Is this the future ...?

[Derek Cohen]

For the past two years John Payne and I have been discussing steels used in knife-making, and their has potential application to woodworking tools. He has already produced a number of chisels in CPM 3V steel, and these have demonstrated superior edge-holding to A2.

John sent me a three chisel blades and 1 plane blade to test. I have not reached the testing stage yet, but I thought I would show the steel and pass on my observations with regard sharpening them.

This weekend has been all about painting. Oh how I hate painting walls! Every now-and-then, however, I managed to escape (while the paint dried) to the workshop to make the chisels.

This is what I produced over yesterday and today:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Future%20steel/T2.jpg

From the top: Jarrah handled CPM 3V, She-oak handled CPM M4, and Bloodwood handled CPM 10V.

The Bloodwood handle is rather special. Exactly 2 years ago Tony Zaffuto (TonyZ) sent me a piece of Bloodwood infused with Resinol, a piece large enough for one chisel handle. I've been saving it for something special. I think that 10V qualifies. Thanks again Tony!

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Future%20steel/T3.jpg

All of these handles can take a serious beating, but the Bloodwood/Resinol is effectively indestructable.

The chisels are all 3/4" wide. I plan to test them out chopping the endgrain of dovetail pins. So I have also hollow ground the shoulders to make it easier to avoid bruising the edges of the dovetails.

The 3V is ground at 25 degrees (as it will cope with this), while the M4 and 10V are ground at their preferred 30 degrees.

How tough are these steels? Here is a chart comparing them ..
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Future%20steel/T5.jpg

Source: http://www.hamiltonknife.com/CPM_V10.htm

M2 steel is the HSS with which we are familiar. This has more than double the wear resistance of A2. Now M4 is about double M2 (with 3V a little behind M4), and 10V is more than double that!

Sharpening ...

I hollow ground all the blades on an 8" grinder with a Norton 46 grit white wheel. Grinding was not too bad, but clearly slower on the 10V. The advantage to using these steels is that you do noit have to be concerned about overheating them.

I have been using a couple of CPM 3V plane blades for a while. Sharpening has been hit-and-miss. Pro Shapton 1000 ceramic waterstones remove the steel without any difficulty (in fact this stone is fast), but I have been less happy with the 5000 and 12000 Pro Shaptons on this steel.

Consequently I decided to just use oil based diamond paste on all the stones. I have a set up that uses steel plates (from an old saw) glued to hardwood. The set comprises 40, 10, 1 and .5 microns.

This combination quickly created a razor edge on the 3V and M4 (the M4 literally laughed at the Shaptons, which made no impression on them). However try as I might, I could not get past fine scratches and a dull grey finish with the diamond paste on the 10V. Out of sheer desparation I turned back to the Pro Shaptons ... and you know what - they rapidly turned the scratches to a shine! Go figure.

I have lots of dovetails to chop/pare in my current project, so the next month should see these blades getting a solid workout.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Leigh Betsch]

It's gonna take some serious chizel'n to wear down that trio. Just to make a real life test you should toss in a little paint can open'n and nail cut'n.;) Just joking. This will be interesting, thanks for taking the time.

[Mike Holbrook]

Beautiful work Derek. I eagerly await your future findings and posts.
I have noticed quite a few super steels showing up in the knife world in the past few years, especially "powdered steels" that are suppose to have exceptionally fine grain and almost no foreign particles.

Some of my reading on knife sites is interesting in regard to wood working tools. There are those who insist that there is much more to steel "toughness" than where the steel places on a Rockwell or other hardness scale. They claim that the problem with some of the very hard steels is they tend to chip off small pieces (very small of course) when encountering tough work. They claim that Jack Hammers, for instance, use a little softer more pliable steel that can bend and flex without chipping. I have read that very hard steels will wear away very fast in these types of applications. These are people who test their blades by chopping wood and even harder substances.

I am wondering if the stress on our wood working tool blades is similar enough to the typical wood chopping tests the knife enthusiasts do to make the results relevant? My guess is it would depend on exactly how one was working the wood and the relative composition of the particular wood. At any rate I read a great deal about "toughness" vs "hardness" as a gauge for how well a blade will stand up to repeated encounters with various woods? I was wondering what your experience might suggest in regard to raw hardness vs "toughness".

[David Weaver]

my personal opinion (and I haven't used it, just m2) is that there is more applicability for it in plane irons than in chisels. Chisels are really easy to sharpen quickly, there's nothing to take apart to sharpen them, and it's nice to be able to sharpen them on "regular stones" (ceramics that don't need soaking).

