Higher grade saw or saw and dust collection?

[Richard Galloway]

Hello all, I have a question on an addition to my shop that will happen later this summer.
Should I buy a high-end cabinet saw and do without dust collection or buy a lower grade/ brand of saw and use the savings to add dust collection? I have been doing wood working since high school ("77") with an old contractor grade Rockwell/ Delta saw that is on it's last legs and the wife has told me we can replace it with a new one once we have saved up the $$. Limit is going to be in the $2,000 to $2,500 range if I want it before next winter. I doubt my old saw is going to make it much longer.
Comments, suggestions? :confused:

[Joseph Tarantino]

high end cabinet saws, like sawstops and unisaws, usually require dust collection, so buying the expensive saw without DC probably runs contrary to what i believe the manufacturers will specify. i'd go with a moderate saw, like a grizzly hybrid and a DC set up. check out the grizzly site:

http://grizzly.com/

they carry a wealth of equipment. in your price range, you could almost outfit a whole shop there.

if you are not in a hurry, check out CL. just avoid the newer jet and powermatic products, as those brands almost never get rated "top tool" or "top values" in the tool tests appearing in popular woodworking periodicals.

[Prashun Patel]

If my budget were $2000, I'd buy a Grizzly cabinet saw (The G0690 or the G1023R) and a good DC.

[Van Huskey]

You need dust collection whether you have a Rigid or one of the big four (Delta Uni, SS ICS, PM2000 or Geberal 650R) period, a better saw does not suck itself clean.

Not sure what publications Joseph reads but the PM2000 along with the SS ICS and PCS and new Uni are always at the top of the reviews.

That all said the $2,500 top end is unlikely to get you one of the top four cabinet saws anyway(much less DC also) so you are looking at second tier. So my choice would be a Grizzly 1023 or 690/1 and solid dust collection for less than 2K.

[Rick Moyer]

Are you looking to keep the shop cleaner or protect your health? If it is your health that is a concern, then a dust mask/respirator is your first priority as nothing else will be as effective. Then you need to decide to what level you want to control dust in the shop. If you are just comparing table saws for cutting wood, most of the decent ones will do that. I like Prashun's recommendation. Protect your lungs and then spend whatever you can on the tools you need.

[David Hostetler]

It would be VERY easy to blow the entire budget on dust collection alone. For what it's worth though, Dust collection is one of those things well worth doing. Your budget is too low for a SawStop PCS, a Unisaw, or a Powermatic... If I had your expressed needs, and budget, I would try to lay my hands on a Grizzly G0691, and then at least get a decent dust colllector. Mind you, full on cyclones tend to be pricey as well, but you should be able to fit something decent into your price range...

[John Sanford]

Get a top end USED cabinet saw, and good DC. You can pick up used PM66's and Unis for under $1k, if you're patient. Otherwise, as noted if the reason for the DC is health focused, you can get better results with a respirator and safety goggles, and spend the rest on a saw. You can get a SawStop 1.75hp PCS for what you're looking at, or a second tier cabinet saw (Grizzly, Shopfox, etc), or maybe even a used new Uni. Lots of options, and you have time to spec things out.

[jared herbert]

Get a used unisaw or similar, one should show up somewhere on CL or ebay, especially if you are willing to drive a ways to pick it up and are a little patient. Then as mentioned above use the savings to start on your dust collector system. A basic system is not that expensive and well worth it. The perfect solulution would be to find a used saw AND dust collector on CL that is just down the block from you. Do not be afraid to buy used, All of my machines have been used and have never had a major problem, they just required a little tinkering to get everything adjusted. Jared

[Larry Edgerton]

For that kind of budget you could easily do both. I would either build or purchase a Bill Pentz designed system, Clearview is not out of reach, and look for a used cabinet saw. I bought a PM66 for $500, so it can be done if you are in no hurry. If you get the basics of the dust collection in place you can add to it, and be all the healthier for it, adding to it as needed aand as money becomes available. Check out Bills web site, there is much you can do yourself for no all that much cash.

[Bob Elliott]

Get the biggest saw you can and upgrade the dust collector later. You are making a big investment in a TS and you don't want to take a loss later if you need to sell and upgrade.

In 2003 I bought a 12" Bridgewood cabinet saw. It was more saw than I needed at the time but in hindsight I am very gald I bought it. I will never need another TS. For many years I used a dust collector that was the Delta version of this DC: http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=21255&filter=dust%20collector (http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=21255&filter=dust%20collector) I found it at Lowes on clearance for $89. Later I found a Delta 50-760 DC on craigslist for free with a burned up motor. I made an adapter for a motor a friend gave me and I had a decent DC for my small garage shop for free. I sold the small DC for more than I paid for it and came out ahead. I had a thread on this DC repair but I think it was lost in the transition to the new forum because my older threads aren't there.

