huskey]

Does anyone have experience with Felder/Hammer saws and is able to compare them to the saws we've been discussing throughout this thread? Van Huskey? The Hammer N4400 looks very interesting to me. I wouldn't want to exclude a good bandsaw from consideration, just because it isn't Italian.

The N4400 is an excellent saw particularly after the redesign. I don't know what the negotiated and delivered price would be but at the $2195 retail it is probably my favorite saw I have seen in that price range. Prior to the redesign it lacked some things I wanted in a "high end" bandsaw now that is all covered. One thing to note is in Europe bandsaws can not be sold with tables that tilt over 22.5 degrees, there is a small limit rod that can be removed and it will tilt a full 45 degrees (I think they still ship with it to the US and Canada but not sure). Definitely a saw to look at if you budget falls in the 2,000 range.

[Hugh MacDonald]

Matt, thanks very much for that. I was primarily considering the Italian saws, but thought I'd check out the Fedler and Hammer lineup and the Hammer looked right up my alley and also very capable from the specs and the videos they have. As others here have noted, Eagle/Agazzani could really benefit from info like that on their Web site. Whether or not the videos reflect the true quality and capability of the machine, they go a long way toward whetting the appetite. I'm glad to hear it from someone who saw the machine in person.

[Hugh MacDonald]

Thanks again, Van. I checked it out over the weekend on the Hammer Web site and for its size and price it would be just what I'm looking for. I noticed that it only tilts 22.5° but in their marketing video they cleverly show bevel cuts being performed with a jig, which might be a better way to do it anyway. Good to know that you regard it highly.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hugh, the North American model N4400 tilts to 45 degrees.......And it's a very nice saw with an attractive price.........Rod.

[Van Huskey]

Hugh, the North American model N4400 tilts to 45 degrees.......And it's a very nice saw with an attractive price.........Rod.

Though I have not confirmed it (maybe a trip to Wilmington is in order, I need SOME excuse) my understanding from Felder is that the "limit rod" is still there when shipped to NA but it is easily removed. In any event table tilt on the N4400 is a non-issue.

[Van Huskey]

Curved work and re-sawing are at different ends of the setup. With a resaw, you want a reasonably wide blade that is more rigid Curved work requires a thin blade that is more flexible. ... My concern with the Laguna would be the guide system that it has, This is a great saw for doing re-saw functions as it grips a wide blade and holds it vertical very well. But if you try and put in a small blade for doing re-sawing, then you are asking for trouble. You will need to get the $180 cool block holders and will face the hassle of taking the guides apart when you want to switch from large to small blades.

Flexibility of a narrow blade is not required for curve cutting in fact with a few exceptions it is best if the blade is still perfectly rigid. The set just needs to be wide enough to open a kerf that the rigid blade can turn in, this is the way bandsaws with all the conventional types of guides address curve cutting, with this approach you actually want the blade to be rigid. The blade is never perfectly rigid but the guides that do the best job are the ones that support the blade the best and do it the closest to the work, the Laguna guides do this as well or better than any guide system. The Laguna guides will work fine down to at least 1/4" BUT the key is ones ability to set them up. Any "hard" guide (any bearing guide, ceramic guide or solid steel guide) can not be allowed to touch the teeth in use. The narrow blades lower beam strength allows it to move more and thus more likely to be pushed into the guides. Phenolic and wooden guides don't ruin the blades set when they touch the teeth so it makes setup easier and use less likely to cause problems. My solution would not be the $155 Laguna Cool Block kit but a Carter Stabilizer for very narrow blades which an individual may or may not use. The Stabilizer will perform better than "soft" solid guides in all but a tiny fraction of cuts, for example if you cut dovetails on the BS with a 1/8" blade then you may want to revisit guides. In other words for the rare times you are trying to cut straight lines with a narrow blade the Stabilizer is not the best guide. The root problem is no guide system works perfectly for wide and narrow blades, the transition from the saws normal guides to the Stabilizer is not a big deal.





I, like you saw moving to a better built unit as logical.. but I don't see any issue with offshore manufacturing. Lets face it, you buy a TV even if it says made in America, probably has the vast majority of the parts from offshore. So it's one in the same as having the whole thing built there anyway.

If you are referring to the LT14 SUV it is completely built in Asia, but the Italian ACM built saws are built from European parts.

