Drawer Issues

[Matt Woessner]

Well my first attempt at making drawers has gone ok until now. They are pretty simple not unlike myself. I have constructed them out of hard maple and walnut. The sides are rabbeted and and the bottom is 1/2 birch ply. They have started to twist and now once placed on the slides they are not square and do not line up. Does anyone have any ideas how to make and keep them square? Thanks for the help.

[Lee Schierer]

There are several potential causes for your problem.

1. When making drawers or cabinet parts you want everything as perfectly square and flat as you can get it as you make each piece. Check your saw alignment and do a tune up if needed.

2. You also need to insure your wood is properly dried. Air dried lumber brought indoors needs a month or more to acclimate. If you are preparing rough stock to finished lumber you need to remove equal amounts from each side of the board in several stages, letting them rest several days between thickness reducing stages. If the boards show any signs of movement you need to proceed with caution. A moisture meter can be your friend.

3. Glue up is a key ingredient to to a good drawer. If it isn't assembled and clamped square, it won't turn out square or flat. Check and recheck for squareness and flatness before the glue sets up. Measure your diagonals to insure the drawer is square. Clamp it up on a flat surface.

Unless you are planning to put a lot of weight in the drawer, I find that 1/2" ply is over kill. for drawer bottoms.

[keith micinski]

By twist I am assuming you mean that if you were to place the bottom of the drawer down on a flat surface it would rock corner to corner. If that is the case I would look more at wood movement then cutting practices. I am not really sure how you could cut a drawer so that it would be twisted unless the side members were really long and they weren't face jointed, just run through the planer. I suppose once you put it together there might be enough warpage to actually twist the drawer once put together square.

[keith micinski]

I just re-read Lee's post and saw that he says 1/2 inch is overkill for bottoms. I couldn't disagree with this more. When I first stated building stuff I would use quarter inch ply and there is a reason that particle board furniture comes with 1/4 inch stuff. It's cheap and just barely good enough. The same drawer built with half inch could last a life time. I also like to glue the centers of my bottoms in the rabbet but I don't think most people do this either.

[Matt Woessner]

These drawers that I made the walnut and maple were both dry and square. ( I learned real quick woodworking is hard enough as it is, then you add low grade stock or a piece that is not square nothing really works well). The boxes turned out square once glued and dried. Now they rock on the slides. As far as the 1/2 inch bottom was used this is for a train table for my year old son, and everything I build I engineer to the factor of five. That is I look over and see 5 kids standing on the top, drawer, etc. I like good strong heavy durable furniture.

I am irritated that my nice drawers may look like poo installed.

[glenn bradley]

That is I look over and see 5 kids standing on the top, drawer, etc.

Heh-heh. Well, you know your audience and build accordingly. Good for you. So, what I am hearing is that these drawers were square and laid flat on a known flat surface when they cam out of the clamps? That is some serious wood movement. I have no cure for an assembled drawers that rocks. I have made it a habit (most of the time) to mill my stock over-sized, let it set for a couple days and then mill to final size and assemble. This has led to almost no unexpected movement but, there's always a trouble-making board lurking in the pile somewhere ;-)

[Philip Rodriquez]

I'll jump in and offer some free advice.

You said "...The sides are rabbeted..."

IMHO, this is likely to be your problem. Your joint selection is the weakest one out there because it does not have any mechanical strength. Fortunately, the fix is pretty darn easy. Reinforce the joint by simply drilling some holes in the sides and gluing in some dowel stock. It is called a reinforced rabbet joint.

[James Baker SD]

Did you glue your bottom into the drawer? If yes, maybe the twist is caused by the sides moving some and the bottom remaining stable.

James

[keith micinski]

I originally was thinking these were slides mounted on the side but a slightly twisted box wouldn't affect those so now I assume they are bottom mounted slides. If that is the case why not shim the slide mounted to the cabinet to take the wobble out? Also since you used plywood for the bottoms even if you did glue them in the entire length I would have thought that would have actually stabilized the bottom if anything.

