Sawmill Creek At Work

[Joe Angrisani]

Looking at the volume of postings over the weekend and on today's holiday, and I can't help but notice there are far fewer posts whenever it's not a regular workday. I betcha half of the SMC posts are made between "9-to-5", Monday through Friday. To me, it's a vivid example of how much employer's time is wasted by non-work-related web browsing and such. Has anyone else noticed this over time? I'd be curious to know how much "on the clock" time is spent in idle surfing by the average paid American employee.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this??

[Callan Campbell]

Sawmill Creek FUN, WORK, um NOT...................

[Joe Angrisani]

WORK, um, employer is paying you for your time. Not for you to have personal FUN.....

That's my point in case it wasn't crystal clear.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Joe,

Your conclusion is one option. The other option is that people spend holiday and weekends with family or friends and thus less time on the internet.

[John Coloccia]

Actually, my employer used to pay me for my knowledge, experience and results.

Generally speaking, if an employee is underperforming, that should be taken up by a manager that's paying attention. If employees are spending hours a day surfing the net, someone is obviously not paying attention and is setting expectations far too low. Either that or they have brilliant employees that can goof off AND perform at a high level...I don't really see a problem with that.

An open and free work environment is a good work environment. A good work environment contributes to free flowing interchange of ideas. It's a place people want to be. As long as the work is getting done, I don't see it as wasteful at all. It's an investment and just another cost of doing business.

[Brian Tymchak]

I bet you would find a spike in access and posting at lunch time. I browse the creek on my lunch hour while eating my lunch at my desk. I work in IT and don't have a hard work schedule. It's generally ~8:00 to ~ 5:00, but I work until the job is done and that often means I contribute personal time. In reality, I get enough screen time on the computer at work that I have 0 desire to login at home after hours or on the weekends.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I retired on the first day of this month. Often when I posted here during the day, I was either on site waiting for a diagnostic scan of 1 hour or more in length to finish or I had my work caught up and there wasn't anything to do and I was in my home office or my family room posting from my home computer. Often when you saw me posting in the evenings I was on site at a hospital waiting for a 1 hour or longer diagnostic scan to run on an MR scanner or CT scanner and couldn't do anything until those scans are done.

Most businesses....even hospitals today have figured out what their employees are doing and have configured software to limit their employees time on the internet. A lot of employees are unaware that the same employers can and do track time spent on the internet and the websites being visited.

[Dave Wagner]

I see it all the time, people surfing, NON work related. We are allowed, but before work, after work and at lunch. Why take the chance? I see many people texting, playing games, etc.. on their cell phones, they are getting just as bad, since you can do everythign on them and they can't monitor your activities on your phone.....

[Dave Gaul]

I work for a large company (12k+ employees). My boss is a state away. I'm a one-man show with almost no supervision, all of my work gets done way ahead of expectations. I come to SMC a few times a day at work. Usually in the morning, I come in early before a 0800 meeting, I check out the creek while the coffee is brewing. I come on at lunch time. I am salaried, and I work until the job is done. I come on between tasks, kinda like a smoke break... I would be willing to bet I spend less time on break than any smoker does in the work place. My company tracks everything done on the computers. It isn't a problem, unless you become a problem! If you fail to perform, screw up or whatever else, they'll use your net time against you. My company's policy clearly states that personal internet use is ok, as long as it does not interfere with your duties.

If the job is getting done and the person is performing above the expectations of the employer, I see no issue.

Ok, back to work I go!

[Pat Germain]

In my job, I'm often waiting for someone or something so I can do my job. During those times, I ocasionally check SMC. :)

I suppose I could start smoking. Then I'd be hanging out with other smokers on the patio for fifteen minutes of every hour.

[Jim Rimmer]

I bet you would find a spike in access and posting at lunch time. I browse the creek on my lunch hour while eating my lunch at my desk. I work in IT and don't have a hard work schedule. It's generally ~8:00 to ~ 5:00, but I work until the job is done and that often means I contribute personal time. In reality, I get enough screen time on the computer at work that I have 0 desire to login at home after hours or on the weekends.

I eat lunch at my desk and punch up SMC then as I am sure a lot of folks do. Note the times on the responses you received. I don't know if you are self employed or retired but Inoticed the time on your post was 10:48 AM.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jim....today is a holiday for some folks......Presidents Day....my wife's former co-workers are taking her to lunch today to celebrate her retirement....there's no school today......Holiday.

[Dan Hintz]

I run simulations, tests, etc. as I develop code at work... it may be anywhere from 10 seconds to 10 minutes between runs, but it's generally not enough time to do any other real work (else my brain has to shift gears). I log onto the Creek.

