Table Top Split

[Bruce Melton]

I built a custom hard maple table for a customer almost two years ago. This Jaunuary it decided to split. :mad: I know wood moves but after 18 months why now?:confused: The next question is how best to repair it? Will glue and clamps do the trick? Would pocket screws from the bottom work with glue? Do I cut in keys and refinish? Need some advice from the more experienced.

[glenn bradley]

A little more info, diagram or a pic would help. If the split is a result of restricted movement, simply repairing the split will only delay the inevitable. If the environment were rudely changed on the piece (an un-tended spill, rampant dehumidifier left on all weekend or some other oddity) that would be a different story.

[Van Huskey]

I am gonna ask a stupid question so don't be offended. You did finish the bottom the of the table too didn't you.

[Bruce Melton]

Yes I did finish the bottom of the table. It is 10 below here in NW Indiana and the humidity is next to nothing. The house is new (the table was built for the open house) so I assume the humidifier in the furnace is OK. I have not yet seen the split myself so haven't got pictures.

[Bruce Melton]

I haven't seen the split yet so do not have pictures. It was 10 below here this morning and the humidity is next to nothing. A new house so assume the humidifier is working. I'll get pictures as soon as I can.

[George Bregar]

Wood splits in panel glue ups like table tops happen not because one side is finished and not the other (thats more a twist or warp situation) but because the ends of the wood lose and regain moisture greater than the middle. The board likley had a very small check or split already...a few wet/dry cycles and you have it open. Hard to say what to do to repair it without seeing it. You can reglue and clamp, use an epoxy or even super glue to fill, or rip the board at the split and reglue it. I made a coffee table out of QSWO that developed a split...it closed up and is invisible before I got around to repair. A client may not appreciate this procratin...I mean patience. ;)

[Frank Drew]

Bruce,

Once you see the piece, it would be interesting to know if a glue joint opened up or if the wood split/cracked away from a joint. Another consideration, how did you fasten the top to the table base (that can suggest an alternative explanation for the problem from the one George mentioned.)?

[George Bregar]

Bruce,

Once you see the piece, it would be interesting to know if a glue joint opened up or if the wood split/cracked away from a joint. Another consideration, how did you fasten the top to the table base (that can suggest an alternative explanation for the problem from the one George mentioned.)? I assumed anyone with a "client" can glue up a table top and account for movement in attaching it to the base.

[Steve H Graham]

If I paid a pile to have a table made, and it opened up after two years, I'd be looking for a refund, not a patch.

[George Bregar]

When gluing panels I try to use the middle of longer boards if at all possible. Of course this becomes more difficult on longer tops. Splits happen at end of boards during the drying process for the same reason they occur in glue ups...boards lose moisture more rapidly at their ends than faces. You can take the precaution of cutting off the end to eliminate the split, but sometimes the remaining board is under stress and a split happens. Checks can open over time when they become the new "end" after cross cutting, but in my mind they are easier to spot.

[Stephen Cherry]

One thing I have been doing is cutting off quarter inch strips from the ends of boards and trying to break them. Invariably the strips from the very end will break easily if any sort of crack is there. The surprising thing is how far these weak areas can reach into the board, even though the board looks fine. Eventually the quarter inch strips will be sound, and it's safe to assume that the board will stay together.

[Chris Fournier]

If I paid a pile to have a table made, and it opened up after two years, I'd be looking for a refund, not a patch.

If you paid a pile of money for a Corvette Z06 and took it off roading and tore the undercarriage out would you look for a refund too?

A furniture builder needs to build for the environment that the piece is going to inhabit. If the furniture builder did so but the client didn't maintain their humidifer in a serious cold snap and a piece of furniture delaminated due to the buyers neglect then I guess that the buyer just learned an expensive lesson about humidification. The chapped lips and nose bleeds should have been a bit of a warning that something might be wrong.

I had a customer travel with one of my guitars in the winter time. He left it in his car and then carried it into a warm building and opened up the case right away destroying the finish. Not my fault and no I didn't offer to fix it just because I built it. And yes I do have a product card that I send out with the guitar that covers care and use.

I highly doubt that the OP is to blame for this problem so why should he assume any responsibility for someone elses mistake?

[phil harold]

I

A furniture builder needs to build for the environment that the piece is going to inhabit. If the furniture builder did so but the client didn't maintain their humidifer in a serious cold snap and a piece of furniture delaminated due to the buyers neglect then I guess that the buyer just learned an expensive lesson about humidification.

Our enviorment is Earth
40 years air conditioning and humidification were not common in the United States
Quality furniture was bulilt before then and has passed the test of time
Why should we build furniture to only survive in a controlled climate condition?
If there is a power interuption for a week or two all our craft will be destroyed?

