plane blade replacement

[phil harold]

I have older Stanley planes, No. 3 4 5 6 & 8
how much improvement will I gain from upgrade the blades
Is it worth it?
and who makes these replacements
is one company better than another?

[Prashun Patel]

I believe replacing the blade is the single best thing one can do on a plane.

I purchased a #7 Hock Blade from Craftsman Studio (they have a 17% discount + free shipping). These are well regarded blades and slightly thicker than the stock Stanleys. My #7 now cuts as well as my brand new Veritas planes.

But from all my reading, it appears that replacing the blade with ANY new blade will likely result in some performance improvement on an old plane. I've read an account (I think Jim Koepke?) where he even got good results from a blade from HD. But that guy's the Dumbledore of planes. But for me, for not much more $$, I'd go with a reputable replacement from:

Pinacle, Lie-Nielsen, Lee Valley, or Hock.

You might be tempted to replace the chip breakers too, but Ron Hock told me that the standard breaker WILL work with the slightly thicker blades. He was right at least about the #7

[Jon Toebbe]

I've had great luck with the Lee Valley replacement irons. Good, thick steel, and the face has been machine lapped -- it looks me no more than five minutes to setup the iron for its first shavings. It was hard right up to the tip, so I didn't have to grind it back any, either. I'm sure all the premium replacements are at a similar level. I didn't bother with a new chip-breaker. I don't set mine particularly close to the cutting edge to begin with, and they're so easy to clean up on the stones that getting a nice, tight connection to the iron is easy.

I tuned up an old Stanley #6 for fore plane duties (cambered iron, wide mouth) and found that the original iron chattered on heavy cuts. The appearance didn't matter much -- I was hogging off wood, but a chattering iron is noticeably harder to push than one that cuts smoothly. I'll echo Prashun's sentiment: replacing the iron is easily the best bang-to-buck-ratio improvement you can make to a vintage plane.

[Shawn Pixley]

I have an old craftsman plane that was my grandfathers. I tuned to work acceptably (e.g. Really sharp iron) but it was a thin blade. I replaced with a Hock iron and found a lot of improvement. It will never be like my LN 4-1/2, but it works as a loaner / scrub.

[Andrew Gibson]

I have both Hock and LV irons. I personally like the LV Irons the best, not sure why because the hock is a great iron. The replacement chipbreakers form hock and LV are also great and I feel improve the performance even more. I also prefer the A2 steel.

my collection of bench planes includes... #3, #4, #4-1/2, #5, #6, and #7 I have replacement blades in the #3, #4, and #4-1/2. replacements for the others will come when funding presents itself.

[Jon van der Linden]

On 2/8/2011 Joel at Tools for Working Wood posted a funny story on his blog about trying to use a thicker iron in an old Stanley. It's worth a read. Sometimes thicker irons won't work well... if they're too thick for the plane in question. Heavier/better chipbreakers also help.

As to "how much" improvement you will experience, that really depends on the blades that you have and their condition. The replacement blades available from reputable vendors will be better all around. With as many planes as you have I'd just replace the one you use most and see how much you like it.

You can read Joel's post here: http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=1de9b23e0724ffb4042daf3931 697e4b&Screen=NEXT&StoreCode=toolstore&nextpage=/extra/blogpage.html&BlogID=280

[phil harold]

On 2/8/2011 Joel at Tools for Working Wood posted a funny story on his blog about trying to use a thicker iron in an old Stanley. It's worth a read. http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=1de9b23e0724ffb4042daf3931 697e4b&Screen=NEXT&StoreCode=toolstore&nextpage=/extra/blogpage.html&BlogID=280
LOL
thanks for the advice I will consider buying one and see how it goes

[Jim Koepke]

LOL
thanks for the advice I will consider buying one and see how it goes

Buying one may be a good way to see if you like the experience.

I have bought a few Hock blades and find them to be very good.

From what others who have used multiple makers blades have said, they may take a bit more time to flatten the back. I like Ron Hock and Fort Bragg (the town where he has his business) was high on our list for retirement locations.

The Hock blades work fine with Stanley chip breakers. There isn't any reason other blades shouldn't work fine with a properly tuned Stanley chip breaker.

In my experience if one has a good original blade, they will be able to do great work with their planes.

The benefits of the replacement blades on the market are many.

A thicker blade will have less tendency to vibrate in the work. This is the chatter abatement many mention. There are many things that can be done to minimize this phenomenon. Sometimes planes are just going to make a noise that isn't as pleasing to our ears as the swish, ssssiiiizzz, or wooooosh so many or us find soothing as we push a plane on wood.

There is then the argument as to whether air hardened or oil hardened blades are better.