[Derek Gilmer]

A lot of it depends on the company, job requirements and work done outside 9 to 5. I work as a programmer/db admin type gig. Sometimes there is little to do for 10 or 30 minutes in a row. Usually that involves waiting on a query to run, customer to respond to questions or on conference calls that don't involve me but I'm required on " just in case". My boss and his leadership have no problem with facebook, youtube or any time wasting in such situations. By the same token when a customer calls at 2 in the morning for an emergency fix I don't get to say "sorry I'm in the office 9 to 5 I'll check then". It is also pretty rare for any of the people in my area to work less than 40 hours a week not counting any administrative stuff or meetings we might have to be at. Maybe it is different because us programmers as a species value flexibility and the chance to do it our way. That also opens up a lot of solutions that a different environment at work may not foster. Heck look at the Apple and Google programmers they have a very sweet setup that would seem lazy...very lazy to someone who does hard/manual work all day. Trust me, I grew up working in construction and through college. But those two companies crank out some of the most interesting and profitable code around.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/compiling.png

[Jim Rimmer]

Jim....today is a holiday for some folks......Presidents Day....my wife's former co-workers are taking her to lunch today to celebrate her retirement....there's no school today......Holiday.
Oops! :o I work for a company that only gives us the traditional holidays - Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, July 4 - so I don't even think about Veterans' Day, MLK Day, and Presidents' Day as being days when some folks are at home.

[Bill Edwards(2)]

Oops! :o I work for a company that only gives us the traditional holidays - Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, July 4 - so I don't even think about Veterans' Day, MLK Day, and Presidents' Day as being days when some folks are at home.

I work for a trucking company, they barely acknowledge the major holidays.

And then they act like it's a communist plot.:rolleyes:

They'll give you time off for a funeral....... if it's your's.:eek:

[Steven DeMars]

What he said . . .

That said . . . I'm a industrial designer . . . I am paid for the problems I solve & the packages I produce . . .

If my employer did not want me to have INTERNET access he would simply turn it off . . . and I would find a new employer . . . then he can start that game all over again with the new guy . .

The days of the grind stone is over dude . . . companies destroyed that "AMERICAN WORK ETHIC" when they destroyed the American Workplace . . . outsourcing, union busting, eliminated pensions, demanding drug, tobacco & in some cases alcohol test, I could go on & on . . . . . .oh wait, I forgot the smokers . . . you know the 4 to 5 fifteen minute breaks everyday . . . then you got the early birders when flex time is available . . . . get there at 6;00, bs with the other early birds, drink coffee, bs some more, than when the normal time people come in they start all over with us . . . hey that's not bad, two hours to bs in the morning and then leave an hour early. hey thanks , I'm changing my schedule this week . . . early birder I will become . .

Maybe everything is as it should be and you just need a better job where you are treated as a professional & not a burger worker . . . I never worked fast food as a kid simply because no one was every going to treat me differently than I would treat others . . . . . . .

My motto is simple, if you can hire someone that can accomplish the task you have given me BETTER, FASTER & CHEAPER . . . HIRE HIM . . .

I'll go to work for your competitor in the morning . . . Just like employers say now days, "LAYING YOU OFF IS NOT PERSONAL, JUST BUSINESS"

Taking my skills to your competitor is "JUST BUSINESS" . . .

I'm sure you will get a lot of answers and comments . . .




Actually, my employer used to pay me for my knowledge, experience and results.

Generally speaking, if an employee is underperforming, that should be taken up by a manager that's paying attention. If employees are spending hours a day surfing the net, someone is obviously not paying attention and is setting expectations far too low. Either that or they have brilliant employees that can goof off AND perform at a high level...I don't really see a problem with that.

An open and free work environment is a good work environment. A good work environment contributes to free flowing interchange of ideas. It's a place people want to be. As long as the work is getting done, I don't see it as wasteful at all. It's an investment and just another cost of doing business.

[Jerome Hanby]

I run simulations, tests, etc. as I develop code at work... it may be anywhere from 10 seconds to 10 minutes between runs, but it's generally not enough time to do any other real work (else my brain has to shift gears). I log onto the Creek.

Same thing here. Plus, there are times I need to let my brain idle for a while when I'm trying to work out something intricate. Like RAH said, trying to force an ideal is a sure fire way to abort it.

[Frank Guerin]

I believe the majority of posters must work the night shift. Thats got to be it.

[Dave Lehnert]

You also have to remember that Sawmill has people from all over the world. What may be work time on the west coast of the USA may be home time on the East coast.
Also a lot of people are unemployed.

[Myk Rian]

I'm retired, and can post any time I want to. :)

[Lee Koepke]

" Either that or they have brilliant employees that can goof off AND perform at a high level...I don't really see a problem with that"

I'd like to think I fall into this category! I get my job done, despite multiple re-directs and interruptions ... yet I still wander to several websites during the day.....

[Phil Thien]

I'm self employed (for almost 25 years) and while I could sit here all day long, I don't. I try to read the site in the mornings and evenings, and keep my nose to the grindstone while I'm at work.

[Callan Campbell]

WORK, um, employer is paying you for your time. Not for you to have personal FUN.....

