The importance of face jointing before thicknessing?

[Suzanne Launer]

Newbie here...

I have a friend that sells planed lumber to folks all the time, that they then use for projects. Most of these folks don't own a planer, thus they have my friend get the two faces ready for them.

Thing is, my friend only has a 6" jointer, and therefore doesn't face joint before planing. My friend simply runs the rough boards thru the planer until both faces are clean. If the customer needs clean edges, the edges are either cleaned up using a Festool circular saw on a track, or the edges are straight lined on a table saw that has a very high quality blade, or short boards have their edges run over the jointer.

I think I've always read it's important to face joint first, before planing....but I gotta say, my friend has never had a single complaint....and that's afer years of selling.

So...is it that important to face joint first? And if your answer is yes....are these customers simply unhappy with the results and not saying anything?

[glenn bradley]

The faces of her boards are parallel but most likely, not flat. Jointers make a surface flat, planers make the other surface parallel to the reference (jointed) surface. The acceptability of lumber that is basically S2S and better will depend on the person and what they make.

There are safety reasons as well as others but I imagine there will be enough conversation abuot that. I'll just say that for me I squared lumber to make parts for most of my items so I follow the usual milling sequence. YMMV.

[Rick Fisher]

I am in the building supply business.. Pretty much all the S4S lumber you buy at a building supply store is planed, but not straight..

Jointing lumber makes it dead flat and dead straight, so long as the lumber is not too long.. There are many, many projects made which are simply not made out of flat and straight lumber.. lol

Its really just about how fussy you are.. and what quality of final product interests you.

[Van Huskey]

There are really two problems with this process.

1. As Glen mentioned the planer never produces a flat reference surface it just makes two parallel surfaces so if a board is bowed it will remain bowed. Face jointing is what produces the flat reference surface which the planer uses to plane the other surface parallel and gives you a flat surface on both sides.

2. Milling almost always requires you to mill ALMOST to the actual thickness then wait a day or two and repeat the process once the freshly exposed wood acclimates and new imbalances in internal stresses fully manifest themselves. So even when lumber is properly milled on all four surfaces when it is moved to a new location with differences in temperature and humidity it rarely stays straight and flat. This is the reason much S4S lumber ends up looking like a roller coaster in the big box stores, not because the milling was done poorly, it was probably better than most of us accomplish in our shops when it left the "factory".

The reality is there are some people that do not have the machines and/or ability to properly mill rough lumber, in that case S2S, S3S or S4S lumber is what they are resigned to they just have to adapt and do the best they can with it and understand they will have more waste as a result of the really rouge boards.

BTW just in case SXS means the boards are surfaced on X number of sides, your friend is producing S2S (sorta) when just run through the planer and S3S when one side is straight line ripped or jointed.

[John Coloccia]

So...is it that important to face joint first? And if your answer is yes....are these customers simply unhappy with the results and not saying anything?

If you want a flat board, yes it's important. The customers just don't know any better, or your friend is selling wood VERY cheaply, because they could just go down to the local lumber yard and get properly surfaced boards if they wanted to.

[Steve Ryan]

If you know what you are doing and have the necessary skills then just a few passes through the planer is all you need. ALL solid will cup sooner or later. You can face joint and plane a wide board perfectly flat and lay it down on your bench. Come back a day or so later and it will be cupped because only the top was exposed to the dry winter air or the humid summer air.

[Frank Drew]

If you know what you are doing and have the necessary skills then just a few passes through the planer is all you need.Just by planing, or do you mean using a planer sled?
ALL solid will cup sooner or later. Well, that's not true, not in the absolute terms you state. It's true that wood tends to pick up and give off moisture according to the ambient humidity, but we can control that to some extent and mitigate wood movement with careful stock seasoning and selection and finishing.

[Steve Jenkins]

"You can face joint and plane a wide board perfectly flat and lay it down on your bench. Come back a day or so later and it will be cupped because only the top was exposed to the dry winter air or the humid summer air."

This is true but I would have to say that the reason it cupped was due to improper storage. once a board is jointed and planed to thickness it should be either stored on edge so air can circulate around the whole board or layed flat and covered so no air can circulate.

[Matt Day]

If you know what you are doing and have the necessary skills then just a few passes through the planer is all you need. ALL solid will cup sooner or later. You can face joint and plane a wide board perfectly flat and lay it down on your bench. Come back a day or so later and it will be cupped because only the top was exposed to the dry winter air or the humid summer air.

I think you need to explain this statement in a little more detail.

[glenn bradley]

If you know what you are doing and have the necessary skills then just a few passes through the planer is all you need. ALL solid will cup sooner or later. You can face joint and plane a wide board perfectly flat and lay it down on your bench. Come back a day or so later and it will be cupped because only the top was exposed to the dry winter air or the humid summer air.

Obviously we have picked up some disagreement on this post. For the benefit of the original thread question I will add that what Steve describes can result from one or a combination of many things. Improperly dried material, bad milling methods, bad storage methods (like leaving a freshly milled board un-stickered on a flat surface), even poor finishing methods (including laminates) on a completed piece can leave it more reactive to the environment than necessary.

Wood is a natural product, it contains moisture levels which change and you have wood movement. Generally this is accounted for in your design. If you are having your parts change enough to impact your assembly I would review your material source and your milling methods. This is not to say that just plain old father time cannot be a problem. I have had to re-make parts for a project when something unforeseen makes the time between certain operations unusually long (like the sprained ankle I have right now :o)

I guess the point is that different folks make different things and have different requirements. I have much tighter tolerances for drawers or picture frames than I do for a shelf in the laundry room or a rack for my yard tools. There are even projects where material that is a little "ify" adds to the character of the piece. If what you are using is working for you, I see no need to change.

