Are you a pro or hobbyist?

[Van Huskey]

What are you?

My definitions:

Pro: if I am not making sawdust I don't eat

Semi-pro: I actively market and sell items but still eat, maybe not as well, if i don't sell since I have another job

Quiet seller: I don't market but I do sell occasionally to friends etc

Hobbist: I may have sold an item or two but generally it is for the fun of it

None of the above, explain: for example I am a metalworker that got lost on the internet and hang out here because i like reading Sawstop threads

[Douglas Clark]

Definitely just a hobbyist right now, but eventually hoping to move into the semi-pro category in the next year or so, but in a very niche market manner. I am curious about the motivation behind this poll? What do you intend to reveal or discover?

[Rich Engelhardt]

None of the above...

& both (soon to be) pro and hobbiest.

While I still eat - a lot depends on whether there'a hambuger in the hambuger helper or not ;).

[Rick Moyer]

I always thought it would be beneficial sometimes to know what a poster's category is. It would give some relevence to their responses. For instance, when someone asks about a certain tool, a pro will most likely lean more heavily toward a top end tool. There are other examples that I can't remeber right now.

[Peter Quinn]

Well, I voted pro, because sawdust is my sole source of income. Luckily my wife works as well or I'd be flipping burgers at night to afford hamburgers at home. Of course I eat a lot of saw dust so I never go hungry.:D

[Cary Falk]

I guess I am a hobbiest. I used to work in a cabinet shop when I was in high school and college. I guess that makes me retired.:D I occasionally take odd jobs. Althought current status might fit into the Other: tool collector.

[james glenn]

I am a hobbyist who is just getting a real shop set up and more involved in woodworking.
But I have a hope of moving up to a quiet seller or even semi-pro eventually. I have a lot of
design ideas and carry a marble notebook for sketching. Mostly modern type stuff, but it's a dream.

[Mikail Khan]

Hobbyist with no plans to sell what I make.

I suspect that I would not enjoy woodworking as much is if I had to prepare quotes, work with a budget or finish my work by a certain deadline.

The items I build are for my home or for family members.

MK

[hank dekeyser]

Hey - you forgot the "weekend warrior - I spend more time thinking about it, than doing" catagory -


It almost sounds like your definitions are aimed at the folks that sell at craft fairs and the like ? I've seen a lot of guys making a living selling the basic shelf w/ hearts, and the like. To me that isnt a PRO - I believe the term is indicative of the talent and experience you posess, combined with your proficiency - NOT the ability to sell -

I get the general jist of the question, but am I a pro or hobbyist at what ? I'm assuming woodworking ? Am I a professional carpenter ? Still though, helps to get an idea of skill level of the people online here

[Steve Jenkins]

Been doing this full time for 29 years now.
I know I have mentioned before how much the word entrepreneur sounds like " I tripped in Manure". :-)

[johnny means]

Pro here.

I've always wanted to post this particular question myself. I think it would help qualify a lot of the opinions shared on this forum. By qualify I mean give a frame of reference to certain opinions. By qualify, I don't mean to make assumptions about ones level of knowledge. For example a pro may recommend a beissie fence due to stoutness and reliability while hobbiest may require the precision of one of those Incras. It helps to know where your infos coming from.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hobbyist........Rod.

[Jon McElwain]

I've been working wood since I was able to chew on a pencil, but have never made it my career. Well, I suppose there was few years that I worked at a drydock (lots of wooded boats) in college - I made a lot of sawdust, but I was more "grunt" than anything. It has been a dream to consider a career in woodworking, but I am not confident that I could make a decent living at it. I am a hobbyist.

[Paul Stoops]

Hobbyist, who finds woodworking a wonderfully refreshing creative activity!

[David Hostetler]

Hobbyist. I was an art major in college, and ended up in a very different career field. This is a great outlet for creative energy, and the stress that dealing with countless users puts on me. I tend to agree with the comment about frame of reference. For example my shop is filled with a LOT of stuff from Harbor Freight. If I were a working pro, I wouldn't be able to rely on that stuff for very long, but as a hobby woodworker I am sure this stuff will likely last until my kids inherit it... And I have no kids yet... (That's another project LOML and I are working on...). Now here is a wrinkle for you, there are certain items I have built in my home hobby workshop, that I use on a daily basis in my professional life, so that item, that I made in my shop helps me make a living... Does that change my answer?

[David Nelson1]

I had to answer as other. Since my shop is not complete and none of my project are complete or done to my satisfaction, I'll have to label myself as a hack.:o

[Gene Waara]

I consider myself a hobbyist but voted quiet seller as I have made and sold items to friends after they have seen similar items I have made for family. When I sell an item I only recover my costs and a few bucks to put toward a tool I have my eye on. I'm only a few years from retirement and plan to do more commission work in the future to keep busy. I'll only take projects that I enjoy and if I find it takes the fun out of it for me I'll quickly move back to being a hobbyist.

