Gluing raised panel doors

[joe milana]

So what's your technique? I like to cover all mating surfaces of a cope/stick joint with glue so they don't open up over time. The problem I have is that I am getting squeeze out in the corners and gluing the panel in place. I don't realize this 'till the panel cracks, well, about this time of year :eek:. I try to "be careful" as others say...but looking for ideas. Lately I have been using t-88 epoxy because it actually "lubricates" the joint, allowing for adjustment during assembly. The problem with epoxy is it's thick and difficult to spread a thin layer with an acid brush.

[Neal Clayton]

glue needs pressure to bind that well. if squeeze out is gluing the panels enough to cause them to crack from movement the panels fit too tight.

furthermore, panels should be prefinished and glue doesn't stick to any finish as well as it does bare wood.

[Peter Quinn]

Use less glue. And stay just a bit back from the corners. I glue the whole coped end of the rails lightly, but only glue the molded faces of the stile, not the grooves, and I stay back just a bit from the inside corner of the cope and stick intersection on both sides of the joint. I mark the corners intersection on the face of the doors during dry fit so i know where to stop the glue and go light. Also, about 10 minutes after clamping I bump the panels around to make sure they move and break any slight glue squeeze bond that may have found a panel tongue. I don't agree with Neil, properly fitted panels that don't rattle can easily be glued in without additional pressure just due to swelling of wood fibers. It's not a fiercely strong bond, but can certainly lead to cracking.

[Bryan Cowing]

I now use a 1/4" rubber ball , called space balls to hold the panel centre in the frame. You can also cut the corner of the panel off. I brush on the glue, stay back from the inside corner a 1/4". Glue on the panel corners, will crack off one corner in the future as the panel shrinks.

[Philip Rodriquez]

I prefinish the panels and, after 10 to 15 minutes, I also bump the panels around. IMHO, a prefinished panel has many benefits. Glue won't stick an you won't have any unfinished wood show up in the winter time.

[Chip Lindley]

Use less glue. And stay just a bit back from the corners. I glue the whole coped end of the rails lightly, but only glue the molded faces of the stile, not the grooves, and I stay back just a bit from the inside corner of the cope and stick intersection on both sides of the joint. I mark the corners intersection on the face of the doors during dry fit so i know where to stop the glue and go light.

+1 on Less Glue! I have never had problems with panels splitting in raised panel doors. I apply glue to about 3/4 of the top/bottom rail tongues and assemble the doors with two pipe clamps. I figure squeeze-out will fill most of the rest of the joint. A foam Space Ball at each corner of the panel also dams up the joint to prevent glue sticking to the panel corner.

[Michael MacDonald]

not to go off in a different direction, but I think it is is informative to the OP: if you just pre-finish the panel, how do you finish the rails and stiles without having some impact on the panels? Are the panels finished "all-the-way" with a colarant and then several coats of varnish before glue-up? When you finish the rails and stiles after glue-up, how do you get the inside edges without impacting the finish of the panels?

I tried to pre-finish recently, and was not very happy with the results... I think I was doing something wrong.

+1 to spaceballs... I also shift the panels around periodically for 15 to 20 minutes after glue up.

[Frank Drew]

I prefinish the panels and, after 10 to 15 minutes, I also bump the panels around. IMHO, a prefinished panel has many benefits. Glue won't stick an you won't have any unfinished wood show up in the winter time.

I agree with Neal and Philip on the advantages of prefinishing the panels.

[joe milana]

not to go off in a different direction, but I think it is is informative to the OP: if you just pre-finish the panel, how do you finish the rails and stiles without having some impact on the panels? Are the panels finished "all-the-way" with a colarant and then several coats of varnish before glue-up? When you finish the rails and stiles after glue-up, how do you get the inside edges without impacting the finish of the panels?

I tried to pre-finish recently, and was not very happy with the results... I think I was doing something wrong.

+1 to spaceballs... I also shift the panels around periodically for 15 to 20 minutes after glue up.

Good point on pre-finished panels. I typically do painted hard maple cabinets, so I usually put a couple coats of primer on the perimeter of the panel, then do my glue-up, then finish the entire door. I see alot of failing cope/stick joints on the cabinets I tear out, hence my fear of going easy with the glue, especially on larger doors.

[John TenEyck]

I prefinish my panels with paint or stain and clear coat, then glue them up in the frames using space balls. Then I mask off the panels and finish the frames the same as the panels. Then I remove the masking and shoot one or two final coats on everything. Takes a little more time, but I rest easy knowing the panels aren't going to show an ugly unfinished line down the road.

