DMT for Flattening?

[Andrew Gibson]

As you all may know I recently had the good fortune of winning a few ribbons in the state fair :)

Along with the ribbons I won $300, wohoo!!!!!

My plan is to pick up a shoulder plane, and a DMT stone for flattening my water stones... and eventually maybe some shaptons.

I was looking at the DMT's and am pretty sure that the course/x course duosharp stone would be the right way to go.
I am trying to decide if I should go with the 10" stone or the 8".
the 10" is 10" long and 4"wide, while the 8" is 8" long and 2-5/8" wide.

I am leaning toward the wider stone, but thought I would see if others have one or the other and what they would buy again.

[Jon Toebbe]

I got the 10" coarse/extra-coarse and am very pleased with the results. Flattening chisel/plane iron faces is fast and easy. Flattening waterstones and building up a nice slurry is quick and reasonably non-messy. The non-continuous pattern on the diamond stone makes the "stiction" manageable while still giving good feedback to let you know when you're dead flat.

[David Weaver]

the 8 is plenty large for flattening any stone you'll use.

[Tristan Williams]

I had a nice winfall too this Christmas, and spent it by splurging on the full set of DMT DiaSharp 8*3 stones, the ones with the continuous diamond surface. They're pretty awesome - the XX Coarse and Coarse make really short work of just about anything! The 8 is indeed big enough for flattening everything I've thrown at it so far. I'm very happy with them. I don't know about flattening waterstones - this was a complete replacement for my older Scary Sharp setup.

[Larry Edgerton]

I've been using the same DMT mounted on a piece of plastic for flattening my water stones for about 20 years. Still works just fine. I like the longer stone so I can use longer strokes to speed it up, its not like its fun. I do mine under the water in the sink, its faster than letting the slurry build up.

[John Coloccia]

I have the 10" in course/fine (blue/red) and have found that to be the most useful combination.

[Bill Rittner]

I have the 10" set and use the black for flattening my Norton water stones. However, a 9X12 granite surface plate and #220 wet/dry will work as well and is a lot cheaper and flatter.

[Jonathan McCullough]

I've bought and used the 8" DMT DuoSharps over the years. They're fast, effective, and quick, and like most things still made in the USA, I found that they have excellent customer service. Don't have experience with the 10 x 4" size, but would imagine it would be useful for flattening water stones.

[Niels Cosman]

i've got a 10" black/blue and red/green i love them. I use the black for flattening only with my norton stones. i use the rest to start the prepping the backs of new blades. I think the extra size is nice to distribute the wear over the surface. I find it much it's quicker less complicated than sandpaper/flat thing i am flattening continuously.

[Johnny Kleso]

I bought two DMT's at Amazon as they had an insane price a few years ago.. The price changed the very next day some many woodnetters had bought the 11" stones for $38 if I remember correcty..
I use the coarse for flattening and have not used the x-fine yet but maybe should have used the x-fine for flattening as it has more stones per sq in..

Not $38 but $57 for 11"
http://www.amazon.com/DMT-D11F-Continuous-Diamond-Sharpening/dp/B0001WP1HO/ref=sr_1_32?ie=UTF8&qid=1297541866&sr=8-32

The big sizes work for me as most of my stones are 10" if you have smaller stones you can get 8" DMT's for about $30

[Charles McKinley]

There was a thread here a few days ago on flattening water stones. If this is the main purpose for the DMT I would recommend a cement block for flattening the stones and puttint the extra $$ towards other tools/ stones. If they will also be used for other sharpening I like my DMT. I have the 10x4 coarse/fine.

[Orlando Gonzalez]

David is right. An 8" will do fine. I have both the 8" and 10" in coarse/x-coarse and I use the 8" more than the 10." But my #1 diamond plate for flattening all my stones is the Atoma #400 from Stuart Tierney at toolsfromjapan-dot-com. The DMTs are my backup diamond plates.

[john brenton]

I like to have the 10, but I use it for sharpening too, so it's nice to have the extra long runway.

Make sure you check ebay before you buy from anywhere. I got mine a few months ago for $80 shipping included.

[David Weaver]

OBG - I was scouting around for your email address the other day (and couldn't find it) to see if you still had that muji continental smoother to try to beg it off of you, but I found another one new in the interim.

I know schtoo sells stuff from japan, but considering there is nobody in the US who seems to carry the full line of stuff that muji has, I would LOVE to see him pick it up. I have had way less than stellar experience with folks directly from China (who tend to be westerners fencing mujis goods on ebay or whatever, and not a reflection of the woodwell/muji group itself), even disregarding that shipping from china is uber expensive and very slow.

