A Request for Help Regarding Cabinet Doors

[Glen Blanchard]

I am about to make some paint grade upper and base cabinets for a room that my wife is turning into a craft room. I plan on using 1/2" plywood for the flat panels (not raised) for the cabinet doors surrounded by 2 1/2" stiles and rails. My questions involve the stiles and rails.



Since I won't be raising the panels, the groove in both the stiles and rails needs to be 1/2". How thick should the rails and stiles be? Is 1" too thick? If they are only 3/4", and if I center the groove, that would leave only 1/8" on either side of the panel, which seems to be too little.
I won't be using a stile/rail router bit, but merely cutting a groove. I prefer to do this on the table saw with a dado blade, and I don't have a concern about doing so with the rails since their ends will be hidden. However, if I groove the entire length of the stiles, the groove will be visible at each end, so the groove will need to be stopped. Am I therefore forced to use a router table rather than a dado blade?

Thanks for the help/suggestions.

[Shane Black]

You could cut the plywood thinner on the back side with a dado blade. (just the part the goes into the groove) This way you get the same look without compromising much strength.

[Glen Blanchard]

You could cut the plywood thinner on the back side with a dado blade. (just the part the goes into the groove) This way you get the same look without compromising much strength.


Yep, That would solve the problem. Now how thick should I mill the stiles and rails? 3/4"?

[David Thompson 27577]

Since I won't be raising the panels, the groove in both the stiles and rails needs to be 1/2".


Not true, at least not absolutely true.

If you use a back-cut, then the grooves in the stiles and rails can be whatever you want it to be. And you need to think about the strength of the wood that's left to hold the front and back of that panel. If the stiles are 3/4", and you use a groove that's 1/2", then the panel will be held in place by 1/8" (or less) strips. Not a good idea.

For design purposes, you need to think first about stile/rail thickness, and later about how to relieve the edges of the panel to fit into a 1/4" groove. Let the back of the panel and stile/rails look like whatever they must -- remember that the doors will be closed most of the time.

[Shane Black]

I would use 3\4" thick stiles and rails and backcut the panel to just under 1\4". Then cut a 1\4" slot in the stiles and rails. If cut right the back of the panel should still look good.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I agree with Shane. Rabbet the panel edges 1/4" on the back side.....then I would use a 1/4" spiral straight cutting bit on a router table. Mark start and stop points on the fence and route the grooves for panel.

[Glen Blanchard]

I had not even thought about rabbeting the backside of the panel. DUH! Thanks guys.

[Bill Huber]

I would use 3/4" r/s and 1/4 ply for the panel. I think 1/4" would make for a nicer door and be lighter to boot.

My kitchen cabinets all have 1/4" panels and they are fine. I see no reason to use 1/2" for a non raised panel.

Now for a side question, why do they call a raised panel a raised panel, you are not raising anything, you are lowering the sides.

[Glen Blanchard]

My reasoning for using 1/2" for the panels is to prevent them from sounding like a drum. Comments?

[David Thompson 27577]

My reasoning for using 1/2" for the panels is to prevent them from sounding like a drum. Comments?

The question of 1/4" versus thicker panels is a matter of personal choice. I agree that the thinner panels can sometimes sound like a base drum. And I agree that the thicker panels (assuming flat panels) can be heavier, which might not be a good thing.

But sometimes I want the door to have a feeling of 'substantial-ness', (sorry for the term) because that can sometimes add a feel of richness. And sometimes I want the door to be light and almost airy.

Neither is wrong, and neither is absolutely right.

[Buck Williams]

Glenn,

I'm not sure what kind of joinery you're planning for the rails and stiles, but if you were to cut a stub tenon on the rails, the tenon will fill the full length groove on the stiles and you could do the whole operation on the table saw without having to deal with a stopped groove on the router table. Doing it this way, you'd end up with a profile very much like what you would get using a rail and stile router bit.

[Joe Scharle]

My approach would be to use 1/2" mdf for the panels since it's going to be painted. Either undercut or tongue cut to fit into a 1/4" groove and using a haunched tenon on the rails to fill the stile groove. Good luck with whatever technique you apply.

[George Bregar]

I don't think there is an issue with the design as planned...center the groove, 1/8" would be fine. Exactly what I did. I mean what are your concerns?

There is no reason to to stop the groove in stub tenon and groove joinery. It complicates the construction, provides a smaller gluing surface, and why hide a well crafted joint? If these doors are really large (or on the ones that are) however you may want to consider mortise and tenon for strength and to prevent racking of the joint, or cutting the grooves a little deeper and the stub tenons a little longer to have more gluing surface.

[Chris Kennedy]

I've never used them, but you can get rubber inserts that will prevent the panel from rattling, which should cut down the drum aspect. I think Rockler has them.

Chris

[Bob Wingard]

The size of the doors should also be considered ... if the doors are very large, 1/2" panels could put a lot of stress on the joinery. How are you planning to join the railes & stiles ??? Stub tenons, in this case would most likely prove inadequate.

Consider rabbeting the back edges slightly .. go with 7/8" R&S .. use very secure joinery and good quality hinges.

[Ole Anderson]

I was wondering if you could just glue the ply in the grooves of the rails and styles to avoid racking as mentioned. Then I noticed this thread which is running now and three responders feel gluing a ply panel is ok.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?159445-Plywood-Door-Panels-Can-they-fit-rather-tightly

[scott vroom]

Rabbet a 1/4" tongue on the panel to fit 1/4" FF groove. Make the FF groove 1/8" deeper and use spaceballs to manage wood frame movement. Personally I'd use MDF vs plywood for paint grade; MDF mills easier and will paint nicer than plywood IMO.

[John TenEyck]

I just made 21 kitchen cabinet doors like this. 3/4" thick 2-1/4" wide stiles and 2-1/2" wide rails with 1/2" thick veneered MDF recessed flat panels. As others recommended, I cut a 1/4" rebatt on the back of the MDF panels, leaving about a 3/32" reveal all the way around from the frames. The frames are made with 1/4" wide grooves, centered on the stiles/rails, 1/2" deep using a dado blade on the table saw, as you wanted to do. This is much faster than on a router table. If you make a zero clearance insert for your table saw, there will be practically no tear out and a feather board keeps the parts tight to the fence so the grooves stay centered. I then cut mating stub tenons on the rails. I used my radial arm saw, but you could use your table saw if you prefer. I was careful to make sure the tenons fit tightly to the bottoms of the grooves in the stiles, since the ends of the lower cabinet doors will be visible when opened. I used space balls to keep the panels centered in the frames, and shot a single 5/8" brad at the center of the the rail into the panel both top and bottom to keep it centered for the long haul. 23 gage pin nails really don't show and there on the inside anyway. I think the joinery for all 21 doors took about 2 hours. The doors glued up nice and true and the joints look clean and tight when you look at the ends.

[ken gibbs]

I use 3/4" thick rail and styles that yield a 1/4th " groove. Just clamp the plywood down to your benchtop and route down the peremeter to a slim 1/4". I get the best results by routing (thinning) the plywood edge face down on the bench to a width that is slightly less than the groove depth. Since you are using plywood you can go ahead and glue the panels into the rail grooves. Add 3/8" + 3/8" to the length and widths of your panels to allow for the grooves. Use a carpenter's square to make sure your doors are square when you glue them up. Good luck.

As an aside, you can use these same rail and style bits to make glass doors by taking the finished rails and styles to the glass shop and then use dowels to pin and glue up the doors.