However, in planes, where you often have to sharpen the plane before you're tired if you're preparing rough wood, irons that hold an edge a long time are really nice to have.

Whether I'd choose 3V or M2 would depend on the price. Either of them probably plugs up the fine grit shapton stones on the surface (m2 definitely does), but you can get them close to sharp and I just zip them on a charged belt or leather wheel and they are as sharp as anything else you will find. It's nice how M2 wears without chipping, it's very tough - makes for a great great jack or fore plane iron.

[Dan Barr]

LOLOLOLOL paint can open'n and nail cut'n....... LOL : )

i ... almost... believe that that could make it a fair fight. those steels are going to take a while to dull. I can't wait for derek to put some words out on this. However, sharpening will not be any more enjoyable.

cheers,

dan

[David Weaver]

Might take a while on the power grinder, too. If they are resistant to abrading in wood, they'll be less than spectacular on a grinder, and they'll get hot.

M2 is that way, at least, when in a plane iron. Slow is a relative word, though, it still doesn't take that long to grind. Just feels kind of gummy compared to carbon steel.

[Dan Barr]

Any status on how the testing went?

dan

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Dan

Not for a couple of months, at least.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

Be interested to see the results. The 3v is sounding more and more like both a very good chisel steel and a very very good plane iron steel (especially for people who *hate* tiny chipouts in smoother irons, which you do get with M2 and similar foreign HSS).

Not surprised to hear that steel that tough can be a bear on the shapton finish stones. Kind if surprised to find that they did anything to the 10v.

Wish they had a two-bar chart that had both wear resistance and toughness - at least one as comprehensive as that.

[Charles McKinley]

There have been a group of guys experimenting with 3V that post over at WoodCentral for some time now. I haven't been there for a long time but there was an article on making and sharpening the chisels. I would bet that there is a lot of follow up information by now.

HTH

[John Payne01]

David

I made the blades for Derek, and will be sending more down his way out of other steels for testing. As for answering your question, I think 3V makes an outstanding chisel. You can use it at it's higher hardness range (RC61) and it's better in edge holding than D2 and is tougher than A2 or O1. M4 is pretty good too, but is not as tough and is more expensive to produce. 10V takes both of those problems to an even higher level. I'm interested to see Derek's results, and no, I don't know what they will be. I can tell you from several users of 3V chisels that it gets as sharp as anything else and holds it's edge much longer than most of what's out there. Haven't had a lot of tests against Japanese laminated chisels but have had a couple, and 3V won.

If you have any questions, feel free to send me a message.

Thanks,

John

[David Weaver]

john - I missed this on the first go around. I may not have been reading for a few days.

What temperature does 3V start to lose hardness, say down to 58 hardness or so? It is an attractive option to me not necessarily because it's needed, but because it sounds like it's better, and in theory should have edge retention better than japanese chisels and the ability to sharpen / hollow grind just like you would do with plain tool steel.

Japanese tools (good ones) do hold their edges very well, but in scaling the ones I have (and I have some blue #1 chisels that are very very good ones, even for blue #1 -I would put them right up against a 61/62 hardened A2 in hard bashing, but they are also better at holding a sharp edge and being durable at more acute angles) against O1 and A2 in that chart, they will not hold an edge as long as 3V if that chart is right. I have been tempted to buy some 3v blanks since I have no issue with cutting metal slow and by hand, but I haven't been able to make a priority of it yet, and I've gotten to the point that I don't use plain bench chisels as much any longer now that I have good dovetail chisels and good parers.

(edit: just looked again, and those look like dovetail chisels. I have kind of an attachment to my K-ichi dovetail chisels, though - and they hold an edge very well, but likely less well than 3V in harder woods)

I guess it doesn't take long to figure out that I've sort of changed my mind from my original post about whether or not they're worthwhile in chisels. I waffle back and forth about what the differences are between need and want. In the end, it's all "want" for most of us - it'd likely be cheaper to buy furniture if we could settle for what sells for cheap, so there's really no reason not to go with "better".

[glenn bradley]

Derek, it has come to my attention that you have way too much jarrah. To prevent a shifting of the earth's axis and destroying the whole planet I will send you my address so that you can redistribute the load and save the world ;-)

Looking forward to your test results.

P.s. thanks for posting your shooting board and hot dog items on your site. Very helpful.

[Johnny Kleso]

John,
Whats the costs of the steels..

I remember a few years back when I called Crucibal Steel the salesman had said he thought the 10V would be best and I could not talk Rob Lee into making some plane blades.. The salesman got the 10V steel from looking on charts not testing..

