Pax Handsaws

[Jonathan Spool]

I would like to have opinions on how a Pax crosscut or rip handsaw compares to a Disston #12, as far as its smoothness, and quality of cut and steel. Both are tapered, but the Pax is breasted. Is it difficult to find someone who sharpens breasted saws, or is it as simple as eliminating the jointing process?

[David Weaver]

I think any competent hand sharpener will have no issue with a breasted saw. Jointing is not bypassed, it is just done intentionally leaving a breasted edge (i.e., instead of intentionally jointing the teeth straight across, the jointing is done at the tooth line - or if it's straight, the saw edge can be made to be a breasted edge by jointing the teeth progressively more heavily at the edges).

I'm assuming that you are talking about the old disston #12s, like something around 1910 for example? And comparing that to a new saw?

If the price is equivalent, and you are looking at a full-plate #12, then get the #12 without question and forget about the pax.

I don't know how thick the pax are, but if nothing else, the polish was far better on a #12 and the handle is much finer - shaped better, and it is apple instead of beech. I don't know what steel is in the pax saws, but i doubt (very seriously) that it is better steel and better tensioned than a #12.

They are a different pattern of saw (pax vs. disston #12), by appearance closer to a #8 by placement of the handle than a #12.

FWIW, both of my large #12s (a 26 inch crosscut and a 28 inch rip) are breasted, and both have near full plates...i.e., I don't know if they came that way or if someone made them that way but they haven't had half the life sharpened out of them (i'm not that interested in saw history, the answer is probably out there). I like them that way and I sharpen them to keep them that way.

[Jonathan Spool]

Thanks for that David. Guess I'll be continuing my quest for a near mint #12!

[john brenton]

You will probably shell out some real big money for that near mint #12. Pax has several lines of saws, and several sizes. The only ones you usually see in catalogs or online are about 20"

There were some full length PAX saws on ebay a while back that didn't fetch a ridiculous amount of money like a #12 does.

I don't mean to throw in my "it doesn't matter anyways" 2 cents...but a cheap violin in the hands of a master sounds way better than me with a stradivarius. I'm pretty sure the PAX could do what you want it to do.

[David Weaver]

One that has a near full plate, a good handle, and no pitting is plenty good. Don't worry if they are a little dark or the etch is difficult to see.

They are out there if you look, I have three of them, I think I paid $65 each for two of them and $55 for one (this was fairly recent).

One of them required a little minor rust removal, and the other two did not. All three required jointing and sharpening. I don't know how much it costs to get someone to do that.

I don't even know who sells the pax saws over here to be able to tell how much they cost.

Anyway, there is a significant taper on #12s, IIRC from using mine, and a very smooth plate due to the level of polish. The only reason I could think that someone wouldn't like a #12 would be if they don't like the tote off the back of the saw (i.e., if they prefer the d8 style of saw with the handle set in with a lot of rake). I like the #12 style better, but henry sure sold more D8s from what I can tell.

[Eugenio Musto]

I have a rip Pax handsaw, in my opinion it works very weel.It cuts quickly and smooth.The handle is a little ugly but you can make yourself another one...

[Chris Vandiver]

If one prefers the handle hang of a D8 over a #12 but wants the blade quality(and straight back)of the #12, then the #16 is the way to go. Blade quality and taper grind of the #16 is nearly identical to that of the #12.

[Jonathan Spool]

I didn't realize that the 16 had a tapered blade. Tools for Working Wood has the full length Pax saws, including a 28" rip. http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=PZ-HS303.XX&Category_Code=&Search=pax . Only reason I said "Mint" is that I really like the reflective quality of a clean saw to help me square the cut. I saw a near mint #12 on fleabay but it was over $600!!!

[David Keller NC]

Jonathan - Just my opinion, but it would be best if no one gave Pax any additional business as far as panel saws are concerned. If you've ever seen one of these in person, you would rightly conclude that the quality of the handle is on the level that a kindergartner could produce by using a piece of plywood and a drill bit - they're that bad. There is a point at which an item begins to be a saw-shaped object rather than a saw, and Pax hit that point years ago and kept running.

If you want shiny (I can understand - there's something to be said for new tools), save your dineros and buy a L-N panel saw. Yes, they're shorter than a full size 26" panel saw, but you will never notice in 4/4 and 8/4 cabinet stock.

[David Weaver]

Everything main-line disston has a tapered blade.

$600 for any #12 is ridiculous, it's a matter of looking for someone who's got more in their pockets than between their ears.

I would focus in the $0-$100 range and you should be able to come up with a nice #12.

#7s are also lovely saws.

If you like the inset handle, D8s and 16s are common saws that are also very nice.

