HKS 51 high speed steel in japanese planes? Anyone used it?

[David Weaver]

Has anyone used or bought a japanese plane with HKS51 steel in it?

Tsunesaburo makes a plane with an iron that they call either HKS51 or HSK51 alloy (I think fujibato has it labeled two different things, i'm not sure which acronym is right - neither returns much info on google).

The plane that he has it on is right down my alley - a 60 mm plane with a long dai option.

It's nice to have planes for dimensioning that don't need sharpened that often (and that can be sharpened on a fine grit belt grinder and leather wheel - both of which create a lot of heat), but it would cost me a little more than blue steel #1.

Anyone know anything about it? Does it sharpen up and hold an edge similar to M2?

[Sam Takeuchi]

I don't have it, but I had a chart from Hitachi with list of steels, compositions and Western equivalent terms to it, and I believe SKH51 is the same as M2. I'll poke around and see if I can find that again.

[David Weaver]

Thanks, Sam. I'd be pleased if it was.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Here is the chart (http://www.hitachi-metals-ts.co.jp/product/pdf/tool_sd.pdf).

Page 2, under Chemical compositions of YSS High Speed Tool Steels and the very first item on top.

[David Weaver]

Excellent. Thanks, Sam!

[David Weaver]

Well, I attempted to order one from fujibato's page, but it's mission impossible because google translate poops out in the middle of the order from completion.

I guess I'll wait until schtoo's got the tsunesaburo stuff listed, but I have a discount at accumlated at fujibato's (which for the way the site is arranged looks like an electronics dealer with "sale sale!" discount buttons all over the places) and patience is not a virtue that I have.

I have tried back-and-forth communication with both takeshi kuroda and fujibato, and both are pretty difficult to understand!

[Sam Takeuchi]

Is it this (http://www.330mate.com/) shop? I don't know if I can do anything, but if you need something translated or something, let me know. If you just copy and paste, I can get back to you.

[David Weaver]

Sam - that's the shop. I can't figure out how to apply a discount that I have, i otherwise figured out how to complete my order, but the discount is substantial enough that I want to apply it. I'll email fujibato later today and see what comes of it - he won't be awake for a while anyway.

(yes, I waffle around a lot about what I'm going to do!)

[Pam Niedermayer]

330mate hangs around on ebay, and I think it's a new incarnation of Tomonori.

Pam

[David Weaver]

Pam, i may not have been around long enough to know who tomonori is. Is that the same person as fujibato? (as in a hardware and stone seller in japan who also ships overseas?).

It's funny when you click on "english" on the top of fujibato's page (330mate.com), it changes a few words and leaves pretty much everything in japanese. Google translate is helpful, but you still have to have some faith ordering, that your paypal information will be forwarded and if you missed something in the order forms, eventually fujibato will get your order to you one way or another (that has been the case for me).

His prices are ok, nothing to write home about, and it isn't as well organized for the english speaker as is Tomohito IIda's page, nor is the selection as deep. There is a comment on fujibato's page that you can request a discount (i guess inviting bargaining if you see something you like but don't like the price). I have "best offered" some items from him on ebay and gotten a discount. Between that and my pennsylvania dutch background, i'm persistent in trying to get my accumulated discount from prior orders. It's sort of like a puzzle.

It may be smarter to wait to see schtoo's price list, I don't know what tsunesaburo will allow in pricing leeway, and he still has to make money, but i suspect that there is a fair amount of room given that fujibato's prices go down on items that show up on ebay, while at the same time he gets stuck paying a 9% final value fee.

I tend to be a little more sticky on prices of japanese tools because they do not resell well at all over here, and if I get something and decide it rubs me the wrong way, i don't appreciate the bath quite so much when I sell it. There seems to be a huge gap in what the dealers here and the ones who speak english in japan sell for and what used goods (that aren't even used) sell for. Trouble is, the used goods don't pop up too often on ebay. It's a strange combination of low frequency, but unimpressive results, too.

As an aside, the Nakano inikubi kanna that 330mate has on ebay right now is the identical kanna i found over here used. It is so neatly made with such a razor thin lamination and such good quality soft iron that i might be ruined for other planes, anyway.

Anyway, can you provide some history on tomonori?

[Stuart Tierney]

It's M2. The back hollow is modified so you don't need to (because you can't) tap the blade out. From new, the blade is sharp so of any plane ever made anywhere in the world, the Tsunesaburo HSS planes are as close as you can get to being 'ready to go, out of the box'. So much for all that intricate set up mumbo jumbo huh?

The HAP 40 is powder metal M4 HSS. Takes a better edge than the regular HSS and stays sharper, longer.

Pricing? Still juggling it now. What I can tell you is that every plane they make, with every possible option and permutation available will be available. Whatever pricing I come up with will be at least competitive for here in Japan. I'm not going to try the "I'm the cheapest!" game with these things, it's not worth it to me or them.

Yes, I do need to make some money, and I figure that being the only place on the planet where you can 'tick the box' and get whatever you want will be worthwhile. There's nowhere even here where you can order up whatever you want without pleading with and cajoling the merchant into getting it made up. I just wish I could introduce Tsunesaburo to product numbers of some kind. Would be A LOT easier... ;)


Well, this is embarrassing, but I think I'll leave it in place.

This is the steel chart from Tsunesaburo, just bounced out of the 'paste' button on my mouse. I was working on the translation of it last night, so a bump and this appeared. I'm not going to touch it, this is the raw translation. Mine is 'a little' more refined...

Stu.



鋼 の 特 徴
Feature Steel

白紙スーパー鋼
Super Steel Blank


A small vacuum melt steel and durability of the molecule.
By extending two thick tempered steel, increases stickiness and high toughness, a steel with high durability.

川鉄炭素鋼
Kawasaki Steel Carbon Steel


Kawasaki made of carbon steel in the 1950s.
Durable steel blue paper two similar items, though not easy to sharpen, special steel and easy to use conifers.


スウェーデン鋼
Swedish steel


Sandvik, as much as possible to reduce impurities in the steel, good sharpness, easy sharpening steel.
Durable material in the direction from the mid-Thurs soft blue paper is easy to use system is worse than steel, come up.
There are steel and flat steel forging.

青紙１号
No. 1 blue paper


Thermal properties of tungsten and chromium added to carbon steel, and steel cut permanent and improved wear resistance. The most popular and widely used in Japanese luxury planes, steel safe.
The fully spheroidized steel provides a stable cutting performance.


特別刃物鋼
Special cutting steel


Small molecules into the tungsten steel, more durable and increased the blue paper.
Cut at the shoulder lightly, it could work light flavor.
Axis flexible material suitable for medium-sized tree, good command of steel is also easy to use hardwood region.


燕鋼
Yan Steel


Direction from the base of hardwood mid-sized steel.
Strong stickiness, not spilling a small blade can cut the cedars.
Kuni Tsuyoshi especially hardwood, is characterized by cutting off other permanent unprecedented.
I only enough blade with Ken Naka Motegi, in principle, natural finish on the wheel.


青紙１号鍛造古鋼
No. 1 blue paper steel forging old


Thick steel one minute of the first standards in the custom in the twenties Saburou Hisashi No. In order to extend through forging impurities, increases stickiness gem that is easy to grind out permanently.
Ideal for cutting steel and thin old cedar wood in the direction from the mid-soft Thurs.


青紙スーパー鋼
Super Steel Blue Paper


Yasugi best steel, blue steel, carbon content, increasing the tungsten, molybdenum steel was added to improve the sharpness. Thurs, soft, sharp edge facing the universal characteristic of hardwood.
Positioned as a premium brand with a sense of stability.


犬首鋼
Shougang dog


Togo Steel Series has a composition similar to high-speed steel, and is also used to size lathe.
Wide six minutes, the thickness of the steel is hard to extend one minute five per cent, butt-welded steel forging difficult.
Excellent durability, and takes time with the blade, knife enthusiasts curiosities.


東郷レイ号大
No ray of Togo


Andrew's top quality products manufactured in the UK.
A rare steel was built in the early Showa era.
The steel work and Western fusion of steel balls, the cedar is quite useful in cutting steel for outstanding durability.
Kazi plane, wow superb professional craftsmen to cut.


ハイス鋼
High-speed steel


And tool steel used for drills.
Kuni Tsuyoshi impact, but less likely to spill blade cut the wood and laminated wood made up with Bond.
Durable, laminated wood from the timber and use a wider public.
Ease of use out no uranium, and easy sharpening the blade edge grinder usable.


特殊粉末鋼
Special steel powder


High Speed Steel with a sharpness and durability of steel.
Thurs flexible, versatile hardwood orientation, thin out to 6 microns, Young Out of 1080 feet (both Furniture Association) with the record.
Any threat of steel can be achieved depending on the cut preparation.

[David Weaver]

Would've guessed that at raw translation given "uranium" showing up. Saw that word "uranium" a bunch of times today on the tsunesaburo page.

I'm starting to get the idea of how good of a deal I got from takeshi kuroda when he sold planes (he didn't sell them long). Blue super yamamoto 70mm (i think they called it "special blue", but it was not blue #1 - that was cheaper) with a laminated second iron, kamaji (of course), angle of choice on the dai and the dai had the full Nimura seal on it, not the half seal. It was $190 shipped EMS to here - which is probably why he's selling knives and stones now, and not planes :)

And as you say, they really didn't need much attention to go - just one additional float session after they were here for a while. The only japanese planes I've ever had that needed more than 45 minutes of attention were the funjiis, but they're $60 and they don't come sharp and flat like any reputable plane does. The nakano plane had the dai so well fit that it was totally ready to go, and the previous owner still didn't find any favor in it (or any japanese planes for that matter) - it was screaming sharp, too.

What's the ETA on orders? one month, one week, two months? Any idea?

[David Weaver]

I have seen one other plane that required less new...you're gonna write me nasty emails over this...