[George Bregar]

Our enviorment is Earth
40 years air conditioning and humidification were not common in the United States
Quality furniture was bulilt before then and has passed the test of time
Why should we build furniture to only survive in a controlled climate condition?
If there is a power interuption for a week or two all our craft will be destroyed? +1. Design for the environment? :confused: Frankly, using sound stock selection and proper joinery furniture should be just fine through normal swings. I have furniture that goes from warm and humid to cold and very dry in my place in northern WI. We don't use air conditioning and the only dehumidifier is in the basement. In the winter we generally do not add moisture as our stays are usually weekends and we will have a fire going which makes it impossible.

We work with wood. It sometimes splits regardless of our efforts.

[Chris Fournier]

Of course our environment is Earth and this Earth is a greatly varied place. Would you dress for Death Valley the same as you would for Anchorage? Would you build furniture in the same manner for both environments?

We need to build for the conditions that a piece is going to reside in so that it survives the rigours of those conditions. Survival is the point.

As far as the older pieces of furniture are concerned, a bit of sudy will show you that build techniques were used to ensure survival in the conditions prevelant at the times that they were built - usually huge swings in temperature and relative humidity; RH being the most important consideration for wooden objects. We rarely use the lowly yet flexible nail in our furniture these days, it was common (pun intended) some time ago in the finest and highest expression of our craft.

Go to a museum with old furniture in the dead of winter and then return at the peak of summer and you will notice that the temp and humidity are the same at both times. This is done to preserve these old valuable pieces.

[Pete Bradley]

You'll have to see it of course. One thing to check is that the owner hasn't done any home-brew repairs involving nails or glue under the top. Most people don't understand wood movement, and I've seen several repairs where I'm sure the owner said "that'll hold it" after gluing and nailing a crossgrain joint together.

Pete

[George Bregar]

Of course our environment is Earth and this Earth is a greatly varied place. Would you dress for Death Valley the same as you would for Anchorage? Would you build furniture in the same manner for both environments?

We need to build for the conditions that a piece is going to reside in so that it survives the rigours of those conditions. Survival is the point.

As far as the older pieces of furniture are concerned, a bit of sudy will show you that build techniques were used to ensure survival in the conditions prevelant at the times that they were built - usually huge swings in temperature and relative humidity; RH being the most important consideration for wooden objects. We rarely use the lowly yet flexible nail in our furniture these days, it was common (pun intended) some time ago in the finest and highest expression of our craft.

Go to a museum with old furniture in the dead of winter and then return at the peak of summer and you will notice that the temp and humidity are the same at both times. This is done to preserve these old valuable pieces. What would you change for the the two locations? :confused:

[phil harold]

How did those items survive before they got into the museum?

Survival is the point.
You say you are a luthier,
How have instruments survive without being in controlled environment? I worked on Jimmy D'Aquisto's house in Greenport, NY and watched him build guitars. He worked with his door and window open while making his archtops. Those instruments are were sent all over the world

"usually huge swings in temperature and relative humidity" are normal
and we as craftsmen need to except that

Now all wood does move
and we are all assuming why this table cracked before we see the details of construction

and you know what happens when you assume?

[Chris Fournier]

"+1. Design for the environment? :confused: Frankly, using sound stock selection and proper joinery furniture should be just fine"... Quote: George Bregar

I think that you have partially answered your own question George.

Closer to your situation in Wisconsin, I had a commission to build three pieces of furniture for a cottager in Central Ontario. The pieces used larger waned edge flitches and like yours the furniture was going to have to roll with the seasonal punches; most importantly no heat in the winter with the exception of few heated weekends. One major concern for me was finish selection; not only did the finish have to be durable on wear surfaces it had to withstand rapid and rather large temperature changes. I chose to use a flexible film finish that was not prone to cold checking. Rocket science? No, but this is what I'm talking about when I say design for the environment. A poor finish choice, like lacquer would most likely have cost me an expensive call back.

[George Bregar]

"+1. Design for the environment? :confused: Frankly, using sound stock selection and proper joinery furniture should be just fine"... Quote: George Bregar

I think that you have partially answered your own question George.

Closer to your situation in Wisconsin, I had a commission to build three pieces of furniture for a cottager in Central Ontario. The pieces used larger waned edge flitches and like yours the furniture was going to have to roll with the seasonal punches; most importantly no heat in the winter with the exception of few heated weekends. One major concern for me was finish selection; not only did the finish have to be durable on wear surfaces it had to withstand rapid and rather large temperature changes. I chose to use a flexible film finish that was not prone to cold checking. Rocket science? No, but this is what I'm talking about when I say design for the environment. A poor finish choice, like lacquer would most likely have cost me an expensive call back. You were talking "build" and "construction", and frankly I don't know any finish that would overcome or prevent wood splitting or a joint failing. So what would you do in the "build" or "construction" areas?

[Chris Fournier]

Phil and George, I think that you are trying to be obtuse and doing very well at it!

Phil, yes I have made guitars, you called me a luthier. Many people have made great livings repairing the effects of climate upon guitars; books have even been written about it. In the Northern hemisphere anyone with a decent guitar takes great care to protect it from low RH.

George, I laid on 3/4" of epoxy, worked like a charm. And yes, both sides but I only encapsulated the playing cards, dice, coasters, cheesecake photos and pen knife on the show surface.

