Another "what am I doing wrong" sanding rant......

[Jack Gaskins]

Ok, sorry to post yet another sanding issue. I know there is infinite information on the web about sanding bowls but nothing I have read seems to answer my issue directly or I am just not picking up on it in the posts/articles.

Anyway, I am hand sanding with the lathe on at 250 rpm. I have Vinces power sanding starter kit but I burnt throught the pads in a short time and broke one of the pads off. I know, I know, I was using WAY to much pressure power sanding but I couldnt tell how much pressure to use because my drill is so big and heavy. I am going to try and get one of those crapy angle drills for HF soon. What wood have I been turning? Mostly maple, ambrosia maple and a tiny bit of walnut.

I switched to hand sanding and I am about to pull whats left of my hair out!!!!! I am using 1" wide AO clothed back sanding paper from harbor freight. I have 120,180,240. Everyone says they have the best next thing in sandpaper but I though AO is AO so I got the stuff from HF for $8 a 50 yard roll.

My issue is after I have spent 30 minutes sanding with the 120, using a light touch and moving the paper side to side, and then I move to 180. I can't tell which marks are 120 and which are 180. I stand there looking at the marks and try to figure out how to get those sanding marks out but I just get fed up and move on to 240, 320 and stop at 400. The scratches do get a little thinner but they are still all around the bowl. I have tried to watch my pressure but standing there barely touching the wood still doesnt seem to make a difference in scratch marks.

I guess what I want to ask is at what grit should I not see any sand paper marks? When should the sanding marks be hard to see? Is there a brand of sand paper for hand sanding that I should try besides the crap from HF? Do I need to wet the wood with anything between grits? HELP:confused:.

[Jim Burr]

I felt the same way for a long time Jack. I was using a Rigid 1/2 VS drill and still didin't like the results. On the advice of my mentor, I grabbed a Metabo ROS right angle sander. Have done two pieces with it and am very estatic about the results. But....let the paper do the work!!!! Pressure is great for pressing grapes in to juice, but not for sanding. Keep it up, you get it down in no time!

[Mark Levitski]

Each grit will leave its corresponding scratches. You don't have to identify which are which. Just keep moving up in grit, clean off between grits, and inspect at least between every other grit. You might have to go back a grit size or sand more if you find some lines that aren't coming out as you go up. If you are sanding bowls or facegrain forms, the grain will change direction around your piece and you might have to stop the lathe and either hand or power sand with a different approach to remove certain lines. Remember the flat work sanding rule: sand with the grain. On two side of a bowl, as the end grain passes by if you are sanding with the lathe turning, you are sanding across the grain and this might create some problems that require more attention w/ the lathe off. One other trick is to reverse the lathe for each grit or at least every other one, but this will still not prevent the against-the-grain thing. "We shall endeavor to persevere."

Sanding's great fun ,huh?

[John Keeton]

Jack, there will be many answers to this issue. None of us are there watching what you are doing, and to be honest, every sanding event is a new adventure to some degree. The wood reacts differently depending on species, the moisture content, etc. I don't power sand much anymore except on bowls - and, I don't do many of those. When I power sand, I start at 80 grit, then 120, 180, 220, 280, 320, 400. Most of the time is spent at 80 and 120.

When I had sand, which is most of the time, I start at 150 and spend most of my time there. I go thru 220, 320 and 400, spending less time with each grit. Depending on the species and my intended finish, I will wet sand with the 400 using BLO. My last buff is with 0000. It is important to wipe/blow off the prior grit from the turning before moving up to the next grit.

And, for what it is worth, not all AO sandpaper is alike. There can be a substantial difference in the quality, and therefore the surface.

[Thom Sturgill]

Several points - heat is your enemy - I use a grey pad under the paper - one of those artificial wool pads - it helps keep the heat down. Clean between grits if your paper (or cloth) loses grit and it is on the piece, then it can continue to scratch the piece. So instead of sanding with 180 grit you are still using 120 or whatever. Also watch for build up on the abrasive, it can be harder and courser than the grade of abrasive that you are using. You can also get 'heat shakes' where the heat was too much on the surface of the wood.