[Brian Effinger]

Had to think about it. Hobbyist or quiet seller. Hmm. Well, I've sold more than a couple turnings so I guess that makes me a quiet seller. :)

[Tom Walz]

I've made a little money woodworking but could never make a living at it. As with many here, I find it incredibly satisfying. There's just something inherently wonderful about wood.

My day job is material scientist / tool manufacturer. I try to contribute some technical background where I can. Mostly I really like the people here and find it tremendously educational.

[Tom Ewell]

Pro on-site and in the shop for close to 40.
From "the sill plates up" to remodels and commisioned woodwork and finish.

On-site tools need to be "pro grade".

Shop tools are diverse, good quality, cost effective, fairly accurate and can be upgraded with after market/homebrew setups. Not a full blown production shop by any means but capable.

Hobbyist only, it seems, to the family and friends.:)

[Caleb Larru]

What are you?

My definitions:

Pro: if I am not making sawdust I don't eat

Semi-pro: I actively market and sell items but still eat, maybe not as well, if i don't sell since I have another job

Quiet seller: I don't market but I do sell occasionally to friends etc

Hobbist: I may have sold an item or two but generally it is for the fun of it

None of the above, explain: for example I am a metalworker that got lost on the internet and hang out here because i like reading Sawstop threads

I refuse to answer as my home owner insurance agent my stumble onto this thread.............

[Mark Patoka]

I categorized myself as a Quiet Seller. I started selling some items to help pay for my tools and sold enough that I made it a legitimate small business but my day job puts food on the table. The business side is just enough to interfere with being a true hobbyist but gives me an excuse to spend hours out in the shop.

[James Baker SD]

Long time hobbyist (from early college days) till layoff. Tried valiantly to be a pro for a little over two years, but was burning through my savings too fast. Got a lucky break to get back into my field and had to say farewell to pro wood working. Got a really nice "hobbyiest" shop now as a result.

James

[Jim Rimmer]

Definitely a hobbyist. I see too many flaws in my finished work to feel good about charging for it. And with the speed at which I work I would be making about 25 cents an hour. :D

[Ray Newman]

I checked "hobbyist" as there was no category for "maker of expensive mistakes and copious amounts of sawdust"....

[Bob Riefer]

I checked hobbyist despite that I've only done construction work so far (building our kitchen, porch, barn, woodshop, bathroom etc....). But as soon as my kitchen is finished in a couple weeks, I'm finally going to start my first project!

[Kevin Gregoire]

is hobbyist a nice term for noob?
i have been building my shop for almost two years but havent made much except for some jigs, simple stuff like cribbage boards, cutting boards,
scrolled ornaments and crosses, and a bunch of bird houses that i have actually been able to sell.
im getting a router table assembled and i should be able to get to building more stuff.

[Van Huskey]

I guess I am a hobbiest. I used to work in a cabinet shop when I was in high school and college. I guess that makes me retired.:D I occasionally take odd jobs. Althought current status might fit into the Other: tool collector.

I didn't think of that and quite frankly that's where I fit currently until I get my new shop built, the room I had to work is packed solid with machines awaiting a new home.

[Chris Padilla]

I checked "hobbyist" as there was no category for "maker of expensive mistakes and copious amounts of sawdust"....

I dunno, Ray, but that is the very definition of hobbyist in my book...and in my garage-mah-hal....

[Frank Drew]

I made custom furniture professionally in my own shop for a little over 25 years. Before opening up on my own I worked at an architectural millwork, as a carpenter, and in a shop specializing in high quality 18th century reproductions.

But then I gave all that up to work as a Paramedic in an ER, wiping butts and runny noses, etc., living the dream :rolleyes:.

[Van Huskey]

Hey - you forgot the "weekend warrior - I spend more time thinking about it, than doing" catagory -


It almost sounds like your definitions are aimed at the folks that sell at craft fairs and the like ? I've seen a lot of guys making a living selling the basic shelf w/ hearts, and the like. To me that isnt a PRO - I believe the term is indicative of the talent and experience you posess, combined with your proficiency - NOT the ability to sell -

I get the general jist of the question, but am I a pro or hobbyist at what ? I'm assuming woodworking ? Am I a professional carpenter ? Still though, helps to get an idea of skill level of the people online here

Actually, I when I made the poll I wasn't remotely thinking about skill or quality of work. Someone could never sell a thing but be able to build Newport secretaries or Maloof rockers in their sleep and one could make a good living selling the simplest of craft items.

[Chris Rosenberger]

I marked Pro.
I make my living from remodeling, but I make alot of things in the shop for the remodeling jobs I do.

[Van Huskey]

I refuse to answer as my home owner insurance agent my stumble onto this thread.............