You also advocate the multiple bandsaw approach which I highly recommend but it is a convenience factor. You are also correct when you say you do not need an Italian saw to resaw and resaw well. However, most of the Italian built saws have advantages over most of the Asian saws when it comes to being overbuilt and manufacturing tolerances. One other thing buying an Italian saw has as an advantage is the lower chance of having issues like you did with the 555. The very salient point you made is that one needs to decide what they want to use the bandsaw for and make a plan regarding the guide issues before buying. In regards to the LT14 SUV and curve cutting I think guides are not really that much of an issue, it just has to be worked out, probably the biggest issue with the SUV and contour cutting is the table height...

[dirk martin]

For what it's worth, I own both a 24" MiniMax, and a 24" Grizzly.
I've had no problems with the Grizzly.
I'm on my 3rd or 4th switch, on the MM.

I resaw almost exclusively on both.
The MM is an excellnt saw, but if I had to do over again, I'd buy two Grizzly's, and save some money.
The Grizzly has performed flawlessly for me.

[Van Huskey]

For what it's worth, I own both a 24" MiniMax, and a 24" Grizzly.
I've had no problems with the Grizzly.
I'm on my 3rd or 4th switch, on the MM.

I resaw almost exclusively on both.
The MM is an excellnt saw, but if I had to do over again, I'd buy two Grizzly's, and save some money.
The Grizzly has performed flawlessly for me.

The Grizzly is a solid "traditional" bandsaw but has nowhere near the resaw capacity or basic beef of the current MM24. If it is an older MM24 (which it may be if you had switch issues, was a problem with some Minimax's but mainly the MM16) the two certainly are very similar in capacity. If one is looking at a "traditional" 24" saw and not a 24" vertical "resaw" the Agazzani is possibly the best buy and priced surprisingly close to the Grizzly.

[John Beaver]

My $.02 on bandsaw's

I purchased a Grizzly G0636x. 16+ resaw capability and 5 hp motor for a little over $2000. My father has a Laguna 16 and while it's a nice machine I prefer the Grizzly. It has a larger table, weighs a lot more and has power to spare. It was aligned perfectly out of the box. They are all nice choices, but I think the Grizzly is worth a look. I'm very pleased with mine.

[dirk martin]

Every now and then, people like to say that the Grizzly isn't in the same ballpark as the MiniMax's.

The weight difference is 50 pounds....not a big deal.
I've resawed on both, all day long, and never saw how that 50 pounds was helping me on the MM.

But I tell you what, with the Griz at $2,969 and the MM at $4,695, that must be some pretty expensive metal in that minimax. I think Grizzly is clearly showing that some of these other folks are way over priced on their bandsaws.

Now, the 24" Grizzly has a 16" resaw limit....and if you need more than that, then Griz is not in the picture. BTW, I find it interesting that the MM24 has the highest resaw capacity of all of Minimax's saws...and I think they have 3 larger beasts. I may be wrong on that stat...but I think it's right.

Oh, and I love the quick blade tension release on the Grizz. I wish the MM had that.

[Van Huskey]

My $.02 on bandsaw's

I purchased a Grizzly G0636x. 16+ resaw capability and 5 hp motor for a little over $2000. My father has a Laguna 16 and while it's a nice machine I prefer the Grizzly. It has a larger table, weighs a lot more and has power to spare. It was aligned perfectly out of the box. They are all nice choices, but I think the Grizzly is worth a look. I'm very pleased with mine.

The 636X is indeed a nice saw and well priced, as a resaw bandsaw I think it is the equal of the 16" Italian saws in many ways and is about $400 cheaper delivered (street prices). The thing I do not like about it as a contour cutting bandsaw is how far the lower guide is from the work. But, worth a look none the less.

[Van Huskey]

Every now and then, people like to say that the Grizzly isn't in the same ballpark as the MiniMax's.

The weight difference is 50 pounds....not a big deal.
I've resawed on both, all day long, and never saw how that 50 pounds was helping me on the MM.

But I tell you what, with the Griz at $2,969 and the MM at $4,695, that must be some pretty expensive metal in that minimax. I think Grizzly is clearly showing that some of these other folks are way over priced on their bandsaws.

Now, the 24" Grizzly has a 16" resaw limit....and if you need more than that, then Griz is not in the picture. BTW, I find it interesting that the MM24 has the highest resaw capacity of all of Minimax's saws...and I think they have 3 larger beasts. I may be wrong on that stat...but I think it's right.

Oh, and I love the quick blade tension release on the Grizz. I wish the MM had that.