With cloth backed abrasives I use mineral spirits, but I don't start with that until about 320 or 400 grit. Above 220 you should NOT see scratches. Sand each level both with the lathe turning and then with it off and sanding parallel to the ways rather than around the piece, finishing with sanding with the grain. Power sanding gives results about one step finer than hand sanding and does not require the protocol I just mentioned as the rotation makes it unnecessary. Many also reverse the rotation every other or every third grade, but i have never felt the need.

[David T gray]

remember to remove all dust in between every grit also buy some better sand paper theres a huge difference between the 120 grit on my cheap sand paper and the disks i use not to mention how much grit cheap sand paper leaves behind.

[Jack Gaskins]

John, at what grit do your sanding marks tend to fade away?

[John Beaver]

I have a couple thoughts. First if you are sanding at 120 for half an hour you should probably go down to 80 and start again. Half an hour is a long time to sand anything Second make sure you are moving the sandpaper so it never stays in the same line of the bowl. Third, I think the jump from 120 to 180 is too big for hand sanding. Try going to 150 after 120 then 180. Feel the sandpaper, there is a significant difference between 120 and 180.

Without seeing your work it's hard to say for sure. Keep trying different things. You will get it eventually.

[John Keeton]

Jack, it depends somewhat on the species. Usually at 320, I see very little in the way of marks. I do use a "raking" light source - a direct light source doesn't help much.

I think the mistake most folks make is not completely sanding the piece with each grit. You need to sand enough to remove all cuts left by the prior grit. That takes progressively less time as you get to the finer grits, but it is still important.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

My $0.02 is to buy good sandpaper. I used some 100 grit for the *mart stores and it probably had some 30 grit rocks on it. No matter what I did, I had those lines. Switching to Indasa Rhynodry was the trick. The paper cost a LITTLE bit more, but last a lot longer and has VERY consistent grits...... I start at 100. There is a big difference between 100 and 120......

For power sanding, I got the cheapest Ryobi drill from the BORG. Yes, take it slow and easy on the pressure. Some sand turbo speed and others sand slowly. Less pressure is the key. You can get those heavy duty velcro strips from the BORG and replace that worn out velcro pad on your sanding pad. They even self stick to the sanding pad.

[Jeff Nicol]

Jack, A lot of it begins at how clean of a cut from the tools you start with, or if the wood is soft or hard and if tearout is an issue. The next big thing is that sandpapers are not created equal, the normal aluminum oxide that most weekend wood workers use is O.K. but will fall apart faster and the grit will fractures and loose its cutting ability pretty fast. The weight of the paper is another thing to take note of and the cloth backed or emery paper types are good for the coarser grits for me, and then some of them in the 320 or finer for wet sanding. With that being said the best papers that I have found are the 3-M purple colored papers. They have ceramic type grit and cut well and stay sharp and won't clog up like some others, and the paper or backing that 3-M uses is second to none. It is a bit more expensive but will last a long time with prpoer use.

So if you are starting with a tight grain wood like the Maples and cherry or black walnut, the sanding marks will be easier to see as there are not a bunch of pores to break up the continuous scratches. Take that into account first and start with a coarse enough grit to get rid of all the tool marks and tear out that may be on the piece. Once that is done do not go up more than 2 grits and make sure that you clean the piece with compressed air in between like others have already stated. Then work your way up through the grits and repeat the process each grit, if you have reverse it will help to take the fibers of the end grain and sand them in the opposite direction that they were cut in the first place. Once I get to 400 grit I will sand the piece in one direction and then take a fairly damp cloth and raise the grain a little and then sand in the opposite direction. This will most times get rid of any stray grained wood that the fibers may still be crushed from cutting, after that If I feel like going finer with the grits I will wet sand with the same type oil I may finish it with or with some mineral spirits, naptha or lacquer thinner. These lubricants will let you see any stray sanding scratches that may have been missed or created by a coarser grit that got picked up in the process. With the oil as a lube it will create a slurry that will fill a lot of the grain, or the finer scratches. You can stop at about 320 if you are not going to put a finish on the piece that will be high gloss or gloss which will magnify any scratches.