[Chip Lindley]

Matt, the info you give is too sketchy to make a thorough diagnosis. Sounds like a very large drawer if it is also a train table! You say the drawers (more than one) are square after gluing together. Now (they) rock on the slides. Are these bottom- or side-mounted drawer slides?

Perhaps your drawer slides need adjustment or shimming. Perhaps the carcass the drawers fit into is not square! There are many reasons drawers, slides and carcasses do not jive correctly. Perhaps the square you use is not a perfect 90 degrees. A small error adds up over four corners. Pictures would help lots.

[Van Huskey]

. I have made it a habit (most of the time) to mill my stock over-sized, let it set for a couple days and then mill to final size and assemble. This has led to almost no unexpected movement but, there's always a trouble-making board lurking in the pile somewhere ;-)

First, did you do the above? If not that MAY be your problem or at least part of it.

[Dave MacArthur]

Yep, pictures needed. We don't know what joint you really used (rabbeted the sides could be a couple of different things), what slides you used, what reference for square or warped you're using. "Once placed on the slides they are not square"--is that sitting on a known flat surface, or inside the carcass which could be warped?

Also, gluing in drawer bottoms... If I did it, I would glue in the front and let the back float/expand out the rear--this is how most drawers are designed, with the back edge not captured in a dado and the back just dropping down on top of the bottom. Glue in the middle would force the front edge to expand forward and press against the front, causing issues.

[bill schmoott]

Matt, I am sure there are a lot out there that have constructed rabbet drawers and have had great success. However, there I personally would recommend dovetails. This could be the issue. Some photos would help. Did I mention that some photos would help?

[Lee Schierer]

I just re-read Lee's post and saw that he says 1/2 inch is overkill for bottoms. I couldn't disagree with this more. When I first stated building stuff I would use quarter inch ply and there is a reason that particle board furniture comes with 1/4 inch stuff. It's cheap and just barely good enough. The same drawer built with half inch could last a life time. I also like to glue the centers of my bottoms in the rabbet but I don't think most people do this either.

First of all I aqgree that particle board furniture is cheap and cheaply made. I use 1/2" Poplar for my drawer sides, I dovetail all four corners and I enclose the bottom panel on all four sides in a dado cut into the sides. I do not glue them in place. I weigh 230 pounds and I can and have stood on the bottom of my dresser drawers with out the bottom failing. I have never had a drawer bottom fail and some of my pieces are more than 25 years old.

With that said, If the drawer were destined to be used for heavy tools or if the drawer bottm is only supported by three sides, I would problably opt for 3/8" ply. 1/2" is still over kill IMO.

[Tony Bilello]

Did you have to clamp or otherwise force the drawer box into shape when gluing up?
If YES, then the wood is trying to get back to it's original shape.
If NO, then the wood is unstable and warping.

What kind of ply did you use for the bottoms?

Did the plywood come from HD?
If YES, that in itself explains everything.

[Matt Woessner]

Ok going to try and get through all the questions. I milled my stock slightly over size and made a final pass over the jointer. There are not actually slides attached to the drawers themselves. The drawer simply rests on two hardwood pieces in the frame. The plywood bottom is glued in the bottom of the drawer which rests in another rabbet cut.

I tried to posts pics but I don't have a website that I can upload them from. I tried to do a search that would help me but found nothing.

[keith micinski]

When you make a post go down to the middle of the page and you will see a tab for manage attachments. That is where you post pics on this web site and then they will always be there with your post.

[Matt Woessner]

184033184034184035

OK here are some pics.

[Matt Woessner]

Shucks one is slideways. :o

[Philip Rodriquez]

My solution would be:
· Construct a web-frame to trap the drawer and limit the movement. This may pull everything flat… and it may not. If you go this route, you will also need to wax the drawer parts so they will still slide.
o Since you attached false fronts, you should be able to remove them and reattach them, square to the opening. I hope they are not glued on yet!
o Lastly, reinforce the rabbets with dowels.

