How many of you that do woodworkng for a living still enjoy it?

[John Kali]

The reason I ask is well, basically I hate my job. Right now I own and opperate a small dental laboratory with my fiance and my dad. I currently work about 60-70 hours a week, sometimes more. Pretty much whatever it takes to get the cases finished. The pay is minimal, I made 18k last year:( Quite frankly, I am tired of long, hard work weeks with little pay. I am still fairly young (24), and feel that if I want to make a career change, now is the time. I now a few other lab techs that have been in the business for a long time, and they all work very hard. I don't want to end up working my life away.

I like woodworking, and was just tossing around the idea of opening up a small shop selling cutting boards, bowls, salt/pepper shakers etc.. Small things that people don't hesitate to buy if they like it, and that are easy to make. I figure that as my skills get better I could start offering things like chairs, small tables and expand as I get better. I have been wanting to learn how to make real furniture since I joined this site a few years ago, but my current job just doesn't afford me the time it takes to do good woodworking.
I have been making spearguns and cutting boards for a while already. Some of my spearguns I think could easily sell for $500-750.

I just dont want to turn my hobby into my job, and end up hating it too. So, for you guys that do it for a living, is it still enjoyable? Do you wish you had ended up making a different career choice? Is the amount money you make reasonable for the amount of time you put into the job?

Thanks in advance, any and all input will be greatly appreciated!
John K

[David Larsen]

I am not into woodworking and construction to make money for a living right now. I just do it to buy more tools. I have a different fulltime job. But, I enjoy construction and woodworking.

I had a construction and remodeling business and did all the stuff with employees, bids, deadlines, etc.

I enjoyed it, but with everything, if you do it too much and push yourself too hard, it becomes a job.

I always told myself that I will do it part time now and pick and choose what I want to do. I don't want to lose the feeling of walking into my shop and smelling the sawdust and thinking to myself... Life is Good!

There is an old saying "Do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life!".

[Cary Falk]

I used to do it for a living when I was in high school and college. I had a hammer in my hand by the time I could walk. I had no desire or energy to do it in what little free time I had. I didn't want to do it the rest of my life so I went into a different profession. Now that I do it as a hobby I enjoy it more. I take on some tool money projets now and then and really start to hate it again buy the time the project is over. The deadlines, budgets, mistakes, wondering if it is going to be to their satisfaction gets to be a little too much. I don't make anything ahead of time to sell. I like working at my own pace and if I don't feel like it that day I don't have to do it. Hope that helps.

[Steve Costa]

John,

I think you should assess what it is you enjoy doing. You can start by locating a career counseling organization and taking a few tests which may reveal your true interests. Once you have an idea of the career in which you are interested do some research to understand what are the educational requirements for that career and begin the education process. You may also want to consider relocating to an area which offers opportunities in the career you have chosen. I believe working 60 -70 hours a week for $18K per year is a waste of your time & talents.

[Matt Day]

I agree with Steve. Working 60/wk for 18k comes out to $6/hr - minimum wage is $7.25. I am not by any means putting you down. In my opinion if you have the patience and detail required to work with wood you probably have what it takes to do quite a bit better than $6/hr.

I am no pro, but I do work for a GC and know how tough it is right now for my subs. Starting a small business is tough. There are a lot of threads on SMC about this topic, check some of them out. I commend you for wanting to make a life change!

[Tony Bilello]

... I currently work about 60-70 hours a week, sometimes more. When you run your own business, expect to do the same for the next several years. Tony B .
.......... So, for you guys that do it for a living, is it still enjoyable? The woodworking part to me is still enjoyable, it's the running of the business that is not so enjoyable. Fortunately I have wife to help out in that dept. Woodworking is very labor intensive and that means unless you are good and I mean really good - like the top 5% ranking in your state - you will need to make money off of others labor. Now thats a chore. I consider myself very good but not in the 'really talented' category. So I have to take in more work and that means employees and that means headaches. As for enjoyable - I take a day or two every so often just to 'play' in the shop.Tony B
Do you wish you had ended up making a different career choice? Not Really. Tony B.
Is the amount money you make reasonable for the amount of time you put into the job?
Definitely. I do a little of everything -strip, refinish, repair, design and build furniture and whatever else comes along. Tony B

I do wish that I could do exactly what I do now but not have to be the owner/manager.
I also think that a slow transition is not the way to go. I was always the one to just jump right in with both feet. There is more of a personal commitment that way and failure is not an option. But that's just me.

[Steve Griffin]

I couldn't be happier with my work. I love being owner manager of my little business, and still love woodworking. I like the variety of hats I get to wear---customer relations, design and computer drafting, bookkeeping, machine servicing, hiring, training etc.

Money is pretty good too, though I'm down to one employee and half the income as a few years ago.

Those who say that having a job you enjoy is more important than money are dead wrong. The single most important thing is to make money. I guarantee that even if you love what you do, if you struggle with a failing business you will be miserable. If you work for someone else making peanuts and have no chance to advance you will not be happy. I'd much rather have a successful septic system pumping business than an unsuccessful furniture business.