All of them are taper ground, and as long as you get a reasonably old saw, they have nice handles, and good quality relative plain-seeming steel (which is nice for a saw).

Back when disston was making those saws turn of the century, i would guess that they were probably about a day's wage for a laborer, and they were a very high volume good, so that gives you an idea of the quality of them. Backsaws are a different thing than panel and hand saws, and I could be wrong about my opinion on this, but I don't think anyone has made a saw as good as a #12 for a very long time, and I also don't think there is any benefit to a new expensive saw over a cleaned up #7 - they are really nice saws. (and the D8s and 16s are very good saws, I just always favor the saw with the tote off the back and less hang).

Do a little reading on the disstonian institute site (google it). Even a lot of the off-name disston saws were tapered, and a lot of their competitors made really really good saws, too. Saws that were marketed to professionals, say, in the 1890s - 1930s were really good saws. Saws earlier than that were also good, but it seems like they were a little less consistent (the ones I've had) and more likely to be bent or have varying hardness in the teeth, etc.

[george wilson]

A REASONABLY nice #12 just sold in classifieds for $210.00. Its handle was quite dark,and if I recall correctly,its blade had been cleaned up,but wasn't anything near mint.

Edit: Just looked it up on pg. 6 of classifieds. The handle was well worn,but not broken. Had been refinished. Sharpened by Daryl(sp?)

I have a real nice one,and am wondering what it is worth. I'll post it soon.

[Tony Zaffuto]

If one prefers the handle hang of a D8 over a #12 but wants the blade quality(and straight back)of the #12, then the #16 is the way to go. Blade quality and taper grind of the #16 is nearly identical to that of the #12.

The #16 is my favorite Disston. I have a number of them, plus had Mike W. make me his version of the #16. For me it's a combo of the let-in handle (handle hang) and the straight back. Although the Disstonian Institute alluded to a minor difference in steel, I doubt if any of us would ever be able to tell the difference.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

How noticable is the ground taper in practice? I've had been thinking of trying my hand at a Wenzloff panel saw kit, but notice the kits aren't tapered. They recommend a little extra set to get around that, but I wonder if it's worth the trade off; and if I shouldn't just wait an bite the bullet on a complete saw, or look into rehabbing an old one...

[Chris Fournier]

I have Pax rip and crosscut panel saws in 22". I bought both at Lee Valley who started carrying them just before I tried to import them from England myself. The handles are not LN calibre perhaps but they are no joke. The steel has proven to be as good as any I have used and I have LN saws in my shop. I learned to sharpen on these breasted saws and it was no big deal whatsoever. I highly recommend these saws as being great value. BTW sharpening your own handsaws is really quite easy if you take the time to understand the process, make a decent sharpening vise, use new files, have a good quality saw set and use a light consistent touch with the file.

[David Weaver]

How noticable is the ground taper in practice? I've had been thinking of trying my hand at a Wenzloff panel saw kit, but notice the kits aren't tapered. They recommend a little extra set to get around that, but I wonder if it's worth the trade off; and if I shouldn't just wait an bite the bullet on a complete saw, or look into rehabbing an old one...

I guess in theory it depends on how little set you want to use. If you like to use minimal set (which I think you'll appreciate if you use saws for a while), more taper is helpful. I have only ever used two saws that weren't tapered plate (well, two that were old). They weren't good enough quality to make a good assessment, and they had too much set to really be able to tell how little set you have to have before there's much of a performance difference.

By the way, Mike W is notoriously honest. You could ask him how big the difference is, i'll bet he'll tell you the straight answer.

[Chris Vandiver]

George,
The saw you are referring to is mine. It is no longer for sale(I have decided to keep it)and it has zero areas of pitting. The sharpening on this paticular saw is exemplary.

Cheers

[george wilson]

I wasn't intentionally running your saw down. Just commenting on how valuable they are now. The photos often do not show true condition. I could only see little black spots.

[john brenton]

I recently let the market decide on a very decent D-12 and it went for about $80. There were about 30 watchers, so I would say that the price was a pretty fair slice of reality. The handle was in good condition, no cracks. The plate was pretty black, but not pitted or rusted. Whoever got that saw and put a little work into it ended up with a nice little saw. What I liked about that D-12 was that when you hold it, you know you're holding the best saw ever made. The handle, the balance...it's just an awesome saw.

edit: Now that I think about it, I think there were something like 60 watchers. I don't remember exactly...but I think it was up that high. I was getting messages from Denmark and Australia as well.

Just so you know that that's what you're up against sometimes when you are looking at an item.