....mujis.

Of course, when you go to sharpen them and you have to flatten the HSS irons to lap the wear off the back side of the bevel the first time, you appreciate some diamonds.

But they will shave hair out of the box and just by virtue of their design (wedge fit), they don't even need any floating if the season has shrank them a little.

[David Weaver]

Browsing more through the tsunesaburo site, I see that they have hap 40 in a standard ura and then the design you talk about. it's funny that style was mentioned way back in odate's book. I guess it fell out of favor, but came back in with this steel. I need just a little radius, though, and it's not something i'd favor grinding a gradual radius.

The SHK51 iron that fujibato has right now has the ura like a traditional plane, and it's in 60mm, a size that I don't see as a standard listing on tsunesaburo's page. The difference in price on tsunesaburo's page for the standard ura and the new style is 10000 yen (!) with the new style being less expensive. I guess they figured they don't so much like grinding that out or using a sen to do the traditional ura - it's probably a bear.

[Pam Niedermayer]

When I first got very interested in Japanese tools, Inomoto-san taught me how to make a dai (read through shavings) and Harrelson sold me some very expensive tools. Since my business had just been killed by 9/11 aftermath, I didn't have the dollars for this; but on ebay Tomonoro-san (or maybe Tomonori) was selling lots of Japanese tools, especially chisels, for relatively cheap dollars. I bought a lot of stuff from him (think his ebay name was something like murin___) and kept an eye out, a very reliable seller. I think we both helped get each other off the ground. About 4 or 5 years ago he started selling natural waterstones with little videos embedded. Those same videos and the same type of translations are embedded in 330mate items. I think it's the same guy.

As to your Nakano-san plane, looks real nice; but I've only bought one plane that expensive, a Tasai with the steel lamination in the shape of waves. Tsuenesaburo's Meigo-Ryomo blades are Super Blue Steel, too. Omichi-san, Tomohito-san's friend, made me a hikouki with a different dai than traditional and Meigo-Ryomo 48mm blade set. That plane is extraordinary. I love it.

And, btw, I'm not at all sure the tamehagane quoted in 330mate's item is actually tamehagane. I have a big hunk of this in the form of an axe (bought with other stuff from Tomonoro-san), it's distinct.

Pam

[David Weaver]

Pam, thank you for that explanation.

What do you think it is that's different between the very expensive planes, and the base ones? I go back and forth on this with myself, and I only have that one really premium plane, and some folks, I think, are rubbed the wrong way by nakano because he purposely keeps his planes affordable (if you can use such a word with $450-$600 planes). I didn't know much about japanese planes when I got it (i still don't, i guess, but I do know a lot more), but I figured that for $250 since it had the nice presentation box and all I had up to that point was a couple of funjiis, it was worth the risk. I go all over the place in what I like to use.

In ease of use, dimensioning a medium hardwood board with a metal jack with the mouth and chipbreaker set properly followed by a good tight mouthed (9 pound) panel plane and a very tightly mouthed infill smoother is the easiest way to get from point A to B, but I cannot get away from japanese planes - there is something about using them that is very intuitive even though setup and use is not so brainless in non-straight woods as it is with my infills (which is pleasing when you get to something that beats you with the other planes).

Anyway, back to the point, I think the nimura dai outfitted yamamoto super blue smoothers that I've gotten (not from japan woodworker, they come with an unmarked dai and you get less for your money) from jp metalmaster (takeshi kuroda) have been the best value for the dollar of anything that I have seen - especially for $175. I still have one. I stupidly sold the other on the S&S here. The JWW one is still a good value, i guess, especially with the "special blue" steel, but it is not as nice of a package of stuff as mr. kuroda had put together, which even with exchange adjustment would still be less than JWWs.

What I go back and forth with myself is whether there is really a $300+ difference between that and the nakano plane, and I recognize that if the nakano plane were made by funahiro or tsunesaburo or one of the other more collectible blacksmiths, it would be a lot more money, and no better - maybe not even as neat and carefully made (of course, I could be wrong about that, but it would have to be proven to me - i think it's unlikely anyone would make it better). What it has that the yamamoto planes do not have is every subtlety that you would want in a smoothing plane. It is extremely tidily made, it has a nice kiri box to keep it in, and sharpening it on a natural stone is an otherworldy experience - for the edge it holds it sharpens as easily as white #2 because of the quality of the iron and the carefulness of the blacksmith in stretching the iron the way he did. Even at its new price, it isn't the most expensive plane I've ever bought, that honor goes to a shepherd cocobolo panel plane kit (which i still had to build), but it is one that I think that if it was ever stolen, I would purchase a new one at retail without hesitation, unless I literally didn't have enough money in my account to buy one.

At the same time, if takeshi kuroda ever started selling a similar combination to what he did previously (the yamamotos), I would recommend him as the first point for a good new plane. It was very easy to specify the steel, the width of the iron, and the angle of the dai, which in turn was made and stamped by a well known dai maker and the price felt like more of a starvation price. No charge for any of the options dai or size options within reason, and super blue (or whatever the special wear resistant steel is that yamamoto uses) was a $10 upcharge from Blue #1 (can you believe that?).

I'm still going around in circles coming up with a jointer here. I haven't heard back from fujibato, and I'd love to have HSS, but after using a 65mm super blue 11/10 pitch yamamoto last night for quite a while, I don't think I want a narrower plane than 65mm for a jointer, and while HSS might hold an edge longer than super blue (probably twice as long), I don't know that I care - super blue holds an edge for a very long time.

The other thing that's pleasing about at least using japanese planes some (from the standpoint of someone who is not using power tools at this point) is that you can pull through a very thick low radius shaving without a lot of wear and tear on your body. In facing a board, it leaves a nice flat surface right after a jack plane, and it isn't as fatiguing or hard on the elbows as western planes in a very heavy cut - you can stop and start in a way that you can't pushing a plane. It also does not break out the edges of a board like a large scalloped shaving can do if you have a moment of brainlessness and don't knock off the far side of the board before vigorous work.

I can not get a similarly large flat shaving through anything other than the panel plane, and even with the paraffin handy, that one still makes you sweat.

I'm only entertaining myself at this point, because I realize that not many people skip using power saws, and tailed planers and jointers, and fewer yet use a combination of japanese and western planes. Sometimes I mooch machine time in a friends shop, but I think my days of using my marginal power tools are pretty much over unless I have a time demand and can build sloppy stuff with dadoes and cabinet ply (which is something I do only when the wife threatens to buy a horribly overpriced piece of plywood furniture from the "custom" furniture store down the road).

But, I would like to hear what it is that you really like about your one high $$ plane. Some things about planes are like listening to music - when you know what it is you're supposed to be looking for, it makes the experience more enjoyable.

[Stuart Tierney]

I'm asking for 2 weeks on 'catalog' stuff, 4 weeks on anything that's way out there and has to get built up from chunks and logs.

$190 EMS to there with super blue is a fantastically good deal.

The HSS stuff is already sharpened, the rest will need a touch up. The irons are fitted and ready to go, out of the box on all the Tsunesaburo planes. The soles are adjusted for here, and the default dai will be oimasame/rift cut, with masame (1/4 sawn) as an option for those folks who don't get dry in the summer or winter. To start, it's just going to be the catalog, nothing more. Anything in there, I'll list and have readily available. There won't be a lack of information either, which is what I've been asked to do as well, get the information out there so kanna are not so danged scary.

After a time, I'll be looking for my own little gadget to have made up, among all the other stuff that's on the cards. But I've gotta get them up and running, soon.


As to the original question, have I bought and used a SKH51 plane from Tsunesaburo? Well, not 2 feet from my head sits a 50mm one, however I've not actually used it (more than a single sweet pass off some hemlock) so on that count, no. I didn't pay for it either, so again on that count, no.

Sorry, can't help you. Dang things just get thrown at me... ;)

(No, you can't have it. That one is not for sale.)

[David Weaver]

I can't imagine too many people making productive requests for stuff that's not in the tsunesaburo catalog. I think the $190 is such a good deal that mr. kuroda decided it was no longer worth his time to sell planes for what margin he might have made.

I didn't see dai length as an option in the standard catalog for tsunesaburo - did I miss it? not that you can't get 8/4 hard maple over here dead QS for $9 a board foot and make your own. We just don't have japanese white oak, and a single blank is $40 (!!!).

50mm is a bit more narrow than i'm looking for, i see that the translation on the tsunesaburo site is that the skh51 planes are "trouble planes" - some of them at least. I can't attest for that specific plane, but I can say for certain that when there is "trouble", especially if it's abrasive woods, HSS leaves anything tool steel too far back to even see taillights. I'm sure it will be a good user. Start counting strokes - tell us when it's dull :p

Speaking from experience, for anyone who wants to wade into japanese planes, the information should not be scary at all - as long as someone realizes that their higher-end tools are a combination of art and rarity, and that the moderately priced (as in similar to LN prices) are very very good user tools. The biggest frustration is finding someone who speaks english so that you don't have to spend hours wading through google translate trying to figure out what things like "uranium" are supposed to be. The folks who do speak english (up to this point) are either on these shores, and the deals are not so good, or purposely named something you can't find elsewhere so you can't do informed shopping, or they are in japan or somewhere out there in that part of the world and tending toward collector goods. Those $1500 planes scare people, I think, and there is a perception that there must be some compromise in a $200-$300 kanna - and there is not.

[David Weaver]

Pam, i forgot on the tamahagane thing - i have no idea who fujibato is selling that to, but if I were a buyer of such a thing, I would want to contact the person who made it to confirm that it was traditionally made and that it is good purity. In reality, i'd never have any interest in anything made with it unless i knew someone who wanted to buy it for twice what I was about to pay for it.