Good luck! Make some good decisions and work hard and you will find success.

-Steve

[shane lyall]

I still love it if the order is something I like to make. I several sets of kitchen cabinet doors a month but I only like my job on those orders. There are days I don't feel like doing a task but, as with any job, I gotta pay the bills so I suck it up an do it. I love setting my own hours and with 7 kids and another due in June it allows me to be part of there lives as well. I worked as an chief electrician in an underground coal mine for 19 years before opening my shop. WW was a hobby all those years but I learned the craft and had a running start when I retired from mining and went into buisness. It's taken about 3 years to become a good income. Some months are better than others but my wife is a CPA and works outside our home so that helps out when it's slow. On the days you don't have orders I recomend you don't go near your shop. The first year I was in mine 12/7. If I wasn't WWing I was tuneing, sharpening, or cleaning and I nearly burned out. Take family time when you get it because you'll hit stretches you HAVE to be there 12 hours a day or more. Good luck.

[Larry Edgerton]

I'm a contractor/woodworker.I do about 70/30 these days. I like my time in the shop, but the realitys of being in business for me mean there are a lot of other things I am forced to do that I do not enjoy. The government is doing everything it can to make sure I go out of business, adding costs at an alarming pace, costs that people are not willing to shoulder. I am getting my heiney handed to me by under the table contractors that do not pay all of the manditory costs that I as a legitimate busness must pay. I can't really blame the homeowners for making this choice, because money is tight and a dollar doesn't go as far as it should, despite what the government inflation index says. I have too much to lose now to go without all of the licences and insurance, but at the same time it is burying me. Business 2 years ago was down 92% from my peak year in 2001, so I had to slash overhead to keep my head above water. Last year was not too bad, but this year is not looking great so far.

One example of government costs is the new regulations that the EPA passed on lead paint. I do, or should say did, alot of restoration work. The new regs have added 20-30% to the cost of the job, and in some cases made them impossible to do because their requirements don't work outside in the snow. If I do a job outside in the winter according to their guidelines, I will be in violation of OSHA regs concerning providing a unsafe workplace, so I can not do that job in the winter. If lead paint is found on the ground around the job, I have to dig out 6" of dirt all the way around the house and replace with clean. Being as they call me because the outside of the house has paint falling off already, I have failed as soon as I sign the contract. I took the class to get certification, and as the fellow is handing me my certificate, he explains that before I took the class I would just get fined 32K, but now that I know better they will be filing charges for criminal intent if I get caught. Lovely! Who's government is this?

Meanwhile I bid a job using their technics, and explained to the homeowner the costs of lead containment. They promptly went out and hired a scab contractor to do the job who will do it without the EPA precautions. I could turn in that fellow, but he is just trying to make a living, and I am not a stooley.

Costs on building inspections have edged up as high as 5K on a lakehouse, and for what? Lobbiests have gotten codes passed to promote their products that are not only unnecessary, but in several cases detrimental to the overall quality of the home. The inspectors just do what they are supposed to do, enforce codes made up in a location that does not have a climate anything like ours written by people that have no clue what they are doing, lobbied for by corporations that don't give a damn other than their bottom line. Meanwhile inspectors make sure you have all the manditory gizmos, but do absolutely nothing as far as fit and finish.

I used to have a cabinet shop running full time, but the government came in and decided that I had to update to automated tools basically, and I could not afford to buy every thing that I needed so I laid every one off and concentrated on the construction side of the business, only working in the shop alone. So far I am allowed to do what I want in my own shop, but I am sure that will change as well. There are regs coming that will force me to have a "Approved" spray booth, and the custom built one I have will not suffice, never mind that it is a copy of an approved one.

I averaged 12 employees in my peak years, but went as high as eighteen full and a few drifters, and now I am working alone. Much of this is due to government, either through regs that made it impossible to procede or policys that force manufacturers to move overseas, and make a lot less potential customers available. I used to do a lot of work for factory workers, now I only work for factory owners, and there are a lot less of them.

In answer to your question, Yes I still love a challange in the shop. But do I wish I was doing something else? Heck yes! If I was you at your age I would find a government job, and work at wood below the radar, because if you make it a business, and are sucessfull, you will find that things other than wood will be taking up too much of your thoughts.

I have an Uncle in the optical business on a small scale such as what you are working now, he would tell you to get out of that as well. And he owns the company.