Ooops, I didn't think about that potential ramification but you are so right . One also has the issue of some machine warranties which reduce in length if you sell anything, one example is Powermatic which drops from 5 to 2 years.

[Chris Padilla]

...and one could make a good living selling the simplest of craft items.

I've been trying to sell sawdust and cut-offs for years (it is art!) but I still have my day job gosh darn it.....

[Casey Gooding]

I wish there was a category for former pro. I was a pro until I shattered my left arm last year. That pretty well ended my woodworking career.

[John Pratt]

For most of my life this was a hobby, but now I get paid to do it professionally. However, I still do it on the side as a hobby and the stuff I make, I never sell; I just give it away. For me the fun/excitement/desire/or whatever you want to call it, is in the build process. After a project is complete I give it away. At work I have to build what I am told, so it is nice to be able to be creative on the side. It is definitely nice to be able to get paid professionally to do you hobby.

[Roger Newby]

Hobbyist....if I want to stay alive by woodworking, I'll have to be a termite.

[Karl Brogger]

Hobbyist....if I want to stay alive by woodworking, I'll have to be a termite.


HA! That's funny there.



I do it for a living.

[Frank Drew]

One also has the issue of some machine warranties which reduce in length if you sell anything, one example is Powermatic which drops from 5 to 2 years. Interesting, I didn't know that about machinery.

But I paid a commercial insurance rate for my pickup truck although I walked to work, had a car for non-work driving, and really only used the truck at the beginning of a job to get materials and at the end to deliver the work, with a fair amount of time between the two. Nothing like a business that had a truck on the road all day every day, but I paid the same.

[hank dekeyser]

Actually, I when I made the poll I wasn't remotely thinking about skill or quality of work. Someone could never sell a thing but be able to build Newport secretaries or Maloof rockers in their sleep and one could make a good living selling the simplest of craft items.


So then by your definition, a person that makes a living by building rustic shelves from 3 pieces of barnwood stapled together is a professional - Again the question remains - A professional what? Based on the forums and posts of guys spending thousands of dollars on a bandsaw or jointer, etc. I was thinking that the "professional" slot would be getting more votes ?

Just because I have a cape and a funny hat, doesn't make me a bullfighter (or superman)

would you trust your car to a "professional" mechanic simply because he makes a living doing oil changes ? Or because he has a big giant fancy Snap-On toolbox ?

Not trying to offend anyone - my definition of "professional" is far more encompassing than that- Maybe a better question to poll would be "how many hours a week do you spend in your shop working with wood" ? or "do you spend more time working with wood, or trying to figure out HOW to work with wood"


I just noticed this thread has been viewed like 900 times, yet has less than 200 votes ??
my 2 cents

[Charles Goodnight]

Hobbyist. Really a weekend warrior. I have no interest in making money from my woodworking. I have donated a few items for sale at charities.

[Don Jarvie]

Quiet Seller. Been on the dole for the past 4 months so I have supplemented my income doing small jobs and picking up some furniture jobs. Making some radiator covers and the same client wants a kitchen cabinet.

Would I love to do this professionaly, yes, but realisticly I could never make enough to support my family. Picking up some side money doing a piece here and there is in the cards.

[Keith Westfall]

I don't think that responses should "be geared" to the level of suspected ability or level of skill.

I have a very good friend that does exceptional work, for self, family and others. Doesn't charge so strictly a hobbyist. But his skill will stand up against any out there.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that if one is not "a pro" that he/she lacks skill, good tools or exceptional ability.

Just my .02 cents...

[Tom Ewell]

.....Don't make the mistake of thinking that if one is not "a pro" that he/she lacks skill, good tools or exceptional ability.

Why would anyone make that mistake?

[Keith Westfall]

My comments were in response to post #4 ...


I always thought it would be beneficial sometimes to know what a poster's category is. It would give some relevence to their responses. For instance, when someone asks about a certain tool, a pro will most likely lean more heavily toward a top end tool. There are other examples that I can't remeber right now.

[Gene Howe]

Hank,
I guess my definition of "Professional" is a mite more narrow. To my way of thinking a professional is one who earns income from a pursuit. Or, one who has been trained in a "Profession" and earns his income because of his training. I've never confused "Professional" (noun or adjective) with quality, ability or competence.
We all know "professionals" in (pick your field) who are hacks....or worse. And, somehow, they keep their jobs.
When it comes to woodworking, I'm somewhere between a hobbyist and a hack. But, I enjoy it and if a $1000 jointer would increase my enjoyment, I'd consider it a good investment. Life's too short for junk tools.