There is one other type of paper that some use and that is the type with larger holes in it like what is used on sheetrock joints which does not clog unless you sand wet wood.

I hope that helps with the sanding mess,

Jeff

[tom martin]

I agree with the others that the issue is probably related to cheap sandpaper. Quality sandpaper makes a huge difference-more consistant grit, better backing, and better binder.
As far as the HF close quarter drill, I bought 4 when they went on sale thinking that they would last about the same as the $149.00 sioux (6 months) and three are still in the box two years later!

[David E Keller]

You've gotten some good input thus far. I would encourage you to spend a few bucks on some decent paper... I bought a box of assorted cloth backed end rolls from Klingspor that has lasted me a long time. I noticed a difference immediately when hand sanding compared to the stuff I'd been buying at the big box stores. I generally power sand where possible because it's faster for me, and I get a more consistent result. I bought some discs from Vince on the recommendations here, and I've been very pleased with the consistency. I'll often power sand with finer grits with the lathe off and rotate the piece by hand... especially if I have any troublesome areas. I blow the piece off between grits which also makes a big difference. Sometimes a wipe down with DNA will help with the sanding depending on the particular wood... It's also a great way to find scratches before the finish goes on. Good luck.

[Steve Campbell]

Jack when I power sand I use a 10 dollar cheap drill I picked up at the pawn shop. On the outside of the bowl I use a 5" hook and loop pad and discs that I use on my random orbit sanders. On the inside I use a 2" pad. I still use the same discs as the outside. They just kind of curl over and work very well. The one thing I do is reverse the drill every time I change grits. You can tell right away if you missed any sanding lines from the last grit.
Hope this helps you some.

Steve..............

[Mark Hubl]

I think many have given good advice. I too would recommend better sand paper. There is a big difference in the quality of papers. I buy vinces and was lucky enough to get my hands on a bunch of sia stuff. As with David, many of the folks that I know speak highly of what is available from Klingspor, especially the specials boxes. I think Jeff covered it, but the better I get with sharpening my tools and using them, the better I get at sanding! Some of the lines that you see may not be sanding lines, they may be tool marks. The deep ones really show for me once I have sanded down the lesser ones. I am getting better with my gouges, but I am an advocate of shear scraping and I use it often. Something else that can help is water. Wet up the piece to raise the grain, do it a couple of times. I also use a little alcohol (burbon is my fav) and hit it with the higher grits again. And when all else fails remember, when you are done sanding, start again. Maybe not all the way down, I often go back to 220 and run through 600. Alcohol or MS the piece to see problems and then focus on the problems. Also, stop the lathe, if you are sanding by hand then finish each grit by hand, go with the grain, clean with a rag or air and start the next grit. Everybody develops their own methods and even these have to be modified depending on the punkiness or oiliness of the wood. If sanding was easy, everybody would be a wood worker!

P.S. I also keep one of those big rubber erasers used for cleaning sanding disks and belts right at the lathe when sanding. I think it really helps to keep the paper cutting. Also, another old axiom "Use sandpaper like your neighbor bought it." When its done it is done. As there are many of us that don't go to the grinder often enough, I bet there are even more that hold on to sandpaper like it was a member of the family.

[GLENN THOMAS]

I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents worth also. I've tried all the sanding techniques and never had too much luck with any of them. What worked for me more than anything else was to practice practice and practice my cuts and use really sharp tools. I've been able to get a pretty good surface right off the tool and can usuall start sanding by hand with 150. I just use regular sand paper and sand with the lathe off and with the grain. I don't sand flat work cross grain so I figure I shouldn't do it with bowls either. I'm not saying my way is perfect but it has worked better for me than anything else and the more I practice my cuts the better they look. My recommendation would be to shut the lathe off and just try sanding by hand with the grain, if you do leave scratches they don't show up nearly as bad.