Best wishes

Larry

[Tony Bilello]

................Those who say that having a job you enjoy is more important than money are dead wrong. The single most important thing is to make money. ......... I'd much rather have a successful septic system pumping business than an unsuccessful furniture business. -Steve

+1 My attitude is that we have two lives. We have our work life and we have our home life. Rarely do the two run in sync. So we have choices to make. Do we want to be happy at work and be unsatisfied at home in a lower standard of living or do we want to be somewhat unfulfilled at work and enjoy our home life with better conditions and more time off with more money to enjoy it.
85% of my shop income is from repairs and refinishing which I enjoy neither. The only joy I get from it is the customer reaction and satisfaction when something important to them has been resurrected and they brag on my work. I would much rather build furniture that 85% and just build and never refinish. However, refinishing pays exceptionally well by most standards.
I also work as an Independant Third Party Inspector offshore on oil and gas platforms.It pays very well. Do I mind it? No. Would I do this full time by choice ? No. I would much rather work in my shop building furniture. Does my shop make as much as my oilfield job? No. Overall which would I rather do? Work offshore - it's the money.

[Harvey Pascoe]

Every person has to find their own way in life, so asking what others think is a sure way to end up headed in the wrong direction. What one likes, another doesn't. Most successful people get that way only after making a lot of false starts. If you fear failure, you'll get nowhere. Follow your heart, its the only way.

I made a career change to woodworking at age 58, which is twice your age. It also sounds like you expect instant success. At age 24, you obviously don't have a lot of time into that dental lab. Hint: it took six years before my woodworking biz took off and I nearly went broke in the process.

[Peter Quinn]

I changed careers to full-time wood worker about 6 years ago, and I very much like wood working still. Problem is I am not doing much of it right now. Things are slow, the woodworking part of my bosses business has ground almost to a halt, and I spend most of my days making flooring or stair treads. Boring beyond explanation. Things will crawl back, I have my own small shop that I dream of making a living from, but the businessmis not there now.

I had thought of doing a side business restoring and weather stripping old windows, but as Larry mentioned the EPA has pretty much put the kabash on that. If they find one fleck of lead in the soil the contractor is screwed? I'd like to let them know "Guess what morons, every old house that has ever been painted has had peeling and now has lead in the soil. Mine does. So I have to dig out 200 yards of soil and pay for hasmat clean up to fix a damn window?" Besides that they have essentially levied a tax on owners of any homes built before 1982 that transfers to futures owners and makes the cost of owning old homes greater and thus decreases their value. Nice. Thanks guys. Morons.

[Larry Edgerton]

The sad part Peter is if they get actively enforcing this, a lot of historic homes will simply be bulldozed. The one I just restored is 130 years old, and had lead everywhere, BEFORE I GOT THERE! Now that I have replaced all the windows/trim/siding, the house is for ever lead free.

I was OK on that one because I started the job before the deadline, but I could not do the job now at a price that would fly. I was getting certified while on the job, so asked the homeowner if he would have done the job if I had to add another 50K. He said no, absolutely not, he would have sold as that would have taken it to a point where he could never recoup his investment. Not sure he can now really, but that is another story....

I really enjoy restoring homes. There is nothing built today that compares. There are a few homes for the ultra rich that have all the frills, but there are no working class homes built like that anymore. Buying and restoring one of these old classics is the only chance a under say, $100K sort of person has to own something like it. They are so graceful, and a sense of peace comes over you when you are in their presence, something that is missing from most of what is built today. I hate to see them disappear, but I am afraid that will be the trend if the EPA gets tough on this. Right now we have three inspectors in a three state area, but this is a revenue source for the government, and I expect that to change. They are busy right now just following up on contractors that are telling on each other. Sad.....

[ian maybury]

Please don't read this as more than a generalised take on the topic, but my personal view on this sort of thing is that it all depends on your beliefs/perception, and where you look to for happiness. You basically get what you put out. There's no activity or situation that delivers happiness (or unhappiness) per se, it's essentially an internal state that arises naturally if you can be easy, and can see/connect with the positive in your situation (whatever it is), and the basically benevolent nature of life rather than the negatives. One man's hell is another's heaven - but to get angry or negative is always our own decision.

Adopt a consistently self focused and negative tone, criticise everything and as a result of feeling hard done by stop giving, and stop manifesting goodwill - and that's precisely the reality you will build for yourself.

Balance is also important. It's nice to have enough money to get by, it's nice to work but not to have make a slave of yourself etc. Unwise and uncaring beliefs drive us into behaviours that create unhappiness. (for ourselves, or for others)

The problems that flow from negative beliefs materialise in very ordinary ways. To take a woodworking business example - set a very high income target as a result of putting too much faith in money, put yourself in hock to the bank for loans to get set up, and saddle yourself with very aggressive business targets and there's a definite possibility it won't be much fun unless you are one of those people that get off on that sort of environment. Cheapskate your customers out of lack of care and a selfish focus on profit, and you'll pay a price too.

It may very well be a good decision for you to step away and start off down your own life path, but keep the focus nice and relaxed and open, and try to make sure that there's no tunnel vision at work - that any decisions take account of the big picture....