They are not in the same ballpark, I will say it every day and twice on Sunday. The Grizzly is a traditional bandsaw and the MM24 is a modern vertical "resaw" bandsaw. It carries 170 extra pounds, most of it in the frame to increase deflection resistance to allow its 50% increase over the Grizzly in resaw height, that takes a considerably more substantial saw. If you never use the capacity of the Minimax you won't see the benefit of the extra weight or the extra cost. The MM24 is significantly more expensive but just like comparing a F150 to an F350 pickup if you never need to exceed the capacity of the F150 then the F350 looks overpriced, if you need to resaw a 23" board the Grizzly could cost $500.00 and still be poor value because it can not do the job. Grizzly doesn't have anything in the class of the MM24, the closest Italian saw to the G0568/569 is the Agazzani B-24 which is VERY similar in capacity and costs (street price) about $200-300 more. The bottom line is if someone doesn't need the capacity of the MM24 then it makes sense to look at more reasonably priced options such as the G0568 but if they do need the capacity Grizzly as a company is off the list and Felder, Minimax, Agazzani, Laguna and a select few others are on.

[dirk martin]

I fully agree with Van Huskey.
It really gets down to resaw height.
If the Grizzly has enough resaw height, then why pay for more.

[Mike Daugherty]

I have been reading the comments posted about the new bandsaws. I just wanted to mention that it might be worth your time to check out the new Felder bandsaws. Felder has two models that I believe have some great features. The very affordable Hammer N4400 has a 12" resaw capacity and the Felder FB600, which weighs in at 726 lbs., has a 15 3/4" resaw capacity. I looked at every European made bandsaw I could find. I was most interested in the Laguna and the Agazzanni to start with. I spoke with owners of both and then spoke with Felder owners. Although the Laguna and Agazzanni owners seemed pleased, I found that the Felder owners were excited. The Service and support from Felder USA in Delaware is superb in every owners opinion. I am an existing owner of a Felder combination slider saw/shaper and have now ordered a FB600 bandsaw. The Felder machine I have now is without question one of the finest machine made and I am sure that the Bandsaw is as well. I believe if you look at the Felder bandsaws, you also will find superior quality at very competitive prices. I had looked at the Felder FB600 in Atlanta at the IWF and was thoroughly impressed with how well it is made.

Mike Daugherty

[Russ Apple]

I have to agree with Mike Daugherty. FELDER equipment is frequently overlooked or casually dismissed as automatically unaffordable.

Several years ago, I actually worked for the Felder USA company. Being a displaced mechanical engineer, I was so impressed by their very conservative and understated engineering that I made a wholesale career change, determined to acquire at least one of these beauties. Years later, when life events moved me onward, I did manage to snatch a sweet little gem of a bandsaw, the HAMMER N4400. All the noise out there about whose bandsaw is better, constantly comparing specs, reminds me of my other hobby, motorcycles. While specifications do matter (I am still an engineer after all), it's taking a ride that counts.

My choice of the many excellent bandsaws was made simple some years ago, back when I was still working for FELDER, manning the HAMMER booth at the New Jersey WW expo. I was privileged to assist the legendary Frank Klausz while he showed off the capabilities of the HAMMER line. I learned more from the master in that one afternoon than I had in years. Mr. Klausz showed me how to really, properly set up a bandsaw. Using the N4400, he started slicing smooth and even, paper-thin sheets, 10-12 inches wide, (by the dozens as handouts) of cherry, walnut, and maple to use as veneers. He would hold them up to the light showing me what to look for. Privately, even he was truly surprised at this humble bandsaw. I realised that this machine had really proven to be more than capable for my needs and abilities. My skills (and my back) were my real limitations. Being able to resaw a 12" log is more than sufficient for me (If you have ever tried lifting a 3 foot long, 12 inch log of some hardwood you know what I mean).

Holding up his freshly cut veneer sheet, one could see through it and just make out the letters on the HAMMER flyer underneath. Frank gestured at the sea of the latest equipment out on the expo floor and grinning he said to me, "A poor craftsman always blames his tools... Come on, what more do you want from this machine?"

Here's my little N4400 gem. Using a simple home-brewed jig and an old blade, I developed a technique to reproduce a sawmill's rough-sawn finish (with no banding) for the wife's outdoor projects. -Russ Apple

[Mike Daugherty]

Great looking jig Russ. When I get my new FB600 in maybe you can come show me some tricks on what Klausz taught you. Here are some links to Felder's bandsaws. Thought people might be interested.