[Chip Lindley]

Newbie here...

...My friend simply runs the rough boards thru the planer until both faces are clean. If the customer needs clean edges, the edges are either cleaned up using a Festool circular saw on a track, or the edges are straight lined on a table saw that has a very high quality blade, or short boards have their edges run over the jointer.

I think I've always read it's important to face joint first, before planing....but I gotta say, my friend has never had a single complaint....and that's afer years of selling.

So...is it that important to face joint first? And if your answer is yes....are these customers simply unhappy with the results and not saying anything?

Suzanne, some customers simply may not know any better. I know I started that way, buying "planed" lumber, surfaced on 2 sides, but still with bow or twist in a wide board. (and unusable snipe on the ends) Until I bought my first planer and jointer and discoved the BIG difference, I might have suffered for a long time too!

My pet peeve is "old men out in the country" that run their rough lumber through a BelSaw planer until it is 3/4" thick. IMO, they just ruined everything they planed. There is no opportunity to flatten a board by face-jointing. It will then be too thin for most uses! Grrr!

There are specific uses which demand totally straight boards with no cup, bow, or twist--door parts; table tops; any other large panel glueups. Other parts such as faceframes, will be drawn flat to the carcass by one means or another. Those parts need to be straight, but can be made to work with slight bow.

If customers of your lumber-selling friend can work with what he sells, all is well. Others more demanding, may find fault with his output if used for raised panel doors, etc. I love jointer work, so I probably over-do it! Others may not share my exuberance.

Bottom Line: face-jointing critical parts before thickness planing raises the bar for flatness, and the final quality of better woodworking everywhere!

[John TenEyck]

I realized early in my woodworking career that flat and square stock was key to the success of every process that followed. I was lucky to come across a 10" wide Inca jointer/planer not too long after that, which allowed me to buy all my wood rough. It takes a little longer to mill my stock, but I have nice flat and straight stock afterwards so the joinery goes smoothly. If you build furniture a wide jointer is one of your best friends.

[Bruce Wrenn]

A two sided planer does both in one pass. First, the lower head flattens the bottom side, and then the top head makes that side parallel to bottom. Usually a "straight line saw" is used to do the third side (edge.)

[Cody Colston]

Susanne,

As most of the replies have stated, either the stock being taken to your friend is straight to begin with or they are not too particular about straightness. A planer makes one side parallel with the other. If that other side is not straight, neither side will be straight unless a sled and shims are utilized.

Most serious woodworkers have both a jointer and a planer because they work in tandem...flatten one face on the jointer and plane the opposite face parallel to it. BTW, you can flatten a ~12" board on a 6" jointer. It just takes a little more work.

[Loren Hedahl]

The 'old timers' such as my grandfather when he was still living, used to flatten boards with a scrub plane. I have a 6 inch jointer and use it when I can, but for wider boards I use a variation of the 'old timers' method.

I check for a bow with a long straight edge and mark the high spots with chalk just like my grandfather did. I also check for twist with "winding sticks", again marking the high spots with chalk, just like my grandfather did.

Then, instead of getting things reasonably flat with a "scrub plane" I use an electric plane. Then instead of using a series of hand planes to get the final finish I use my lunchbox planer.

I think if I could bring my grandpa back after fifty or so years for awhile, he would gladly stick a pair of ear plugs in his ears and use my Makitas instead of his old Stanleys.

If you have a jointer large enough, that is the most expedient way to go. But there are workarounds. Maybe this helps.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

There's also a method to face joint one side using a router and some 'rails' (which provide the flat/planar surface). I have never used it though.

[Art Mulder]

Most serious woodworkers have both a jointer and a planer because they work in tandem...

I would like to refer all of you to a thread started by Dennis Peacock (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?30519-As-I-visit-various-Pro-WW-ing-shops.....) back in 2006.

This was a fascinating discussion about how many Pro woodworking shops (sorry Cody) do NOT have a jointer. The ensuing discussion included both hobbyests and pros and various discussions about how they prepare stock.


I own a jointer, and use it all the time. And I do believe in the "banana in = banana out" principle of planer usage. (ie: you stick in a bowed board, that is what you get out) But still, I got by with just a planer for 3-4 years when I started woodworking with solid wood. You pick your boards carefully, and you pick your projects carefully.

[Steve Ryan]

Long ago all I had was a RAS and a TS. I would buy boards a few at a time and the yard would plane them for me. I made do with just those 2 machines. I would cross cut and pick a reasonably straight edge for my first rip. Sometimes take a jointer hand plane to get that reference edge. Only had to get it straight enough to get it through the saw. If it was a wider board with a bit of cup then I would rough rip it oversize and re rip till the edges were where I needed them. I made do with what I had and a lot of stuff came out of that little shop.
Wood is going to move and cup with changes in humidity and temp. Sometimes so slight that you cannot see it. Applying a finish will slow it down quite a bit, but not stop it. You may even think that a plastic laminate surface will prevent moisture from getting to a substrate, and you would be wrong.

Back to the original subject.
Facing a board on a jointer before planing is best IF the stock is cupped. The other option is to rough rip and then send it through the planer. If I have a 12" wide board and need 3.5 " rips then I will rough rip the board first if it is cupped. Facing a wide cupped board and planing it may leave me with a lot of skip at the edges.