Life with my laser after 2 years

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

Well it has been almost 2 years since I purchased my Epilong mini 24. So I though I would do a quick post to let others know how it has performed.

First let me say that the laser has worked perfectly since day one. It cuts as well today as it has 2 years ago.

I dont use the laser for retail but use it for R&D type design. While I have designed and cut PC cases with the laser I pramarily use it to cut templats that I use for both woodworking and metalworking.

I have also purchased the Epilog (Gast) compressor and the rotary attachment. The compressor works much better than my large shop compressor. I wired a sendor into the laser and it starts up on demand.

I used the Rotary attachement only a couple of times and in both cases it was not a successfull endevor. Not a very good design.


183132

All that said. The only regret that I have is that I wish I spent the near $20,000 on a CNC router. I think I could have both designed, built and sold products using a CNC router and for $20,000 you can get one heck of a CNC router.

Since purchasing the laser I have built a couple CNC routers and have found that the laser and the CNC work very well together. They compliment each other but if you are considering going into business the purchase of a CNC could be done cheaper and produce income almost immediately.

[Doug Griffith]

Since purchasing the laser I have built a couple CNC routers and have found that the laser and the CNC work very well together. They compliment each other but if you are considering going into business the purchase of a CNC could be done cheaper and produce income almost immediately.

I almost agree with you. One thing to consider is the cost and learning curve of CAD/CAM software. Another is the experience required to create proper toolpaths. Another is experience to select the correct cutter, feed, and speed for the material being machined. Another is understanding fixturing. Another is the noise and mess of a CNC. Another is the "mistake factor" - do wrong on a laser and it eats your material, do wrong on a CNC and it can eat your machine. Another is the space required for CNC and need for a vacuum system (in addition to a dust collector). Also, a decent production CNC router with a spindle is not exactly cheap.

[Robert Walters]

I guess it really all depends on the intended usage.

I wanted a laser for many many years, just couldn't afford it. So, I bought/built a CNC router.
I found that everything I was doing on the router was emulating what a laser could do better.

Carved signs in acrylic, but had to flame polish by hand.
Lots of prep/finish work when using router, minimal (if any) when using a laser.

I have been having fun trying various materials on the laser too:
paper, cardboard, granite, glass, stone, felt, fleece, fabric, etc be it cut or engraving.

Though a CNC router is nice to create PCB's with.

I'd probably do metals if I had the real estate, THEN I'd have a CNC mill, lathe, sheet sized router.

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

I am primarily an inventer/researcher so the CNC seems to be better suited to that task. That said I agree the laser is much more a turnkey system. However a cnc router wont burn down your house.

It did not take me that long to get up to speed on the cnc router. I use corel draw to create my parts and Vectrics Cut-2D to create the tool paths. Not that complicated as the hard stuff is done for you. I have crashed my router a few times and at most I lost a bit.

[Chuck Frysinger]

Just the opposite with me. Ii bought a CNC router in 1997. First laser in 1999. Now have 5 lasers and router seldom runs. Laser has much more capability. Also much less to operate. No tooling to wear down and replacve as often as the CNC.

[Terry Swift]

Although more expensive in the beginning, why not go with a CNC type Laser like a Kern - where you have a large bed and usually a very hefty wattage laser. I know CNC routers have a place; but from t I've seen - if you can make or afford a large bed laser - then you're more likely to do jobs nobody else in your area could perform if they didn't have a large laser. My laser bed is small; but for a start-up; it works. If I have larger jobs, I know I can usually farm it out locally to someone who has that capability - until I can build my own shop and create / buy a large bed laser and possibly a CNC router. Kits for routers go for about $500 - $1k; so not a huge investment when considering the price of even a 12 x 24 bed laser. Of course, $50-$125k for a large bed laser is nothing to sneeze at for sure.

[Larry Bratton]

In 2004 I bought the first CNC router I had ever seen up close. It was a 50x100 table with a 5hp Columbo spindle. I purchased Enroute tool path software with it and Win CNC post processing. I was literally making product within a week of the time I set it in my shop. In 2007 I purchased the Epilog EXT. The laser was a great compliment to the CNC and I paid for it the first year I owned it (had existing business). Circumstances changed dramatically in 2009. I sold the CNC, kept the laser and moved to a new place. Had I to do it over, I would do it exactly like that again, CNC first, laser next (unless I could afford both at the same time). Trying to make a living with only laser output, in a new place has been challenging. The laser only does fit my situation a lot better than both, but I do wish for a router from time to time.

[Scott Shepherd]

I think you need to put the two in perspective too. Laser jobs tend to be cheap. $15 for this, $8 for that, $35 for this, maybe $100 for something. CNC router is $100 for that, $1,500 for that, oh, a $5,000 repeat job, etc. etc.

Our router doesn't run all the time, but when it runs, it smokes the laser for total dollars for the same time frame. For instance, I quoted a sign the other day for $3,000. I've not quoted any $3,000 jobs for my laser since I've owned it. It's apples and oranges. Each have their place, but they can serve very different markets, some far more lucrative than others, in my opinion.

[Larry Bratton]

I think you need to put the two in perspective too. Laser jobs tend to be cheap. $15 for this, $8 for that, $35 for this, maybe $100 for something. CNC router is $100 for that, $1,500 for that, oh, a $5,000 repeat job, etc. etc.

Our router doesn't run all the time, but when it runs, it smokes the laser for total dollars for the same time frame. For instance, I quoted a sign the other day for $3,000. I've not quoted any $3,000 jobs for my laser since I've owned it. It's apples and oranges. Each have their place, but they can serve very different markets, some far more lucrative than others, in my opinion.
No truer words have been spoken.