[Don Alexander]

lots of good input here personally i never use anything coarser than 150 grit i do have 1 box of 120 grit for my ROS but that never sees a bowl

i hand sand everything one thing i haven't seen mentioned that helps with sanding scratches is to sand across the grain with the lathe off after sanding with the lathe turning and before changing grits always wiping or blowing the dust off the piece between the lathe on and latehe off portions
light touch with the paper is essential and you actually will spend less time sanding with a light touch than with a heavier touch (also will help keep the heat issue at bay) i hate sanding at least as much as anyone but if you want a quality finish you must do the sanding cutting corners is not going to produce good results and as already mentioned buying better sand paper is more than worthwhile and avoid overusing any one piece
Klingspor's has quality paper at reasonable prices

[Reed Gray]

A couple of things to add here.

First, the idea to reduce sanding time is to perfect your turning skills so there is less sanding to do. Let's face it, some days are better than others. If I can start at 120, that is generally preferable to 80 grit because the scratches from 80 grit are some times worse than tool marks. Learning a good gentle shear cut with a scraper or gouge really helps save at least 1 grit. You want to see little whispy spider web shavings floating in the air.

Your abrasives are cutting tools. On a drill, one of the eraser sticks can clean it up a bit, but rub your fingers on it and if it feels dull, toss it. You can not resharpen it. As Steve Antonucchi on Wood Central said once, "use sandpaper like my 4 year old uses toilet paper!' If you used that one piece of sand paper for 20 minutes, that was at least 18 minutes too long.

Power sanding is more efficient than hand sanding for bowls. You can also vary the direction of your scratch pattern to see if you are getting all of the previous scratches out. Run the drill at half speed, in the 600 rpm range, and use lite pressure, no more than the weight of the drill max. It really cuts better that way. I do wipe out the dust by hand. As you get to the finer grits, if there are scratches, the finer dust will go into the scratches and high light them. You may be able to reglue the hook pad back onto your sanding mandril. Use a rubber cement like Barge Cement. You can buy cheap stuff at most fabric stores.

Have good light and glasses if you need them.

With 80 and 120 grit, you are sanding, and changing the shape a bit, smoothing out bumps and toll marks. With 180 and 220, you are cleaning up things a bit, but only gently rounding over edges. Above 220, and you are only buffing out the sanding marks from the previous grit. Sanding scratches up to the 400 grit range are visible to the human eye. The 000 synthetic steel wool will wipe most of those out. When you get to the 600 and 800 grit range, we can't see them, even with glasses and good light. If you do see some, it is from coarser grits, and you have to go back: "Oh shoot, not again!!!!!"

Sand till you thing you got all the scratches/tool marks out, then hit it again lightly. Get all the marks out before going to the next grit, if you just get almost all of it, it will never go away.

The Norton 3X is a good hand sand paper, and you can buy jobber packs of 50 sheets fairly cheaply.

robo hippy

[Wally Dickerman]

When I'm teaching beginners classes I don't allow power sanding. I feel that you need to know how to hand sand first. First, as others have said, buy good sandpaper. it's much more effective and doesn't have the occasional grit that does some damage. It's cheaper in the long run. I suggest Norton 3X. Craft Supplies has it. I don't know how well you are able to prepare the wood with tools, but if you have some tearout, go with 80 grit first. Keep the paper moving and don't apply too much pressure. DO NOT overuse the paper. The saying is..sand like someone else is paying for the paper. Use paper in this order. 80 120 180 220 320 400 600..Do not skip grits. If you get to the finer paper and see deep sanding marks, you just about have to start over. You can't get rid of 80 grit scratches with 220 paper.