FB600: http://www.felderusa.com/us-us/products/bandsaws/bandsaw-fb-600.html (http://www.felderusa.com/us-us/products/bandsaws/bandsaw-fb-600.html)
N4400: http://www.hammerusa.com/products_details.php?parent=f664d658ca96a1c8dcd8&xat_code=44599618463c98e71c5e&region=us-us&felder-group=http://www.feldergroupusa.com/products_list.php%3Fsite_id%3D2%26region%3Dus-us%26category%3Df664d658ca96a1c8dcd8 (http://www.hammerusa.com/products_details.php?parent=f664d658ca96a1c8dcd8&xat_code=44599618463c98e71c5e&region=us-us&felder-group=http://www.feldergroupusa.com/products_list.php%3Fsite_id%3D2%26region%3Dus-us%26category%3Df664d658ca96a1c8dcd8)

[Chris Colton]

I am new to this forum and would like to introduce myself. I have been reading threads here for quite some time and have enjoyed all the expert advice given here. What did we do before forums like this existed?

I have been working with wood, very slowly, since I bought my first wooden boat, a 19 ft Lightning sloop, when I was 12. I like to work wood with hand tools but recently realized just how slow I was and decided to buy a jointer/planer last year. I evaluated all of the competition and decided upon the Hammer A3 31 and love it.

So, when it came time to purchase a band saw, after selling my Grizzly 17 inch saw, I looked again at all available band saws in my price range - MM16 was at the top end of this range. When I compared all of the saws, I decided that the Hammer N4400 had everything I wanted: foot brake; 4hp motor; 12 inch resaw capacity; and most importantly, quality build.

I just received it Monday. It took me about 1 hour to unpack it and put it together - very easy. I have cut a few pieces of wood, including re-sawing a piece of 10 inch walnut and found that the cutting action, using the blade supplied by Felder, was very smooth. The N440 passed the nickel test with flying colors; my nickel didn't budge. Onto the dime test?

I don't have a table saw, so the band saw if very important for me. Let me say that, despite my high expectations for this saw, my expectations have been exceeded. So far I love this saw. I took some pictures of the initial set up and plan to write up a review of the saw as I get to know it better. For now, I am one very happy customer.

I forgot to mention, I really like the entire staff at the Wilmington, DE office. They are very knowledgeable, helpful and not pushy at all.

Hope this helps,

Chris

[Jamie Buxton]

For many years, the Hammer/Felder saws were built by ACM, like the larger Laguna saws. They may have had different motors or guides, but were otherwise the same. Are they still ACM-sourced?

[Chris Colton]

I know that some of the Felder saws are still manufactured by ACM, but the New N4400 and the New FB600 are manufactured in-house.

Chris

[Jamie Buxton]

I've just looked at the link Mike provided to the N4400. The web site is kinda funky, so it is difficult to really draw conclusions, but as far as I can see, that saw looks exactly like my ACM-built Laguna LT16HD. The size and shape are the same. The guides are the same. The safety guards are the same. The zero-clearance insert is the same darn piece of plastic. Even the knobs that latch the covers are the same. The geared trunnion isn't like mine, but look identical to the one on the current LT16HD The power switch is different, and the paint job is different.
There's a standard epithet of "Chinese copy"; this one looks like we need a new phrase "Austrian copy". :)

[Dave MacArthur]

I thought the Felder was ACM built, we had a long thread with sources about 7 months ago on it. Joe Jensen has one and loves it, he sold his MM 16" for it. Felder had an introductory pricing on hrmmm... something, can't remember which one, FB600? Somewhere around 19-21" I recall, and it was a great deal, about a year ago--I was almost convinced to pull the trigger.

My brother lives about a block away from Felder HQ in DE, so next time I'm out there visiting I plan on making a pilgrimage there and checking things out!

[Chris Colton]

Hi Dave,

I would definitely recommend a visit to the Felder HQ in DE when you come to town. You are also welcome to visit me, I live about 12 miles away in North Wilmington, and use the two machines I have: N4400 and A3 31.

Chris

[Mike Tekin]

This thread has been very helpful...I am in the same boat - I am looking at the 14SUV from Laguna because its a well made saw for what it is. I then saw the info on the Hammer NB4400. I spoke to a friendly person from the Deleware HQ. This specific model is now built in house in Austria - fact.

They are currently on backorder until sometime in April.