I remember reading something that So wrote a while ago - that tamahagane has generally not been in planes for a long time for a reason - because from a use standpoint in a plane, it is not as good as any modern steel. I think I remember reading that one of the chiyozurus (1930s?) commanded that in his shop, no planes would be made of anything other than imported (english, swedish?) steel (no more tamahagane). That's one instance where I think if you read a little, you get the notion that tamahagane is some sort of mysterious legendary performer that cannot be equalled by anything modern, and it is, from a user stand point, a collectors item and the myth of performance is from a different era, and is wrong if it is claimed to be superior to modern steel. The notion that there is any steel now that is too tough to be sharpened to an edge that leaves a great polish is also outdated information. There is nothing remotely close to being difficult to sharpen on diamonds.

I see the sword people still like to use tamahagane, but they are not going for the same level of hardness or edge/wear durability. If I am not mistaken, they are going for the authentic folded look.

[David Weaver]

Continuing to entertain myself. After an email exchange, Takeshi Kuroda is still selling planes (i think he is in miki, and he must be a hardware dealer), he just doesn't have them listed. I am about to find out how much the price has changed, and that may solve my issue.

Dealing directly offline or outside of a storefront might be something some folks are uncomfortable with, though, but options are always good.

He did say "400 mm dai is possible, but it is custom designed and takes time" - no surprise. I did order a custom dai plane from him before, and it took about an extra two weeks to get the dai from Nimura, which I would say is not bad. Could be a good time to find out how well QS hard maple works as a dai material so that the plane can still ship EMS with the standard dai.

I can't imagine trying to go through a retailer over here to get options like that (if they would even do it). I've never tried, but I doubt they'd appreciate doing custom stuff at the same cost as stock as takeshi did last time I ordered a plane, especially given that their standard price is at least 20% higher.

HSS would be nice, but with the only planes with a standard ura that are stock and large enough for what I want, HAP 40 would be the only option, and i see on tsunesaburo that would essentially list for $500 at the current exchange rates. I can live with "special blue cutting steel", esp for a plane that will be a jointer. I would say it lasts about like A2 for wear resistance and chips/releases big carbides less.

[Pam Niedermayer]

David, you're not talking to yourself. I'm listening; but I haven't responded because of the length of original message and my response. It requires more time than I have right now.

Pam

[george wilson]

David,you are such an encyclopedia on Japanese planes!!!! I didn't realize you were so into them.

Is it true that Kuroda rusts every thing he touches???:)

[David Weaver]

George, I guess some people are so into furniture that they can get three planes out that cost four dollars apiece and pat themselves on the back about how great they are for doing so much furniture work with so little in tools.

I'd rather get out all kinds of tools and use them. All kinds, and nice ones too. I don't want to be cheated in the experience or get so into worshipping one single form of something like some folks get and refuse to try anything else. Japanese planes are really nice to have in the mix for medium hardwoods, not so much for the smoothing work, but for the trying work. It is much easier on elbows to lean back with the plane and pull than it is to push a coarse flat shaving out of a board.

Of course, I'd rather make tools, but the wife doesn't request tools. She has three pieces of furniture on her wishlist right now, and they've been there since before I built the three infill planes, two saw kits and a couple of moulding planes. She wasn't happy about my choice of priorities! I need to make a few more moulding planes for her furniture projects, though. She's threatening to buy more plywood furniture!

[David Weaver]

I got the joke, by the way, but I have no idea how to respond to a monday-class joke on a thursday.

[george wilson]

You need to re train your wife!!

[David Wong]

Hello David, I guess I am the guy you sold your Yamamoto too. I am sorry to report that I really have not had anytime to use it. I am trying to setup a work area in my garage and things have been a mess for a long time. I think I identified the blade in the plane you sold me as "Katsusaburo" (勝三郎), and the blacksmith is Tesshinsai Horaku (aka Yamamoto-san). Katsusaburo appears to be one of his basic models. You can see the Katsusaburo and a couple of other higher-end models on the Iida Tool site (http://japantool-iida.com/plane_smoothing/2008/10/katsusaburo-by-tesshinsai-hohr.html).

On the subject of tamehagane, you should check out the PBS Nova program Secrets of the Samurai Sword (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/samurai/). There is a portion of the program devoted to the 3 day smelting process for the steel. A wood fired earthen furnace is created to produce a single batch of steel. The narration states that only the highest quality tamehagane is selected for sword making. The rest is used for other purposes (kitchen knives, according to the narration).

[Stanley Covington]

HKS51 steel is used in planes intended for very hard wood, such as ebony, or woods that contain abrasive particles. Some people here in Japan use them for trimming plastic laminate. A blue bitch to sharpen. I made one when I was a student for some work I did in ebony, but have seldom used it since. Silly to buy one unless you specifically need that abrasion resistance and can live without the sharpness of more conventional steel.

I am always amazed at the prices of some Japanese planes and chisels and the people that buy them. Some blacksmiths were/are better at marketing their products than others. Chiyozuru Korehide was not only a brilliant smith, he was a great promoter. He knew how to forge steel with the best of them, and decorated them subtly and with real style. His products were works of art, and were justifiably priced like works of art. They cut like the very devil, but did they perform ten times (that's what he charged for the blade "Saga no Aki" for example) better than a premium plane of the time by a less artistic smith? Hell no.

Professional Japanese craftsmen that use planes and chisels to make a living do not buy the three grind suminagashi chisels with the ebony handles or the $3,200 plane with the stylized kanji cuts in the paulownia wood box with a "certificate of authenticity." That stuff is for amateurs or art collectors, not for using. The craftsmen that I know deride tools that come in "kiribako" boxes, along with the dudes that buy them. None would dare to take a tool like that to a jobsite or have it on his workbench. The damage to one's reputation could be irreparable.

The arm and eye of the smith makes the difference, and since the most critical part of his efforts are molecular, it’s hard to tell the difference.

Tamahagane is seldom used for tools. The last smith I knew that used it successfully, Mr. Iwasaki, died a few years ago when I was back in the States, but he said it was very difficult to work and shape when hot. If you look (and can read Japanese) you can find his article on the web. He made a western style razor for me from tamahagane that I have been using almost daily for 22 years. It only needs sharpening once a year. He was more metallurgist that blacksmith, I think. In any case, I would be very careful of someone that says they are using a pricey and temperamental raw material like tamahagane to make plane blades or chisels. There is a lot of fraud in high-end Japanese tools, just as there is, and always has been, in the Japanese sword world.

If you can find a smith that uses shirogami steel successfully, you have found a treasure. When I was a grad student here in Tokyo back in the 80's I tried lots of blades by lots of smiths. The best I found were made by an obscure blacksmith from Niigata Prefecture named Yokozaka Masato （横坂正人）. He marks his planes simply "Masato no Saku" (正人の作) meaning "made by Masato." Customer demand has made him go a bit Hollywood in his decoration of late. In fact, his prices have gone nuts, and his planes are now very difficult to find the demand is so high, but that occurred not because of the decoration he uses or some silly calligraphized kiribako, but due to the reputation his blades initially developed among top craftsmen when he was unknown, the subsequent success of his blades at the "kezuroukai," and his decreased production as he gets older Straight shirogami for the cutting edge. Difficult to use, but it takes a wonderful edge and is easily sharpened. There are others out there that make better products at more reasonable prices than the pimped-out blades. They deserve your patronage.

Have you ever heard of Masato? Probably not. But the boys that know the difference between a hawk and a handsaw do.

Beware of car salesmen selling tools.

Stan

[David Weaver]

Hello David, I guess I am the guy you sold your Yamamoto too. I am sorry to report that I really have not had anytime to use it. I am trying to setup a work area in my garage and things have been a mess for a long time. I think I identified the blade in the plane you sold me as "Katsusaburo" (勝三郎), and the blacksmith is Tesshinsai Horaku (aka Yamamoto-san). Katsusaburo appears to be one of his basic models. You can see the Katsusaburo and a couple of other higher-end models on the Iida Tool site (http://japantool-iida.com/plane_smoothing/2008/10/katsusaburo-by-tesshinsai-hohr.html).

On the subject of tamehagane, you should check out the PBS Nova program Secrets of the Samurai Sword (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/samurai/). There is a portion of the program devoted to the 3 day smelting process for the steel. A wood fired earthen furnace is created to produce a single batch of steel. The narration states that only the highest quality tamehagane is selected for sword making. The rest is used for other purposes (kitchen knives, according to the narration).

David - hopefully you will enjoy the plane when you do get to use it. If you do not, I will give you your money back.

That is, in fact the model of plane that takeshi kuroda was selling in ebay (except that the one that you have is special blue cutlery steel instead of blue #1 - should be an improvement in edge holding over blue #1). That one and this one:

http://www9.ocn.ne.jp/~y.kanna/seihinnosyoukai.files/image030.jpg

...both were the same price (i got one of each), and in use they feel the same. At the time, before the exchange rate went bad, takeshi was selling them for about $190 shipped (might've been $5 more than that depending on what the shipping charge was). The fact that Hohraku will put a special blue steel and pre-bessemer wrought iron on a plane that doesn't cost more than that is somewhat unique. I think the dai on that one is stamped on the front, too, and if it is, it is a Nimura dai - something So says in one of his listings is a $40 upcharge from a dai with a half stamp or no stamp.

I wonder why iida's planes have blue #1 when Horhraku's page says they will come with special blue, maybe they specified them that way. I wonder also why iida doesn't carry the larger 65-80mm size planes in that model.

Anyway, compared to the one that JWW sells for $230 with no markings on the dai, it is a nice deal (at least I think it is) in a fully functional user plane, and the only thing that hida sells in that price range is a plane with white steel #2, which (i have two planes with white #2) I would consider not suitable for use in hardwoods - the edge wears quickly compared to a better steel - it is not durable, it abrades. Actually, I would never consider spending $200 for a plane with white #2 for any reason, though at least it does have wrought iron, so anyone buying it won't be spending their days trying to wear off hard iron to sharpen the steel.