[hank dekeyser]

Sell a couple spearguns and see how it goes. I continue to bounce back and forth between working for someone and doing my own thing. Currently I am fully vested in doing my own thing, come Spring time I'll likely jump back on w/ the crew. Either way I'm still doing what I want and enjoying it. 24 yrs old is like a "babe in the woods" once yo udouble your age, you'll look back at all the changes and chances you've been through, and probly chuckle about ever doubting making the change ?? At any rate, I still Love my job, and have fun doing it- like others there are "those" days, or weeks. The gov do take a bite and will continue to, so if you are able to fly under the radar, and keep your day job, you'll make more in the end. It is getting harder to sell (I think) good quality- most people dont know any better, so choose your market audience carefully. If you can find a "specialty" niche you enjoy, you should be golden.

Bottom line is - YES I still enjoy it, it is a way of life for me. I am surrounded by tools and materials always. I wouldn't have it any other way.

[phil harold]

+1 on the construction and remodeling contractor comments on regulation and competition with under the table companies
add to that all the DIY shows, box stores...
need to have the clients or sales that will support you
Start part time and see if it will blossom!

being your own boss has lots of freedom but also has many headaches...

[hank dekeyser]

I forgot to mention also, don't "pigeon hole" yourself either - diversity is the key. Through the years I've learned / taught myself how to do most of what I need to "survive" Effectively making i teasier on myself by only needing to create income for the things in life I can't do. IE: pay for tools, mortgage, insurance, etc. Being that I can and do most everything for myself, I'm not faced with the "how am I going to afford to buy a new whatever it may be. I am my own mechanic, builder, furniture maker, etc. - My shop is outfitted with most everything I migh tneed to do just about anything. (woodworking, mechanical, welding, sewing- yes sewing!, shoe repair, vehicle maintenance, home maintenence, etc.) In the end, it's not about what my end wage per hour is, since I enjoy it all, and so long as I can "pay" for the things I can't do for myself, I'm still ahead of the game. Like I said - it's a way of life, I've always got something going on in the shop. Enjoy!

[John Kali]

Thank you all for the input! I think for now, I am going to have to suck it up, and keep on keeping on. My fiance wants to go back to school, so I will remain a dental tech while she does that. I will re-evaluate my situation when she has found herself a new source of income. Not to mention just how much is already invested in the lab. Everyone keeps telling me a new business takes 5-6 years to really get going. I'm at about 3.5 right now, and we are still working out some kinks with work flow, book keeping etc.. Perhaps when things get more streamlined it will get better. I guess only time will tell...

[keith micinski]

I have a job where I get paid large amounts of money (considering I only have a high school degree), great benefits and a great pension. I work two miles from my house and I am off for 3 months out of the year in the winter. I pick up a pile of dirt and move it from point a to point b and on and on all day accomplishing nothing. I would actually consider taking as much as a 20 to 30 thousand dollar a year pay cut to do something that has some meaning and makes me happy. I do agree that there is a balance between being happy and being poor but after 11 years of hating my job I think I would like to give it a go at being poor and happy instead of well off and miserable. I moved out when I was 18 and for the first two years on my own I had macaroni and cheese for breakfast lunch and dinner because it was all I could afford. I remember having my whole life in front of me and making big plans everyday back then. Now I just try and find a way to make through another day. If what your doing now is not going to make you rich then I suggest doing something that makes you happy. Don't take this wrong way but you don't have a lot to lose if your putting 60-70 hours a week and only bringing in 18k.

[Doug Mason]

"I do agree that there is a balance between being happy and being poor but after 11 years of hating my job I think I would like to give it a go at being poor and happy instead of well off and miserable."

I love it!!!! It is a universal thought (doesn't matter what trade you're in)--a thought which most of us at some point have no doubt entertained; I certainly have. It's called "irony," and then we're all dead anyway:)!!!

[Dan Hintz]

I think for now, I am going to have to suck it up, and keep on keeping on. My fiance wants to go back to school, so I will remain a dental tech while she does that. I will re-evaluate my situation when she has found herself a new source of income. Not to mention just how much is already invested in the lab.
Not to be a wet rag, but I hope your relationship is strong. After your fiance allows you to help her pay her way through a degree, she could very well decide her new-found monetary security is all she needs and leave you scrambling with <$20k/yr doing the same ol' same ol'... and you still hadn't decided to try your hand at owning your own business. I certainly hope that never happens, but something to consider.

[Larry Edgerton]

Not to be a wet rag, but I hope your relationship is strong. After your fiance allows you to help her pay her way through a degree, she could very well decide her new-found monetary security is all she needs and leave you scrambling with <$20k/yr doing the same ol' same ol'... and you still hadn't decided to try your hand at owning your own business. I certainly hope that never happens, but something to consider.

I didn't want to say anything but now that that ship has sailed I can personally vouch for the truth in that statement. Kept the new house too......

[Karl Brogger]

Holy CRAP! You only work 60-70hrs a week! and you make $18k a year?!

Don't start get into woodworking..... I don't make much more than that, but the company does pay for both my vehicles.

Now, the last real full time job I had I made probably $70k as a cabinetmaker. That was working 55 hours a week for the company, and another 10-20hrs a week doing side jobs with my employers shop. I was 21 or 22 at the time.