That's my point in case it wasn't crystal clear. No , I got your point, but you missed my humor. I'm more along the lines of Ken's work experience/post. When I start a download to a vehicles' computer, I'm waiting for upwards of 1/2 hour while I monitor the progress and any possible errors or crashing during the progress. That's when I typically pause and check out the Creek for any interesting posts. Sometimes lunch hour, but usually it's a 5 minute look. That's also why I'm late to the multi-post threads until late in the day when I'm back home.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I just retired on 2/1/2011 but....my profession had me working all kinds of strange hours.......working 30-40 hours in two days wasn't unusual. You change an x-ray tube on a CT scanner and turn the calibration software loose and you can sit there for over an hour without any required response from you. It takes nearly 12 hours of mechanical alignments and calibrations once the tube is physically changed. So to fight sleep, you drink lots of coffee......and fight boredom. Because x-ray exposures are happening, someone with a knowledge of what's taking place needs to be monitoring the machine....so you also get on the internet.

[Joe Angrisani]

Callan.... I did miss your humor. Sorry.

But boy, there sure are a lot of people running simulations or getting their day's work load done first thing in the morning today, now that we are back to a regular workday. ;) There's easily twice as many posts so far this morning (by 9-10am Eastern, 6-7am Pacific) as there was all day yesterday when it was a holiday.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Why should it matter? Are you at work?

[David Weaver]

This thread reminds me of people who worry about how much someone else spends for clothes or a car.

[Joe Angrisani]

It matters in that perhaps that's the reason everything seems to have moved overseas. Too much goofing off by the average American worker and the subsequent loss over time of a work ethic (if anyone denies that average situation, I say you're kidding yourself). I'm retired, Ken. I worked when I was at work, and played when I was not at work. Perhaps that's why I was able to retire at 41. :)

And I'm not "worried", David. Just observing.

Peace, everyone....

[David Weaver]

Quite an assumption to imply that people on SMC.org or any other forum have caused a shifting of jobs offshore. It may assist it actually, in back office issues, but it seems the bulk of jobs that have gone overseas are the ones where nobody has access to the interent.

Just observing never would've elicited a comment.

[Joe Angrisani]

Just worrying wouldn't elicit a comment, either. :)

[Derek Gilmer]

It matters in that perhaps that's the reason everything seems to have moved overseas. Too much goofing off by the average American worker and the subsequent loss over time of a work ethic (if anyone denies that average situation, I say you're kidding yourself). I'm retired, Ken. I worked when I was at work, and played when I was not at work. Perhaps that's why I was able to retire at 41. :)

And I'm not "worried", David. Just observing.

Peace, everyone....

Meh, I think every generation feels the one after it isn't as good. Think of all the folks who worked in giant meat packing houses in chicago before labor laws. The lazy bums after them didn't start rendering cows until they were over 13!

I think the internet helps share the lack of effort that has always been there just hidden better :)

[Brian Tymchak]

I eat lunch at my desk and punch up SMC then as I am sure a lot of folks do. Note the times on the responses you received. I don't know if you are self employed or retired but Inoticed the time on your post was 10:48 AM.

Hmm, interesting. My post time was 12:25 pm (EST) according to the banner I see on top of my original message. I would have said that you are seeing post times relative to your time zone, but I can't quite account for the 23 minute difference...

However, I do occasionally login to SMC off lunch hour, as I might have a lunch time meeting.. But not yesterday.

[Joe Angrisani]

Brian: Your #33 post says 10:25am on my screen in MST.

Derek: Great. Now you made me realize I've turned into my Dad.... :eek:

[Belinda Barfield]

I am part owner in the company, and so self employed. I do a lot of research on the Creek because on the laser engraver's forum so I am on the Creek during work hours. My hours are 6 to whenever I go home, rarely before 3 or 3:30. A lot of my job is waiting for people to return calls, etc. When I'm busy with work, I'm not on the Creek. I do have employees who perform internet searches for unusual materials, parts, etc. I also HAD an employee who was addicted to texting.

[Chen-Tin Tsai]

I think those people that are driven to succeed and strive for excellence will do so regardless of what's on the internet/office gossip/cell phone games/etc. Those that are slackers will probably still be slackers even if they were chained to their desk with their boss standing behind them. The problem is, most managers will focus only on the "output" (ie, how many hours they are staring at a spreadsheet) rather than the "outcome" (ie, how well an employee can use the spreadsheet to find actionable solutions to pressing problems).

My employer employs me to solve problems, not simply enter data into a spreadsheet. How I solve those problems is up to me, which means I can surf the net when I need a break. Besides, the counterpoint is this: why work quickly and efficiently when your reward is only more work? This is the fundamental breakdown in management's objective; instead of focusing on mere outputs, there should be more reward for positive outcomes, and accountability for poor outcomes.

[John Coloccia]

It matters in that perhaps that's the reason everything seems to have moved overseas. Too much goofing off by the average American worker and the subsequent loss over time of a work ethic (if anyone denies that average situation, I say you're kidding yourself). I'm retired, Ken. I worked when I was at work, and played when I was not at work. Perhaps that's why I was able to retire at 41. :)

And I'm not "worried", David. Just observing.

Peace, everyone....

If you're worried about jobs moving overseas, why not start another company and hire some people?