[george wilson]

MSC sold powder tech steel for 1 year,I recall. It was ghastly expensive. Next year,and hence,it hasn't been in their catalog(unless I haven't found it). I think it was too expensive for most people to buy.

[David Weaver]

There is a knife place called alpha supply that sells 3v. It's not that expensive, but it is expensive compared to O1, and it requires a commercial heat treater (there are plenty of guys on the different boards who have used it and can recommend one).

If I didn't already have all the chisels and tools I need, I would think about making my own with it instead of buying commercial chisels.

The only problem with a knife supply place, if you're thinking about making a plane iron (I had some interest in trying to make one 1/4th thick and 2 1/2 wide for a panel plane), is that knife sized blanks are not that large.

[John Payne01]

David

Not sure at what temperature that would happen. I do know that when they heat treat mine it's triple drawn at 1025° if that helps any. I use it at RC61.

John

[John Payne01]

Johnny

Been awhile, hope you are doing well. These steels run a minimum of $25 per pound for rough, flat rolled steel. Heat treating is expensive too, many places will not do it. Derek will be getting a blade in 10V in the near future. The stuff is horrible to work, when hardened it will remove the grit from a grinding belt, even the ceramic ones in a couple seconds. With it, it's not how many blades per belt, it's belts per blade.

John

[Johnny Kleso]

Here is a link to the Data sheet for 10V
http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/DataSheets2010/ds10Vv1%202010.pdf

and 3V
http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/DataSheets2010/ds3Vv1%202010.pdf

[David Weaver]

John - it does. Just knowing that you can grind it and get it hotter than you'd want to touch before you ruin it is useful.

The toughness quote should make it so that grinding doesn't happen often, though, if it's accurate there wouldn't be much edge chipping to grind out.

I found an interesting video on youtube where someone does awful things to a knife and I can't see chips in it. I don't believe the edge would be close to what we consider sharp, but I can't believe the way it stands up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHrTiAk6_v8

[John Payne01]

Thanks for that link! It is indeed tough stuff. I'm using it in plane blades and chisels at a higher hardness than what Crucible posts based on info from knife makers that have used it for years.

As for a plane blade, here's a response I got from a guy that was testing a 2" wide, 1/4" woody blade I had made in it. The previous user had not used diamond media as the final stepp in sharpening. He started using it without sharpening to dull it a little, anyway, here's the post he sent me.

"Hi John,

Well I used the iron quite a bit over the weekend.
Got to say this steel is quite good.

As I mentioned before it started out a little less than optimal, a bit like a starting to wear A2 blade. Still cut pretty well on most wood but left a less than nice finish.

Then hit the Pao Rosa with it and things were not going well so off to the sharpening station. This Pao Rosa is a mad man. Dulls everything quickly and needs a very keen edge. If the edge is slightly dull it tears badly. It just won't cut at all with a dull edge.

I first tried my soft arkansas, just for kicks. Well it did cut much to my surprise. The edge however was almost more ragged than before sharpening. Which is to say it wasn't bad, but not what one would expect off a reasonably fine stone.
Normally I can use a carbon steel tool right from this stone.
Next I went to the diamonds.
Hit the back with 4u and then 1u on steel plates, 0 back bevel. Same grits for the bevel.
Then to 1/2u on a hard leather strop.
I planed for 3 days!

I started on some Pao Rosa and Pau Fero for a miter plane I'm making. It cut like a dream.
Then on to Cherry, Pine and Hickory.
Cross grain and with the grain on the Cherry and Pine.
Normally cross grain work with a high angle plane will dull an edge quickly, even D2 and the like.
I reduced a board foot of Cherry about a 1/4" in thickness. It didn't flinch. Ordinary steel would have needed two touch ups. The Pine was a slightly knotty 16" square of 6/4 stock I'm carving a seat out of. I surfaced the glue up, glue lines, knots and all. No issues, no chipping, nothing. Then smoothed a hickory blank, 2-1/2" square x 30. The surface looked very good.

Before I left the shop this evening I hit the Pao Rosa again, just for grins. It still cut, no tear out, no excessive force. It just cut!

I'm using this iron in a very high angle plane >60deg bed angle. This is a bear of an angle, increases wear by a factor of 4 I'd say over a 45-50 angle.

I'm lovin' it!"

John

[David Weaver]

That bit about not chipping out is why I mentioned above that I thought it was interesting as a plane iron, especially for smoothing.