I enjoy parts of it, mainly being getting paid. The rest of it is just another job. I do hate most of it, but parts are okay now and again. I'd do something else if I had any other tangible skills, or anything above a 10th grade education. I'm relying on the lottery at this point, my investment guy says I should try something a bit less speculative though....

[David Prince]

For $18,000 a year working 60 to 70 hours a week you are getting the short end of the stick!

[Tony Bilello]

If you are only making $18,000 a year working 60 to 70 hours a week THIS is the best time to start your own business. This is the time you have literally nothing to lose. At you current job you are making less than a store clerk at minimum wage.
When it is all said and done, it's not the things we did in life but the things we didn't do that we will regret the most. It is better to have tried and failed than to have not done it at all. When I made the jump at age 40, I was an Electronics Engr. working for SW Bell. It was one of the best paying jobs in Arkansas at the time.

[James White]

Two things about this. Is the 18K off the books? Because 18k cash is not the same as 18K gross. The other thing is. He mentioned investing in the buisness. That to me means borrowing money that will = equity in the future. So there goes some of his pay in the form of a nest egg. Just a thought.


If you are only making $18,000 a year working 60 to 70 hours a week THIS is the best time to start your own business. This is the time you have literally nothing to lose. At you current job you are making less than a store clerk at minimum wage.
When it is all said and done, it's not the things we did in life but the things we didn't do that we will regret the most. It is better to have tried and failed than to have not done it at all. When I made the jump at age 40, I was an Electronics Engr. working for SW Bell. It was one of the best paying jobs in Arkansas at the time.

[Dan Hintz]

Two things about this. Is the 18K off the books? Because 18k cash is not the same as 18K gross.
Even off the books, that's not much at all... less than most teachers. He's saving, what, maybe $4-5k off of the books?

[Chris Fournier]

This has been a very interesting thread. I think that some folks have offered advice and others have offered personal experiences for you to consider. In both cases you are still left wondering what you should do.

I left a decent paying corporate job in my early thirties to woodwork full time. Was it the right choice? I'll never know, but what I did know at the time was that getting out of bed to go and do the same meaningless job for the rest of my life was no longer an option for me. I took a MASSIVE pay cut, lost all my benefits and stared uncertainty in the eye long enough to still be uncertain!

By the books, I made a gross error! No matter, I had reached my tipping point and I personally could no longer wear the suit and tie and do the job I was being paid to do. You will likely know when its time for you to move on as well, whether you do or not has everything to do with your personal value system.

One word of caution (read advice). Woodworking is just that when its your hobby. When it is your business it involves sales, bookeeping etc. Not many of us woodworkers really want to sign up for that stuff - but if you don't you'll be very unhappy with woodworking as a career.

I'm sure that you'll sort it all out with time. And if you choose to help your gal through school then do so. I did and it was the best "investment" that I've ever made. I'm fortunate I guess.

[Sean Nagle]

I see three aspects to John's predicament.

One aspect that no one has commented about is that he OWNS [or co-owns] this business with his father and possibly his fiance. Does John have any capital investment in this business or is it his father alone. What is the plan for this business? The business obviously is generating revenue, is that in line with the plan? Is it expected to grow? Can John just walk away from the business or does his father depend on John's participation for the ultimate success of the business?

The second aspect is whether John enjoys this kind of work, not necessarily what he is doing right now. As an owner of a business, crappy work might need to be done by the owner until the owner feels they can hire someone to do that work. Again, what is the long term plan for the business?

The final aspect is financial. Here again, is the business struggling that John is making the small amount he is making right now? Or is it that his job is at an inefficient stage right now and efficiencies will be found as they get the right processes, pricing and business model in place? John might be doing the job that he could hire someone for minimum wage to do when all the cost structures are working to plan?

Making a living woodworking still involves running a business. Those aspects might not be too different from his current situation.

[Lloyd McKinlay]

Meanwhile I bid a job using their technics, and explained to the homeowner the costs of lead containment. They promptly went out and hired a scab contractor to do the job who will do it without the EPA precautions. I could turn in that fellow, but he is just trying to make a living, and I am not a stooley.This is what I don't understand. Why not report him? The guy is breaking the law. He has already proven he doesn't care about doing things properly so how many other corners is he cutting? Are his employees properly protected from the long term effects of lead? What about the homeowner and their children? The negative effects of even a minuscule amount of lead in children are to numerous to list, yet they are now exposed to the dangers.

Unlicensed contractors steal from those who register, comply with the rules, and operate ethically. I'm sure you would report someone stealing from your neighbor, why not from you?

[David Weaver]

I agree with Larry. I wouldn't turn the guy in, either. I don't know what the right answer is in this situation, but when you know a law is over the top, turning around and trying to nail everyone who isn't following it to the letter doesn't seem to me like something I would want to be involved with.

[Larry Edgerton]

I agree with Larry. I wouldn't turn the guy in, either. I don't know what the right answer is in this situation, but when you know a law is over the top, turning around and trying to nail everyone who isn't following it to the letter doesn't seem to me like something I would want to be involved with.