[Matt Woessner]

Philip,
I thought of doing that basically create a top "slide" for the drawer to force it into place. I also thought even with a wax would a small child be able to open? I think the lesson learned here is that stay away from all wood products found at the BORG.

Question on pinning the rabbets. Would this really help with movement? I have glued them and would not expect them to move. I can understand racking even with ply installed in the bottom, but I would have thought the ply bottom would have halted any movement. I think I will go ahead and proceed with the pinning of the rabbets with dowels it sure can't hurt at this point.

Yeah the false fronts are there to stay, a nice amount of glue several days ago.

The biggest issue is getting them square at this point, which, is after the fact. I hope that I can force them into place with a upper "slide".

Would purchasing a pair of slides and attaching to the drawer and the frame help hold everything square?

The drawers are approx 13" x 24"

[Chris Ricker]

Matt;
Is it possible to use the band saw to separate the fronts from the drawers then joint the faces and reattach them square to the carcass?
Just a thought
CR

[keith micinski]

I don't have much help for the warping at his point other then shim the bottoms flush with the slides to stop the rocking. I would scrap the fronts and cut them off. Then I would make new ones and instead of glueing them on I usually counterbore a hole on each side of the drawer carcass and then use screws to attach the false front. This holds it solid but does leave you the option of making an adjustment later or even changing the fronts out for something else at a later date.

[bill schmoott]

Matt, I just wanted to say good looking table. Everyone on here runs into problems with projects at one time or another. You may never figure out exactly what occurred, but you will most likely avoid that type of construction again.
Honestly here are my thoughts. Scrap the drawers. you have a great looking project and if you do not, it will aggravate you every time you look at it if you try to go ahead and finish. Take the drawers back apart. If you want to re-use the wood, trim the sides cut out the bottom and start over. I know many may look at my post and disagree, but here are my drawer making tips.
Ok,
1. I would never, ever, ever, force a drawer. Cut it, trim it, plane it to size, whatever, but do no force it.
2. I never understood false drawer fronts. Make the front one piece and integrate it with joinery into the sides.
3. I would avoid rabbett joints. Pinning would work, but what would it actually do. The drawers are already out of square. I would personally recommend dovetails on all 4 corners. If your stock is not square, you will know immediately. I have never had a drawer that was dovetailed twist on me.
4. Let the bottom of the drawer float set in all 4 sides of the drawer. I like a heavy drawer bottom. The heavier the better. I use stock used in the project, 3/4 (such as your walnut or sides) or full stock cedar. Why. I dont like putting all that time and effort into a drawer, opening it up and seeing a plywood bottom, but thats just me.

You have a great looking table in the works. Take a deep breath and ask yourself if you want to take a little time to re-do the drawers or walk by it every time and say, man I wish i would have re-done those drawers.

By the way, I think what caused your problem was a combination of joinery technique and gluing the drawer bottom.
Good luck

[Philip Rodriquez]

Pinning the rabbets will not do anything for the wood movement. Pinning them will simply add mechanical strength to the joint. As it stands now, your construction is relying on the strength of the glue bond, which is weakened because the wood fibers are running perpendicular to their mating surfaces.

Personally, if it were my project, I would just remake the drawers. As others have said, you can band saw off the fronts and save the wood. However, I would remake everything else. The cause of the twist was either from the plywood bottom, the moisture content of the wood, or both.

[keith micinski]

A false front gives you a drawer that will always be good and the ability to change the face of the drawer if for some reason down the road you want to go a different way. Also if you don't glue it but instead use screws in an over size hole you have the ability to make adjustments for wood movement and if you get a drawer made out of a piece of wood that goes crazy you could just square the drawer front up and if the actual drawer itself was twisted a little no one would ever know or care. I find the false fronts a little more forgiving when doing flush fit drawers because you are only trying to tune in one piece not 4.