Chipout on a smoother is what sends me resharpening too early.

A while ago, when I was comparing some irons, I counted the number of strokes they'd take before they stopped cutting, and I made note of when they were still cutting but I'd no longer tolerate the surface they'd leave as a smoother because of lines from chipout.

What I found was that chipout dictated how fast an iron would fail when similar hardness spec (and same alloy, of course) irons were compared. An iron that chipped out early, even with just a few noticeable lines on a shiny surface, would stop cutting much sooner. If they started to have noticeable chipout after about 100 strokes, then if I were using the iron to smooth something, I'd get stuck going back to the stones. The irons that didn't chip could get halfway to not cutting at all (which was several times more than 100 strokes) and still leave an acceptable surface for a very sheer finish or none at all. Those that didn't chip at halfway to their "not cutting" point had almost as many strokes at the halfway point as the ones that did chip before they were not cutting at all.

For that reason, I think the prospect of a good iron that holds its edge a long time and doesn't chip out is a lot more viable than a lot of people who fight any change give it credit for. I wish one would've been available when I put together my 55 degree infill smoother.

[george wilson]

It seems like you'd have to have all diamond sharpening equipment to grind a bevel on the 10V. I do have such equipment,but those diamond grinding wheels are not cheap. It normally is not good to grind anything but carbide on a fast wheel,because if you grind HSS on one,the carbon in the diamond migrates into the steel,making it too brittle.

I was lucky enough to get a 200 RPM diamond grinder that uses flat 5 or 6" wheels coated with diamonds,or a ceramic wheel for use with diamond compound. Thing is,last time I checked,those wheels are about $275.00 each. The ceramic wheel isn't much less,and you have to apply diamond compound to it. We had one of these at work,and even at low speed,the compound got slung off. I don't like getting diamond dust loose in the shop either. It NEVER goes away. It is abrasive forever.

Personally,I know you pay for what you get. If you want a blade that cuts all week,you are going to pay when you try to sharpen it. I'd rather just pay as I go with more normal steels.

[Johnny Kleso]

John,
Sounds like the kind of stuff you want to use Ruby Red grinding wheels on..
After reading the specs on the 3V sounds like the best steel for making morticing Chisels..
Heat Treaters often have the same price per 100 lbs so its best have as much as you can afford to treat at one time..

[David Weaver]

I wouldn't want the 10v, either, because of the grinding issue.

The 3v, though, looks like it would actually be easier to grind than m2, which is tolerable, and behave like a fine grained steel except much tougher.

Several people have commented that they've been able to maintain it with their stones. I haven't had any issue sharpening M2 with diamonds or powered belts, but it definitely isn't something I'd want to remove large chips out of by hand, or grind cambered irons by hand.

I kind of hope LV is considering irons made out of 3v, but since it sounds like it hardens easily when working, maybe that's undesirable.

This whole topic started a big fight on Wood Central last week. I don't think anyone left with a different opinion than what they started with.

John...you're not selling those 2" irons, are you? The price, given the cost of the raw material, might make me a tire kicker or a waiter for a group buy and group heat treat (if anyone ever coordinated such a thing). Alpha knife has all kinds of stock that I could make into chisels, but nothing reasonable to buy that could be turned into an iron.

[george wilson]

Unless I read it wrong,the 3V has about the same wear resistance as M2 HSS.

[David Weaver]

That's what I saw, close but less - maybe i'm overanalyzing the difference - if toughness is the determinant of how hard it is to grind something of like hardness, then i probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Certainly don't expect it to grind like O1, but if it is a lot more temperature tolerant, it would need quenched less often.

No particles bigger than a few microns, though, means no big carbides. My m2 irons release big carbides, that's their only problem in a plane -they would be unsuitable for chisels, obviously, or we'd already have them in chisels - they like (in my experience) at least 30 degrees in a plane. They still wear much longer than any of my other irons, i just wish I could get something like them that didn't release carbides and leave little lines everywhere. Something with similar wear resistance but better toughness would make for a very nice woodworking iron. Nice for chisels, too.

[John Payne01]

I use 8" diamond lapidary plates on my Makita planer blade sharpener, cuts these steels without any problem. 3V can be maintained with normal sharpening stuff, the final step does need to be stropping with a charged strop to get its best edge. M4 and 10V are what I consider diamond only stuff. There are stones that will cut them, but it is a very slow process.

John

[John Payne01]

Not selling any right now but will be shortly. I'm making a couple test blades that will fit a #4 too.