[hank dekeyser]

OK, I looked up "professional" and all I can say is , I think this and many other words lack a "true definition" so to speak. By definition someone who flips burgers for a living would be a "professional cook" - it seems a bit silly to me, that simply because of ones means of monetary gain (what they do to make a living) would then qualify them and raise them to the level of being a "professional" -
Also then by definition, regardless of the level of expertise, knowledge, and abilities -if you don't make a living doing it, you are not a "professional" which would mean an unemployed brain surgeon is not a professional unles he is gainfully employed to do so.

I have to disagree entirely in that montary gain is one of the least determining factors which would define someone as being a "professional" Skill, talent, competency, knowledge, experience, attitude, and how you carry/present yourself in general are the most important factors when labeling someone a "professional"

Based on the definition of "professional" everyone should have checked the "professional" box, since we all make a living doing something, therefore we are all "professionals" at whatever it is we do to make a living ??
My current "profession" would be a "commercial and residential building construction structural framing assembly technician" wow I am fancy.
And by definition when I go to my shop to build my kitchen cabinets, or dining room set, or patio furniture, or any of the other many things I am more than cabable of designing and building, I fall into the catagory of being a mere "hobbyist" - BUT if I were to sell all those items to pay for a new kitchen , dining set, etc. I would then be a "professional"

Am I a "woodworker" or a "craftsman" or a "carpenter" or ?? Just because someone has a job in (insert trade or occupation) doesn't make them a "professional" - I personally hold a "professional" to a higher level of standards than the current definition states - When you meet a "professional" you just know it, regardless of their vocation

[Frank Drew]

We had a similar discussion a year or more ago, whether the term professional meant doing it (whatever) for a living, or whether it implied a higher level of dedication, skill, etc.

I'm in the employment camp; even if you only sling hamburgers in a diner you can call yourself a professional cook. Not a chef, maybe, but a cook, short order cook, whatever.

[Van Huskey]

Hank, if you want to get down to the old school "true" meaning of professional then there are NO jobs working with wood that qualify. They are occupations that require you to go to a "professional" school and hold a degree in areas like law, medicine etc.

In the end I think you are confusing professional with professionalism. Woodworking of all sorts falls into the categories of art, craft and trade. I simply wanted to know who relies of woodworking to make a living and I tried to craft my poll as such. I don't care whether they are selling wooden pull toys at the flea market or Newport secretaries in galleries. Your problem is one of the English language unlike some languages such as German we tend to use the same word for multiple meanings and one has to derive which meaning is from the context of usage.

If you don't like my poll feel free to start your own, they are free! :)

As for the number of views vs the responses you have to consider how this forum works. One must be a member to vote in a poll, but guests may open a thread and read it and at any given time there are significantly more guests on this site than members (just look at the bottom of the page when out in the main forum area) each of the guest views count toward the total views just like a member. Currently there are 266 members and 661 guests on the forum.

In the end if you look at the noun I used in my poll it was not professional, it was pro. Pro has a different connotation than professional and fit more accurately with my question.

As for the money one spends on machines and tools I don't see that having any bearing on this question. Some of the best woodworkers I know have meager shops and tools, many of them have made a living for decades solely on producing furniture. Many people spend huge amounts of money on their hobbies, for some a $4,000 Italian bandsaw is not a big deal, others have to fret over a $400 Rigid. I have a friend with over $40,000 in Mac and Snap-On tools and builds maybe 2 engines a year for his hobby drag cars, another friend who runs in the same class bought 90% of his tools from Harbor Freight and it all depends on the night as to who is faster.

Your question is philosophical, mine is more on an IRS level.

[Jon Grider]

I'm a semi or part time pro. I spend upwards of 25 hours per week making wooden items that people ask me to build for them for a pre-agreed upon price. This includes furniture items, cabinets, and sometimes crafty type things like rolling pins, cutting boards, boxes, etc. My woodworking I take seriously, but I do everything I can to keep it enjoyable.This offends some folks sometimes as I may turn down a project that may be something that would not end up paying decently or it's someone's concept that I don't think I would be proud of putting my name on. My woodworking supplements my income from my day job, and helps me feed my addiction to beautiful wood.

[hank dekeyser]

Thanks for the clarification - why didnt you say so in the firstplace ?
Then I can assume the question becomes "Do you make enough money working with wood to support yourself / family ?"
Yes=pro
no = hobbyist

Sorry, I automatically assumed that "pro" was short for "professional"
I forget that more than just members surf through here also

I wasn't really asking a question, just looking for clarification of what the question was.

[Van Huskey]

Thanks for the clarification - why didnt you say so in the firstplace ?
Then I can assume the question becomes "Do you make enough money working with wood to support yourself / family ?"
Yes=pro
no = hobbyist



I thought I did say that to begin with. Maybe I am being thick, contentious or both but how much different is:

"My definitions: Pro: if I am not making sawdust I don't eat"

to

"Do you make enough money working with wood to support yourself / family ?"