[Richard Amabile]

I am in the process right now of building some frame and panel headboards/footboards. The rails and stiles are mortise and tennon construction. Based on comments in previous threads I decided to dry fit everything and then finish the individual pieces before gluing the pieces together. My intent is to sand, put on a wash coat of shellac, stain with a water based stain, put on at least four coats of Waterlox and then glue the pieces together using spaceballs to inhibit movement and cracking of the panels.

Now I am wondering if that is the best approach or if all that material on the parts before the final fitting will cause panels to bind and/or crack when putting them together.

Any views on this would be appreciated. For example, should I just put one coat of finish on all the pieces, then glue them together and put the remaining coats of finish on after they dry? By the way, I am not spraying. I am using brushes for the finishing.

[Adam Shapiro]

I'm sure others have more experience then I do, but I've had success pre-finishing the panels and knocking off the corners. Depending on the size of the panel, I usually take off about 1/8" which give the Tightbond squeeze out space to go without gluing the panel in place. I learned that from someone here.

[Michael MacDonald]

it seems like prefinishing the panels is the main approach to avoiding inadvertant panel adhesion (IPA, for the professionals. not prefinishing all the rails and styles... then glue up with various tips and tricks to manage the glue squeeze out. (I like to insert the tenon part way, and then us a dry brush to wick away any excess glue before fully inserting the tenon.) Less glue near the panel corner is another idea. Knocking off the corners of the mortise or tenon to create space for the glue is another idea... I am sure there are others as well. Panel rattling is resolved throug space balls, but I guess they also keep the panel from settling into the corner and coming in contact with glue. Several folks shift the panels for a time after glue up to keep them loose...

and then after the glue dries, the rails/stiles are finished... with the panels masked. And then perhaps a coat or more over the entire structure.

this seems to be the best practice... am I missing anything? I have also tried finishing the railes and stiles separately. While that worked OK, it was a lot of separate pieces to work on. and there was limited opportunity for fixing oopsies in the joints.

[Neal Clayton]

that's pretty much it. 1-2 coats on the panels before assembly, 1-2 coats on the rails/stiles after with the panels masked, then 1-2 coats on the whole to blend everything.

the other (and primary) benefit of the rubber spacers is ensuring perfect center on the panels. if they are off center when the whole is assembled they will move more, and 9 times out of 10 take an edge of finish with them.

[keith ouellette]

not to go off in a different direction, but I think it is is informative to the OP: if you just pre-finish the panel, how do you finish the rails and stiles without having some impact on the panels? Are the panels finished "all-the-way" with a colarant and then several coats of varnish before glue-up? When you finish the rails and stiles after glue-up, how do you get the inside edges without impacting the finish of the panels?

I tried to pre-finish recently, and was not very happy with the results... I think I was doing something wrong.

+1 to spaceballs... I also shift the panels around periodically for 15 to 20 minutes after glue up.


I pre finish all the parts to the door. I have done this on 3 projects and it worked perfect for me. I just made certain not to get any stain or clear coat on any part that is going to except glue. I started doing this because I always had a problem with squeeze out. So far nothing has fallen apart. I pre fit everything and keep the parts from one door separate from the others. It takes a little planning and seems wrong but it works for me.

[Carpenter Mark]

I rub the corners of the panel with paraffin wax, the kind you buy at the grocery store for canning. Haven't had a panel split yet.

[joe milana]

I'm wondering how you guys that pre-finish all parts before assembly manage to not damage the door edge while clamping. Especially when using pva glue and there is a door edge profile. By the time I get all the glue "carefully" spread, parts partially assembled, and get 'em in the clamps, I can barely get the joints to come together. And once together, there is no adjusting. For this reason, I make my doors slightly over-sized, then trim after glue-up.
Attached is a picture of a recent glue-up I did. The red line represents the outline of the panel, the blue line points to the "problem area". If you look closely, you can see squeeze-out in this area. If I avoid glue in this area, the joint opens up slightly over time and on painted doors, you can see a "crack" in the finish.
183372

[David Cefai]

"The problem with epoxy is it's thick and difficult to spread"

I am not familiar with T-88 but have you tried West Systems? It is very thin and you can thicken it as required with sawdust or their own filler.

[joe milana]

"The problem with epoxy is it's thick and difficult to spread"

I am not familiar with T-88 but have you tried West Systems? It is very thin and you can thicken it as required with sawdust or their own filler.

I've used both. They are about the same.

[Mike Schuch]

When I got a great deal on my old Davis and Wells horizontal boring machine I needed to immediately give it a try on a live project. Since I was working on some doors I decided to drill the rails and styles before shaping them.

This worked great and really lined up everything very nicely which made assembly much faster... after cutting the dowels down a 1/4" because they were too long after shaping.

I always finish the panels before assembly then sand and finish the frame after gluing.