There is a feeling that O1 or HCS blades can be brought to a sharper edge than the A1 & A2 blades. We also have debates on pins or tails first and how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

The advantage is the A steels do not wear as quickly. Their disadvantage is that they tend to micro fracture at the edge as they wear due to a larger crystal structure of the steel. Since the Air hardened steels are harder than the Oil hardened steels, they are also a bit more work to hone.

I only have two of the Air hardened blades. So my knowledge is limited.

My own planes are often used with Stanley blades. If the original blade is not damaged from pitting or some of the other problems that befall old blades, they can be made to work very well. The may need a trip to the stones a bit more often.

Before buying a replacement iron, you can do a lot to make sure the plane is tuned up as well as is possible with the blade and chip breaker you have. If the chip breaker is not mating properly with the blade it can be a big problem. If the frog is set forward when one is trying to make thick shavings, there may be chatter. Having the frog too far back can cause chatter if the blade can not seat properly on the frog. Chatter can also be caused by having the chip breaker set back from the edge of the blade too far. Even the grind angle can contribute to chatter. Without getting into micro bevels, the standard bevel angle on a bench plane is 25°. If this is used and you still have chatter, increase it to 30°. At 35° other problems can start to occur.


I've read an account (I think Jim Koepke?) where he even got good results from a blade from HD. But that guy's the Dumbledore of planes. But for me, for not much more $$, I'd go with a reputable replacement from:

Thanks Prashun,

That comment has me smiling and chuckling.

There is no magic in the name on the blade. The magic is in the metal and possibly the effects of mass due to its thickness. The hardness and consistency of the maker's quality is another item to consider.

jtk

[Johnny Kleso]

New irons are a joy to sharpen if your are old and pitted..
If you buying sevveral at once I would wait till the store has a 20% off sale or something like that...

If you get the new thicker blade you do not have to buy a new cap iron (chipbreaker) as well..
Also you can buy a new iron set from Stanley for about $17 if your not ready for the large out lay of cash :)

http://www.stanleytoolparts.com/beplcu.html

[David Weaver]

Lee valley's irons are the fastest to prepare - you can polish the entire back on a polishing stone right out of the box and hone the bevel - no flattening of anything, and no prior flattening that may not be flat to your reference. I understand from the spat last year that was on here that they are not cryogenically treated. I use one HARD for thicknessing stock and I can't really tell the difference between it and a cryo treated a2 iron.

Hocks are maybe a little cheaper.

LNs and IBCs are more expensive than both (for some prep-minor reasons in the IBC), but I suspect most of the reason is markup, though they are both good quality irons.

Don't overthink it - all of them are better than stock irons. I have all of them, I can't tell the difference between them in how big of a board I can thickness or how much edge jointing I can do before I have to sharpen.

[Garrett Ellis]

do any of these replacement blades require filing to open the mouth? or do they all fit as is?

[David Weaver]

the only way to be absolutely certain that you won't have to do anything at all is to get a thin replacement iron.

The irons that are 3/32nds to 0.1" or so generally don't require filing. If they do, it's not a lot, and IME it's been most likely on older stanley types (T7-t9s, etc. Maybe that's the case up to the sweethearts, but I've never had to finagle anything T11 or later).

The IBC irons and if you choose to get a stock 1/8th LN/LV iron may require filing, may not - but much more likely, but the thicker the iron, the more backlash you'll have unless you fool around with the chipbreaker and put tabs on it.

It seems to me, and this is only my opinion, that for actually working wood, including anything domestic hardwood, that the mid thickness irons are the best choice for a vintage plane. They make a very marked improvement in feel and edge holding, but usually without extra work. There is not a lot more improvement in feel, and no improvement in edge holding for a thicker iron.

That is just my opinion (i have and have used everything i listed above). I do like thick irons, just not so much in old bench planes. An extra thick iron in an old bench plane is like putting a chrome tip on a pinto.

I am still waiting for a stock maker to make a fairly inexpensive high speed steel stanley replacement iron. It would be the *stuff* for jack and fore plane work, and for most smoothing it would work fine.

[Jim R Edwards]

I have Hock and Clifton replacement blades. My hock blades work very well and do not require the mouth to be opened. My Cliftons are thicker (1/8th) than Hock irons and work well on my Record planes but not on my Stanley's. Lee Valley offers blade and chipbreakers for a very reasonable price and if I primarily used bevel down planes the LV would be the ones I would buy.