Exactly. The law as it is written is a load of do-do. Its not even a law really, and as such the EPA can write down whatever BS they feel like and make us pay for the licence and then go out of business if we try to comply. If the rules were reasonable, I would expect everyone to follow them, but they are not. I myself am not willing to take a chance because every time I have anything to do with the government, I lose. Yes, I fear my own government. Have lost the faith indeed....

Really, and I am talking to the fellow two post back, if you had taken the course, and you knew anything about construction, you would agree with me. Just because the government passes a law or a code, it neither makes it logical or just. In this case I firmly believe that MORE children will be exposed to lead because the cost of containment is so high because the procedures are rediculous. No one wants to pay for this . I know I won't be bidding on any more restorations.......

Why bother?

[johnny means]

:( Quite frankly, I am tired of long, hard work weeks with little pay. I am still fairly young (24), and feel that if I want to make a career change, now is the time. I don't want to end up working my life away

I hate to sound harsh, but these statements make me think your not cut out for this biz. Woodworking is a constant grind and it's hard. Loving this work borders on S & M.

That said I own my my own furniture business and I absolutely love what I do. I can count one one hand the things that bring me more joy than making things from wood. I've been in the field for about 11 years and on my own for about 6. It has been extremely hard. I consider a 60 hour week "taking it easy".

Also, one needs to be realistic about one's products. Either you compete with every other shop out there or you differentiate yourself and commit yourself to marketing as a full time job. For instance, your spear guns could be an excellent niche, but I am sure it's a very limited and dispersed market. How will you make sure that every single spear gun shopper sees what you have to offer? Remember you will be competing with huge companies who will spend big bucks to out shine you.

The question is how much do you enjoy woodworking? Enough to outweigh the long hours, hard work, financial hard times, sleepless nights due to deadlines and looming bills. Will your wife put up with all this? My wife, God bless her, let my business push us to the brink of foreclosure. We literally closed a deal and received a hefty down payment hours before foreclosure proceedings. It's a rare person that will share and support your dreams to that extent. My children have lived in the dark, literally, while daddy paid for material. Many people would call me a fool for risking so much in order to do what I love, but I believed deep inside that my idea was a winner and I was already "all in". Many times we had nothing but faith in ourselves to keep us going.

[Tony Bilello]

.... Either you compete with every other shop out there or you differentiate yourself and commit yourself to marketing as a full time job. .... Remember you will be competing with huge companies who will spend big bucks to out shine you....

I think a point many people miss is that you are not in competition with other woodworkers but rather you are in competition with the whole world. You are competing with everyone for dollars. Even if you have a good rap and a good product, somewhere in the back of peoples minds is "do I buy his woodworking or do I get a wide screen TV or put a down payment on a car or maybe take a cruise instead.
Even when I have a customer ask for a refinishing estimate insisting that they only want an estimate now for work later down the line, I still bring my 16' box truck and 1 employee. I learned a long time ago, if they change their mind and decide to go forward with your work you better get your deposit now and take the furniture immediately. If you have to come back tomorrow, they will have time to think, change their mind and spend the money elsewhere.

[Jeff Duncan]

I think you probably made the right choice. It's always tough to give advice based on such little information about a person. But it sounds like you would have had a tough time of it. To run your own woodworking business for a living is requires much more than being owning a couple machines and making some odds and ends for friends. You have to be able to run a business. You have to be able to deal with the myriad of different aspects that have nothing to do with making dust. And if your starting off a one man show as you describe, well then you have to be able to produce work. No offense but cutting boards and such will probably not make you $18k a year. There are many different niches in the woodworking fields all requiring there own talents, but you definitely need something you can sell and bring in a steady income.

As for your question, yeah I still enjoy what I do most days. But I'm in a very lucky place in that people come to me to build a lot of unique things. Sure I build a lot of basic stuff, kitchens, vanities etc. But just last month I finished a curved bar for a restaurant. I finished up some cherry bookcases last week, couple interior doors this week, and in a couple more weeks a fairly large set of bookshelves with a curved section in the middle. These are the jobs that make it worth it for me but it's not easy and it's not for everyone. Believe me when I say there are many days (most of them actually) I'd love to sit in a cab and move dirt back and forth for union wages. Just remember....the grass is always greener......
good luck,
JeffD

[keith micinski]

You would love it till you had to get up at 3 A. M. and do it for 16 hours just to go home and get a few hours of sleep and then 6 months later your still doing it and all you have to show for it is a different pile of dirt in a different area. Sometimes the grass really is greener. Also sitting in a cab is common myth. Bouncing around in Heavy equipment all day is the equivalent of getting beaten with a bat all day. But hey they pay me a lot at least so it helps. I still say, any chance you get to start your own business take it and if you fail pick your self up and do it again.

