Bench bolts vs M&T joint

[john davey]

OK, I have another question about my soon to begin bench project. My shop is in the basement and My guess is if I build this thing it will never leave the basement unless I can disassemble it. (I hope to move next year). So I was thinking of using bench bolts instead of Mortise and tenons joints.

Background on the bench cut from my other post on leg vise:

For the record my bench will be small. 54" long by 16" wide. It will have a leg vise to the left if facing it. A Veritas inset vise on the right with a row of dog holes. And in the middle a Moxon double screw vise that can be clamped when needed ( probably another vote for the threader). I will also have a large apron on the front and may install a double screw in the apron. That will be an afterthought if I decide I want to sit to cut dovetails.

From that post I have decided on the lee valley screw for the leg vise. Now I am thinking of using the lee valley bench bolts to hold it together.


So long story short are these sturdy enough for planing and chisel chopping and such? I may do away with the apron and just use stretchers top and bottom with the bolts. Not sure if I could bolt an apron in and put a vise in it???

Also if using the bench bolts would i need 2 per end on a 2x6 or would one do it? I am thinking 2 so there can't be a twist???

Another question would be are these bolts usable in softwood? or would I need to use hardwood for the stretchers?

Thanks, John...

[Tom Vanzant]

John, I used one bench bolt and a short M&T at each end of my stretchers. No problems with twisting and the bench can be readily broken down for moving.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I did exactly as Tom. I used a stub tennon 1.5" wide by 3.0" long and 1" deep. The stub tenon gives you a positive location for the stretched so that it can not shift up,down, or sideways on the legs. It also makes it easier to assemble the complete base.

[Prashun Patel]

IMHO, the mass is a bigger issue than the joinery. There are plenty of benches just bolted together that work fine, or can be retightened/supplemented when necessary. At 16", though, you will be mass-challenged.

I saw a great design for a bench that had pockets off the inside of the legs that held paver stones for added mass.

Make the top as thick as is practical for your vise.

[john davey]

Thanks guys, that makes sense :)

[john davey]

I might go out to 20" now on the width. I'm a 265 pounder so I want this thing to be sturdy when I lean into a scrub plane set to cut deep.....

[Andrae Covington]

OK, I have another question about my soon to begin bench project. My shop is in the basement and My guess is if I build this thing it will never leave the basement unless I can disassemble it. (I hope to move next year). So I was thinking of using bench bolts instead of Mortise and tenons joints.

My shop is also in the basement and I don't expect to stay in this house forever, so I designed my bench to be taken apart when necessary. There are some things I would have done differently, but I used tusk tenons on the long stretchers and have been happy with the results. Making half-lap joints and using bolts would have been a lot less work though.

183976


Another question would be are these bolts usable in softwood? or would I need to use hardwood for the stretchers?My bench is tight-grained, old-growth douglas-fir, which might as well be a hardwood except for the tendency to split and dent. However I think the bolts would work fine in contemporary construction lumber. I would consider replacing the washers that come with the LV bench bolts with wider fender washers, to distribute the pressure. You will crush the wood a little tightening them down.

[Russell Sansom]

I've done several benches with drawbored M&T joints and simply left them unglued.
I used large dowels. 5/8 - 7/8". They punch right out. Tenon sturdiness has to be well engineered to take dis- and re-assembly.

[Terry Beadle]

*1 on stub tennons and bolts. I've used this combination for over a decade with no problems with twist or sturdiness. You don't need expensive bolts either but they are nice to have.

I also used dovetailed bridal joints on the two top cross pieces that support the table top. I left the cross pieces 1/8 inch proud and use bolts to secure the top to the base. I sunk the bolts about 1/2 inch below the surface and then turned plugs on the lathe and used them to fill the bolt head holes. Works great.

I've moved the bench one time about 9 years ago and it took less than an hour to tear down and reassemble.

[Chris Friesen]

I would consider replacing the washers that come with the LV bench bolts with wider fender washers, to distribute the pressure. You will crush the wood a little tightening them down.

If you're going to do that, then you may as well just use regular hex bolts and save some money. It just means a little bit of chisel work to make a flat for the washer and nut.

[Chris Griggs]

I'm just wrapping up the build of similar sized bench (66 x 20" top). Mine also needs to be able to be moved at some point. I drawbored the short stretches, but for the long front an back stretchers I cut some stub tenons, routed a groove through the entire back of the stretcher and secured everything with an approximately 5 ft threaded rod that runs through the length of the stretcher.

Was pretty easy and cheaper than bench bolts.The bench isn't complete yet, so I haven't put it to the test, but it seems rock solid.

[Pam Niedermayer]

...I also used dovetailed bridal joints on the two top cross pieces that support the table top. ...