[Chuck Frysinger]

Still the opposite on work. I am working on a $52000 job. Just finshed $84000 job in November on the lases. Time frame to complet this $52000 was 6 weeks. Not done that yet on the CNC.

[Scott Shepherd]

Chuck, there are exceptions to all rules and I'd say you are a very rare exception. My guess is that 99% of the laser owners on this forum have never made $84,000 from their laser in an entire year, much less 1 month.

Our laser didn't pay itself off in a year. Our router did. Our vinyl plotter did. Our dye sublimation did. Our laser works, and works well, but as far as a pay as you go thing, if I had to do it all over again, it would be a CNC router and vinyl plotter from day one, pay cash for the laser with the money made from those two.

[Anthony Scira]

After serious thought of selling my Epilog Helix to fund a nice CNC my realization is until I learn how to market and find a market I will be in the same boat, professional hobbiest. So until I can get my laser making money the CNC will have to wait.

[Chris Tatarian]

Who makes the best CNC routers?

Chriis

[Scott Shepherd]

Best by what criteria? Price? Value? Quality? You can get into brand name routers for $15,000 (maybe less) and go into the $50,000 range fairly quickly. Some you buy and assemble yourself and some will take some serious equipment to unload.

Shopbot, Camaster, and MultiCam all come to mind. There are many others. MultiCam might be double what the other 2 are, but they are all built different. Just depends on what plan to do with it.

None of them are a "buy this today, make millions tomorrow" machines. You have to have a reason to have one first. If you have a market, they will make you some good money.

Just my 2 cents.

[Ross Moshinsky]

When a hobbiest buys a CNC router they are typically a engineer or woodworker. When a hobbiest buys a laser they are typically artistic or crafty. Not always, but it seems more often than not.

I've always felt that lasers were unfairly marketed. A kids face on a piece or marble for $20-30 is not profitable. To get a laser up and running is $8,000-15,000 roughly. The marble alone is $2-3. You spend 20-30 minutes between scanning, editing and lasing...the math never adds up. The fact a laser is marketed as a fancy printer anyone can use has really hurt the industry. Most laser owners do not understand that $30/hr may be okay if you run the laser 24/7 but if you only run it 2 hours a day, that means you only made $60 that day or $15,000 a year. The laser industry is not an easy one to make a profit in because in general, most people are not willing to charge enough to be profitable.

The CNC industry is different. You need to know more to run a CNC. A familiarity with CAD/CAM and woodworking is typically very beneficial. They are dusty, dirty, and loud. You need "work space" to use one where a laser could theoretically be used in an office building. CNC routing is also more involved with the finishing. A lot of laser work is assembling finished items. CNC you work with raw items that need to be finished. All of this scares away a lot of hobbiests. The biggest thing that makes a CNC more profitable is scale. Say a 4x8 CNC router is about $20,000. You can't get anything close in a laser that size unless you go to China. Even then, you have to worry about fume extraction as these are typically open beds. It becomes an issue. Also, there is still a perception that size=value. Some think bigger=more expensive materials but a nicely finished plaque can cost me $30 the same price as a 4x8 piece of MDF.

In the end, both have their benefits. Depends on your industry and need. Lasers are easier to learn but are harder to score a job where you can make a serious profit. CNCs are harder to learn but have the potential to make you a serious profit off a couple of jobs.

[Chuck Frysinger]

When you buy equipment you must have a plan for return. Even as a part timer on side work it is best to plan what you want to get out of it. The smaller lasers are portable and go anywhere. I started by hitting festivals and shows taking thelaser with me. Many shows I could turn $3000 to $8000 out on a weekend after a few tries at it. I built a business from this and have not had to look back since. A CNC I owuld of never been able to go out and do this. If oyu have the right product to sell and the numbers walking around you you can average $200 an hour. I look for shows with trafic of 50000 people or better attending.

[Dan Hintz]

And before any newbies ask... Chuck's results are not typical.

[Steve Clarkson]

And before any newbies ask... Chuck's results are not typical.

........or real.

[Frank Corker]

I agree with the last two replies.

[Mike Null]

Chuck

What kind of fees do you pay for shows drawing that kind of attendance?

[Doug Griffith]

Chuck, you wouldn't happen to be a VersaLaser rep would you? In Kentucky?

[Ross Moshinsky]

To get a booth space in a trade show with 50,000 people would cost in the neighborhood of $20,000 between floor space, electrical, carpet, booth, shipping, labor, ect. No union city would ever let you setup a laser yourself. To get a laser going you would need 3 unions to get involved. Electricians would literally have to come over and plug it in and run the power cord. You'd have to get the plumbing folks over to makes sure you connected your air assist and air cleaner right. You'd also possibly have to have a special union put the laser on table if you are in a city like Chicago. Labor alone just to get the laser turned on could be $2,5000

[Chuck Frysinger]

Yes , I am a Univesal Rep.
And yes my numbes are real
Shows tha draw those numbers are in your own backyards.
Festivals are one of the best that draw crowds and many ready to buy.
Best festival I went to cost me $200 for the 2 days, not $20,000, drew over 100000 people and I sold $8800 a good margin of profit.
It takes work and determination not to mention the right products to market. It cn be done in almost every state if one is willing to do the momework. It does not take a miracle. The right Laser, filtration cart and air pump can run from A 20 AMP 110 sorce.

[Scott Shepherd]

If I were having $84,000 months, followed by a $52,000 month, all on my lasers, the last thing I'd be doing is selling lasers.

[Dan Hintz]

Yes , I am a Univesal Rep.
Chuck,

We require reps to specify their company ties in their sigs here... please do so now before making any more posts that may be construed as potential sales pitches.

[Mike Null]

Chuck

What Dan said is on target though not policy. Your previous posts piqued my interest as I have never heard of such results. Now that I know what your involvement is I will weigh your remarks more carefully.