[John Payne01]

Johnny

The heat treater I use was recommended by Crucible and several knifemakers. It's the same price for this stuff up to 25 lbs so I get as much in there as I can. As I said before, most heat treaters will not handle this stuff.

I think in the end in these steels 3V will be the steel of choice for chisels and in plane blades it will be between 3V and M4. I had a guy testing a M4 blade for a #4. He was planing MDF with it. Said that O1 and A2 would fail after about 20 passes. With M4 he said he quit counting after 30 and could not see any noticeable wear. It's not fun to work with though, but not as bad as 10V.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I use 8" diamond lapidary plates on my Makita planer blade sharpener, cuts these steels without any problem. 3V can be maintained with normal sharpening stuff, the final step does need to be stropping with a charged strop to get its best edge. M4 and 10V are what I consider diamond only stuff. There are stones that will cut them, but it is a very slow process.

John

Do you place the plates on top of the Makita wheel? Can you estimate how long each plate lasts when sharpening 3V?

Thanks,
Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

...This whole topic started a big fight on Wood Central last week. I don't think anyone left with a different opinion than what they started with....

I learned a lot in that thread. For example, Larry Williams provided the mechanics of hot diamond wheels (it's the binding compound that melts and the carbon in the diamonds evaporates); so that changed my mind about incorporating diamond wheels for any kind of tool shaping.

Pam

[george wilson]

If you have a slow wheel,about 200 RPM,maybe more,but not 1725 or 3600 ROM,diamonds are o.k. for steel. They still should not be borne down hard,though,or they can get torn out of the nickel matrix. At high speeds,they actually do add their carbon to HSS,and make it too brittle. High speed diamond wheels were designed for carbide tooling.

[Pam Niedermayer]

If you have a slow wheel,about 200 RPM,maybe more,but not 1725 or 3600 ROM,diamonds are o.k. for steel. They still should not be borne down hard,though,or they can get torn out of the nickel matrix. At high speeds,they actually do add their carbon to HSS,and make it too brittle. High speed diamond wheels were designed for carbide tooling.

Here is Larry's quote on this issue: I understand the cementation process but we're talking about open atmosphere grinding. Any fine particle carbon will be long gone before it reaches 1450º F. Fine particles of carbon will literally vanish into thin air, oxidize to carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide, before it gets to 1300º. This diamonds dissolving into steel during grinding just can't be right, I'm sure it's a myth.

At this point I'm way beyond my depth, so I suggest you and Larry take up the issue at next year's Williamsburg conference.

Pam

[John Payne01]

Pam

I have done that but I made a platen out of Micarta and that works well. I've been using these plates for several months and I haven't worn any out yet. So can't give you a number there. With 3V, I would not worry about wearing out my normal sharpening stuff, but add in the stropping with a charged strop to get it too its best edge. For M4 or 10V, you need diamond stuff. One thing to remember is that diamonds are 90 times harder than then next harder substance. So these steels are no challenge to it.

John

[george wilson]

Professional machinists,which have discussed this very point on The Practical Machinist's Forum,agree with what I have stated. I have been a machinist with my own machine shop since 1974,but go back to 1959 using other's machines. The slow machines,which I was lucky to snare one for $150.00(a $3000.00 machine) were made for steel. Fast ones are for carbide. I am not getting into an argument with Larry over this. He said "I'm sure it's a myth". Is that proof,or an "I'm sure of"?:)

P.S.: I just Googled diamond dissolving into HSS. There is a long list,including a site by SP3 diamond tool makers stating that diamond dissolves into steel. Check it out,especially the diamond tooling manufacturer's site. It is:SP3 FAQ diamond tool technology,the 4th on the list .

On a technical question of this nature, it isn't necessary to argue the point,all you need do is google it and do a little research. Then,you can get a real answer.

[Aaron Rappaport]

Aren't the drill doctors' grinding wheels diamond? I've never used one, but assumed they operated at high speed. Also assumed that they didn't end up weakening a drill's edge.

Yet ... Wikipedia provides data pointing in the opposite direction: It's page on CBN abrasive states that CBN was deliberately developed as an alternative to diamond in order to work on steel at high speed without changing it's carbon content.

[george wilson]

Yes,the drill doctors use a diamond wheel,but as it is a small diameter wheel of about 1" dia.,which has a smaller peripheral speed than a 6" common size diamond wheel, they might get by with it. The Drill Doctor,however,is a chancy piece of plastic equipment that I have TRIED to use. Results are iffy,and I'd class it as more of a hobby level machine than a professional level one. Trouble is,the pro. ones cost big bucks. I just grind drills by eye.