[Dave MacArthur]

Concur with folks above that owning and running a business is MOSTLY about owning and running a business... and not much about what that business makes or does. There's a reason the CEO from a bank can become the CEO for an airline or car-maker a year later, and there are schools and degrees for business. As I'm sure you well know from your hard work at your current dental lab business! Someone above made the good point that unless you're in the top 5% talent (in any skill area) and getting paid accordingly some premium for your work, you will have to make your profit on the work of others for which you try to minimize your cost--this will end up being the exact opposite of "woodworking" in practice.

I own and run a property management company, a handyman/repair LLC, and just retired from the AF... which has caused some recent introspection on how I've spent my time. Here's a thought for you: at 24, if I was making $18k/year working 70 hours/wk and not enjoying life, I'd join the military. Sorry, out of left field, but hey--see the world, learn some skills, depending on what you go in as you could make decent pay way over that, and most bases have a fully-decked-out woodshop you can use for free for your woodworking hobbyist enjoyment. There are a LOT of days I don't want to try to rent houses or do some repair... but I almost can't think of a week I didn't love my AF job for almost 25 years. YMMV, but worth a thought ;)

[J.R. Rutter]

I enjoy parts of it, mainly being getting paid...

lol - that's my favorite part, too!

It boils down to being work. I don't mind the work most of the time, especially with employees to take care of a lot of it. (Of course, there are headaches associated with people as well.)

60-70 hours a week for 3 years is too much work. You would be better off hiring someone to do part of that and working on getting the procedures and techniques in place to be able to get profitable.

[Paul Murphy]

Please don't read this as more than a generalised take on the topic, but my personal view on this sort of thing is that it all depends on your beliefs/perception, and where you look to for happiness. You basically get what you put out. There's no activity or situation that delivers happiness (or unhappiness) per se, it's essentially an internal state that arises naturally if you can be easy, and can see/connect with the positive in your situation (whatever it is), and the basically benevolent nature of life rather than the negatives. One man's hell is another's heaven - but to get angry or negative is always our own decision.

Adopt a consistently self focused and negative tone, criticise everything and as a result of feeling hard done by stop giving, and stop manifesting goodwill - and that's precisely the reality you will build for yourself.

Balance is also important. It's nice to have enough money to get by, it's nice to work but not to have make a slave of yourself etc. Unwise and uncaring beliefs drive us into behaviours that create unhappiness. (for ourselves, or for others)

The problems that flow from negative beliefs materialise in very ordinary ways. To take a woodworking business example - set a very high income target as a result of putting too much faith in money, put yourself in hock to the bank for loans to get set up, and saddle yourself with very aggressive business targets and there's a definite possibility it won't be much fun unless you are one of those people that get off on that sort of environment. Cheapskate your customers out of lack of care and a selfish focus on profit, and you'll pay a price too.

It may very well be a good decision for you to step away and start off down your own life path, but keep the focus nice and relaxed and open, and try to make sure that there's no tunnel vision at work - that any decisions take account of the big picture....

Ian has an insightful take on one aspect of the situation, try to have the "glass half-full" outlook.
Where I part company with this is you have to be ruthlessly disciplined in creating and finding fault with your "business model". No amount of hard work and positive outlook will make up for a missing or poorly planned business model. If the numbers don't work, change the business model to make the numbers work. Some business models don't work in every location, so consider that in your plan.

I have a good friend who spent 3 years and lots of savings on a business that never had a large enough customer base to succeed. He had a great attitude, great work ethic, and marginal business plan. Luckily he never quit his day job.

[Alan Beech]

I run my own business.

I learned the hard way that you can either work IN the business or you can work ON the business. 18k for 70hrs a week means you are working IN the business with no opportunity to see beyond what's occurring for that day. Take a day off and anmswer some questions for yourself.

1) Does the business have a plan for a more prosperous future.
2) If NO then quickly find something else to do
3) If YES then are you working to the plan or just working IN the business
4) If YES then stick with it if the rewards are going to be there
6) If NO then quickly find another job
7) Then ask. WHAT do you want to do ? May take a few days to figure out. Make it concrete and visible with some attainable goals you could measure at any point in time. Then its time to work out a plan to get to the goals.
8) Dependants. Does your father depend/rely on you to work in the business. If you wern't there would he have to employ and pay for a full time worker. What would he have to pay.? Is your fiance also critical to the business. Ask the same question.

I know all this sounds very different from working IN your business. If you were working ON your business you would be checking and answering these issues on a weekly/monthly basis.

regards
Alan
PS Business is at best a nice even world to be in. At its worst it is ruthless and demanding of time, money and relationships. Be prepared.

[Chris Cohick]

I found another fossil thread I think might be worthy of dusting off. Some of the advice and personal experience shared here is invaluable, and it is certainly an interesting read.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Thanks for reviving this. Great thread!

[James White]

John,

Did you start a woodworking business or did you stick to the dental lab? How are things going?