One thing that I have noticed that this generation does is confuse talking about a problem with solving a problem. It's not the "me" generation. It's the "meeting" generation.

[Phil Thien]

I'm retired, Ken. I worked when I was at work, and played when I was not at work. Perhaps that's why I was able to retire at 41. :)


How the heck did you accomplish that? I've been working my your know what off in my own business since 1988, and I don't feel like anywhere near retirement.

[Bryan Morgan]

Its easy for me. I sit there programming routers and managing servers unless I'm on location somewhere physically installing them. Sometimes you have to wait for things to reload. I am usually multi-tasking on top of that. I can't follow more than 3 things or so at a time, especially when programming or calculating some MPLS/BGP configs. So... its easy to keep a few extra tabs open in the browser to come back at from time to time. I usually open up a bunch of interesting threads in separate tabs and when I get a chance to look I'll read one, post a reply or whatever. It could take me all day to go over 5 or 10 posts. I don't take breaks and I usually work through my lunch hour, not to mention all the work I do from home or the 2 am "the server is down waa waa waa" phone calls. The company gets more than their money's worth out of me. I also manage all the internet access so I get to see just how much time everyone is wasting on line. Apparently even with all the time wasted we still make enough money. I've brought it up at meetings and unless it wasts bandwidth (streaming stuff), or something that could get us sued (on screen boobies) nobody seems to care.

[Joe Angrisani]

John.... I did my stint and generated jobs and taxes for the better part of 20 years. Time for someone else to take their turn. But when people complain about jobs gong overseas, all I can see are lazy people from the entitlement generation causing employers to say "Enough!". I saw it in Upstate New York growing up as industry pulled out, and I see it today with nearly everything made overseas, including customer service lines. But I do agree with your 'talking' vs 'solving' comment. Some places sure love meetings.

Phil.... As I said, I worked. I didn't make excuses about how I had free time between other tasks. I used that "free" time to add extra results to each and every day. I guess some people just think, "I need to get this done today and I will finished." I was always of the mindset, "I finished what I planned to get done, now I can add something extra to the day's productivity."

Bryan.... All along I was speaking about averages. There are certainly those who perform above and beyond, as you and others who defended themselves previously do. But the average has deteriorated, and hours and hours and hours are wasted every day by people "on the clock". I'm not talking just SMC. Any forum I've ever browsed shows FAR MORE posts during working hours, with lulls during non-work hours.

[Bill Edwards(2)]

I think what Joe says is true.

Plus I know he's talking about those other people.... not me. http://www.unclebill.us/bigs/snicker.gif

[Dan Hintz]

But when people bitch about jobs gong overseas, all I can see are lazy people from the entitlement generation causing employers to say "Enough!"
My take on it is if you purchase a red car and want to be unique, all you see are red cars on the road.

I can name several people on this board who consider customer service, quality of their work, and support of thier workforce as very high priorities. But it's easy enough to switch gears and find people who think the other way...

[Phil Thien]

Phil.... As I said, I worked. I didn't make excuses about how I had free time between other tasks. I used that "free" time to add extra results to each and every day. I guess some people just think, "I need to get this done today and I will finished." I was always of the mindset, "I finished what I planned to get done, now I can add something extra to the day's productivity."

Why did you retire?

[Joe Angrisani]

Why did you retire?

I have "enough". More is not better, just more. I have enough to enjoy the rest of my days in my jeans-and-t-shirt sorta way, and now I can think about pampering my wife, or setting up my dream shop, or heading off to Utah for a week in the Westfalia, or playing with the dog, or putzing around with the house projects, or going to see family and friends, or helping with a weeks-long sailboat delivery, or putting together a case of $10 bottles at my winesmithy, or finally learning to play my guitar, or wandering the farmer's market and coming up with a knockout bargain dinner, or ___________. The non-work stuff. ;)

[Joe Angrisani]

My take on it is if you purchase a red car and want to be unique, all you see are red cars on the road.

Funny thing is, Dan, that it sounds like you have decided to see only "your" red cars.... :rolleyes:

[Dan Hintz]

Funny thing is, Dan, that it sounds like you have decided to see only "your" red cars.... :rolleyes:
Maybe you failed to read my entire post... I said I could find both types if I looked in the right direction. But if I wanted to bury my head in the sand, I could change my viewpoint to one or the other and see exactly what I expect to see.

[Bill Edwards(2)]

I have "enough". More is not better, just more. I have enough to enjoy the rest of my days in my jeans-and-t-shirt sorta way, and now I can think about pampering my wife, or setting up my dream shop, or heading off to Utah for a week in the Westfalia, or playing with the dog, or putzing around with the house projects, or going to see family and friends, or helping with a weeks-long sailboat delivery, or putting together a case of $10 bottles at my winesmithy, or finally learning to play my guitar, or wandering the farmer's market and coming up with a knockout bargain dinner, or ___________. The non-work stuff. ;)

Wow!:eek:
.
.
.
.
Jeans and t-shirt in Colorado?

Isn't that during the summer, when you have a picnic on that day?