Different words but to me they mean the same thing, I have to bend the words pretty hard for them to mean anything different.

[hank dekeyser]

Actually, I when I made the poll I wasn't remotely thinking about skill or quality of work. Someone could never sell a thing but be able to build Newport secretaries or Maloof rockers in their sleep and one could make a good living selling the simplest of craft items.


I thought I did say that to begin with. Maybe I am being thick, contentious or both but how much different is:

"My definitions: Pro: if I am not making sawdust I don't eat"

to

"Do you make enough money working with wood to support yourself / family ?"


Different words but to me they mean the same thing, I have to bend the words pretty hard for them to mean anything different.

Maybe I too am being Thick , or ? Maybe it's more of my pre-concieved notion of what I think a "pro" is ? Like I said- if someone makes a living selling 3 pieces of stuff stapled together, their answer would be "pro" regardless of what I "think of" when I hear the word "pro"

Yeah I'm pretty thick too,(Belgian and German) but at the same time you did ask a pretty open ended question (in my mind at least)

I just automatically thought someone would pose such a question to gauge the skill level/ expertise of those that answer , rather than the amount of money they make. For me, working with my hands , be it wood, metal, wrenching, drawing,etc. are all things I enjoy doing and it simply doesnt matter how much I make doing it. It is a way of life and in my blood to do what I Love and Love what I'm doing.

[Van Huskey]

Maybe I too am being Thick , or ? Maybe it's more of my pre-concieved notion of what I think a "pro" is ? Like I said- if someone makes a living selling 3 pieces of stuff stapled together, their answer would be "pro" regardless of what I "think of" when I hear the word "pro"

Yeah I'm pretty thick too,(Belgian and German) but at the same time you did ask a pretty open ended question (in my mind at least)

I just automatically thought someone would pose such a question to gauge the skill level/ expertise of those that answer , rather than the amount of money they make. For me, working with my hands , be it wood, metal, wrenching, drawing,etc. are all things I enjoy doing and it simply doesnt matter how much I make doing it. It is a way of life and in my blood to do what I Love and Love what I'm doing.

First, Hank I am smiling and if we were sitting together I would be offering you another cold beverage!

You say my question was open ended, I don't see it. But, I do think a question asking someone to rate their skill would be VERY open ended, since the criteria are much more subjective compared to my question which could be answered objectively by looking at a persons properly prepared 1040. Plus, I would never ask someone to quantify their skill since where I grew up that would be akin to asking a lady how old she was or how much money someone makes.

In the end in my mind if you buy the groceries with your woodworking money you are a pro, your level of professionalism is between "you" and "your" customers.

[Don Morris]

I started out to make my own traditional bows and arrows. That needed a drill press and bandsaw. After a while I realized with a table saw I could make some furniture like my father-in-law did as a cabinet maker. A man whom I admired and loved the things he created. After I got the TS, making the furniture and some other things, was more fun. So that aspect became the main focus and there's no doubt I'm now a serious woodworking hobbyist. I now have all the main heavy duty equipment for woodworking including 8" jointer, cabinet saw, all the handtools, many handplanes, you need to create lots of dust. All of it for the family. Modeling my self after my father-in-law who "did it all". I try to do everything too. The only thing around the house I don't mess with is 220v stuff because I worry that might kill me. I've made a lot of mistakes, but saved myself a lot of money in the long run. LOML thinks like me.

[anthony wall]

used to be a pro cabinet maker ,now only a hobbyist neanderthal style (not from choice) as i cannot buy good workshop machines where i live

[Ole Anderson]

Definitely a hobbyist. At the rate I complete a project, I would have to subsist on Spam and live in a tent if I were to depend on woodworking to support my wife and I.

[Myk Rian]

Van;

Haven't you learned yet that these polls open up boxes of noodles? :)

[Tom Ewell]

... your level of professionalism is between "you" and "your" customers.....

Exactly
The "pro" needs to relate to the customer from concept/design to installation/delivery while under the pressure of deadline, budget, quality of craftsmanship, code adherence and risk of livelihood.

The most fun I've had on custom woodworking jobs has been with skilled customers who have nice gear in the basement or garage. They're creative, communicative and appreciative, they just don't do or don't have the time to do what I'm there for. Quite often, after work, we'd sit down with a beverage and pick brains.

The first SCMS I ever used belonged to one of these customers and he borrowed a D-handle Bosch..... we both had new additions to our tool kits shortly thereafter.

[Caspar Hauser]

Pro. Cupboard maker, interior joinery etc.

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

Both?
Day job is at a shop that does commercial millwork and cabinets.
At home I have a fairly well equipped shop. I occasionally do some paying work at home, but only if it pays very well. Unlike a lot of hobbyists, I'm not cheap. :)

My hobby actually led me to my day job.