I am sure some woodworkers would have made fun of my baby DC but for the price it served me well for years. It was annoying emptying the bag often but in the long run it was worth it because I put my money in the best TS I could afford and I don't regret it one bit. Woodworking is a hobby for me and we have a tight budget at home. I am resourceful and handy with the internet. If you look long enough you can find good deals.

Another route you may want to consider is to buy used. I would scour craigslist for TS and DC deals. I see them all the time in the SF Bay area near where I live. If you are willing to drive you can use http://claz.org/ (http://claz.org/) to extend your search radius.

This is my $0.02. I hope this helps.

[hank dekeyser]

Like I tell everyone - How much are you / do you use the saw ?? What other equipment do you use that "requires" dust collection ? I also have an old Rockwell contractors saw- it is delegated to cutting tennons - so the old guy still is useful -

Personally , I would buy a used Uni-Saw with a good fence, and go through / refurbish it. If you have to you can even build your own fence (got a welder ?) I was faced with buying a new fence a while back- I thought the prices were insane, so I built my own for less than $25 (probly 50 ish today)
On a DC I wouldn't go any smaller that a 1200cfm- they sell for $150- $400 used or new doesnt matter, make sure the impeller isnt broken, cracked, etc. bags are cheap (or build your own) yes they sell DC bag media and it sews easily.

Take your time regardless if you buy new or used - there are some really good deals to be had - right place - right time - just know what you need and be ready to commit when the deal presents itself.

$2000 bucks can buy alot of very good 2nd hand tools !!

[glenn bradley]

I am prejudiced now that I have to wear a respirator (even though I have a cyclone, bagger and ambient cleaners) whenever I work with certain woods, even hand sanding. This was never a problem for all those years that I worked without adequate dust collection . . . then suddenly it was . . . and there's no going back:eek:. So, factor my prejudice in when I say; dust collections first, dust makers second.

Of the Thi-Chi units that may fit your budget (Powermatic, Delta, Jet, Grizzly, etc.) Grizzly seems to give the most bang for the buck. There are many happy owners of all these brands out there although many folks get romantically attached to certain colors ;).

The Griz G0440 cyclone I run and the proven G1023 would fit your budget. I'm sure there are other combinations that would do so as well. The amount of saw you can get for $1200 has really opened up so that leaves you some good choices and adequate funds for your lungs.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

Best: find a nice used cabinet saw then you'll have money for dust collection. Next best -- buy a grizzly or jet cabinet saw and then go for a harbor freight dust collector with a canister filter upgrade or equivalent. If you don't have many power tools -- you can move a hose from tool to tool for now. Duct work is expensive even for a cheap dust collector

[Richard Galloway]

Thank you everyone for the comments. The consensus seems to be to check for used machines and do both systems. I have already been watching CL and Ebay, but until I have the cash in hand it is all just market research. I don't think I have a "new" tool in the shop... no wait, my "Sears" 12" band saw was new Way back when I purchased it just out of high school.. a Long time ago. I already have a Grizzly 15" planer and a Grizzly shaper (both waiting on parts right now) so refurbishing used is not an issue. I'll be checking out the suggested systems in the posts above and make it a routine to check CL for what is available. I am not beyond traveling up to a day's drive each way to pickup a tool if its the one I want so that leaves a lot of territory open for looking.
I am leaning toward a 12" saw if I can find the right one, but would not turn down the "right" 10" one either. I'll keep everyone posted on what happens as it happens.

Thanks again.

[Cary Falk]

You could get a G1023RL and a 2hp cyclone. You can drag a hose from tool to tool for now. You could also get a 3hp bagged unit and turn it into a Bill Pentz cyclone later on.

[Frank Drew]

I'd get as good a tablesaw as I could (and I'd definitely look for a good quality, used machine first), but I wouldn't want to operate most woodworking equipment without dust collection; aside from the respiratory issues, a shop all covered in sawdust is, to me, totally depressing, and I'm not at all a neatness freak. The biggest offenders in terms of throwing dust all over, IMO, are the tablesaw, planer, router, and lathe; bandsaw, jointer and drill press, a little less so.

No need, though, for an expensive, fully piped-in system running to all your machines, certainly not for a home shop; for under $300 you can get a very decent 2 h.p. system and drag the hose from machine to machine, as Cary suggests. Worked for me for years, and I did the work for a living.

[Joseph Tarantino]

Not sure what publications Joseph reads but the PM2000 along with the SS ICS and PCS and new Uni are always at the top of the reviews.

FYI, i was referring to wood magazine. their most recent tests of 3hp cabinet, hybrid and contractor table saws all included jet and powermatic products. and in all three tests, no WMH tool group product was rated as either a top tool or a top value. i just believe that if a manufacturer chooses to charge a premium for their products, they should, occasionally, stand out in comparative reviews. the only time wmh products have received any recognition in wood magazine tool tests in the last 5 years are in tool categories where they are one of only a few manuacturers producing that product (e.g., drum sanders, air cleaners and large combo jointer/planers)

perhaps Van Huskey can provide some information on the publication(s) which rate(ed) the pm2000 as a top tool in a comparative tool test.