[Andrew Yang]

I've been using a DMT to flatten my waterstones, but was a little concerned after using it to flatten the back of an old Stanley No. 720 chisel. There's a bit of a discoloration on the DMT from grime/rust/patina off the chisel. I wouldn't think these things are too delicate?

[David Weaver]

If you leave metal on it, it's going to rust (and no matter what you do, you're always going to leave a little something on it). Just use the thing again and it'll make its way off the critical parts (the surface of the diamonds) - don't worry about it. They lose their silvery appearance once you use them with metal for a bit, but should keep cutting unless you do something really heinous and actually rub the electroplating off.

I have pretty much worn one of them out on both sides, but it still does cut. It's pretty ugly looking, but like I said, it still does cut - just slowly.

[Andrew Gibson]

Thanks for all the thoughts all.
I think I am going to go with the large stone. I plan to use one side for dedicated flattening stones, and the other side for whatever heavy work needs to be done.

it seems to me the larger size will be convenient and worth the cost in the long run.

[Mike Holbrook]

Orlando, is it the Flattening plate made for Shapton that you are calling the Atoma? On the site the only reference I see to Atoma "Economy" is for a replacement rubber base that I guess fits the plate or maybe just stones.

I bought the economy flattening plate quite a ways back and medium and fine grits but have not used it yet. The instructions are not in english. The picture on the site you refer to looks like my sharpening device. I think it is a big hunk of cast iron, very heavy. The grit containers designate which Shapton stones the grit should be used for. I also have a few old King stones and I am thinking about filling a gap in my stone collection with one or two of Lee Valley's Sigma stones. I just have one usable Shapton ( Pro 2000) since my 8000 got dropped and broken. I have been trying to use my medium King stone but it is veeery slow. I am all about speed sharpening now and LV says the Sigma stones are very fast.

Will the metal Atoma? device I have handle flattening my strange collection of stones?

I am probably going to order at least a couple DMT diamond "stones" too, but more for the coarse work on my chisels, plane blades....

[Orlando Gonzalez]

Mike,

The Atoma is the "economy" w/o the rubber base. The base you can get locally from various vendors such as LV and the like. The only thing the Atoma won't touch is the Sigma #120 and frankly I don't what will except 36g SiC powder on a steel plate.

The Atoma is a sheet of diamonds that is attached to a precision ground 1/4" thick aluminum plate. It looks similar to the DiaSharp from DMT but the Atoma sheet is replaceable while the DiaSharp diamonds are directly applied to the aluminum plate. I'll PM you with the particluars.

IIRC, the Sigma Select II at LV are primarily for HSS and the like. The Sigma Hard/Sigma Soft are more suited for O-1 & A-2. But I would contact Stu and ask him to set you down the right path. I have the Sigma Hard (#120, #700, 1K, 6K, 8K, 10K) and one Sigma Select II (#240).

I sold my Shaptons (Pro/GS), Kings, Bester, Naniwa SS because I feel,that for me, the Sigmas (and my Suehiro Rika and Arashiyama) are a better stone overall. I'm not knocking the other stones in anyway whatsoever because they are good stones and have served others well.

[David Weaver]

About the only thing that will probably beat a SP #120 without costing a lot and without going to a very coarse grit is probably 80 or 100 grit diamonds on a loose plate with an iron holder. You can go until a blood vessel bursts in your forehead, and they cut HSS like it's carbon steel.

The SP 120 might be cheaper, though. It's probably about $45 or so to put a kanaban and loose diamond powder (not paste, powder) together. I lube it with WD40. It opened up a whole other world of getting old pitted double irons that otherwise weren't worth the time given the $$ they're worth. A new iron takes about 10 minutes to get to a mirror shine now instead of 40, and I haven't had any old double iron take more than 45 minutes no matter how pitted.

Maybe stu can put some loose diamonds in his store, too...after tsunesaburo, and I'm going to bend his ear about yamamoto for while.

I got the loose ones that I got from a supplier on ebay for $1 a carat, but they're less than that now. Got a 20 carat bag and figured "i'm going to be buying little baggies of diamonds all the time", but through about 30 irons of all flavors and shapes, I've only used about half of the baggie, maybe less.

I wasn't quite as pleased with the results of loose diamonds for other finer grits and maintenance honing, I just don't like the edge as well as off of a stone and then chrome oxide strops. I wonder how the SP stones that stu has and that LV now has (the IIs i guess) cut in terms of comparison to a diamond. I would imagine a lot alike, fast with deep narrow grooves?