Congratulations for Googling it,Aaron. The manufacturer's FAQ will give a more reliable answer than Wiki,though in this case Wiki is correct.

I think what some may not be taking into account is that,like the old phonograph needle,which put MANY tons per square inch on the record,because of its minute point size,the tiny points of diamond are doing the same thing. Though there are more than 1 of them in contact with the tool,they are still in very intimate,high pressure contact with the tool,which is often mot very large(such as a 1/4" square HSS lathe bit.) With the wheel going fast enough,the diamond can get actually forced into the soft(compared to carbide) steel as it dissolves.

[John Payne01]

George

I honestly don't know anyone using diamond media at a high speed. I definitely appreciate the input because I never new carbon migration could happen. But, for pretty much everyone using particle metal chisels, plane blades, etc. This will never be a factor.

John

[george wilson]

I use my high speed wheels for carbide. I don't quite understand what you mean. Why will it never be a factor in using particle metal? Expense? Use of diamond stones by hand?

[John Payne01]

George

I know no one who grinds these PMS steels on high speed diamond wheels. That's where that came from. Everyone I know using diamond media for grinding, and there are many, do it all at low speed. I'm not including people who sharpen carbide, that's quite different than those that make tools out of this stuff. Completely different worlds.

John

[george wilson]

Maybe after they get past the CMP stage,everyone will start wanting to make their plane blades out of solid carbide.:) Actually,are you aware that sheets of diamond apparently are now able to be grown? It has been predicted that someday,strange as it may seem,diamond sheets will be used to coat houses. I can't recall where I read that,and do not necessarily predict that. Just read it. However,do you realize that this COULD RESULT IN SOLID DIAMOND PLANE IRONS!!!! Then, WHERE will everyone go from there? With plane irons that stay sharp for years,WHAT will happen? Woodworkers may get bored to death because there is nothing new to debate about.:) Oh,no!! The death of fora may be imminent.

[John Coloccia]

Maybe after they get past the CMP stage,everyone will start wanting to make their plane blades out of solid carbide.:) Actually,are you aware that sheets of diamond apparently are now able to be grown? It has been predicted that someday,strange as it may seem,diamond sheets will be used to coat houses. I can't recall where I read that,and do not necessarily predict that. Just read it. However,do you realize that this COULD RESULT IN SOLID DIAMOND PLANE IRONS!!!! Then, WHERE will everyone go from there? With plane irons that stay sharp for years,WHAT will happen? Woodworkers may get bored to death because there is nothing new to debate about.:) Oh,no!! The death of fora may be imminent.

We'll just go back to arguing over tails first vs pins first. Never fear.

[James Taglienti]

I'll have to special order a 24K gold LN 4 1/2 for my solid diamond plane blade.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I have done that but I made a platen out of Micarta and that works well. I've been using these plates for several months and I haven't worn any out yet. So can't give you a number there. With 3V, I would not worry about wearing out my normal sharpening stuff, but add in the stropping with a charged strop to get it too its best edge. For M4 or 10V, you need diamond stuff. One thing to remember is that diamonds are 90 times harder than then next harder substance. So these steels are no challenge to it.

Thanks, but since most of my normal stuff is natural waterstones with a couple or three Shaptons thrown in, I do worry. But more to the point, Bill Tindall, Phil Smith, and Steve Elliott have been experimenting with 3V for some years now; and they say to use a 600-1000 grit stone for shaping the edges and 1 micron diamond paste for sharpening/honing. Since diamond seems to work for honing, I figured it would be a natural for original shaping. So, the idea of a flat diamond platen that would sit on my Makita sounds great.

Thanks,
Pam

[David Weaver]

This helps to explain why Johnny Kleso and I got into a disagreement about the suitability of diamonds for HSS and other things a few weeks ago.

I'm guessing the folks he deals with aren't sharpening tooling slow speed or by hand like any hobbyist using diamonds would do.

Which makes the situation completely different vs. someone like me or John Payne who may have the means to sharpen with diamonds at slow speed (where they can be an economical solution, and one that cuts really tough steels well - especially if you're only able to use a cast iron plate with diamonds embedded in it).

It'd be pretty easy to figure out whether carbon was migrating into the steel when using diamonds at high speed - just test the composition of the steel where it's ground vs. somewhere else. I'd imagine the myriad of folks george is mentioning have probably already done that.

[Rob Lee]

(snip)

I kind of hope LV is considering irons made out of 3v, but since it sounds like it hardens easily when working, maybe that's undesirable.