[Derek Gilmer]

I still don't buy the "we are getting lazier and that leads to jobs going over seas" argument as valid. I'd say "we are getting greedier and that leads to jobs going over seas".

When someone can buy an entire screwdriver set from HD for $19.95 that was made in India/China/etc by someone with 0 benefits, getting a few dollars a day, has little quality control needs or quality of life (compared to us) OR a equal or similar quality $25 screwdriver set from HD that was made by a North American worker who has lots fo benefits, making at least $7 an hour and sadly of late seems to have little quality demands from his company the choice most make is going to be the cheaper set. Those numbers are generalizations I know. But that kind of mentality in consumers pushes jobs to where they are the most profitable for a few. I've read a few articles of China beginning to lose some work as it moves to even cheaper areas of manufacture.

And sadly buying American isn't as good a guarantee as it once was. I've gone through 3 "Made in the USA" nail sets in a week. Each one broke on the third light hammer strike. So the corporate greed comes in. "Made in the USA" has become a marketing ploy in some arenas. If you look closely or research it many things are "Made in the USA with some foreign parts" which can boil down to everything being made in a 3rd world country then put in a package here in the US. Or quality is severely comprimised by US made items in order to hit a price point that satisfies consumer trends.

Thankfully there are companies like LN, LV and many others that buck this trend. And continue to show that a craftsman made tool has a place in the world.

So in summary consumer and corporate greed is more a factor than worker drone laziness in jobs moving over seas.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Joe,

Unfortunately your initial premise lacks reinforcement.

The jobs that moved overseas were manufacturing jobs. Most of the folks who perform those types of jobs didn't have access to the internet on the production lines.

More importantly....manufacturing was moved overseas by companies for a multitude of reasons including cheaper labor, lower taxes and fewer environmental regulations to meet...............then you also have to figure in the greed of campanies, company executives and shareholders as other reasons those plants were moved too. The sad part is that none of those involved want to acknowledge or accept their responsibility in the process. They don't look at the oveall effect....they just look at what they perceive is good for themselves.

[Joe Angrisani]

Not only do I concede Derek's and Ken's points, but I agree. I do not have my head in the sand and I do not think it's all one or the other. My "seeing jobs move away as a kid" is certainly not a "posting on internet forums instead of working" point and more a "lack of regulation" one. I never claimed to be the president of the debate club. But we're getting into another discussion, where one side is corporate greed (self explanatory), and the other side is worker greed (sorry, the guy who sweeps the floor doesn't deserve $25/hr). My original post was simply an indirect observation that people waste time at work, and we (collectvely as a society) think it's ok because somehow we (collectively) think that time is ours, not the employer's.

But I do have to say a little about Ken's corporate board- and shareholder-bashing. I find this a lame excuse that is too often tossed into discussions. The average American consumer has decided they want Walmart-y cheap and disposable, with price the one and only driving factor. The masses choose this, then the people who run and own the companies provide what the masses want, then the masses curse them. The consumer has created the situation, not the companies. All the companies do is act on that market. I know. I was a "little guy", and fought the price-only, quality-be-damned mentality all the time at my business. But I never blamed the board rooms.

[Bill Edwards(2)]

Joe,

Unfortunately your initial premise lacks reinforcement.

The jobs that moved overseas were manufacturing jobs. Most of the folks who perform those types of jobs didn't have access to the internet on the production lines.



I disagree.
Thousands of engineering, programming and tech services jobs have gone over seas.
And thousands more just disappeared and if they were resurrected it was out-sourced.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Joe.....

I am not bashing corporate board rooms or shareholders......I am a shareholder and have a lot of money tied up on stocks and bonds..... and I just retired from one of the largest corporations in the world.

But it is still the decisions of all persons.....labor, management, shareholders and yes the consumer that caused what has happened....... and none of them has bellied up to the bar and accepted their portion of the blame....... and there is a certian amount of selfishness on everybody's part that has caused it.

In the end it is a capitalistic society but we have stretched it to an extreme. The different parts of a company....labor , management, shareholders, boardroom...have all become compartmentalized, selfishly looking out of their own interests with little regard to the effect on the overall company or the national economy.

A word you never hear when discussing stock dividends, company profits, corporate executive salaries or employee wages is.... what is reasonable?

The consumer has added to the problem ....what's reasonable?

It is unreasonable to expect a tool that costs 1/10th of the cost of an alternative to have the same quality as the more expensive one. Sorry....it's unreasonable. If it does....Great! But it's an unreasonable to expect it to have the same quality or perform as well.



Bill,

The engineering jobs, programming and tech services jobs were some of the last to go overseas and it was for the same reason....cheaper labor..and people with the desired degrees.......fewer US college students are pursuing engneering degrees........not due to people accessing the internet.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks,

A little friendly reminder. We will allow this discussion to continue only as long as we keep personal attacks out of it and it remains civil.

Personal attacks violate the TOSs.

Thank you.

[Joe Angrisani]

Thank you Ken. It will make no sense to someone reading this thread now that you tastefully removed "John Doe's" posts, but my only wish was to have a little "hanger talk". This will be one of those cases where we agree to disagree, I suppose.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

First,

The TOSs make it perfectly clear that personal or professional attacks are not allowed.