[Mike Holbrook]

I read some good things about the SP 120 above. I wonder how this stone compares to the DMT diamond stones that seem to be so popular, from a user perspective as opposed to a chart? I have a version of Shapton's flattening plate; the only english on the box is COMPACT and Shapton, the rest is Japanese. I believe this was the original plate before the very expensive model came out. It looks/feels like it is cast iron?, with a rubber cover. I have Shapton Medium and Fine grit to go with it. and can buy the coarser grits. I also have a nice big slab of Granite, bought from Woodcraft, which is dimensioned and flattened for use as a sharpening surface ( scary sharp). I have used wet/dry sand papers on it. I like the stone & papers but the paper seems to get funky quickly and become a maintenance nightmare. I was hoping that I could obtain more grits for my plate and granite block to handle my flattening needs and handle everything else with the Sigma stones? I don't guess there is much of a market for my 3 King stones so I will probably keep them as my fall backs. They are slow but we do seem to be able to understand each other...

I have been leveling the stone on my Tormek and trying some plane blades... again...for a few days. I have decided to find another home for it and all its little attachments as I do not seem to be able to make it work for me.

PS
I got a note back from Stuart that answered most of my questions so I went ahead and ordered: SP 120, SP 700, Special II 6,000, Special II 10,000. Stu seemed to think the Special II 6,000 was a better stone for me than the SP 6,000 and not significantly softer, so I used the same logic for the 10,000 stone going with the Special II again. Stu felt that at the higher grits the difference in hardness between the SP & Special II stones starts becoming a wash. I will try my Shapton 2,000 instead of a SP 1,000 for a while, may actually match up to the SP 700 better. I also ordered a Suehiro "free size" waterstone base, single rod with tray. I'm tired of working on top of or within a water container.

[Orlando Gonzalez]

I have all the SP stones you mention - #120, #700 3F Carbon, 1K hard, 6K hard, 10K hard, plus the 8K hard and a Select II #240. They are my primary stones and the reason why I sold my Shaptons (I do have 3 additional stones from other brands that were recommended by Stu).

Like he said, the Select II is better suited for the newer steels - HSS, CPM 3V, etc - and I agree.

I use my #120 and #240 to reestablish a bevel when I don't need to use the grinder. I have read that the DMT will work fine as well. It depends if you prefer waterstones or diamonds. They both work and work well.

Mud = slurry that builds on the stone while you sharpen. More commong with softer stones. Shaptons (Pro & GS) & SP hard do not create mud like a Suehiro Rika, SP Select II, Naniwa Super Stone, etc.

With SP stones you do not need to keep them sitting in a pond like some others. A 4" deep plastic bin that is wide and long enough that you can pick up at a Target or dollar store is sufficient. All you need to do is soak them for a few minutes -5 for the ones under 1K and 1 minute for the 1K. Then just spray water on them as you hone to remove the swarf. I use a plastic pump sprayer you find in the pesticide department at your local BORG. You do not need to soak the stones from the 6K up.

The stone holders are very good if you have not designed your own stone holder like many have on SMC. They also are very good.

HTH

[Mike Holbrook]

I started responding to this thread thinking I was going to buy at least Xcoarse & Coarse metal DMT's. I am actually a hands on stone sharpening kind of guy though and when I read the info Orlando and David offered on the SP 120 I quickly started changing my mind, then I found more info on the SP 700 and became a convert.

I realize I am heavily weighted towards the coarse process sharpening wise. I have been watching Schwarz's DVD "Coarse, Medium, Fine" in which he explains why he thinks many people find hand tools to be slower than machines. He believes it is because many do not follow a coarse, medium, fine regimen in their work. He stresses remaining at the coarse stage as long as possible to speed up work. I think he makes a good point. We tend to get very excited about the top end very expensive fine stones. I know I have wasted countless hours trying to grind/shape/sharpen with too fine a sharpening device. I personally made a decision to get to a point where sharpening is not some major undertaking that I constantly try to avoid. I think the faster, coarser alternatives for sharpening will get me there. In the end, I think whether or not I stop to sharpen more and get it done faster is going to have a larger long term effect on my work than whether I can split hairs with my chisel blade.

[David Weaver]

What's the difference between the sigma power stone and a new crystolon stone (that hasn't seen oil, so you could use water with it)? I gather that it's a 120 grit silicon carbide stone, is the binder more friable than a "carborundum" stone?

I just don't like stones that coarse, but I have a crystalon stone, and I've used it from time to time. It does what it's supposed to do, I guess, but I'd rather use a grinder or diamonds, either is faster and there is no issue with flattening.