Now here's the important part. OIL SAND. for the first grit or two apply oil to the wood first. I use regular finishing oil. You won't believe how quickly and easily you can get a good clean surface by using oil. The paper will clog fast so go to a new piece. Oil sanding is very effective.

Good luck

Wally

[Jack Gaskins]

Thanks to all for the helpfull suggestions. I am betting most of my issue is the sand paper. It is black and when I sand I can see a lot of the sand paper particles so I think they are breaking off the paper in too big a pieces and just making more scratches. I tried to take some photos of a couple of bowls I did last week but due to the finish they are a little hard to see. I work on a bowl tonight and before I apply a finish I will try and take some photos of the scratches.

[Gary Max]

Jack---- from what I see you should of never made it past 220 grit.

[Tim Thiebaut]

Hi Jack, I am in the beginnning learning phase of this vortex of turning, and so far I have come to realize that there is just as much to learn about sanding/finishing as there is about turning wood itself. I still have some issues like this myself, I picked up my right angle drill this morning from HF, now I need to get some sanding disks in and go from there, so far it has been all hand sanding, and sorby bowl sander for me. Good luck to you on getting this right, I will be watching and hopefully learning from this as you are, Tim

[John Keeton]

Jack, I think you need to "start from scratch" (bad pun!!) and get some decent paper. Those scratches are far apart, which would indicate to me that the paper you are using has inconsistent granulation. Good paper will break down the granules - they don't come off, they fracture leaving sharp, but smaller particles. It appears your paper is not breaking down, and has oversize granules.

[Rick Markham]

Jack from your photos, those are sanding marks. I second the +1 on the 3M (upper end 3M stuff) and the Norton papers. I think hand sanding is an art, in itself. Take your time, let the paper do the work, if your fingers hurt or get sore, your using too much pressure. Fresh (good quality) sandpaper is your friend, most people don't realize how much better the real stuff is. (+1 on using sandpaper like a 4 year old uses toilet paper) I guess I am fairly methodical about how I do my sanding, 120, 150, 220, 320, 400, 600, 0000 steel wool. I know the rule is not to move on to the next grit until the scratches from the grit before are gone. I am a firm believer that you sand with one grit until the surface doesn't get any better, that's when your leaving only that grits marks in the piece. (It's a judgement call) everyone has offered you great advice, be patient and get some good paper!

[Jack Gaskins]

Jack---- from what I see you should of never made it past 220 grit.

Hi Gary, Absolutely I should have not made it past 220. After I get done with the 180 I think that the 240 will make the scratches thinner and thinner and eventually they will fade away,,,, BUT NOPE,,,stupid things are still there.

[Jack Gaskins]

I noticed last night that the scrathches in my bowl in the photo above seem to be so close together that it looks like I smugged the finish. One other thing I noticed was that I do not see large scratches mixed in with the thinner scratches so it seems like I am just smearing the finish rather than smoothing it. Probably due to crappy sand paper from HF. I will order buy some nortone 3X next pay day. Anyone know where to get the best price on Norton 3X paper?

[Gary Max]

Jack I do this a little different----if I have scratches that deep, I fire up my Dynabrade 5 inch air sander and sand the whole thing done while it's mounted on the lathe---not running. This gives me the control I want to get rid of the scratchs. I buy all my sand paper from Klingspor.

[John Keeton]

Jack, I have purchased all my sandpaper from these folks - http://www.onlineindustrialsupply.com/abrasive-sheets.html

While they carry the major brands, I have found their USA1 abrasives to be very high quality and the best price I have found. I think I stated this earlier, but they have a very good reputation among flatwork creekers (which is when I first started using them.) I can highly recommend them. They do carry Norton and Mirka, as well.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Jack I also use Norton 3X and Finkat paper that CSUSA also sells. I tried the variety pack and liked it so well I am going to order a supply of it to try.