James

[Mike Schuch]

60 hours a week is not unusual work hours for someone building a business. I don't believe you will be successful starting your own business if 60 hours a week is too much for you. But spending 60 hours a week building your own business is probably much more rewarding than spending 60 hours a week building someone else's business.

Making things is a very small part of owning a business. Running a business is much more time consuming than actually practicing the craft that the business is centered around. Where are you going to sell the goods you make? How much of your time do you think will be dedicated to selling your goods vs actually making them? How much of your time do you think you will spend ordering materials, doing the books, paying the bills, doing taxes (You know you pay double social security when you are self employed?) etc? How much do you think it will cost you to make your goods vs how much do you think you can sell them for? You might find the $6 is great pay compared to owning your own business!

You might also find that being an entrepreneur IS your calling in life and it is the most rewarding thing you have ever done. No one can answer that for you.

I have always been talented with computers and worked my way through College consulting on computers. The consulting part I was great at. The billing, collections, inventory, paperwork etc... not so great at. I have worked for a couple of companies since graduating many years ago and I get to do what I am good at and not have to futz with the business/accounting part that I am not good at. I enjoy working with computers but it is a job and it is work! Working with computers is no where near as fun as when I was a nerdy kid spending my every spare moment working on them. Woodworking is my low tech hobby that is a nice contrast to my high-tech career.

[jack duren]

The reason I ask is well, basically I hate my job. Right now I own and opperate a small dental laboratory with my fiance and my dad. I currently work about 60-70 hours a week, sometimes more. Pretty much whatever it takes to get the cases finished. The pay is minimal, I made 18k last year:( Quite frankly, I am tired of long, hard work weeks with little pay. I am still fairly young (24), and feel that if I want to make a career change, now is the time. I now a few other lab techs that have been in the business for a long time, and they all work very hard. I don't want to end up working my life away.

I like woodworking, and was just tossing around the idea of opening up a small shop selling cutting boards, bowls, salt/pepper shakers etc.. Small things that people don't hesitate to buy if they like it, and that are easy to make. I figure that as my skills get better I could start offering things like chairs, small tables and expand as I get better. I have been wanting to learn how to make real furniture since I joined this site a few years ago, but my current job just doesn't afford me the time it takes to do good woodworking.
I have been making spearguns and cutting boards for a while already. Some of my spearguns I think could easily sell for $500-750.

I just dont want to turn my hobby into my job, and end up hating it too. So, for you guys that do it for a living, is it still enjoyable? Do you wish you had ended up making a different career choice? Is the amount money you make reasonable for the amount of time you put into the job?

Thanks in advance, any and all input will be greatly appreciated!
John K

Yea cabinetry or commercial can be fun for awhile. You start out at the bottom and work your way up the ladder year after year. You learn each aspect of the job with a few twists here and there to make it interesting. You'll get to the point where your maxed at pay wherever you go and the only enjoyment is a change of scenery,tool or company. You'll start a lil shop in the garage for fun so you can build personal things that "YOU" want and think you can make a few dollars selling things. You start purchasing tools from smaller sales and start to think "hey I could work for myself". I'll stop there...:(:o

Now this would be the start of my story after 32 years as a professional cabinet and commercial/fixture maker . Now what I'm doing now in woodworking is different than what I did for the last 30 years and most likely will do it the rest of my life if its up to me. I've been a comm-residential cabinet maker since I was 18, 50 now. The ups and downs plus the economy with drive you batty batman:eek: Take a hard look at your options and a hobby before you step out.

So personally I wouldn't suggest doing it for anything more than a hobby and few bucks. Cabinet and commercial guys here in Kansas City are a dime a dozen and a lot have 10 years or more for experience.

[Kevin Jenness]

For another perspective- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBi4zroEj1w.

[Martin Wasner]

Wow, old thread.

I've been on my own since 2004, woodworking has been my only job since 1998. If I had it to do over again, I'm not sure I could do it. There has been some really tough years. Some really scary decisions made, and a lot of capital laid out.

Building a business is hard. One in the trades, doubly so. This year is the first year that I really feel like my shop has been a success. Some new clientele and some really crazy projects has improved my attitude greatly. But, growth creates a whole new batch of problems. There's not enough man power to get things done, so I need another body, but there isn't anywhere to put one. So the answer is moving. But that means downtime, and in my case, building a new building and tripling my production space and picking up a lot of debt. Debt equals risk, and another scary decision.

If you can do it, great. But it's most likely not going to equal you rolling in the dough, and lots of time off. Most who are self employed do so to get ahead in life, but I think most do it to be in control of their own fate and fortune.

[Larry Edgerton]

Nothing has changed since my post on page one. I still think I should have stayed in college...........

Larry

[Robert Engel]

As a 30+ year business owner, I can tell you struggling in business is just as stressful as succeeding.

What I mean is being slow can be as bad as being swamped.

If you're doing what you truly love, they'll be no regrets even if you don't get rich.

The real problem is we have swallowed the American definition of success: money, assets, and status.

Its all because we have an economy based on consumption and accumulation. Greed is at the core of it all.