[Tony Bilello]

I show myself as "I am a Pro" although I don't quite fit your definition. I work offshore in the Gulf of Mexico as a Protective Coatings Inspector normally 10 months a year with a 2 week "On" and 2 weeks home schedule. When not offshore, I work my shop full time. That means at least 5 days a week. When in my 'Shop mode' I have 1 full time employee, 1 part-time employee and 1 wife as office and logistical help. I lease a commercial building in a small commercial/industrial complex. In addition to my personal automobile, I use my P/U truck for nothing but lumber and supplies and also own a 16' Box Truck fully lettered for furniture pick-ups and deliveries. Ithink thats as pro as one could get.

[Ron Bontz]

I checked quiet seller. After about 30 years I find myself spending more time doing things for others to help support the addiction. Rather than just myself. "I'll get to it as soon as I can, sweetheart." "That's a really neat tool. I gotta have it"

[Bruce Wrenn]

I've been filing a schedule "C" and "SE" with my income taxes for about forty years now, so I guess that makes me a pro.

[Jack Burgess]

Definite hobbyist. Just retired and making wooden toys etc. Sell occasionally at craft fairs to help cover cost of wheels and supplies, etc.

Toymaker

[Tony Bilello]

.........In the end I think you are confusing professional with professionalism. Woodworking of all sorts falls into the categories of art, craft and trade. I simply wanted to know who relies of woodworking to make a living and I tried to craft my poll as such. I don't care whether they are selling wooden pull toys at the flea market or Newport secretaries in galleries. Your problem is one of the English language unlike some languages such as German we tend to use the same word for multiple meanings and one has to derive which meaning is from the context of usage.

If you don't like my poll feel free to start your own, they are free! :)

Your question is philosophical, mine is more on an IRS level.

Van, this can get frustrating at times. The vast majority of people on here understand exactly what your intentions are. Then come the literalists. :)

[Larry Edgerton]

I am a pro that can't wait for the day I am just a very well equiped hobbiest......

[Tony Bilello]

I am a pro that can't wait for the day I am just a very well equiped hobbiest......

Now THAT is living the dream.

[john bettler]

I make custom stairs and railings. It pays the bills so I guess I'm a pro.

[Rod Sheridan]

I understood the implication that "pro" meant a person who earned their living at it.

Having said that, I don't consider wood working a "profession" as there isn't a standards body that can take away your ability to work in that field. To me, that's the definition of "profession".

regards, Rod.

[Dave MacArthur]

When discussing ideas, we must all use the same definitions of words... this is the function of a dictionary. While some people may have mistakenly perceived a word to mean something outside of accepted definitions, their erroneous belief does not in fact change the actual meaning of the word. In this case, while "professional" has been used by some to infer a high level of skill or quality, or work performed to a higher standard than average, this is not in fact what the word means. A quick google definition search reveals that accepted definition of the word is a person who is paid to perform a task, or a person engaging in an occupation where specialized training is generally required to do the task. Neither of those accepted definitions talk to the quality of the work done or performance standards. Very often a word's actual meaning will be misused by marketing, in an attempt to use valid words legal for the ad, but give a completely different meaning in the mind of the target. In this way the word "professional" has been implied to mean work to a higher standard, but in fact just meant getting paid for the job... In a similar way, the word "premium" doesn't actually mean better quality, it just means an extra charge for something... the better quality is often inferred as the basis for the "premium", but is not actually part of the definition.

It's due to the misconception of words that most technical writing includes a list of definitions or glossary, and in court arguments words are strictly construed per their accepted definitions-- discussions just don't work when one person is using a meaning of the word that no one else is.

"On topic" however is clearly defined, so I'll say ,"hobbyist". ;)

[Larry Edgerton]

Having said that, I don't consider wood working a "profession" as there isn't a standards body that can take away your ability to work in that field. To me, that's the definition of "profession".

regards, Rod.

Really?

So say Richard Wolf who builds beautiful stairs that perhaps 1 in 100,000 people can do, is not a professional?

George Wilson, who seems to be able to anything, is not a professional?

So we must rely on a government bureacracy staffed with people that don't know their heiny from a hole in the ground to decide who is a professional?

Rather an elitist point of view it seems to me.

By the way, according to your criteria I am a professional, licenced by the state, who can have my licence revoked, and yet there are people on here that I envy their talent who have no licence, and make a living at it. They have made a huge commitment in time to become what they are, and a sizeable investment in equipment, and they produce objects of unquestional beauty. To me they are professionals, licence or no.......

[Rod Sheridan]

Larry, I'm in complete agreement with you that the people you mentioned are extraordinarily skilled, and produce world class work far above the stuff I'm capable of.

My definition of professional doesn't detract from their capabilities at all, merely illustrates that I could call myself a cabinet maker, when I would probably be unable to pass guild requirements.