So mentioned what you say about tamahagane, that it is very good for swords, which need to have the folded look, and which hold up well at Rc55 or so hardness, where it does not do so well against modern planes that may be 65-66 hardness even after tempering. As well as tamahagane may work in razors, knives and swords (because it is a very plain steel and can be left untempered), I would imagine even the best planes made with tamahagane would be exposed in a test where a plane was checked to see the number of strokes it could make on a medium hardwood before it stopped cutting acceptably. I understand where the legend of it came from in a country where most of the steel prior to imports was not very good. Modern metallurgy is a wonderful thing for planes, though.

I have seen tamahagane production on youtube, but nothing the quality of nova. Thanks for pointing it out, I will go have a look at it.

[David Weaver]

Stanley - if SKH51 is the same as M2, it's no problem to set the edge geometry by a hollow grind, then a quick hone with a 1000 grit diamond hone and finished off on a powered leather belt or wheel. It's actually very quick to hone like that and becomes very very sharp if the honing compound is something aggressive (like chromium oxide) and fine. a shapton does OK polishing the back of the iron, too, but I wouldn't want to do the entire bevel. I see tsunesaburo does not put wrought iron on with the skh51, I guess they assume that you're going to grind it so they don't care. Though there are new stones that cut it just fine, I would not want to hone it by hand when powered sharpening does it so easily and gives a better and sharper result.

it is, however, murder on soft old-style aluminum oxide stones, as you say - to the point of being undesirable to use if you have to do anything more than just polish the edge.

Can you share the names of some blacksmiths that we should be looking to for planes? What do the guys in tokyo think of nakano and yamamoto? Those two guys seem to be to offer very nice planes for not much money compared to the blacksmiths that get the press. The tasais, funahiro (which I saw peter cowick mention that the hype has passed the actual blacksmithing) and chiyozurus are not planes I would buy because there is too much money spent in making the parts of the tool that don't cut look nice. I kind of prefer to spend my money on the cutting end of the iron and not on the decoration.

I have heard of Masato, i think, but only from reading translated pages. Not ever from retailer magazines over here.

If you are not aware of one of the dealers in antique tools over here (who by his "about me" page was a car sales manager or some other such thing like that - definite car sales related), you have no idea just how funny your statement is about car salesman. it's true!

[David Weaver]

Also, as you point out, with as many planes as are stamped "tamahagane" somewhere on the iron, I would always bet my money that the claim was false. I saw a post somewhere that showed even a very coarsely made iron with a heavy machine stamp that said "tamahagane" on it.

[Pam Niedermayer]

...So mentioned what you say about tamahagane, that it is very good for swords, which need to have the folded look, and which hold up well at Rc55 or so hardness, where it does not do so well against modern planes that may be 65-66 hardness even after tempering. As well as tamahagane may work in razors, knives and swords (because it is a very plain steel and can be left untempered), I would imagine even the best planes made with tamahagane would be exposed in a test where a plane was checked to see the number of strokes it could make on a medium hardwood before it stopped cutting acceptably. I understand where the legend of it came from in a country where most of the steel prior to imports was not very good. Modern metallurgy is a wonderful thing for planes, though. ...

And then there are saws. Yataiki made some of his saws using tamehagane, charges $10-$20,000 each.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

Also, as you point out, with as many planes as are stamped "tamahagane" somewhere on the iron, I would always bet my money that the claim was false. I saw a post somewhere that showed even a very coarsely made iron with a heavy machine stamp that said "tamahagane" on it.

I've heard that in this case it means more like "best quality" than specifically a type of steel.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

...On the subject of tamehagane, you should check out the PBS Nova program Secrets of the Samurai Sword (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/samurai/). There is a portion of the program devoted to the 3 day smelting process for the steel. A wood fired earthen furnace is created to produce a single batch of steel. The narration states that only the highest quality tamehagane is selected for sword making. The rest is used for other purposes (kitchen knives, according to the narration).

Great show, David, I try to watch it once or twice a year.

Pam

[Stanley Covington]

Stanley - if SKH51 is the same as M2, it's no problem to set the edge geometry by a hollow grind, then a quick hone with a 1000 grit diamond hone and finished off on a powered leather belt or wheel.

Diamond plates work great. I have heard several guys over here saying that with diamond plates, the time difference between sharpening white and blue steel is no longer an issue. That is even more true when sharpening HSS. But I bet you won't be able to get HSS to the sharpness of plain, hard carbon steel, even if it will hold a usable edge many times longer.


[/QUOTE]Can you share the names of some blacksmiths that we should be looking to for planes? What do the guys in tokyo think of nakano and yamamoto? [/QUOTE]

I will have a talk with a very knowledgeable tool retailer here in Tokyo after work tonight and ask him what he thinks about Nakano and Yamamoto. Can you tell where these blacksmiths are located? Probably Miki.

Allow me to explain my situation a bit. When I was a grad student here, and later when I was working for a large Japanese contractor here (different from the one I currently work for), I pursued the best tools voraciously. My Japanese was and is good enough that I can communicate in both written and spoken Japanese at graduate school levels, and combined with my credentials, this opened doors in the blacksmithing, woodworking, and sword polishing worlds that would otherwise have been closed. My passion at the time was joinery. I learned how to use Japanese woodworking tools from professionals, who thought me to be an interesting curiosity. Of course, since I learned from them, I adopted many of their ideas and prejudices about tools, but since I was not a deshi (apprentice) I was not locked into their preferences through loyalty. So I bought a lot of different planes and chisels that were recommended to me and tried them for myself and made up my own mind. In most cases, I found the old boys to be right.

As you know, the two big tool centers for Japanese woodworking tools have historically been Tokyo and Miki. Different styles, different preferences. Tokyo production is almost zero now, and production has shifted to Niigata Prefecture (especially Sanjo City). Miki continues. In my opinion, Tokyo/Sanjo products are less decorative than Miki, with more emphasis on performance. I think they cut better and hold an edge longer. But this is a Chevy vs Ford type argument. There is also a customer satisfaction/warranty issue I won't go into other than to say that Miki tools tend to be softer as a result. In any case, while I lived in Tokyo, I purchased, and in some cases had custom made, chisels, planes and saws from the smiths that I felt made the best performing tools. In the case of planes, it was mostly Usui and Yokozaka, both Niigata smiths, and neither of them well known at the time. Their only interest was making the very best tools they could, and the products were expensive, but still priced for practical use. Usui san has since passed away, and Yokozaka's production is down. Not encouraging. In the case of chisels, after trying many brands, the choices turned out to be fewer, and I went exclusively with Kiyotada (Shimamura), another relatively unknown smith. He has passed away, leaving a very capable son who has sadly left the trade for health reasons and now works for the equivalent of UPS.

I returned to work in the US in 1996, and while I returned to Japan on business and to visit family once or twice a year, of necessity I could not remain as knowledgeable about the ever-changing tool world, nor did I need to since I already had plenty of tools (too many my wife insists).

I was transferred back to Tokyo in late 2009. Unfortunately, I was unable to bring all my possessions to Japan, and made a careful selection of tools to bring with me, including of course, my best Japanese planes and chisels and saws. But Murphy will not be denied, and the moving company put the boxes with my planes and chisels deep in a storage unit in Las Vegas. It would take three days of digging to get them out, I am certain, even if I could take the time off from work and wanted to pay the airfare. So I decided it would be more efficient to re-purchase a basic set of tools in Japan to help keep my fragile sanity intact. This turned out to be a great shock, because the blackmsiths I once bought from are either dead, retired, or their products have become so expensive and the waiting lists so long it was impractical. I did manage to purchase one Yokozaka plane, an arashiko, the last one in stock, with no hope of ordering more. The price was very high. Of course, it has a wonderful blade. I still needed a finishing plane, and purchased one that was recommended to me and made from shirogami. It is performing quite well, but requires sharpening a little more frequently than I would like. I don't recall the name of the smith, but I will check.

In any case, the reason for this long explanation is to point out that I am not a tool retailer, and never knew the products of all the smiths, and the products from ones I knew well are almost impossible to buy now. So I will check with more knowledgeable professionals and get back with you. But be warned that it is very unlikely that you will ever find the very best Japanese tools for sale in the US even from Japanese mail order or internet dudes. That is because the best Japanese smiths have never been able to keep up with domestic demand, and are not interested in selling outside the country. Therefore, those products that are sold to overseas markets are usually (there may be exceptions) not selling all that well in Japan. Does that mean they are necessarily poor quality tools? Hell no. But retailers selling Japanese tools overseas know they are selling to a less-discerning customer with fewer choices, one more likely to be impressed by, and pay more for, outward appearance. This is where car salesman-types find opportunity.

[David Weaver]

There are a few of us who want plain tools that are made to the specs they say they are.

As far as softer, I have tools from several blacksmiths. I would guess that people complained they were too hard to sharpen as I would guess only a couple of them are as hard as they say they are. I have tested one, a mortise chisel, I won't say the brand but it is one available over here on a regular basis. Strikes from a rockwell hardness tester, IIRC, were 60-62 and the average was 61. As you know, the difference between 64/65 and 61 in edge holding is enormous.

I would bet the koyama-ichi dovetails that LV has (at least my set) are very close to the 65/66 they claim. I am pleased with their hardness. Pretty much less so with every other japanese chisel I have, they probably all tend toward about 62. It's not that you can't use a tool like that, it's just a matter of expectations and what you're paying for. Oh...i forgot, miyanaga chisels, they feel and wear like they are as hard as they say they are. I only have those in mortise chisels and I haven't got any access to a hardness tester, but I'd be curious to see if they fare better.

i've seen a lot of different tips about tempering a new japanese tool to keep it from being brittle, but because i believe so many people want a chisel easier to sharpen, it's rare to run into a tool that would benefit, and maybe to some extent, blue steel has negated some of the brittleness.