[Charlie Buchanan]

I use older Stanley Baileys (type 5, 9, 10 and later) and Bedrocks. I have replaced a few irons with Hock irons and chipbreakers--but only when the original irons were pitted or too short to work. I see some improvement over the thinner originals in planing hard woods. The improvement over a good condition sharp original is small, but definitely there.
For me it's not enough to replace a good original iron. I think the chipbreakers are more worth replacing. Hock chipbreakers can make a difference in the performance of even a good original iron. I've been very pleased with the Hock irons--quick to flatten and hone out of the box.

I've never found that i had to file a plane to accept a Hock iron. You just have to adjust the frog a bit and make sure all the mating surfaces between frog and base are clean and true. Filing a mouth can be a big mistake.

[Johnny Kleso]

I say you should file the mouth for fit would be best on a Bailey tupe plane and at the very least file the Japanning off the mouth..

I have a artical on my Tune Up page

[Roy Lindberry]

While I haven't tried one yet, Rob Cosman has sold me on the IBC blade/chipbreaker combo. Now I just need to save up some money.

[Richard Dooling]

+1 on the Lee Valley irons. The ones I've purchased have been very flat and have required very little setup. Having said that I think my next blade may be a Ray Iles from TFWW. He handles the flattening issue by making sure the bevel is ground on the side of the blade that is a little convex. With the back being slightly concave there is very little material that needs flattening. Pricing is in line with other quality replacement blades and less than some well known suppliers.

Any of these blades are good replacements but personally I hate spending a lot of time flattening a blade back.

[Joel Goodman]

I think my next blade may be a Ray Iles from TFWW. He handles the flattening issue by making sure the bevel is ground on the side of the blade that is a little convex. With the back being slightly concave there is very little material that needs flattening. Pricing is in line with other quality replacement blades and less than some well known suppliers.


I have a Ray Isles carbon steel from TWW in my #7 and it is as advertised. It is one of my favorites. Be warned however, that's it almost 1/8th inch thick and I had to open up the mouth of the type 15 that it's in. The only downside for me of the thick iron is that, and that there is more backlash than usual. But as I adjust while advancing the iron I can live with it. So if you don't have a file with a safe edge have TWW include an auger file with your order!

[Jim Koepke]

I will have to look later today to see which of my planes have Hock irons. My memory tells me that only one needed the mouth opened. On my type 7 #7 it is pretty tight and can not take a real heavy shaving with the Hock iron. My #8 is a type 6a and can use the Hock iron as is and can take a heavy shaving.

If my memory is working the plane that needed a bit of mouth opening may have been a plane that was later sold.

Also, just my opinion, but most likely you will find any of the quality makers of blades will supply a product with which you will be satisfied. The real difference may only be in how long it takes to get ready to make shavings.

jtk

[Roy Lindberry]

I will have to look later today to see which of my planes have Hock irons. My memory tells me that only one needed the mouth opened. On my type 7 #7 it is pretty tight and can not take a real heavy shaving with the Hock iron. My #8 is a type 6a and can use the Hock iron as is and can take a heavy shaving.

If my memory is working the plane that needed a bit of mouth opening may have been a plane that was later sold.

Also, just my opinion, but most likely you will find any of the quality makers of blades will supply a product with which you will be satisfied. The real difference may only be in how long it takes to get ready to make shavings.

jtk

I put a Hock in my #6 Bailey and didn't need to widen the mouth.

[Rob Lee]

.... Ray Iles from TFWW. He handles the flattening issue by making sure the bevel is ground on the side of the blade that is a little convex. With the back being slightly concave there is very little material that needs flattening. Pricing is in line with other quality replacement blades and less than some well known suppliers.


....


Hi Richard -

Just a quick note - I don't think that this practice is unique... I know that this has long been part of our manufacturing process...

I would expect that all quality blade manufacturers do the same. Ray Iles makes good blades.

Cheers -

Rob

[Richard Dooling]

Hi Rob,

I would hope that kind of attention to detail would be the norm but I've had a couple of blades that took over an hour to flatten. At the time I was newer at this than I am now and I just figured them's the breaks.

Anyhow one A2 blade had a convex back and was a real bear to get right. Understand that I don't obsess over levels of sharpness or how many angels can dance on the edge of an iron, I just want the tool to make shavings . . . that you can read a newspaper through.:rolleyes:

I'm sure that I could have returned the blades, but again, at the time I didn't know any better. I'm certainly no expert and I know things sometimes do slip through the QA process so I have not ruled out any of the major players in this area, but I do inspect my purchases with more knowledge now.

.

[Niels Cosman]

I have hock blades in 3,4,5,6,8 bedrocks and a no.40 scrub. They are fantastic and required no modification of the mouths and generally need very little prep to sharpen. The no.5 probably gets the most intense use and it gets a TON of mileage before it needs to be resharpened. I am a happy happy camper.

ps. i think the 3,4, and 40 are carbon steel the rest are a2. I honestly haven't noticed a different in durability or sharpness. However, the planes are used and set up for drastically different tasks.