I disagree regarding the "government" statement, most professional acreditation organizations are non governmental. and of course the earliest professional organizations were craft guilds.

Craft guilds were member run organizations that determined if you could be a journeyman or master cabinet maker for example, and therefore were entitled to ply your trade, employ other craft people, or teach the craft.

It was a method of setting minimum standards of education, experience and abilities.

I could work at the IKEA factory loading sheet goods into a machine, and call myself a professional wood worker by your definition. (Earns a living at wood working). I would hardly be what I consider a professional.........Regards, Rod.

[Tim Livingston]

My grandfather designed and built wooden boats then moved on to building fine houses. He was an artist with wood and he really didn't have the greatest power tools, he would turn spindles on a South Bend metal lathe and his table saw had a wooden top but he could make anything and make it look perfect.

Me I work at a power plant but love working in my shop and building things for myself and family. I'm just a hobbyist, I would starve if I did this for a living.

[Larry Edgerton]

Larry, I'm in complete agreement with you that the people you mentioned are extraordinarily skilled, and produce world class work far above the stuff I'm capable of.

My definition of professional doesn't detract from their capabilities at all, merely illustrates that I could call myself a cabinet maker, when I would probably be unable to pass guild requirements.

I disagree regarding the "government" statement, most professional acreditation organizations are non governmental. and of course the earliest professional organizations were craft guilds.

Craft guilds were member run organizations that determined if you could be a journeyman or master cabinet maker for example, and therefore were entitled to ply your trade, employ other craft people, or teach the craft.

It was a method of setting minimum standards of education, experience and abilities.

I could work at the IKEA factory loading sheet goods into a machine, and call myself a professional wood worker by your definition. (Earns a living at wood working). I would hardly be what I consider a professional.........Regards, Rod.

Ok, I see your point to a degree. What you are talking about though has all but disappeared, not because no one is willing to invest the time, but because of market forces that are far beyond the control of any craftsman. The market for the type of wooden objects that were built by the guild members is all but gone. I can build cabinets with the traditional methods, and on rare occasions have been commisioned to do so. But it takes more time, time being money, and an amount of money that no one is willing to spend. My client list is mostly the captains of industry, and even they do not generally know the difference, and if they do they do not care. The whole concept of having a piece of woodwork commisioned that will be passed down through generations has been lost. My grandmother, and I'm sure your own looked at the furnishings in their home in a different way. It was not a disposable item, it was a source of pride to own something of true quality.

If you take your average small shop cabinet maker, by and large they are doing a better job and creating a better product than any of the cabinet factories that pump out melamine boxes with fairly nice looking fronts, but they are struggling with the balance between craftsmanship and the bottom line. Are they professionals? In my estimation, yes, they are. They are producing a wood product that is what the majority of the buying public demands, and market forces dictate what we make. Yes there are a few firms that have carved out a niche market in fine woodworking, but there is not enough demand that everyone could do that even if they choose.

Also, if you look back at the standards of living of the average craftsman back in the guild days, I think that not being appreciated is not a new thing. It was not a sure way to get rich then either.

I would agree that a guy that slides sheets of melamine on a undercut table is not a professional. I have toured a modern cabinet factory, and saw what I was up against. That coupled with the American concept of greed where they have to have more, in a volume sense, instead of more quality, coupled with OSHA made me get out of the cabinet business for the the most part. That same concept is why we have thousands if not millions of acres of oversized home with little or no quality, but all of the appropriate "features" glued on. I used to give potential customers a copy of Sarah Susanks's "The not so big House" to read before they commited to their monstrosity. They never got it........

Frusterating..........

Larry

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes Larry it is frustrating, and I agree with all your comments.

My FIL was probably the last of the typical journeyman cabinet makers, having received his papers just after WWII in a small English town called Barnstaple.

The firm that apprenticed him was called Shapland and Petters in case you're interested in a little internet journey.

John moved to Canada in the early 1970's and retired about a decade ago. I wish he would sell me his journeyman's chest, and the tools it contains, as he no longer uses them, and they will slowly deteriorate in his basement. He often spoke about how many hours wages, or weeks of work it took to purchase a plane, etc. At the time the number of hand tools that you were expected to own was a substantial financial investment, at a time when you weren't earning much money.

Yes, many small firms make excellent products, however as you indicated that concept of "furniture for life" doesn't seem to exist anymore. My parents were married during WWII, which makes me think that the bedroom suite of furniture that will soon be going to Goodwill is aproximately 65 years old. It was well made, relatively expensive furniture, however my parents would have considered it a once in a lifetime purchase.

I'm just completing an an A&C tile topped coffee table for my living room, to go with the Morris chairs etc. One of the people Diann works with asked her what she was going to do with the table in 10 years. Diann didn't understand the question until it was explained as "You know, in ten years when you re-decorate and want new furniture".