Secondly, I was trying fairly remove those posts that were attacking you and any posts that referred to those attacks become no longer germane.

Sorry if you disagree.

[Steven DeMars]

I do not consider myself as a contributor to the economic downfall this country is seeing . . . I have been working since I was 12.

Steve

[Bill Edwards(2)]

Bill,

The engineering jobs, programming and tech services jobs were some of the last to go overseas and it was for the same reason....cheaper labor..and people with the desired degrees.......fewer US college students are pursuing engneering degrees........not due to people accessing the internet.

You said...

I said...

You said...

It still amounts to a bunch of people here taking exception, like they'd been
accused of something, when regardless of these peoples personal
situations, more and more companies are denying internet access and
cell phone use while people are at work. Especially companies that can't
ship things overseas, i.e. hospitals, trucking companies, etc.

They must see the lost value of not stoping these practices. So you
have to believe that companies who can send it overseas have one more
excuse to do so.

[John Coloccia]

With all due respect, Joe, when I said that our generation likes to talk about problems instead of solving them, I was referring to you. I don't think there's anything wrong with early retirement, and I congratulate you in being able to do it, but it's difficult to take you seriously in regards to our nation's lack of productivity. I used to tell my younger engineers, "You're not in school anymore. Don't come to me with problems. Investigate and come to me with a recommendation, even if that recommendation is to hand it off to someone more experienced to handle it. This isn't amateur hour...you're a pro, now. Act like it." They soon get the picture that things get done by doing something, not by talking about doing something.

So do something. Start up a company, turn off their SMC access if you think that will help, and create some jobs here that won't have to go overseas. It's like voting. If you leave it up to everyone else, don't complain when you don't get what you want.

And as per Ken's last comments, please don't take this as any sort of attack. It's not intended that way. I just don't know how else to say it.

[Derek Gilmer]

I say we find the labor union organizers. The best of the best even. And double their salary if they will go to china, mexico and other "cheaper than should be legal wages" countries and get some very strong unions going. That'd help bring the cost of foreign manufacturing back into line with the rest of the world :)

[Joe Angrisani]

Ken.... I do not disagree. I agree 100%. I just wanted my thank you post to make sense since there was no longer any context. Thank you again.

Steven.... Please don't focus on particulars. I never intended to single out individuals, or even imply I was singling out. I only proposed an observation of the "averages" and any personal attack was never in my mind.

John.... See, everyone? John made his point, and clarified it, without getting rude. In response, I was productive. I made jobs. And I don't suck the teet of society now; rather I have removed myself from the workforce (freeing up a job for someone else), while still paying in via property taxes, taxes on investment earnings, taxes on car registrations and day-to-day purchases, mentoring, and volunteering. And my OP was never specifically about SMC.

[John Coloccia]

What did you do for a living anyway, Joe? For the vast majority of careers out there, buckling down and working until your fingers are raw will not get you to an early retirement at 41.

FWIW, I was an engineer until last August when I finally got fed up and quit. I may go back some day. I doubt it.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

You said...

I said...

You said...

It still amounts to a bunch of people here taking exception, like they'd been
accused of something, when regardless of these peoples personal
situations, more and more companies are denying internet access and
cell phone use while people are at work. Especially companies that can't
ship things overseas, i.e. hospitals, trucking companies, etc.

They must see the lost value of not stoping these practices. So you
have to believe that companies who can send it overseas have one more
excuse to do so.

I don't disgree with that but....

It's important to understand that in my profession, I was on salary plus overtime. There were years when the overtime I worked amounted to 1/3 my total income that year. I got paged out of my oldest son's graduation. Not all jobs are 9-5 in a cubicle. I often could work in a MR suite or CT suite in a hospital and not see another human being for hours or a couple days on end. If I left to get lunch or coffee, maybe see someone....but the point is that my accessing the internet was not effecting my customers or my employer.....that was and is my original argument

[Garrett Ellis]

What did you do for a living anyway, Joe? For the vast majority of careers out there, buckling down and working until your fingers are raw will not get you to an early retirement at 41.

FWIW, I was an engineer until last August when I finally got fed up and quit. I may go back some day. I doubt it.

I am curious about this too... I must be in the wrong career!

[Bill Edwards(2)]

I don't disgree with that but....

It's important to understand that in my profession, I was on salary plus overtime. There were years when I the overtime I worked amounted to 1/3 my total income that year. I got paged out of my oldest son's graduation. Not all jobs are 9-5 in a cubicle. I often could work in a MR suite or CT suite in a hospital and not see another human being for hours or a couple days on end. If I left to get lunch or coffee, maybe see someone....but the point is that my accessing the internet was not effecting my customers or my employer.....that was and is my original argument

But Ken, you keep talking about your experiences. You know the real world.
It usually doesn't have a lot to do with fair. People lose jobs because they complained
one too many times. Companies make "policy" on a whim. The guy in IT doesn't like you
and starts watching your activity, next thing you know... "Where's my resume?"
And your departure causes the company to re-address their policies.