I did go against my own advice and order a 400 chosera yesterday. Between that and the Beston 500 (another silicon carbide stone), I couldn't really decide, but I need a better stone a little coarser than 1000 for japanese planes sharpened with the traditional method, and I'm getting tired of electroplate diamond hones starting out coarse enough and then becoming no faster than a shapton 1000, which is murder on all of the japanese irons I've tried, but it's still a 1000 stone and grinding out a small nick is slow.

The knife guys always seem to be a little ahead of us on what's good, and they have a high opinion of the 400 chosera and its feel (i don't mind soaking a coarse stone for as seldom as it's used). The Beston 500 was similar in opinion, but at that grit size, there is not a lot of difference bewteen the chosera and the Beston.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that stu doesn't like shaptons because he's sharpening a wide flat bevel, because I just went to mine again yesterday with several irons, including an HSS that got a microbevel, I'm not having any issues getting a good edge. I would probably be searching for more HSS appropriate stones if I did the entire bevel, but i guarantee i will never hand sharpen the full bevel of anything HSS as long as there is electricity, and the stones will only ever see the smoother irons. The rest of them get a zip on a sanding belt and a strop until hair comes off without feeling it pull at all. I cannot dump the convenience of no-soak, because i never plan ahead for sharpening.

After gnashing my fingers on a diamond hone yesterday for an hour going through several irons with nicks in them, I can't tolerate them any more, either, unless they are literally brand new and haven't lost their "smarts". They are great for microbevels on HSS, but once they lose their smarts, the don't cut a wide bevel very well, either.

[Orlando Gonzalez]

What's the difference between the sigma power stone and a new crystolon stone (that hasn't seen oil, so you could use water with it)? I gather that it's a 120 grit silicon carbide stone, is the binder more friable than a "carborundum" stone?

I did go against my own advice and order a 400 chosera yesterday.......I need a better stone a little coarser than 1000 for japanese planes.....The knife guys always seem to be a little ahead of us on what's good, and they have a high opinion of the 400 chosera and its feel (I don't mind soaking a coarse stone for as seldom as it's used).

Dave,

I have the Chosera #400 w/the included nagura. It worlks well. I use it after the #240 and before the SP #700 3F carbon and/or the SP 1K. As you probably already know, it needs to be soaked for about 5+ minutes or until the bubbles are gone. I keep nice and wet and rub on the nagura as necessary.

I'm going to give that crystolon stone a shot today. I'll swing by my local hardware store and pick it up cheap. Thanks for the heads up.

[David Weaver]

Orlando, yes. I have a bester 1200, i figured i might as well soak both of them if i'm going to have to soak one.

The only thing I plan to use it on is japanese irons, so I won't have to soak much. I like their feel on a shapton 1000, so maybe no bester, and the 1000 should be a good step up from the chosera, which according to reputation leaves fairly fine scratches for how fast it cuts. Is that your experience?

I just don't know that I want to go down further than that with stones, I've never been too fond of 100 and 200 grit stones. IF I have to go to that level for some reason, i'll just use the kanaban, but that's drastic and it'll mung up the edge on a nice japanese iron (same reason I'll not put it on my carborundum stone, I'd rather go to the tormek). Something that cuts twice as fast as a shapton 1k would be fine.

I like diamonds for microbevel and hollow ground work where absolute cutting speed isn't much of an issue, but to tolerate their feel on a wide flat bevel, they'd have to stay like they are new better than they do at this point. I just like stones better for that kind of work, but it's been tricky finding one that cuts fast, has a good feel, stays fairly flat and doesn't scar up the edge on a high $$ plane.

[Mike Holbrook]

Stuart did not try to talk me out of Shapton & into Sigmas SPs. He actually said the two perform about the same. Still he thought the Sigma Power stones had some advantages: Sigma SPs are about 20% finer grit (may provide bigger jumps), Sigma SPs may clog a little less in lower grits, Sigma SPs are 25mm thick and the Shaptons 15mm ( the Shaptons abrade a little slower but not nearly enough to make up for the 10mm difference), the Sigmas are a little cheaper, Sigmas are tougher & more durable. The Shaptons have the advantage of not requiring the short soaking time (grits 120> 2000). The soaking is a non issue for me. The thickness and fragility of the stones is a big deal to me.

I actually bought the Sigma Select II's in the higher grits (6,000, 10,000) and the Sigma 3F Carbon #700 (which is a SP that performs like a Select II, but is twice as thick, also designed for HSS). The Sigma 700 will serve as a faster more aggressive version of the Select II 1,000, and fit better with my Shapton 2,000. I like the idea of having a base stone that is twice as thick and cuts even faster as I expect it to get a higher percent of my work. My sharpening will take place in a small "kitchen" area, next to my shop, that I also feed big dogs from. Water, soaking, storage space are non issues, toughness & speed are issues.