Your comment about blue and white feeling the same on new stones is correct. I don't notice a difference on ceramic stones, and definitely not on a diamond. To get to the same level of subjective sharpness as you're describing with an M2 iron, I use a powered leather wheel or a powered leather belt with 1/2 micron compound on it. You would be shocked how sharp it gets. I can't tell the difference between its level of sharpness and my white steel stuff off of a good natural stone. However, I haven't had great success with anything other than carbon steels at lower angles.

Thanks for taking the time to describe the situation.

Takeo Nakano may go by different names than I use. He is in Niigata. I've also seen him called Nakenoko Takeo. I don't know anything about him other than that I have one of his planes and I didn't have to pay much for it. I'd love to have more, but the only direction would be for some exotic steel, and that doesn't do me any good beyond what I have already (inukubi). I might find something that lasts a lot longer (like togo reigo, for a lot lot more money), but the inukubi sharpens very easily and also gets very very sharp.

Yamamoto calls himself (i think he calls himself) Tesshinsai Houraku. He is in miki. I like that he offers a plain full featured plane for not a whole lot of money.

I like the nakano plane better than the yamamoto plane, but it cost more used than the yamamoto did new, it is a better plane but it is a different grade. It was also purchased in japan as a gift for someone in the states, brought over, and they decided they didn't like japanese planes and unloaded it for $250. when I got it, it was the second plane I bought. i thought maybe there'd be lots of those (nice planes for not much $$ that other peole got rid after trying them) since the first one fell into my lap, but that hasn't been the case. Maybe i'm missing something that yamamoto does with his more expensive planes, because his more expensive planes are similar in cost to nakanos. Maybe they are much nicer than my basic grade planes.

I still like all of them, even the basic yamamotos. They are very good planes to use, the irons are tough and you have to dull them by wearing them since they don't chip out.

[David Weaver]

Well, after the initial excitement of getting another yamamoto plane from overseas, still haven't heard from the seller after he initially said "i stock this, but a long dai is custom and would take some time". Three follow-up emails about cost and how to buy, and no response.

Couple that with fujibato who never responded to the first email.

Must've been lucky the first time when I got two planes without issue!

One other side comment that I remember from reading alex gilmores page when he was selling more planes on his page and fewer on ebay (he sells a lot of NOS old planes) that most of the older planes he turns up have been in the 61 or so hardness range. I wonder just how many of these planes that are new really meet their hardness spec.

[Stanley Covington]

Following up on my promise yesterday, I spoke with my tool retailer in Tokyo regarding high quality reasonably-priced planes.


Masato Yokosaka has entirely retired since I last asked about him. That explains the high prices for his products. His is the standard by which I judge other plane blade blacksmith. Another high-quality but reasonably priced smith I have experience with is Mr. Usui. Excellent product. Passed away, I believe.


I was shocked when I went tool shopping last year to find that the blacksmiths I knew and trusted were either retired, now too famous to afford on the limited budget I allowed myself for this set of temporary tools, or passed away. So I relied on the advice of trusted experts. I was able to purchase their very last Yokosaka arashiko plane in stock, one they had placed back on the wrong shelf and only discovered when I asked them to search again carefully. As expected, it cuts very well and holds an edge a long time. It is plain shirogami 1, high carbon steel. No fancy decorations, or carved name, and no silly damn box.


I also purchased a 70mm smoothing plane from another Niigata blacksmith named Sekikawa. There is a picture of him at the webpage link below. I have never met him.
http://www.e-daikudogu-net.biz/SHOP/182746/list.html


According to my retailer, he is second generation and has spent his entire career working in Niigata. He is said to have a tremendous stock of wonderful jigane (the soft, very-low carbon steel that comprises the bulk of a Japanese plane blade) obtained from recycled boilers. Very soft, and full of beautiful inclusions. You couldn’t ask for better jigane nowadays. He works in aogami and shirogami, depending on customer request, and will sometimes accept custom orders. I have not used the plane a lot, but it cuts very well and holds an edge with the best of them. Retail prices for the 70, 65 and 60mm smoothing planes with chipbreaker and a very high quality white oak body are JPY26,900 + tax (5%). He has them in stock.


I asked if he could recommend some high-quality reasonably priced manufacturers. Besides Sekikawa, he mentioned two others he could recommend with confidence. Please understand that recommendations such as this are not given lightly in Japan, and would not have been given at all except for the long relationship I have with this retailer. He does not stock their products normally, but can order them.

He also recommended Uchihashi (Miki), who he said makes a very good product using scientific measures.

Tsunesaburo (also in or near Miki) is another high-quality blacksmith, but is rather unique in that he has the ability to manufacture plane blades in quantity, also using scientific methods. A family-run business I was told. I was also told he works in all the available materials including powdered high speed steel. I was told that his products are boring in appearance, and priced accordingly, but still high-quality. I have seen his name mentioned in this very thread.

I wasn’t able to get an opinion about Nakano.

Yamamoto is well known, but I have no experience with his products, and neither has my retailer.

A word about steel. As you know, Hitachi shirogami tool steel lacks vanadium, chrome, tungsten etc., all the additives that make steel stable and easy to heat treat. These additives make the steel more difficult to sharpen, and perhaps prevent the blade from getting as sharp as shirogami steel would. Is the difference in sharpness big? No. Is the difference in sharpening big? Yes, at least for those that insist on extremely sharp blades and so sharpen their tools a lot.

Shirogami has two big problems, however, which you may not be aware of. First, it can only be heat treated in a very narrow range of temperatures. Keep it too hot for too long and it is garbage. Quench it when it is too hot, or too cold, and it goes into the recycling bin. The range of allowable temperature is very narrow. Quality control, therefore is a bitch. It is a cantankerous material.

Problem number two is the fact that plain carbon steel in thin sections warps easily during heat treatment. A blacksmith must first work the steel in a way to minimize that warpage (and cracking), then allow for warping when forming the tool in preparation for heat treatment. This takes experience that comes only from painstaking and expensive trial and error. Shirogami is not a material suited to mass production. A blacksmith must be very very good to make a living using shirogami. As an aside, you may not know that Japanese swords are straight, not curved, prior to heat treating. The curvature we see in the finished product is controlled warpage.

Aogami has additives to make it behave suitably for mass production. The range of time and temps for heat treatment are much wider and more forgiving. Warpage is greatly reduced. The thinner the cross section, the more critical this stability becomes. This makes it much easier to get good QC with fewer rejects and higher productivity. Aogami is a wonderful material and makes a good plane blade, but the additives that make it easy and profitable to use also limit performance. In other words, all aogami blades are relatively easy to make, and about the same quality, and all should be relatively inexpensive, if judged just on performance rather that appearance. That said, most people can’t tell the difference between shirogami and aogami steel blades.

This is why those that know the difference between the two types of steel admire the efforts and skills of blacksmiths that use shirogami, and disdain aogami blades with fancy kanji carved into their faces and sold at ridiculous prices in paulownia wood boxes covered with calligraphy.

A word about dai. I know you understand this, but for those that are less experienced that might be reading this, it is worth mentioning that a high quality dai (plane block) is worth the extra money if you count your time worth anything. If you are forced to spend your time fixing a warped plane dai instead of working, and making the mouth wider and wider in the process, your productivity will suck big donkey donuts. ;) Caveat emptor.

Stan

[David Weaver]

Thank you, stan. The trouble with the good blacksmiths is that once they become known, their product prices go way up.

Exactly what you describe about white vs. blue steel is why I don't think anyone should buy inexpensive or moderately priced white steel planes (unless they are $50 and practice on fitting the iron), and certainly not a $200 white steel #2 "intermediate" plane. I would trust nakano and the guys you have mentioned to make a white steel plane that would be properly hardened and tempered and rival a blue steel plane for durability. The "cheapest" white steel iron and sub iron that I have seen that is from nakano is about $350 without a dai. I think that's a very reasonable price because he doesn't work in volume. I would've loved to hear an opinion on him, but I understand that the low volume of planes makes it harder for people to know who he is. When you look at the iron on his plane, it is nonspectacular looking for the cost, it's nice and clean, but no flowery mokume or anything like that. When you sharpen it and use it, then you find out why it costs what it costs. Other than one place exporting a few irons, the nakano planes are not available here, which I think is usually a plus. I have gotten export only good before, and they were inferior. Not unusable, but not as good.

Glad to hear tsunesaburo is recommended, because their full line of planes are about to become available here.

I have seen yokosaka and usui planes. Both are expensive by the time they get here (I think all usui planes may be expensive regardless). Maybe I can find one cheap some time.

[Pam Niedermayer]

... I was able to purchase their very last Yokosaka arashiko plane in stock, one they had placed back on the wrong shelf and only discovered when I asked them to search again carefully. As expected, it cuts very well and holds an edge a long time. It is plain shirogami 1, high carbon steel. No fancy decorations, or carved name, and no silly damn box. ...

I also purchased a 70mm smoothing plane from another Niigata blacksmith named Sekikawa. There is a picture of him at the webpage link below. I have never met him.
http://www.e-daikudogu-net.biz/SHOP/182746/list.html

According to my retailer, he is second generation and has spent his entire career working in Niigata. He is said to have a tremendous stock of wonderful jigane (the soft, very-low carbon steel that comprises the bulk of a Japanese plane blade) obtained from recycled boilers. Very soft, and full of beautiful inclusions. You couldn’t ask for better jigane nowadays. He works in aogami and shirogami, depending on customer request, and will sometimes accept custom orders. I have not used the plane a lot, but it cuts very well and holds an edge with the best of them. Retail prices for the 70, 65 and 60mm smoothing planes with chipbreaker and a very high quality white oak body are JPY26,900 + tax (5%). He has them in stock. ...

I know that paying for kiri boxes is an unnecessary expense, especially with calligraphy;
but wooden boxes do protect the metal from rust as well as mechanical jarring.