Just sayin'

[Bill Edwards(2)]

I am curious about this too... I must be in the wrong career!

C'mon guys, think outside the box (I hate that expression)

I'll have to be scarped off this keyboard someday, but my BIL who does a little
better then me will retire young and well off because my sister invested well. :o

[Joe Angrisani]

John and Garrett.... I was a lowly mechanic. I ran my own Porsche-Audi repair shop for the better part of 20 years. Took a chance when I was young and could afford to lose it all, and it worked out. Saving 50% of everything I've made since I was 16 helped, too, but 12 and 16 hour days through the years didn't hurt. Learning how to invest my savings myself to MY best advantage was a major factor, too. I guess I had two secrets: 1) It's not what you make, it's what you want [as I like to say, "make more", or "want less"]. And 2) It's not what you make, but how you grow your savings.

[Bryan Morgan]

Bryan.... All along I was speaking about averages. There are certainly those who perform above and beyond, as you and others who defended themselves previously do. But the average has deteriorated, and hours and hours and hours are wasted every day by people "on the clock". I'm not talking just SMC. Any forum I've ever browsed shows FAR MORE posts during working hours, with lulls during non-work hours.

Keep in mind time zone differences, people on lunch or break, taking the day off, etc... They may not be posting when you think they are posting.

[Belinda Barfield]

John, I have to admit this thread has made me look at how I work differently now than in the past. At one point I worked from home as a subcontractor doing medical transcription. I was paid purely on production, by lines of type. It was not unusual for me to churn out 2000 to 2500 lines of type per day. I think my best year I topped out at $42,500. I worked as if I was in an office based setting from 8 to 5 or 5:30 as hard as I could go most days, no web surfing, no e-mail chats, etc. Now, I frequently find myself with time on my hands at work and that's when I hit the Creek. I have to be here but there's not much else I can do if I'm not researching new products or new markets. I do go out to the shop and help out if I can be of help.

[Brian Elfert]

Some companies are finding that college graduates simply won't come work for them if they block Facebook access. These are obviously career fields that are in high demand as many college graduates can't even find any work at all right now.

My employer does not block Facebook because there are employees who legitimately need access as part of their job.

[Dennis Peacock]

Just be aware that this thread is subject to being closed at any time. This thread has wandered far from the original topic as posted by the OP.

[Phil Thien]

John and Garrett.... I was a lowly mechanic. I ran my own Porsche-Audi repair shop for the better part of 20 years. Took a chance when I was young and could afford to lose it all, and it worked out. Saving 50% of everything I've made since I was 16 helped, too, but 12 and 16 hour days through the years didn't hurt. Learning how to invest my savings myself to MY best advantage was a major factor, too. I guess I had two secrets: 1) It's not what you make, it's what you want [as I like to say, "make more", or "want less"]. And 2) It's not what you make, but how you grow your savings.

My dad used to collect Porsches when I was just a kid. One of my fondest memories is of him taking me up north to Door County (northern Wisconsin) in a 356C into which he had just installed a new engine (he did all this work himself). I was about ten, and well aware that we were substantially exceeding the speed limit most of the way there. But once we got about 20 miles away from the cottage, on back roads he was familiar with, he really opened it up. Better than a roller coaster.

He sold those cars before my brothers and I started to drive, so I never got to experience one from behind the wheel. I had always thought those cars were similar to VW's, but in later years my dad told me that particular car had a 175-HP (I think) engine it it, which is a lot of HP for a car that size, I suppose.

So you started your own Porsche repair shop when you were 20? Wow! Is it still around (did you sell it when you retired)?

[Martin Boekers]

Now if you are talking about the "Off Topic" forum I can understand that:D, but I feel
some of the others areas enhance how I work.

I have found many answers to problems I encounter during the day that have helped in
making deadlines. Just as others have helped me, I in turn try to help when I can.

If it wasn't for monitoring the Engraving forum I would be quite a bit farther behind today.

I don't feel it's a waste of my employers time, and consider how many hours I put in
on my own time they don't think it's a waste either.

I encourage my co-workers to monitor the Engraving forum when they have time to fit it
in as I feel it is indispensible.

[Keith Outten]

Some may be surprised to find out that there are Architectural firms that use SawMill Creek as a source for information concerning all things woodworking, particularly finishing. You might also be surprised at how many professionals visit The Creek every day searching for information relevant to their business. Add to these visits the people who represent machine manufacturers and suppliers who visit often to find out more about your interests, wish list items and dislikes.

Possibly you don't pay attention to the numbers here, you can view who is online at the bottom of the main forum page. Often you will see 300 registered Members logged in and at the same time 600 visitors. There are over eleven thousand active Members here who represent only a small percentage of over 20 million page views we received last month.

Because we archive threads and posts the information shared here has become a valuable resource, not to mention over 128,000 pictures and other file attachments. Wake up and smell the coffee folks the world is watching and reading everything you post here. If your goal is to share your knowledge with others you couldn't pick a better place to do it than right here.