(snip)


Hi David -

We've run testing on all most of the steels in this thread (still have 1 or two others to do due diligence on) - and will likely choose steels specific to an application or intended use. The optimal steels for bench chisels, mortise chisels, and bench planes could all be different choices. We have to also weigh the choices against a practical maintenance (sharpening) regimen .... not to mention manufacturing.

Of course - price is a huge factor too.... what you folks end up paying for is all of the "product" and process you don't see... the $20/lb scrap from blanking the chisels out of sheet material, the worn grinding and shaping wheels, the extra machine time, and the carrying costs of mill runs of material. That is - of course, if you can get it. Lead times are now being quoted at more than a year. There are literally only scraps of some alloys available.....

What makes sense for an individual to use can be a completely different thing than what makes sense from a production standpoint...

Just adding a different perspective to the discussion...!

Cheers -

Rob

[Johnny Kleso]

David,
I was taking about Tool Steel not HSS..

Using loose Diamonds is akin to Scary Sharp on steroids..

Most seasoned woodworks use Bench Stones as it fast and easy way of doing sharpening IN BETWEEN PLANING WOOD
I have gone the tool maker sharpening route now I am back to working wood and doing metal work at seperate times after trying most methods..

I have a
10" 2HP Bench Grinder
10" Jet Wet Slow
10" Old Slow Wet Craftman belt dive
8" MKII Styled Abrasive Disk with a few diamond disks
and 6" x 48" Belt Sander that I dont use but could

Bench Stones I have
A Dozen 10" Arkansas Stones
Several 10" India Stones
A Few Japanese Water Stones
Two 10" Diamond Plates
One Ceramic Stone
Several 1 lb Bags of Loose Media
and Dozen 50 gram tubes of diamond paste


IMHO My A-2 and 0-1 blades get shape enough with a bench stone for planing wood..
There are several ways to skin a cat also..
Thats why Rob Lee also sells all seven tools :)

[george wilson]

Diamond on one of those slow horizontal Makita sharpeners would work fine for carbon steels or tool steels. A micarts wheel would be a good material for holding the diamonds.

On the horizontal diamond grinder we had at work,there was a ceramic disc for use with diamond paste. It made too much slinging mess to suit me. Micarta would hold the pastes better. However,I'd recommend a DIFFERENT WHEEL for each grade of diamond paste,as the coarser diamond dust would still be there embedded in the micarta after you switched to a finer grade.

I may try the micarta wheel approach myself for woodworking tools,because the ceramic wheel is over $200.00 IIRC. Not cheap. For metal lathe bits,though,being narrow,they would groove the micarta pretty quickly. Cast iron would do for them,though I'd have to find some cast iron chuck backing plates to make them from.

David,you are correct about examining steel for carbon migration. A little microscopic examination is all that is needed. This does not enter into the mystical World and true believer realm of certain classes of tools.

[David Weaver]

David,
I was taking about Tool Steel not HSS..

Using loose Diamonds is akin to Scary Sharp on steroids..

Most seasoned woodworks use Bench Stones as it fast and easy way of doing sharpening IN BETWEEN PLANING WOOD
I have gone the tool maker sharpening route now I am back to working wood and doing metal work at seperate times after trying most methods..

I have a
10" 2HP Bench Grinder
10" Jet Wet Slow
10" Old Slow Wet Craftman belt dive
8" MKII Styled Abrasive Disk with a few diamond disks
and 6" x 48" Belt Sander that I dont use but could

Bench Stones I have
A Dozen 10" Arkansas Stones
Several 10" India Stones
A Few Japanese Water Stones
Two 10" Diamond Plates
One Ceramic Stone
Several 1 lb Bags of Loose Media
and Dozen 50 gram tubes of diamond paste


IMHO My A-2 and 0-1 blades get shape enough with a bench stone for planing wood..
There are several ways to skin a cat also..
Thats why Rob Lee also sells all seven tools :)

Johnny, I use stones, too. Mostly shaptons, but some others.

However, when you go from tool steel to HSS, the cheapest way to be able to make HSS really sharp is probably loose diamonds. Even so, I still sharpen all of my tool steel on stones.

From time to time I get my oil stones out (big ones, 10 and 12 inches), but I always go back to the ceramics because they are faster and the edge is finer.

If we start seeing 3V plane irons, I will probably use the diamonds more. For right now, they are ideal in coarse grits for heavy lifting (the loose diamonds), better so than anything else I've used (loose aluminum oxide, diamond hones, bench stones of any type, loose silicon carbide, ...) because they cut so aggressively and don't break so easily.