[Thom Sturgill]

<snip> I am betting most of my issue is the sand paper. It is black and when I sand I can see a lot of the sand paper particles so I think they are breaking off the paper in too big a pieces and just making more scratches.<snip>
Jack, this is exactly why so many have raised the issues of the quality of the paper and cleaning between passes.

[Vince Welch]

Hi Jack,
Sanding can be frustrating but there is no need to pull your hair out buddy!!!! I see that you live in IND. I live just on the other side of the river from Louisville in Jeffersonville. Being that you are retired if you would like... check your schedule, contact me at 1-877-284-8969 and let's plan a day perhaps a Saturday where you can come to my shop and spend some time getting your sanding issues sorted out. I know where we can find some abrasives to use. We well have you posting about your successes in sanding rather than your frustrations in no time!!! This invitation extends to anyone who might want to come over for a demo and lessons. Vince

[Reed Gray]

Jack,
Do take up Vince on his offer. No better way to learn than a hands on visit with a pro. He forgot more about sanding than I will ever learn.

robo hippy

[Vince Welch]

Jack,
Thank you for the pics. While it is hard to see everything we do get a better idea of what you are trying to describe. It looks to me as if you have some deep scratch lines that may be due to uneven grit consistancy in your abrasives and/or they are worn...maybe some of both! For those of us who have been around awhile... remember the days when it was said to run your discs over an edge to knock off the high spots? That is because simple gravity was use to apply the grit! Through the screen and on to the abrasive it went... where the abrasive dropped is where they laid and that was that! Today, that should not be the case because technology has improved the abrasive industry! Technology and computers have helped control consistancy. Today your superior abrasive are electrostatically charged to the abrasive backing! How? They put a negative charge to the abrasive backing to control the grit consistancy!!! What happens is the bigger end of the grit will position towards the backing/bottom and all the abrasive grit stands straight up like footballs. So your grit is much more consistant then the simple gravity method in which much of the abrasive is laying on it side, more is laying partially straight and few are laying straight up. When you purchase abrasives from the HF type of places the abrasives are often inexpensive products. Also, the glue is something other then resin. Many times it is a glue called Urea. Urea is inexpensive and not a good adhesive especially for our application because it is very brittle and the grit seperates from the backing easily because the glue does not flex... etc etc! I could go on but will save it for an article I need to write for the AAW Journal. So if you or any other "Creeker" care to contact me I will be happy to send you some free sample discs so you can try and understand the difference. I think you will be able to tell the difference right away! OK Now I am finished!
Vince

[John Keeton]

Jack, whatever you do, take Vince up on his offer!! Great guy, and very helpful!

And, I should clarify my previous statement on where I purchase sandpaper. I do buy all my sheet sandpaper from onlineindustrialsupply, however, ALL my power sanding discs come from Vince, as well as the other little goodies I use with the discs. I just received a restock order from Vince yesterday, accompanied by a nice note, and some of his new Cera-Max samples!

[Jack Gaskins]

Was looking at the prices of Norton 3X paper and it is quite pricey so I went and looked at Online Industrial Supplies .com and they have a made in America brand for a lot less. Has anyone used sand paper from this place?

[John Keeton]

Jack, there are several threads in the General Woodworking forum on sources, and several flatworkers, including me in my former life, use USA1 from Onlineindustrialsupply. I have ordered from them several times and always get their USA1 brand. It has a very good life and the grit is consistent.

[philip labre]

Norton 3x might be more expensive, but it does cut faster and last longer than others.

[Neil Strong]

I just received a restock order from Vince yesterday, accompanied by a nice note, and some of his new Cera-Max samples!

John, I will be interested in your experience with the Cera~Max. I also recently received a sample pack and am currently giving it a test run, along with various other abrasives from Vince and others. My initial assessment is very positive.
.

[Jack Gaskins]

I went to Rockler and picked up some single sheets of Norton 3X then I went to Woodcraft and they had the 20 sheet boxes on sale for $10 so I picked up a box of the 180. Will have to go back on pay day and get some other grits.