[Aaron Rowland]

I have a very expensive euro Bans saw that gets very good PR. I's not going to mention its name unless pressed. A plus as the price as gone up a lot because of the $ going down. So I assume resale would be good. That's it.

The thing is pure junk. I wondered how the Italians could compete against the Asian's and found out the hard way. The body is 14Ga and flex is awful. The lead screws for tension tilt etc are redi-bolt instead of Acme threads. The post guide is round instead of square and impossible to keep lined up. It also runs in a simple sheet metal hole in the bottom with no bushing . The top is about 1/8" steel with a hole and no bearing.

The undersized 2 HP motor burnt out recently and replacement was quoted a close to $700.00. Wait there is more- the foot brake is so high as to be worthless and doesn't have a motor kill switch. Saws made in Italy use a lot of common parts. Note the totally warped plastic inserts that they are used.. The deck doesn't even have the pin that keeps it from warping.

After I got it I discovered Euro Guides suck and I bought a Carter set up. $160 gulp. These couldn't even help it to cut straight. So it' sits in a corner of my shop while I'm trying to determine what to do. When the chips were down on this the dealer, who has a very good reputation and is a nice guy, tried to upgrade me to a bigger model. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

I'm new on this site and don't know the rules so won't mention names.I even pulled my really harsh comments on some other stuff. When you buy a new bandsaw forget Italy. You are paying way to much money for poor saws. Germany I know nothing. Taiwan is a good bet but you better look very hard at the items I just talked about. Round posts are from the 30's. Square posts can run true and not rotate. I would make the dealer guarantte wheels being round to at least .002 . Make sure the motor is big enough to reach speed in under 2 seconds. Plus a zillion other things. Good luck.

[Dave MacArthur]

Okay Aaron, now you really do need to say what saw this is. Rather than "protecting the guilty" what you're doing is besmirching an entire country based on one bad saw from one company... and you're not even telling us what model/company to let folks draw their own conclusions! Come on now, that's not fair at all-- I can go find a bad product from every country in the world, that doesn't mean all the rest of that country's product is bad! Particularly since you're smearing what is generally recognized as some of the best home-use band saws available (Agazzani, Centauro, ACM, MM and SCM), you're gonna have to post the company and model.

I just had to walk out to my shop and look at my guide post to be sure you weren't saying my saw was a POS ;) I bet thirty other guys will too! It's not only OK to be specific with a poor review of a machine, it's kinda mandatory in that you shouldn't be posting vague and broadly negative comments that could be misinterpreted by readers as against a company, when that company is in fact not "at fault".

Awaiting your update! ;)

[Montgomery Scott]

Aaron's experience is one data point. The composite of all the data points for European saws shows his experience is an anomaly or at best is representative of a single model from a single manufacturer. Most people share positive experiences with their Italian made bandsaws. It is easily justifiable to dismiss anomalous data points.

[Alan Heffernan]

I bought a large bandsaw from Laguna several years ago and I can tell you that then and several years later, their customer service was as poor as I have experienced in my life. I think they are still owned by the same person and I wouldn't buy anything from them even if it was half price.

[Aaron Rowland]

Okay Aaron, now you really do need to say what saw this is. Rather than "protecting the guilty" what you're doing is besmirching an entire country based on one bad saw from one company... and you're not even telling us what model/company to let folks draw their own conclusions! Come on now, that's not fair at all-- I can go find a bad product from every country in the world, that doesn't mean all the rest of that country's product is bad! Particularly since you're smearing what is generally recognized as some of the best home-use band saws available (Agazzani, Centauro, ACM, MM and SCM), you're gonna have to post the company and model.

I just had to walk out to my shop and look at my guide post to be sure you weren't saying my saw was a POS ;) I bet thirty other guys will too! It's not only OK to be specific with a poor review of a machine, it's kinda mandatory in that you shouldn't be posting vague and broadly negative comments that could be misinterpreted by readers as against a company, when that company is in fact not "at fault".