Is Sekikawa the subject of your retailer in the last paragraph above? How much would blades, sans dai and subblade, cost?

Thanks,
Pam

[David Weaver]

I don't mind when I get a kiri box either, I just don't want to pay $100 for it. The only plane I have one for is the nakano plane, and I figure they throw it in because they can't find enough people to buy the boxes at full price. I see the fujibato will throw boxes in from time to time at no cost, and I figure that's the same reason, that the artisans are making them and he is just running into extra stock. I think he charges $25-40 for a box if you buy it separately, and even at that, I think i'm too cheap to pay. He threw one in with a set of chisels that I got, as well as a stone, no charge.

I checked the seikikawa page, but I couldn't find full size blades - even with google translate. I think they talk size in a way that google translate understands or I don't understand. What is a "size 8" plane, is that a 70mm iron?

[Pam Niedermayer]

I don't mind when I get a kiri box either, I just don't want to pay $100 for it....

I checked the seikikawa page, but I couldn't find full size blades - even with google translate. I think they talk size in a way that google translate understands or I don't understand. What is a "size 8" plane, is that a 70mm iron?

Yes, I usually don't need to buy the boxes; but then I so seldom buy sets of things, that it's usually for the planes I consider a box. However, since I learned to make dai early on, I seldom if ever buy planes, maybe one a year or so, if that.

I have no idea what a "size 8" plane denotes. Maybe shaku?

Pam

[David Weaver]

I'm beginning to think it was a mistranslation. Something on tsunesaburo's page translates as that next to the SKH51 55mm iron "trouble plane".

[David Weaver]

i *think* i saw today that a plain box is about 2500 yen.

I could live with that, though there'd be no calligraphy on it (i don't really care about that).

Still, the cardboard boxes that the hardware store gives out are fine with me.

I'd like to make a dai, but I haven't yet found an iron that is good that's cheaper without a dai than it is with one. I've been watching ebay for a couple of weeks, and so far I've only seen a very nice ogata iron that I'd love to make a dai for, and it's white steel, but in truth, I need an iron for a plane that will go prior to smoothing, and not another smoother - i just sold two of them. For that, I'd rather have blue #1 or really i just want another yamamoto iron like the two I just sold, but I can't get any response from kuroda now :(

[Stanley Covington]

Thank you, stan. The trouble with the good blacksmiths is that once they become known, their product prices go way up.

Exactly what you describe about white vs. blue steel is why I don't think anyone should buy inexpensive or moderately priced white steel planes (unless they are $50 and practice on fitting the iron), and certainly not a $200 white steel #2 "intermediate" plane. I would trust nakano and the guys you have mentioned to make a white steel plane that would be properly hardened and tempered and rival a blue steel plane for durability. The "cheapest" white steel iron and sub iron that I have seen that is from nakano is about $350 without a dai. I think that's a very reasonable price because he doesn't work in volume. I would've loved to hear an opinion on him, but I understand that the low volume of planes makes it harder for people to know who he is. When you look at the iron on his plane, it is nonspectacular looking for the cost, it's nice and clean, but no flowery mokume or anything like that. When you sharpen it and use it, then you find out why it costs what it costs. Other than one place exporting a few irons, the nakano planes are not available here, which I think is usually a plus. I have gotten export only good before, and they were inferior. Not unusable, but not as good.

Glad to hear tsunesaburo is recommended, because their full line of planes are about to become available here.

I have seen yokosaka and usui planes. Both are expensive by the time they get here (I think all usui planes may be expensive regardless). Maybe I can find one cheap some time.

I think your policy about not buying cheap shirogami planes is valid, not only for QC reasons, but because there is the chance you are actually buying a aogami steel plane sold as shirogami.

Sorry I couldn't get more info re Nakano. $350 for blade sans dai sounds pricey. Is that what you are paying in Japan?

My Usui plane is unusual. I bought it in Sendai before I had ever heard of him. The blade is bright, without carbon black. I thought it strange at the time, but the retailer could not explain why other than to say he sold lots of Usui's planes to the best carpenters and never had a single complaint. I later found out that Usui was, besides being a blacksmith, a serious, formally trained metallurgist, and had a vacuum oven for heat treating his blades that resulted in a very even temper with no surface oxidation. It cuts like mean woman's tongue.

His products have never been cheap, but since the Kezuroukai exposed the quality of his products to a bigger market, prices went way up.

[Stanley Covington]

I know that paying for kiri boxes is an unnecessary expense, especially with calligraphy;
but wooden boxes do protect the metal from rust as well as mechanical jarring.

Is Sekikawa the subject of your retailer in the last paragraph above? How much would blades, sans dai and subblade, cost?

Thanks,
Pam

Pam:

I cannot deny the truth of what you say about the boxes, and since the stigma associated with them by some craftsmen in Japan is not relevant in the States, I cannot fault you for valuing them. My point, which I am sure you caught, was that the box does not make the plane, anymore than the silk suit and gold chains makes the man.

The reference is indeed to Sekikawa. This thread has prompted me to look, and it appears that his stuff is readily available on the web. I have never bought Japanese planes or chisels on the web, so I will defer to your experience, but I am nervous about buying a handmade item as expensive as a plane without seeing it first. Has it worked out well for you so far?

I expect the blade alone would go for JPY 6-7,000 less.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

I checked the seikikawa page, but I couldn't find full size blades - even with google translate. I think they talk size in a way that google translate understands or I don't understand. What is a "size 8" plane, is that a 70mm iron?

If I follow the reference properly, I think what you are looking at is the "sun hachi" (sun pronounced the same as "soon" and meaning 30.3 inches, and "hachi" meaning eight of course) which is 1 sun + 8 bu, or 1.8 sun, or 54.54 mm. I think the translating software is not getting the "sun" translated properly.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

i *think* i saw today that a plain box is about 2500 yen.

I could live with that, though there'd be no calligraphy on it (i don't really care about that).

Still, the cardboard boxes that the hardware store gives out are fine with me.

I'd like to make a dai, but I haven't yet found an iron that is good that's cheaper without a dai than it is with one. I've been watching ebay for a couple of weeks, and so far I've only seen a very nice ogata iron that I'd love to make a dai for, and it's white steel, but in truth, I need an iron for a plane that will go prior to smoothing, and not another smoother - i just sold two of them. For that, I'd rather have blue #1 or really i just want another yamamoto iron like the two I just sold, but I can't get any response from kuroda now :(

I think you would be wise to use a piece of very stable wood. A good quality dai is worth the cost IMO. I have made four of them for Japanese planes over the years (shiage, scraper with HSS blade, kumiko thickness planer, and a old-style chip-breaker-less one) and while it is a useful exercise, I think I can buy a good dai cheaper than I can make one even if I count my time at minimum wage. I guess the problem is that you really need to see the wood yourself, or have access to a retailer you trust to select the best dai on your behalf instead of just shipping you the first one he pulls out of the bin.

My two cents.

Stan

[Pam Niedermayer]

i *think* i saw today that a plain box is about 2500 yen. ...

I'd like to make a dai, but I haven't yet found an iron that is good that's cheaper without a dai than it is with one. I've been watching ebay for a couple of weeks, and so far I've only seen a very nice ogata iron that I'd love to make a dai for, and it's white steel, but in truth, I need an iron for a plane that will go prior to smoothing, and not another smoother - i just sold two of them. For that, I'd rather have blue #1 or really i just want another yamamoto iron like the two I just sold, but I can't get any response from kuroda now :(

$30 is a very good price. These little boxes are very well made.

Dai for regular planes are typically $100 or so; but it appears the problem you're running into is that your vendors get the planes in toto, so it doesn't save them anything to separate dai and iron, especially since the dai are made to fit particular irons. But there are blacksmiths and vendors who don't prepackage everything. I ran into this type problem with the first dai I made. Since I won the class planing contest, I won Inomoto-san's plane. All of a sudden I went from none to two smoothing planes. What I finally realized was that I could make dai with different bedding angles for the irons I had on hand and swap the irons when needed. Most of the experts told me that wasn't good, that the dai need the iron to keep its shape; so I made a few iron duplicates out of desert ironwood to insert when the iron was elsewhere. Works great.

But if you can buy just the iron, you'd also save a lot in shipping costs. You just need some dry blanks hanging about, so I stocked up on 15-20 blanks right away. This is a good system. :)

Pam

[David Weaver]

Pam, i don't have any white oak, but I do have a lot of quartersawn hard maple (and it is dry). I originally thought I'd use it for moulding planes, and it is nice for them, I guess, but it's harder than needed for that and I've hoarded more wood for that.

There are several places selling the irons, but the goofy thing is that they generally aren't in the price range that I want. I just want a few simple blue steel/kamaji irons, but I don't want to buy them if the entire plane is the same cost.

i have smoothers at various bedding angles, and now I'm working backwards into planes for coarser use. Right now i'm just using one of my smoothers set very coarsely (i find i don't need as much camber with a japanese plane because of the ability, which is nice on a board that is already fairly flat). And two funjii planes for work more coarse than that (i had no qualms about heavily cambering irons), but they do not stay sharp too long - they're just cheap beginners leftovers.

The thing I liked so much about yamamoto planes is that he's in a coop with tsunesaburo and they share steels (according to a post from peter cowick) and he makes planes cheap. Even if I couldn't find one without a dai, getting a special cutting steel plane with a dai for $190 with shipping included is better than most places where I can find an iron, and though I don't have enough planes to be able to tell how well they stack up against the really finely made planes (just the one I have), they are good planes and tolerate hardwoods well.

Unfortunately, it's proving a lot less convenient to get them now that I only know of one person. I'm hoping stu can pick them up at some point.

[David Weaver]

I think I just satisfied my jones. Spending a little more money than I wanted to, but less than what the retail would be on what I'm buying. I didn't get it yet, waiting for arrangements, but I'll have to make a dai.