There are currently 454 users online. 96 members and 358 guests at 1:55 am here in Virginia.
.

[Dan Hintz]

Possibly you don't pay attention to the numbers here, you can view who is online at the bottom of the main forum page. Often you will see 300 registered Members logged in and at the same time 600 visitors. There are over eleven thousand active Members here who represent only a small percentage of over 20 million page views we received last month.
I think I contributed about 1 million of those page views myself ;)

[Van Huskey]

Interesting subject. I am 43 and kinda sorta not really retired, I actually hate the term. I built and sold two businesses and I am piddling with a third. I got extremely lucky in that I cashed out most of my stocks just before the tech bubble burst and then again just before the recent implosion. No far sightedness on my part it was to start my second and third businesses.

I work when I want to and post when I want to, so far my new endeavor is just me so I don't effect anyone's life by goofing off other than my own. My first business had 40-50 office staff at anyone time, the internet wasn't what it is now but at any one time probably 7-8 of them were playing solitaire and another 7-8 were probably chatting with their co-workers. They all had a job to do and I knew if it didn't get done. They also knew if they didn't get their jobs done they were gone. None of my employees hated to see me coming and didn't even bother to close the game window when I walked up. I could however count on every single one of them to work like bees if I had a deadline. They were very productive and though they did not do a job that could be outsourced I never would have had a reason to consider it were it possible and in vogue at the time.

In the end I don't think unofficial use of the internet actually make us less productive as a whole, there has always been things at work to distract people and give them an excuse to waste time. In my opinion the transfer of jobs outside the country is a simple matter of consumers wanting more (as in quantity) for less money. An example close to home is you can equip an entire hobby shop with machines and tools that are built right here in the US or for our northern neighbors built in Canada. If anyone here has one of those (all bought new) I am unaware of it but with all the members there is bound to be a couple.

[Joe Angrisani]

Again, I was never attacking, or even thinking about, anyone in particular. Only Keith's 20 mil overall.

Phil.... Sounds like great fun and a great memory. I have a similar one where we zipped around Upstate NY and western Vermont in a 1953 MG TD he restored when I was quite young, maybe between 3 and 6. He had that until I moved away, so I was lucky enough to get to drive it. I can still see autumn leaves swirling behind me in the rear view mirror as I ran it through rural Washington County. But we all know the Porsche 356 came along and the MGs went extinct. :)

I was the third owner of the shop (and there's now a fourth), but I added Audi, and that was the ticket. Audis must be 25:1 to Porsches in the Denver area, so it was a whole new world. Taking over an established shop meant a full slate of work on Day 1, but boy, by year three we had quadrupled with all those Audis. And for the record, it's POR-sha. It's a family name; it's the only way to say it. One "POR-sha", many "POR-shas". Took a dozen years til my Mom stopped saying 'Porsh'.

[Dan Hintz]

And for the record, it's POR-sha. It's a family name; it's the only way to say it. One "POR-sha", many "POR-shas". Took a dozen years til my Mom stopped saying 'Porsh'.
Interesting... a few car nuts from Germany visited some close friends (we were all S2000 owners) when I lived in Boston. They said it drove Europeans nuts when Americans insisted on calling them "POR-shas". He said it was pronounced "Porsh" in Europe, and you looked like an ignorant snob if you pronounced it any other way.

[Joe Angrisani]

Van.... I suppose it is just the latest distraction, as you say. Humans being humans, we'll always find a way to do what we want. For some it's good and we do it in a way that works for us, while for some it's bad and they'll always think in terms of "getting this" or being "owed that". But it sounds like the environments that succeed are very similar. It's only when you get to the bigger companies that you start to pick up some unavoidable chaff.

[Joe Angrisani]

Dan.... Two or three things going on there. First, the true pronunciation is a sorta un-Spanish-y and guttural rolled sound I can't type, and the second syllable is very soft. But there are two syllables. The second thing, in my experience, is there's nothing quite like a German who feels they need to one-up the world (or better yet, the Americans). I dated one for five years. Mike Myer's old Saturday Night Live Dieter character was very close to quite a few people I knew through supply lines. A third possibility I could see is two ways of saying the same word. It happens in English names all the time.

[Bill Edwards(2)]

Properly pronounced German words:

(The forth word is Porsche)

http://www.billsid.com/snds/words.mp3

[Phil Thien]

I realize it is pronounced "PORSH-uh," but I can't stand the militants. I've driven "vettes," "stangs," "beemers," etc. I have yet to drive a "porsh" (well, that isn't true, now I realize I drove my accountant's), but I never had the interest in cars like my dad.

[Bill Edwards(2)]

I realize it is pronounced "PORSH-uh," but I can't stand the militants. I've driven "vettes," "stangs," "beemers," etc. I have yet to drive a "porsh" (well, that isn't true, now I realize I drove my accountant's), but I never had the interest in cars like my dad.

And things change with time. Old guys like me said "tangs" (or another version I won't
mention), but more recent generations changed it to "stangs"