What does a dovetailed bridal joint look like?

Pam

[Stuart Tierney]

I don't know what's available in your neck of the woods, I just bought enough bed bolt hardware to make 2 full benches, cost less than $10.

They're specialist bolts though, used for house construction over here in Japan. 12mm lag bolts with a screw/bolt down plate. Some other bits and pieces to hold down the top. Just a bag of 'stuff'.

I'll be making a portable bench out of 2" beech, and keeping it as simple as possible. So simple, the top will be a pair of 2" x 10" x 4' beech planks. No lamination, just planed true chunks of dead tree. I figure I can run them over the planer/through the thicknesser a few times until they settle down.

My proper bench uses bolts, originally with an eye to tighten them up and/or tear the bench down when needed. I've not needed to tighten or tear it down in the 7 years since I made the monstrosity (3' x 6' doug fir), but the ability is there if I ever need it.

I suppose I'd say yes, use bolts. You never know what's going to happen down the line, and if it's all bolted then you have disassembly options that are more attractive than a chainsaw. ;)


Pam, DT bridle joint has the tongue of the rail a little wider at the tip than the shoulder, and the stile's socket is cut to match. Makes for a bridle joint that doesn't need glue, but your stiles need to be solid otherwise they'll open up and either be loose or the stile will split. I suppose a better way to put it is a through carcass dovetail? Unless it's housed, and then it's not a bridle joint...

(I've never bothered. Anything like that needs tearing down, I'll pin it.)

[Terry Beadle]

Hello Pam,

A dovetailed bridal joint is like this ( if I can describe well ). The cross piece has dove tails on both ends of it. Then in the leg top ends you have a matching dove tail socket for it to fit in but it just slides vertically down into the socket. Really a simple joint but very strong against racking and by leaving the cross piece slightly proud of the dove tailed leg socket, you can control the flatness and levelness of the frame as it mounts the table top.

I used 4 x 6 beams for the legs so by fitting the bridal dove tail ends closely, the table leg frame became very stable. Took a bit of work but a japanese ryobi made short work of the saw cuts and gave great control. Also keep in mind, the dove tailed ends of the cross pieces were not half blind but through dove tails.

[glenn bradley]

Mine's been bolted for years and I have never had to re-tighten anything. I see no problem with it.

[John Coloccia]

The long stretchers on my Sjoberg Elite are bolted on. The top's not attached at all. It just floats, located by a couple of large dowels. The whole thing is stiff as can be.

[David Keller NC]

John - You will need to use M&T joints with bench bolts, as others have noted. The bench bolt is just a method of keeping the tenon in the mortise rather than using glue or pegging. One thing I'll note is that the Veritas bench bolts are a good deal easier to install than hex bolts and nuts. Having said that, you will want to make a little jig out of a scrap block of wood and a couple of dowels as Chris Schwarz described in the Workbenches: From Theory and Design to Construction and Use.

[Chris Vandiver]

Andrae's suggestion to increase the washer size is a good one, though instead of fender washers it would be better to use a bearing plate, maybe a 3/16-1/4 bearing plate with a matching diameter hole for your bolt size. For the end of the bolt that fits in the stretcher, you could cut down the bearing plate to the width necsessary to fit the slot in the stretcher. I'm assuming you're thinking of bolting the bench togther as opposed to "lag" bolting it together.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Hello Pam,

A dovetailed bridal joint is like this ( if I can describe well ). The cross piece has dove tails on both ends of it. Then in the leg top ends you have a matching dove tail socket for it to fit in but it just slides vertically down into the socket. Really a simple joint but very strong against racking and by leaving the cross piece slightly proud of the dove tailed leg socket, you can control the flatness and levelness of the frame as it mounts the table top.

I used 4 x 6 beams for the legs so by fitting the bridal dove tail ends closely, the table leg frame became very stable. Took a bit of work but a japanese ryobi made short work of the saw cuts and gave great control. Also keep in mind, the dove tailed ends of the cross pieces were not half blind but through dove tails.

Thanks, Terry. I think I'd call these dovetails or maybe sliding dovetails; but regardless, I agree you've come up with a very good joining method.

Pam

[Chris Fournier]

I used standard bolts and tab weld nuts to fit my M&T trestle base. Drill the bolt hole and then drill in from the back face of the stretcher to intersect the bolt hole and plop in the tab weld nut and you're ready for the ratchet. Inexpensive and a thousand applications! Michael Fortune's bench featured in Scott Landis' The Work Bench Book used this set up. What? A comprehensive work bench book published long before CS published his definative tome. Uh huh.

http://oemfasteningsystems.thomasnet.com/viewitems/gripco-weld-nuts/tab-weld-nuts

You can get tab weld nuts at many fastener wholesalers etc.