Now i have to go refill my kitty by selling off some stuff so that I can do more than windowshop at stu's joint in the near future.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pam, i don't have any white oak, but I do have a lot of quartersawn hard maple (and it is dry). I originally thought I'd use it for moulding planes, and it is nice for them, I guess, but it's harder than needed for that and I've hoarded more wood for that....

According to those more experienced than I, Live Oak is the only acceptable North American substitute.

Pam

[David Weaver]

I'm sure it would wear better than hard maple, but hard maple will be OK. I haven't seen live oak anywhere, let alone rift or quartered and dry. I guess live oak is more common in the south than it is up here.

What I have quartered (that would be large enough) is cherry (not close to suitable), black birch (not pretty), euro pear (would look nice, but too soft) and hard maple. I have something called "hard pear", too, but I don't know how well that would work, and I have no idea what it's like to work. It's probably not stable with changing moisture.

I think inomoto or someone said hard maple makes a suitable dai. One of the dai makers did, it may not have been inomoto.

I would imagine that suitable substitute to some would mean that the grain looks similar to white or red oak, even if it's no the same color, and live oak is the only attractive interlocked grain wood that grows in the US that I can think of. Maple will definitely look funny, but I can live with that.

I got one of alex gilmore's lovely Ogata matched iron and subblade sets in, just plain blue steel. I can bed that where I have my yamamoto 65 mm plane at this point and then use the yamamoto for work that is a little rougher. Right now, i'm making the yamamoto pull double duty, but i'd like to relieve the edges a little and I don't want to do that when it does some smoothing duty.

[David Weaver]

If I follow the reference properly, I think what you are looking at is the "sun hachi" (sun pronounced the same as "soon" and meaning 30.3 inches, and "hachi" meaning eight of course) which is 1 sun + 8 bu, or 1.8 sun, or 54.54 mm. I think the translating software is not getting the "sun" translated properly.

Stan

Thanks, Stan. That's helpful, i've seen "size 8" in several place, it's nice to know what it means.

[Stuart Tierney]

I hope I'm not crashing the party here...

I dunno if I mentioned to Dave in an email about the price of dai, but I was aiming to get them somewhere closer to $40 pre-cut, $25-30 or so as a raw block. Longer would be a little more, and buying an extra one with a plane would bring the price down a little more as well.


On the 'one blade/many dai' conundrum, Mr. Uozumi at Tsunesaburo bought this up with me before I had a chance to ask. It's not a stupid idea at all, and is something we're going to look into as an 'orderable item' rather than something that needs to be assembled from two distinct products. Blade matched to both (heck, it's a game of lego in there, pick a blade, grab a dai and hey presto! You got a working kanna.) as a counter to the BU planes where you switch out a blade for difficult wood. The idea of placing a 'dummy blade' in the dai is a good one, and I'll run it past them as well. They actually made the suggestion there, not me, so they're VERY much aware of the problems, and we are working to nip the 'kanna are for softwood' thing in the bud. There's a few things that can be tried, but generally it's going to be a case of standing up the blade until the wood stops tearing out.

The only thing stopping progress at the moment is time. Time to get these kanna up and listed and time for me to get back to Tsunesaburo with a workbench and the most difficult wood I've got so we can sort out what's really going to work and what's only speculation.

(And if anyone out there has suggestions, I'm all ears!)


But on the Kiri boxes, you need to get into the nosebleed stuff to get one out of Tsunesaburo. Even their blue/mokume has a paper box...

(And Koyamaichi keeps telling me to order full sets of chisels to get boxes. I keep asking, he keeps saying no. ;) )

[David Weaver]

Time to get these kanna up and listed

Yeah, ...you're killin us! Now i have to make a dai.

I don't remember discussing the dai, but as an add-on with a plane, it would be a nice thing if not for the switching irons thing, just to have a dai sitting around the next time one comes across an iron without one.

With a *sharp* plane, most wood doesn't tearout smoothing with a standard 8/10 dai. Very very little with 45 degrees, and I haven't had any appreciable tearout at all with 47.5 degrees. I haven't done anything harder than maple, though. Cocobolo goes through infill planes like regular wood does.

One aside, odate mentions that a back bevel is perfectly acceptable on an iron for two things:
1) a new very hard iron that is brittle, to strengthen the edge until you're into the "good stuff"
2) abrasive woods like cocobolo

If it's ok for him...well, i would do it even if it wasn't.

[Stuart Tierney]

Dave, "size 8" actually equates to a 70mm blade width...

http://www.tsune36.co.jp/shin_03.html

I don't know how they get that though, I'll have to ask because as Stan points out, 1sun/8bu is 54.5mm...

(I think of them as decimal inches, 10 to the foot.)


Possibly an archaic measure, but carpenters and such have always been pretty consistent with their measures over the centuries. The taxman was far more flexible.

[Stuart Tierney]

Yeah, but Odate-san also uses a hammer to adjust, and I'd get a whack in the head if I tried that myself, here, within striking distance of the folk who make the things...

Initially, I've designated my co-pilot as the 'token woodworker' who needs to be able to pick up the plane, and get good results straight out of the gate. She's not got very much interest in cutting wood (but does take some interest now) so she's the token "know nothing", and the plane has to work for her without much meddling from me or anyone else.

If I was selling the things face to face, I'd be able to make adjustments and give lessons. I can't do that, so they need to work right. If that means a few tolerable compromises at the ground floor, so be it.

Now, back to work.

Oh, for general amusement, let me know how this looks to you all...

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=page&id=10&chapter=5

[Pam Niedermayer]

...I don't remember discussing the dai, but as an add-on with a plane, it would be a nice thing if not for the switching irons thing, just to have a dai sitting around the next time one comes across an iron without one.

...One aside, odate mentions that a back bevel is perfectly acceptable on an iron for two things:
1) a new very hard iron that is brittle, to strengthen the edge until you're into the "good stuff"
2) abrasive woods like cocobolo

I was the one who mentioned making multiple dai for a single blade (set); but your idea of having a spare dai hanging about waiting for an orphan blade set probably won't work. These blades are hand made, different enough even for an ostensible same width blade not to fit as well as you're like.

The only time I've ever made what would be called a micro bevel is one the chisel I typically use for chopping plane mortises, and it's for a very thick chisel, to strengthen it. Never have done a back bevel.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

...On the 'one blade/many dai' conundrum, Mr. Uozumi at Tsunesaburo bought this up with me before I had a chance to ask. It's not a stupid idea at all, and is something we're going to look into as an 'orderable item' rather than something that needs to be assembled from two distinct products. Blade matched to both (heck, it's a game of lego in there, pick a blade, grab a dai and hey presto! You got a working kanna.) as a counter to the BU planes where you switch out a blade for difficult wood. The idea of placing a 'dummy blade' in the dai is a good one, and I'll run it past them as well. They actually made the suggestion there, not me, so they're VERY much aware of the problems, and we are working to nip the 'kanna are for softwood' thing in the bud. There's a few things that can be tried, but generally it's going to be a case of standing up the blade until the wood stops tearing out. ...

...But on the Kiri boxes, you need to get into the nosebleed stuff to get one out of Tsunesaburo. Even their blue/mokume has a paper box..

That's so cool that Tsuenesaburo and I are in synch, love it. I have several of his/their planes and like them a lot.

I suspect the thing about kiri boxes is that they like making iron, not boxes; so they'll make one if you insist, but you'll pay for it. Makes sense, I otoh, like making wood and hate anything that smacks of blacksmithing.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

Yeah, but Odate-san also uses a hammer to adjust, and I'd get a whack in the head if I tried that myself, here, within striking distance of the folk who make the things...

Oh, for general amusement, let me know how this looks to you all...

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=page&id=10&chapter=5

Inomoto-san uses a dai blank for bashing the blade; but then he has blanks to spare.

That page is one of the most informative I've seen on the web. Congratulations.

Pam

[Stuart Tierney]

Inomoto-san uses a dai blank for bashing the blade; but then he has blanks to spare.

That page is one of the most informative I've seen on the web. Congratulations.

Pam

Dais are not too expensive, not really. I've given thought to offering a mallet kit, as in a chunk of akagashi and a twig for the handle. Some assembly required. ;)


The webpage, it's only for steel but mostly finished. Still a few tweaks required, but ready enough if I need it to be.

Still working on this one though... http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=page&id=9&chapter=5

[Pam Niedermayer]

Dais are not too expensive, not really. I've given thought to offering a mallet kit, as in a chunk of akagashi and a twig for the handle. Some assembly required. ;) ...

My favorite mallet for dai tuning is the Viet Namese version (http://www.antiquetools.com/viet/index.html) shown on Joel's (Tools for Woodworking) site, choose "Tools" and scroll down to "Mallet." Took about ten minutes to make.

Dai aren't cheap here, so I don't consider any of my stock "to spare." :)

Pam

[Stanley Covington]

Dave, "size 8" actually equates to a 70mm blade width...

http://www.tsune36.co.jp/shin_03.html

I don't know how they get that though, I'll have to ask because as Stan points out, 1sun/8bu is 54.5mm...

(I think of them as decimal inches, 10 to the foot.)


Possibly an archaic measure, but carpenters and such have always been pretty consistent with their measures over the centuries. The taxman was far more flexible.

You are right、it refers to a 70mm plane blade　with a 63mm wide cutting edge. And I admit I don't know where the designation comes from. This page has some useful reference information. http://www.kanna-ya.net/item01.html

I have been unable to find anyone or any source to explain the reason, other than one source who said that ８０ years ago, a sun hachi 寸８　plane blade was 54mm wide. Apprently, it is a relatively recent convention.　Not very satisfying. I will poke around some more and see what I can find out.

Stan

Stan

[David Weaver]

I was the one who mentioned making multiple dai for a single blade (set); but your idea of having a spare dai hanging about waiting for an orphan blade set probably won't work. These blades are hand made, different enough even for an ostensible same width blade not to fit as well as you're like.