Diann had a hard time explaining to her that the stuff I made, along with the one Stickley piece in the living room was for life, something her co-worker couldn't understand.

Yes, we have become for the most part, a "quantity over quality" society. Since William Morris was railing against the same concepts of shoddy mass produced items, I guess not much changes in time.

Thanks for all your comments Larry, informative and educational..............Regards, Rod.

[David Helm]

Both! Many years a pro, now a hobbyist.

[Ed Morgano]

While I have sold a few items, I consider myself to be an avid learner of the craft. I've been doing woodworking since I was about 16 and I'm now 69. It could be said that I'm a slow learner. :-)

[Van Huskey]

While I have sold a few items, I consider myself to be an avid learner of the craft. I've been doing woodworking since I was about 16 and I'm now 69. It could be said that I'm a slow learner. :-)

Or just recognize that we never stop having opportunities to learn. It is not possible to know everything about even the seemingly simplest subjects and even if one were to master all the KNOWN facts about a subject what we know as humans will change about the subject by tomorrow morning!

[Ron Barnes]

Definitely classed as a hobbyist, but do sell an occasional item. Still work full time so can afford vegetables to go with the saw dust.

[Larry Edgerton]

Yes Larry it is frustrating, and I agree with all your comments.

My FIL was probably the last of the typical journeyman cabinet makers, having received his papers just after WWII in a small English town called Barnstaple.

The firm that apprenticed him was called Shapland and Petters in case you're interested in a little internet journey.

John moved to Canada in the early 1970's and retired about a decade ago. I wish he would sell me his journeyman's chest, and the tools it contains, as he no longer uses them, and they will slowly deteriorate in his basement. He often spoke about how many hours wages, or weeks of work it took to purchase a plane, etc. At the time the number of hand tools that you were expected to own was a substantial financial investment, at a time when you weren't earning much money.

Yes, .\

Rod

I did a couple of hours of reading so far on Shapland and Petters. Seems to be a lot of mystery about their business, and some interesting furniture. I found one desk that I really like, and I may have to make a copy of it. I will read more....

I have a daughter by the name of Devon, so named because that is where her grandparents are from. He went on to be a panel beater for Bentley until he migrated to the USA.

[Dennis French]

Well, I'm a recently retired Professor of Jewelry and Metals Design, who started seriously designing and building in wood and mixed media in the late 80's, early 90's. Today, I work primarily in wood. I make one of a kind pieces and occasionally sell. I have also done a fair amount of commission work. I would agree with an earlier poster who felt that "selling"is not necessarily the primary criteria for considering oneself to be a pro. Knowledge of the skills required within a craft, and being able to execute at a very high level of craftsmanship is, I believe, the hallmark of a pro. And I'm still learning...everyday!
Please visit my website at, www.frenchdesignstudio.com

[Gene Crain]

pro hobbiest...

plantasymaderas punto com

[Stephen Mines]

I started my second career as 'woodworker' at age 30 in 1970. Apprenticed for only 6 months (mainly I wanted to learn the machinery plus basics) then opened a little shop; built a little shop on a friends stores asphalt parking lot, that worked for a year, then rented a storefront (about 600 sq ft); next was a 1200 sq rented 'studio', where I was learning by doing, building a customer list, kind feeling my way into where I wanted to go with it. I developed a small line of American and French reproductions, got established in a couple of showrooms (Los Angeles and San Francisco) and business took off. I moved to a 10,000 sq ft bldg which I leased for 10 years, building a pretty solid 'hand line production', high end furniture making business, making what I enjoyed, innovating where I could. After 18 years I had 15 employees who got weekends off while I always seemed to work weekends to make ends meet; I downsized to just me, doing my specialty which was woodturning. I've worked ever since pretty much as a one man band, using some help only when absolutely necessary. Woodworking for me has not only been fun, but it's been a wild, very rewarding ride.

[Dave Zellers]

Awesome story.

And I thought I was old! In 1970 I was only 19! :cool:
:)

[Leo Graywacz]

Definitely a pro. Been working in my shop as a legal business since 1997 and in a shop for 12 years before that. Usually in the shop 50+ hours a week and lately I have been there 65+. Wife works too. My money comes in big chunks many weeks apart from each other. Her paycheck fills in the voids.

[Dave Zellers]

LRG WoodCrafting (Google it )

I did.



Whoa. Definitely a pro. Very nice.

Very, very nice.

[Leo Graywacz]

Thanks Dave. Been at it for a good an amount of time. Now I do almost everything. From ordering the wood, design, doors, drawers, cabinets, finishing and installation. Sure does burn up a lot of time for a one man show.

[Chuck Walker]

Hobbyist may be a kind term for me!

[Mauricio Ulloa]

I am a professional woodturner and I have a penturning business in costa rica