[George Bregar]

Phil and George, I think that you are trying to be obtuse and doing very well at it!

Phil, yes I have made guitars, you called me a luthier. Many people have made great livings repairing the effects of climate upon guitars; books have even been written about it. In the Northern hemisphere anyone with a decent guitar takes great care to protect it from low RH.

George, I laid on 3/4" of epoxy, worked like a charm. And yes, both sides but I only encapsulated the playing cards, dice, coasters, cheesecake photos and pen knife on the show surface. I'm not being obtuse. We, and you, were talking "build". You even brought up mechanical techniques like nails. Pretty sure a nail isn't a finish. Your question: "Would you build furniture in the same manner for both environments?" My answer: Yes. The only thing I change is at time of build, if it's humid, I accommodate for dry. And vice versa. But I design and build in the same manner, for changing conditions, not for static conditions. You clearly say you don't. What would you do different?

[Steve H Graham]

If you paid a pile of money for a Corvette Z06 and took it off roading and tore the undercarriage out would you look for a refund too?

Where is the evidence that the buyer took the table "off-roading"? That seems like a great leap of logic to me. In all likelihood, it sat in a dining room, like hundreds of millions of other tables which have not cracked. I've never had a table split on me. I've never had a friend or relative tell me their table split. I've never seen a split table. It's very unusual, and that tells me it's probably related to a construction error. The OP seems to think he did something wrong. Why assume someone else screwed up? Until I read this thread, I never saw anyone say anything to suggest that a piece of quality furniture shouldn't have a two-year warranty.



I highly doubt that the OP is to blame for this problem so why should he assume any responsibility for someone elses mistake?Why do you doubt it?

I know this: there is no way I'd pay for custom-made furniture, if the warranty wasn't at least as good as those offered by manufacturers. Thomasville gives three years.

[Steve H Graham]

I decided to check into guitar warranties, since guitars are more delicate than furniture and they are moved and handled a great deal. I have a 1987 Taylor which could pass for one year old. I never do anything to take care of it. Here's text from the lifetime warranty:


TAYLOR warrants solely to the original purchaser of this TAYLOR musical instrument that the instrument purchased shall be free from defects in materials and workmanship under normal use for as long as the instrument is owned by the original purchaser, and until the ownership of the instrument is transferred to another (unless otherwise noted by TAYLOR).

It also has language about "extremes" of temperature and humidity, but given the things a well-cared-for instrument has to tolerate, I very much doubt a piece of fine furniture in an ordinary home would ever encounter such conditions.

[Bruce Melton]

The split is at a glue line and has worsened in a weeks time. The table was 2 years old this past October. The table sets in a nook off the kitchen and next to the built in double oven which could have some bearing. The table is basiclly rectangular but has as one corner with sweeping rounded corner to help provide egress in and out of the kitchen. The other end of the table is fine. I still have much to learn about working with wood and appreciate all the comments and replies. Once I get the piece back in the shop I believe I'll rip the glue line, joint, reglue and use keys on the bottom. 183082

[Matt Day]

Where's the crack?

[mreza Salav]

I have had wood crack a few times but I think if it opens at the glue line then either:

1- your glue was bad (frozen? old? not proper type?)
2- didn't use enough glue

A similar story I had:
I once built a fancy end-grain cutting board that was shipped to Seattle in the dead winter (was -20 here!).
The customer said after she received it and washed and dried with hand it made a few pop and several crack appeared in the pieces (not glue joints).
I don't know what exactly she did but she sent it back (refund); sure enough many pieces had cracked. I kept it on my bench with the intention of
replacing those pieces and after a couple of weeks when I went back the cracks had completely disappeared to the extend that I cannot find them no matter how hard I look!
I guess it was just the result of an extreme climate change in unfinished wood. Now I have a fancy cutting board that is no good and it's a waste.

[Tyler R. Jones]

Just something to ponder for those who think furniture should be built only for one intended climate: Most great furniture makers build their peices at one shop and ship them all over. Sam Maloof, Brian Boggs, Max Woody, just to name a few american contemporaries. I can tell you that these pieces aren't built for one specific place, nor is the workshop they were made in somehow special. I have been to Brian Boggs and Max Woody's, they are in North Carolina and have very little humidity control (none in Mr Woody's.) All three of these guys (RIP Sam) and for that matter most great furniture makers offer lifetime, thats right, lifetime guarantees when it comes to workmanship. And no disrespect to the OP but a table splitting is 99.99999% of the time because of a construction error.

[Rod Sheridan]

Bruce, how is the top attached to the legs?

Does the attachment method allow the top to expand and contract across the width seasonally?

If that's not the problem, then a glue joint issue or stock preparation problem.

Regards, Rod.

[Steve Schoene]

I'd tend to agree. I hope the O.P. will post a picture of the underside of the table. As others have mentioned, how the top was attached to the base is crucial. Accounting for variations in humidity is important, and it is important to realize that wood never stops moving.