[David Weaver]

I think a lot of the value in them is in the asking, and due to print hype online. It's not like they're rare, but when you see places selling them for $400 with minimal cleaning and a resharpening (not in as good of a condition as the saw Chris listed), it makes people think they are. I think a large part of the woodworking tool market depends on a steady stream of newbies and folks who have read a little bit on the internet, but who haven't looked around much yet.

Then someone like walt comes along and sells three or four of them for $55-$65 each, needing only minor cleanup and a sharpening.

And i'm sure there are folks who frequent flea markets who have gotten them for a pittance, and still are getting them for cheap.

The only ones that are really rare are the ones that have never been used and that have not lost any shine, and never saw a spot of rust.

I'm pleased to have gotten the ones I got for the price I paid, but if they had been remotely close to the price that some of the online sellers think they're worth, I would be using #7s and D8s instead. There really isn't anything that a #12 does that a #7 doesn't do. The handle is just a little different and in the case of the 7s I have, the plate is a little thicker at the top of the spine.

[Tony Zaffuto]

To add what Dave just posted, the most I paid for a saw, was in 2003 or 2004, when I bought a #16 panel saw (IIRC the saw plate was 18", w/3 screws in the handle) for $45.00 and the saw would be considered "fine" condition. I can direct you to an antique mall near Chambersburg, PA (I was there the last weekend in January) where a dealer has at least a hundred saws in a pile for $4.00 each. Granted, most of these saws have some problems, but through digging, you can find a saw that will be an excellent user. I saw at least on #12 handle in the pile, although I didn't pull it out (I don't like the skewed back and I find the handle bulky-give me a #16!!!!). I bought a top of the line Atkins out of the pile, straight as an arrow, sharpened a number of times, but plenty of life left in it. Don't know why I bought it, cause I certainly didn't need it, but I liked the feel of the handle and it had a straight back!

In case anyone is in that area, it is the "Fayetteville Antique Mall", located East of Chambersburg, PA on Route 30. The dealer is in the brick building (5 buildings in the antique complex) on the right side of Rt. 30 heading East from Chambersburg.

[george wilson]

I have hardly been able to find anything worth buying in flea markets or on Ebay lately. Last Summer's flea market trip was pretty much a bust. Just a few years ago,I did find some nice things on Ebay,but not lately,except for people trying to unload their Bridge City stuff(never used!)

[Jonathan McCullough]

There are dozens and dozens upon scores of saws out there that are NOT Disston made or discussed anywhere on the internet that are easily, easily the equal of anything Disston made and are available for practically next to nothing. There are a lot of Disstons out there, and there are a lot of devotees, and there is a lot of information out there on Disston saws. I have many, and they're not my best saws. People who prefer Disstons because they give a consistent point of reference in comparing different saw styles should by all means stick with their Disstons. The best way to know whether a saw is any good, and I submit, the *only* way to know whether a saw is any good, is to clean it off, sharpen it, and use it. And even then, like any tool, it's probably going to be suitable for one thing more than any other, depending on the quality of the stel, how long it is, how it's sharpened, how many TPI, how much taper grinding there is, how used-up it is, how well or even whether the saw plate is properly tensioned. Anyone's welcome to disagree with me--we all have our individual tastes and judgments about whether certain characteristics are enough to make a difference--but I find that the differences between saws, as opposed to planes or chisels, to be readily apparent and an interesting study in itself. My best advice to someone looking for a saw is to keep an open mind and to remember that every saw really is different; enjoy the distinctions.

[David Weaver]

I have hardly been able to find anything worth buying in flea markets or on Ebay lately. Last Summer's flea market trip was pretty much a bust. Just a few years ago,I did find some nice things on Ebay,but not lately,except for people trying to unload their Bridge City stuff(never used!)

I think non-tool-specific auctions and flea markets where there will be one guy selling a certain tool are the way to go.

When I begged a 27 inch 1900 era simonds miter saw off my dad, he had gotten it for $3 from a (his terms) "guy who had a couple of boxes of saws" at a flea market, and always does for $3 per. I asked him how many large miter saws the guy had, and he said he had about 20 at any given time. That is how my dad "sharpens" a saw. He goes to the flea and pulls out the sharpest saw the guy has, dulls it, and then gets another saw each year or two.

But, anyway, the guy doesn't really have anything else he wants, just saws. I think those guys are about the only way you're going to find many tools now, because most people who used to sit with stands at fleas realize they can sell their stuff on an online store or on ebay much easier.

[Chris Vandiver]

Out here on the west coast vintage saws aren't so plentiful.