Awaiting your update! ;)
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I'm in a bad situation here. I'm new on the site and don't know the rules but have been told that the monitors will come for you if you do certain things Trying to make a few friends and fewer enemies. If you want trouble insult a mans Tools, wife, ugly kids and ugly dog-. in that order- in a bar- on Sat night!. I see no purpose in naming one specific model in a product line that is over 5 years old. I'm not sure they are still making that particular 18" saw .I mentioned things to watch out for when buying and stand by that advice. Look at the plastic insert on the deck that the blade runs though to start. Its black in color and has several small holes. Rectangular in shape. Does it fit or is the top concave and below the deck surface? Look at the hole it sits in. Is it machined or is it just a rough casting that has no hope of ever matching an insert? That's just for a start but real easy to check. Pull the top wheel. Is the slider a block about 4x 6" made out of common rectangular steel? Mine was and ran on a painted steel surface. When it jammed I was told to grease it. Get out of here. Grease and sawdust are not good. I stripped the paint off and used dry lube. Next look at the back side of the sliding block. Has the tilt rod dug into it? I had to JB weld a piece of hard steel over the dug in portion to solve that hickup. Right now while I wait for a new Baldor motor I have the guide post assembly at a machine shop to add bronze bushings. Does your saw use bronze bushings or to the parts run in a punched hole in sheet metal? Is the tension device run with bearings or does it use Allen head bolts sliding on untempered steel? By now I'm an expert on what not to buy but a bit late. Dues are expensive to this club. These comments apply to all Band saws. Look before you buy. The name of the supplier or maker is not important except for revenge on my part. I'm an Engineer and skilled at design. I think I can save this saw. The 14Ga frame has me scared at bit. I will run a stress test on it after the rebuild is complete. Books by Dave or others do not get into this stuff. Consumer Reports does not take advertising $ and comes close in their tests. In no way believe tests runs in the mags that are supported by full page advertisers. They may or may not tell the whole story.

[Dave MacArthur]

Interesting points to look for, and I thank you for the design specifics--those sort of things from mechanically minded folks like you are really useful for looking at saws. Many of those items wouldn't spring to mind for me, or others I'm sure, so it's a great help. Thanks!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Aaron,

The Moderators at this site won't come for you. What is required however is that members abide by the TOSs that they all agree to when they register. You certainly can name the company and the model number but you also need to back it up with factual data so that if the company involved want's to respond, they can.

While it is important to protect the consumer from being taken advantage of by businesses, it's just as important to protect businesses from people who unfairly want to rant about a product. At SawMillCreek, we are just trying to be fair.

You can complain about products here but it must be backed up with factual information not generalities.

[Chris Colton]

Hi Dave,

next time you visit your brother, please feel free to visit me and I will show you the N4400 and we can run some wood through it.

Chris

[Dave MacArthur]

Thanks for the offer! Sounds like fun, and I'd guess a quick run for me up to Oxford PA to visit Hearne's Hardwoods would be easy too!

[Hugh MacDonald]

Mike, I ended up buying the newly redesigned Hammer N4400. It seemed like a very capable saw at a fair price. Waiting for it to arrive; will no doubt proffer a detailed gloat with pics when it does.

[Dave MacArthur]

Congrats, I'll be interested to read your thoughts after you've used it a bit. Enjoyed the thread and shopping with you!

[dirk martin]

What was the cost, delivered?

[Chris Fournier]

I have been working with a Felder Rep pretty closely lately and during a visit to the showroom we discussed the BS in passing. It is a branded ACM unit according to the Felder Salesman. It looks just like my Italian unit.

[Dave MacArthur]

someone just posted a Felder FB540 on the classifieds here... doh. A day late.

[David Kumm]

I have a laguna lt 18 from about 1999 that I would sell if you are near Wisconsin. Don't mean to use this forum to try to sell but I am a believer in bigger is better to the extent you can fit it in. Laguna saws used to be sourced from acm, just as felder and bridgewood. ACM made a lighter and a heavier version-at least in the 540 and larger saws. The smaller saws have their limitations on resaw height due to rigidity and motor. The older saws were generally in the 12 inch resaw range which is frankly about all an 18 or 20 inch saw can handle regularly. Dave

[Russ Apple]

For those still monitoring this thread, I just wanted to let you know something. It's easy to be suspicious. Last Friday, I received a suspicious email showing an unknown UPS Quantum View tracking number in my name. Neither I nor my wife had ordered anything. She suspected some phishing ploy. The sending source did not appear anywhere. No unauthorized charges had been made so far.

There was a package waiting for me when I got home on Monday. It was a new 1" bandsaw blade from FELDER! I had been a "victim" of a random act of kindness! Apparently someone must have seen my posting to you guys and wanted to say "thanks". Now I will have to find out who sent it. Now whenever I mount this blade I can't help but remember how I got it. Pretty sneaky if you ask me.

I have some cherry logs cowering in the corner. I will let everyone know my thoughts on this blade when I doing some cutting later next month.