The only time I've ever made what would be called a micro bevel is one the chisel I typically use for chopping plane mortises, and it's for a very thick chisel, to strengthen it. Never have done a back bevel.

Pam

I don't know if I was tired or if I didn't mention enough detai, I figured I would cut the spare dai from a blank, but i'm generally not the kind of guy who goes short on tools to have a spare dai.

I was just hoping stu would toss in a cheap blank so I could make a dai for another iron. I still haven't looked up live oak, but it does strike me that the interlocked grain gives you the chance to present a part of the wood to the sole that isn't the weakest, unlike a lot of non-interlinked wood where what's presented as the sole of the plane will be growth rings.

I guess we'll see how well maple does. I'm not inclined to use anything that will present face grain from maple to the sole because i wouldn't like that grain orientation otherwise, though maple face grain has nice durability. I would imagine the early wood presented to the sole in a quartersawn fashion won't have as much durability, but in as much as I can make a dai with $5 worth of wood and make another one when it poops out, I don't know if it matters much.

I'll have to check the length of my hard pear blank, I was intending to use it for saw handles, but I just ran into 10 board feet of dead quartersawn 8/4 european pear. If it's long enough, i'll probably hack it up. it's supposed to be as hard as maple, but I can't see a lot of prevailing grain in it, so it might be a better candidate for a dai.

[David Weaver]

T minus three seconds and counting until the fuzz shows up an busts up this discussion.

Anyone know anything about Ogata? Too late for me to do anything about it if someone doesn't like him.

I recall seeing a comment on the old harrelson stanley board from a member who was a bit miffed that an Ogata plane was generally available back them from someone who would export. However, their price was $350 for anyone buying in japan and $500 for english speakers.

If I were going to spend $500, I would go right back to nakano, but a matched blade and subblade from ogata was about half of that. No need to talk about where to get them, I got the last one by poking around and asking if any that weren't listed were available.

Being that it's blue #1, there's not a lot of risk it will be a dud and as a secondary side bonus, it's pretty without being gawdy.

[Stuart Tierney]

T minus three seconds and counting until the fuzz shows up an busts up this discussion.




Sorry.

But the pages aren't 'live' yet, and there's no other way to canvass them for dissemination than to link into them directly.

Still trying to find something that will let me build a basic site quickly, but for now, the store software is letting me do WYSIWYG on the fly, and it's secure.


Still bashing stuff into it. The options list on the planes are giving me fits... :(

Stu.

[David Weaver]

oops - the ogata blade sets that pitched through on ebay that were not white steel were sold as "swedish super blue". I've seen reference to swedish blue, but I haven't seen that before.

Super blue is a yasuki product, IIRC. Most swedish stuff I've seen is carbon. Who knows.

I don't really have to much concern about what it is as long as it tolerates hardwoods and it's not soft.

[David Weaver]

Can anyone tell me who has the dai signature that looks like a little snowman?

I satisfied another jones today, for a good white steel plane (Mosaku).

For some reason, I thought the snowman was inomoto's stamp, but where I thought I saw it had something different.

Not important that it's inomoto's stamp, just curious to find out who the maker was.

Bit risky buying planes off of ebay when you can't read japanese, eh? It sure looks like mosaku's irons, though, and the price was something I can tolerate - i would imagine the seller took a hit. I didn't want to go cheap on white steel - not worth the risk.

[David Weaver]

I think your policy about not buying cheap shirogami planes is valid, not only for QC reasons, but because there is the chance you are actually buying a aogami steel plane sold as shirogami.

Sorry I couldn't get more info re Nakano. $350 for blade sans dai sounds pricey. Is that what you are paying in Japan?

My Usui plane is unusual. I bought it in Sendai before I had ever heard of him. The blade is bright, without carbon black. I thought it strange at the time, but the retailer could not explain why other than to say he sold lots of Usui's planes to the best carpenters and never had a single complaint. I later found out that Usui was, besides being a blacksmith, a serious, formally trained metallurgist, and had a vacuum oven for heat treating his blades that resulted in a very even temper with no surface oxidation. It cuts like mean woman's tongue.

His products have never been cheap, but since the Kezuroukai exposed the quality of his products to a bigger market, prices went way up.

Stanley, I missed some of this. turns out I was not correct, it is $350 with a dai and subblade for the nakano iron. I would think the price in japan would be slightly lower, but with the exchange rate, I don't know. That would be just under 30,000 jpy. When you see what we're faced with over here, as far as retailers go, it looks pretty reasonable!

I think Usui's planes go for a lot more, but I could be confused. What we can get here is limited, and since it is difficult to search japanese pages with an english language search engine, options for going overseas for full service are only two places. There are other guys a little cheaper, but as i've found it, sometimes they just flat out don't return emails to close a sale. Tsunesaburo's planes are only sold by one retailer here, and they are expensive. As are funahiro's, and I saw a comment on HS's board by a knowledgeable member that lumped funahiro planes in with a group where they are "good, but the reputation has outpaced the skill of the blacksmith" (suggesting a value shopper looking for quality should go elsewhere).

I did receive my ogata iron and subblade in the mail, it'll be interesting to compare it to the nakano. The seller called it "swedish blue steel", and I don't know what that means, but he is, as far as I know, the most reputable seller in the US. Maybe it's a boutique steel. Nakano's work is definitely the neatest and most tidy I've seen in irons, but like I said, I haven't seen a lot. Ogata's is plenty clean and original looking.

Hopefully, I can get an assist with the kanjii on the irons when I get the other one, I will take a picture of both. No reason to post pictures twice.

[David Weaver]

Just to follow up - what a difference a couple of years makes on the price of the planes! Speaking about the yamamoto plane that I mentioned was about $200 or so shipped a few years ago.

Got a response from Takeshi Kuroda - took about a month, month and a half?

It would be about $285 with shipping for another one with special cutting steel, and $260 for one in blue #1 (presumably still a nimura full stamp dai with a ledge).

Two years of inflation and very unfavorable exchange rate, I guess.

In the end I found two planes over here, anyway. Time will tell if it was a good decision.

[David Wong]

If shipping is included in the price, it might not be too bad. I just received a 6.1kg package from Japan. EMS service postage cost was 7550 yen - $93.

[David Weaver]

I'm assuming it's not, but I didn't ask, since I got stuff elsewhere between then and now, but you're right - the EMS shouldn't be that much. I think takeshi charged me about $15-$20 for EMS the last time I ordered a plane a couple of years ago, but it was through ebay, so he may have been covering shipping costs a little.

When the rubber hits the road, a 70mm cutting steel plane with a full-signature nimura dai for $265 is still a good deal, just maybe not quite as easy as a knee-jerk "buy it" as it was when it was $180 plus ship, or whatever it was.

Things change, I was very surprised on ebay that the price difference between cutting steel and blue #1 was $5 or $10. Now it looks like it is either/or with the irons (you must get the iron with the black wrought face to get the cutting steel, as opposed to the prior auctions where it was implied you could get either- as far as i know (and i can't read kanjii), I only ever ordered cutting steel, and one of them came with the face that you've seen now, and the other with the black wrought face). it's $25 or $30 difference now, still not much of a difference to get a special steel (one that I had confused with super blue for a while).

[Stuart Tierney]

If shipping is included in the price, it might not be too bad. I just received a 6.1kg package from Japan. EMS service postage cost was 7550 yen - $93.

Interesting...

Since 7550 yen equates to a 4-4.5kg package to Zone 2A with additional insurance premium, which costs 50 yen per 20,000 yen unit.


I spend a lot of money at Japan Post. ;)


Must be a special discount rate of some kind. I guess you'd have to spend more than the $1K per month I spend there to get that.

[David Wong]

Oops. Stu you are right about the charge. I checked the package and it was 4.05kg. Just some stuff from friends.

[Stuart Tierney]

My mum wishes shipping from Australia was as cheap as shipping from Japan...

FWIW, my local Post Office has resorted to fudging the scales when it's something like 4.05kg... It's not a discount, and it doesn't really affect me at all since I don't pay shipping costs myself. But still, they do it. I figure I keep the place propped up and profitable to some extent. Or maybe not... ;)

[Leigh Betsch]

You guys knock this stuff off!;) I'm already into Stu for a chisel. If all this talk about HSS plane blades doesn't end I'll be sliding down a Japanese slope along with the rest of you.
By the way, great web site Stu, helps to educate some of us.

[David Weaver]

don't discount the good white steel, too! I finally found a good white steel plane in the last couple of months. It's not like it's as durable as HSS, but it's durable and hard for what it is and man does it leave a nice surface - blindingly sharp for how durable it is.

[Howard Pollack]

Can you tell us the maker and "model"? thanks -Howard

[David Weaver]

Mosaku (kikuo kanda), not sure what model - from what I can find of his stuff, his irons are similar, but often slightly different in appearance on the soft iron - I'll have to look up what stanley told me. He's retired (mosaku). I wouldn't hestitate to buy white steel #1 from any of the better blacksmiths, but it can be relatively expensive compared to a decent quality blue #1 plane, and lower priced white steel planes tend to be sort of uninspiring (either not that hard or not durable or both), just like like lower-priced white steel chisels. That makes it nice to find one used if you can wait.

There are a lot of white #2 planes around. White #1 is apparently harder to get right.

[Chris M Pyle]

Stu, will you be getting any of the Tusnesubaro specialty planes? Rebate? Dovetail? Chamfer plane?

I don't know if the currently make those but I thought that I had seen some somewhere?

[Stuart Tierney]

Yes, absolutely.

The problem is there are dozens of them, and in 3 different steels as well, blue on soft steel, blue on kamaji, HSS on soft steel.

Got a few hundred pictures of them a couple weeks ago as well, it's just time to get it all sorted out and up for perusal. ;)

Plus adding a few new saws as well by some obscure gentleman by the name of Mitsukawa-san...

Stu.