[John Payne01]

Pam

I get mine off eBay. An 8" plate will cost about $25 with shipping. You'll have to use a threaded rod and a wing nut to mount it on your Makita but it's easy to do and works great. Diamonds cut 3V easily. I use 400 grit to shape and then jump to 3000 grit. Not a problem using the Makita. After that I go to my Tormek. I made an 8" leather wheel that is charged with diamond paste. A minute or so on that and they will make hair pop off.

John

[John Payne01]

George

The micarta plate is just for support of the lapping plate, I don't charge it with diamonds. I have made 8" leather "plates" that I do charge with diamonds and they work very well. You can get 8" diamond lapidary plates on eBay for about $25 shipped.

John

[george wilson]

I really do think,though,that micarta would be a decent material for holding diamond paste,as long as narrow tools aren't used against it. And,micarta wouldn't offer a softish surface that could dub the edge over. I strop my tools in leather BY HAND using minimal strokes to keep the edge from dubbing. And,I'm not using diamond on the strop.

Before using the micarta,I'd take a cut across it on a metal lathe,to remove the slick surface that they are coated with. This would uncover the more porous material inside. Understand,this is an idea on my part,not accepted practice,but with my level of experience,I think it would work well. I have a bunch of 1" thick linen impregnated micarta that I might use for an experiment along these lines if I decided to start using diamond paste on my horizontal honing machine.

[John Payne01]

I think it would work well too. The lapidary plates I use are only about 1/16" thick so I made the micarta plate to add support. I also have a big sheet of thin copper that I'm going to try with diamond paste. It should work well.

John

[george wilson]

Copper is the long established medium for holding diamond. in many fields of work. In jig bore work (actually jig grinding,jig bore uses single point boring tools to enlarge drilled holes),copper laps were (maybe are still) made by turning a copper cylinder. Then,diamond dust was spread on a hardened steel surface. The copper lap was held just over the "anvil",and lightly tapped down against the diamond with a hardened steel hammer while the lap was rotated. The copper would readily become saturated with embedded diamond dust. I expect that now,the readily available nickel plated diamond matrix laps have supplanted this.

The same sort of thing applies in lapidary using diamond. Still,never try to use fine grit on a plate that has been used with coarser grit,as the diamond never goes away.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pam

I get mine off eBay. An 8" plate will cost about $25 with shipping. You'll have to use a threaded rod and a wing nut to mount it on your Makita but it's easy to do and works great. Diamonds cut 3V easily. I use 400 grit to shape and then jump to 3000 grit. Not a problem using the Makita. After that I go to my Tormek. I made an 8" leather wheel that is charged with diamond paste. A minute or so on that and they will make hair pop off.

John

Thanks, John.

Pam

[John Payne01]

I've got a sheet of the stuff that's about 3' x 4' so I have plenty and won't mix grits. I have no idea what my late father was going to use this for, but, it will be put to good use.

John

[John Payne01]

The seller that I've dealt with is rocklady1 on eBay. Good prices and easy to work with.

John

[Pam Niedermayer]

The seller that I've dealt with is rocklady1 on eBay. Good prices and easy to work with.

Yep, that's who I found, too. Thanks for confirming my instincts. :)

Pam

[John Payne01]

No problem, but rocklady1 is actually a guy.

John

[Pam Niedermayer]

No problem, but rocklady1 is actually a guy.

Yeah, Ted something or other; but funny thing, my favorite lumber supplier was lumberlady, also in Tucson. Unfortunately, she died two or three years ago, I'm lost.

Pam

[Johnny Kleso]

David,
I guess if I was doing HSS I might try diamonds..

Here is the Pack of Diamond Film 5" 6MiC
25 for $20 I got off eBay few years back..

191508

[John Payne01]

Just found this one with toughness and wear resistance.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g254/jcav8ter/toolsteels-wear.jpg


Here's another including M4.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g254/jcav8ter/knifesteels-wear.jpg


John

[Derek Gilmer]

Just found this one with toughness and wear resistance.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g254/jcav8ter/toolsteels-wear.jpg


Here's another including M4.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g254/jcav8ter/knifesteels-wear.jpg


John
Is there a difference in how they figure that. It looks like O1 is 3/4 on the first chart and 2.4/1 (T/WR) on the other. And a few other steels are pretty different on the two.

[John Payne01]

I noticed that too. They didn't give an numbers or what they are related too. I'll drop the sales guy a note and see what he says.

John