[john brenton]

I just see really weird things happening on ebay recently. Tools that I pretty much had free reign over in the past are going way too stinkin high. It makes no sense either. For example, I'll see a wooden plane with no collector value to speak of and no picture of the sole with 6 bids up to $30, PLUS a $15.00 shipping fee, when they don't know what could be wrong with that thing. It's a crap shoot, but for some reason people are flocking to it. I don't get it.

I understand scrubs...people want the scrub planes after seeing them in the magazines and they are fighting over the affordable woodies...but just regular old wood planes?




I have hardly been able to find anything worth buying in flea markets or on Ebay lately. Last Summer's flea market trip was pretty much a bust. Just a few years ago,I did find some nice things on Ebay,but not lately,except for people trying to unload their Bridge City stuff(never used!)

[greg Forster]

Were the handsaws George Wilson made for CW tapered?

[john brenton]

Good point. I have an Aetna brand panel saw that I would put up against any saw...even with the crummy job I did refiling (basically retoothing). Cost me about $2. I have never seen anything online about the Aetna brand.

But that's with everything though. The trusted brand gets the most attention. Sometimes they have a reason to be trusted and more desired, sometimes they just have better PR.

I personally think my Millers Falls no. 900 plane is just as good as any other metal plane, it spits out micro fine shavings just as good as any other plane I've ever tried...but to most people I think they would dismiss it as a failed second rate handyman's tool.


There are dozens and dozens upon scores of saws out there that are NOT Disston made or discussed anywhere on the internet that are easily, easily the equal of anything Disston made and are available for practically next to nothing.

[Jim Koepke]

I personally think my Millers Falls no. 900 plane is just as good as any other metal plane, it spits out micro fine shavings just as good as any other plane I've ever tried...but to most people I think they would dismiss it as a failed second rate handyman's tool.

Millers Falls actually made some high quality tools. There downfall may have been due to a late appearance in the market and a few bad management decisions.

Sargent also is a desirable brand for many tools.

Stanley did have the lions share of the market. That is likely why they are so sought after today. If you need some odd screw for a Stanley, it is not too hard a task to find one even though the threads are not standard.

Try to find an original lever cap for a Millers Falls or an odd screw for a Sargent and you may be out of luck.

There are a lot of great handsaws out there. They are just like old cars. Most people can bring to mind the image of a 1956 Chevy. How many can do the same for a 1956 Packard or Studebaker?

jtk

[george wilson]

The saws we made for Wmsbg. were not tapered. Jay Gaynor,curator of tools,said there was not enough taper in the original saws he measured to worry about it. Wenzloff disagrees,but I did what Jay wanted as toolmaker.

[john brenton]

Old Tool Heaven describes the Millers Falls 900 series as being part of the economy line. I bought one brand spanking new in the box for $20...and it's a remarkably good plane. Maybe I'm just comparing it to what an economy plane is in today's world, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. I've tried many smoothers, from ancient stanleys to the new goodies, and I don't see any real impediment to the Miller's Falls. It's not pretty and the handle is low quality, but the performance is great.

I never owned a metal bodied Sargent, but I've owned and rehabbed a few of their transition planes. They were great little planes, but you're right about the parts. I must have 20 or so chip breaker screws and not a single one fits the Sargents.

[David Weaver]

I can't imagine how a small maker would've done any kind of tapering similar to what disston did with their gigantic stone setup.

You could probably do it now with a sen or with very thoughtful sanding, but I can't imagine that either of those options was available in the 18th century. Maybe the abrasives, but I'd be surprised if there was good enough steel available here to do it with a sen.

[george wilson]

Wenzloff says they were tapered. I found Jane and Jay together at an archery meet,and told them about the controversy. Guess Jane was there when the saws were measured. She spoke right up that she knew nothing about saws. Probably didn't want to get into an argument with Jay. Jay stands upon his statement that they weren't tapered enough to worry about. And Jay was ALWAYS very particular about getting things just right. He said we had many months to measure the saws. Others had just a short time. Anyhow,I didn't have time to research tools. Jay usually supplied specs,sometimes originals. My job was to figure out how to make bunches of tools as quickly and accurately as possibly. And,if necessary,to work DOWN to the relative crudeness of some 18th.C. tools,like saw handles left with rasp or scraper marks on them. In the 19th.C.,makers got a lot better at making better finished tools,probably due to the advent of machinery.

[Jonathan Spool]

From what I have read, most of the small makers actually had their saws manufactured by either Disston, Atkins, or Simmonds. Hence access to tapered blades.

[Jonathan McCullough]

David, what's a "sen"?

[Chris Vandiver]

Jonathan,
A sen is a scraper for steel(to put it simply)used by Japanese saw makers to bring sawplate to thickness, taper, etc.