[George Beck]

Wow! Another Wabbit season-Duck season thread. Anyway, Phil, my 2 cents is you can't go wrong with a Hock blade. I have used them and others for years. They are hard and take a keen edge that lasts. In addition, Ron has been doing this a long time and for some pretty demanding customers like the kids at the College of the Redwoods (Krenov's school).

George

[David Weaver]

Yeah, and the hock blades are relatively cheap.

Generally when the dust settles, I shop on price w.r.t. all of the premium irons. There is no appreciable difference in durability among all of the A2 irons. So far, from what I can tell there is more intra-brand variation in durability than there is inter-brand variation.

[David Weaver]

If muji ever reads this forum and gets the itch to put the keyhole the other way around on their 50mm blades...

Then I'll know for sure which iron to recommend to anyone who wants something cheap that holds an edge a really long time.

Judging by the price of their other replacement irons, it would be about $15. I would say the HSS iron in my continental smoother lasts about 2-3 times as long as A2, tending toward the latter. In cocobolo or abrasive woods, it is at least that or more. I can clean up and square up the pieces for a cocobolo or rosewood plane in one sharpening with it.

it took me until about an hour ago to find someone carrying the continental smoother since woodline doesn't seem to have them any longer.

If anyone from lee valley is looking, pick up the biggest of the five or six different continental smoothers from muji to go with the other ones you have!

I'd tell everyone where I got the second one just now, but it was the last one in stock :)

It is one of the few cheap planes that just gives me the warm fuzzies, probably because it's not really cheaply made - rosewood or ebony body (the one I have is ebony) and an HSS iron for $50. Push or pull, it works either way.

[Rob Lee]

David -

There you go again pointing out the emperor has no clothes... ! :)

Mr Ho (Muji...) makes good planes - probably 'cause he's a woodworker. It a very low-tech operation, so each plane is fettled as it's made.

Cheers -

Rob

[David Weaver]

Rob - maybe someone who has a tool manufacturing business, mail order and retail shops - who has a little sway, could send Mr. Ho a stanley pattern bench plane iron and offer him a few extra bucks above and beyond the current going rate for each iron, and then tack on a few extra bucks for their operation and retail them....

... hint hint... :)

I have screwed around a little bit making a few planes. I couldn't find the wood (in dry condition) for the continental smoother for the price they sell the entire finished plane for. And the iron is just something else altogether. Pity the folks who don't have a power grinder the first time they need to regrind it.

[Rob Lee]

Rob - maybe someone who has a tool manufacturing business, mail order and retail shops - who has a little sway, could send Mr. Ho a stanley pattern bench plane iron and offer him a few extra bucks above and beyond the current going rate for each iron, and then tack on a few extra bucks for their operation and retail them....

... hint hint... :)

I have screwed around a little bit making a few planes. I couldn't find the wood (in dry condition) for the continental smoother for the price they sell the entire finished plane for. And the iron is just something else altogether. Pity the folks who don't have a power grinder the first time they need to regrind it.

David -

We'll be going a step better than that... coming soon to a website/catalog near you....and made here, from a made in USA alloy...

BTW - you notice the new Bester/Imanishi/Sigma Power stones we put on the site today??? Not sayin' there's any correlation... but they're great for HSS', and some nifty PM steels.... :)

We do currently stock M2 for the bevel-up's .... just haven't really told anyone about 'em, until we had sharpening support for 'em. M2 is not the pinnacle of our line though .... ;)

Cheers -

Rob

[David Weaver]

I had not noticed the stones, but I don't do much of a job perusing sites until right the second I want something.

Hopefully, there's going to be BD irons in CPM3V or M4 - for about $5 each, and with the backs run on that nifty horizontal lapping machine. If it's made in the USA, can't be too many different places a specialty alloy is coming from. Hopefully crucible or latrobe steel (just looking out for my local interests!).

[Joel Goodman]

Hi Richard -

Just a quick note - I don't think that this practice is unique... I know that this has long been part of our manufacturing process...

I would expect that all quality blade manufacturers do the same. Ray Iles makes good blades.

Cheers -

Rob

Rob Lee is so classy he'll tell you the other guys blades are good too! Gotta love that.

[Ron Kellison]

I can't discount the value of the new LV chipbreakers. I bought one last week and put in on a well-fettled Stanley 5 1/2. It's like using a different plane! I realize this is backward to the usual process but I think I'll also upgrade to a replacement LV blade and see if I get an equal amount of improvement. If so, I'll be replacing blades and cap irons on my Record # 7 and old Stanley # 4 as well!

Regards,

Ron