Educate me about plywood please.....

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I am in the design process for a new entertainment center for our livingroom. The LOML loves oak.

Yesterday while trying to find a new source of cabinet hardware locally, I stopped in at a local lumberyard. I quit shopping here over the last 2 years as due to the downturned economy, they were no longer open on Saturdays and close early each evening about the time the average DIYer gets off work. This lumberyard pretty much placed themselves in a situation to do business with contractors only.

They didn't have the hinges I was hoping to find locally but in a conversation with a friend who works there, he stated they had a limited supply of hardwood and hardwood plywood. He took me to the warehouse and showed me what they had.

On another note....they carry cherry and I could have gotten it 3 dollars cheaper per board foot than I paid ....and I didn't have to drive 30 miles each way to get it....

The 3/4" oak plywood they had was 5 layers...but the outer oak skins were at least or maybe slightly thicker than 1/8". Is that normal? Now he printed me a list of their offerings and it says it's 7 layer but I swear I could only see 5 and that outer two oak layers were over 1/8" thick. Is there hardwood plywood 5 layers with 1/8" hardwood on the outside or were my eyes failing me?

[Bruce Page]

Could there be two layers of veneer so thin that you can't see them?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I don't know Bruce and that's what confused me. Their warehouse isn't well lighted so I think when I go out later today, I'll swing by with my 13 bulb LED flashlight and take another look at it. I know the last stuff I bought at HD, the skin was so thin, I was afraid to look at it too long, let alone sand it.

[Tony Joyce]

Some of the import plywood, sometimes has face veneer that is almost painted on. Any sanding will go through. Could be what you're looking at.

[Matt Meiser]

I agree--has to be a very thin face veneer. Even the good stuff I've bought doesn't have a face nearly as thick as what you describe. Also, ask where its made. If they can't show you or if its not made in the US/Canada--RUN!

The lumber yard by me that adopted that business hours scheme is now a feed and pond store. I heard the feed/pond store owners got a good price on the building at the bankruptcy auction. I frequently drove right by in the evenings and weekends to get to Lowes.

[glenn bradley]

Could there be two layers of veneer so thin that you can't see them?

That's my guess as well. The oak veneer ply at the decent lumber yard I go to has very thin outer skins. Its easier to detect on the walnut ply as the color difference is so severe.

The really thin veneer makes for a bit of a finishing challenge. I recommend gel or dye. Penetrating finishes like oils can telegraph the glue patterns and underlying layer's "footballs", if any. Not a pleasant thing to find after your piece is assembled. Test your finish on a scrap of ply and once happy, match your solid wood to it. I sand the solid material to a high grit to minimize absorption and use multiple applications of dye to slowly deepen the hardwood color to match the ply.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Agree on very thin veneer. I sanded through mine with a 220 hand sanding block. It started when I saw this discoloration I wanted to sand....... Then it got bigger and bigger....... Maybe I just should not have stared at it too long. LOL

[Tony Bilello]

I am inclined to go along with the 'very thin' group. If the face veneer were 1/8" thick, it would split as the 1/8" top and bottom would expand and contract at a different rate than the plywood core.
Now for the cherry......It is less expensive but is it of the same quality as the other place?

[johnny means]

Beware, this type of plywood has veneer so thin you can sometimes literally see through it. Nothing is worse than building a project only to get the "wet t-shirt effect" when you apply finish. *** Witty yet questionable comment***;)

[Jim Summers]

I agree--has to be a very thin face veneer. Even the good stuff I've bought doesn't have a face nearly as thick as what you describe. Also, ask where its made. If they can't show you or if its not made in the US/Canada--RUN!


I am pretty sure the stuff I have been using is from South America. It has been good stuff and plenty of face veneer that I did not worry about finish sanding it.

[Mike Henderson]

3/4" plywood with only 5 internal plys would not be my choice. If you can find any Baltic birch plywood it would be more stable and probably have less voids and overlaps than what you describe. Good Baltic birch has a high number of plys (I'll have to count them one day) and very few voids. If you can't find Baltic birch with the facing you want, you might try veneering it yourself.

Mike

[Tim Sproul]

The FSC certified, made in the USA plywood I purchase is 7 plies. 3 core layers of fir veneer. Sandwiched with mdf or similar manmade material. Then covered with the outer veneer layers that are ~1/16 thick.

I like it. Flat. Pretty good uniformity (for plywood). Almost entirely void free.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

The lighting in their warehouse left a lot to be desired. I think I'll take my 13 bulb LED flashlight with me tomorrow and look at it.

[Rob Cunningham]

Ken,
If you can, pull a sheet or two and look at it in the sunlight. I bought some oak ply that looked good in the warehouse, but when I got it out in the sun, you could see through the thin veneer to glue layer. It had a pinkish cast to it and was visible in the pores of the oak.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

Oak looks great on floors.

[Matt Day]

What's the thought on MDF core veneer? I bought a sheet of 2 sided maple veneer with MDF core and it worked great - on the order of $60 IIRC.

On plywood - there's an article on the most recent issue of WOOD describing the differences.

[David Weaver]

Oak looks great on floors.

I think Ken's comment about LOML wanting oak pretty much takes out any need for debate on whether or not it's a nice furniture look.

(I don't like it either, but my inlaws and wife do - sometimes it's not a choice).

[Rick Pettit]

Oak looks great on floors.

So does maple, walnut, cherry, ash, pine, mahogany, teak. I'm sure I missed something.

[Chris Padilla]

Just to echo everyone else: the oak was likely extremely thin and/or simply blended well into the ply under it.

On the "rolling your own" front: it is a lot of work resawing veneers, sanding them to uniform thickness, and then gluing and pressing them on your preferred substrate BUT you can get exactly what you want since you are making it "from scratch" so to speak. I did exactly this on my tansu (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?92396).

[David Weaver]

Just to echo everyone else: the oak was likely extremely thin and/or simply blended well into the ply under it.

On the "rolling your own" front: it is a lot of work resawing veneers, sanding them to uniform thickness, and then gluing and pressing them on your preferred substrate BUT you can get exactly what you want since you are making it "from scratch" so to speak. I did exactly this on my tansu (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?92396).

You can easily resaw them to similar thickness and just hanplane them (if you don't have a WBS or a large drum sander). I've done that several times applying cherry to BB and it's worked well, especially on something that needs to be flush with another surface. It's very nice to have an eighth or more of wood to work with to plane, scrape sand or whatever, and especially nice that it finishes just as well as the remainder of the piece. I don't like the way the super thin veneers on ply suck in sanding sealer or shellac, either.

[Ole Anderson]

The FSC certified, made in the USA plywood I purchase is 7 plies. 3 core layers of fir veneer. Sandwiched with mdf or similar manmade material. Then covered with the outer veneer layers that are ~1/16 thick.

I like it. Flat. Pretty good uniformity (for plywood). Almost entirely void free.

Is this generally available, if so where, who is the manufacturer? I would love 1/16" veneer to play with, just sanded thru some very thin veneer applying edging. It was shop grade plain sawn (not rotary cut) Red Oak made in Canada.

I got some 5 ply at the BORG years ago that substituted what looked like OSB for the middle 3 layers and had a fairly thick veneer. I liked it.

[Chris Padilla]

You can easily resaw them to similar thickness and just hanplane them (if you don't have a WBS or a large drum sander). I've done that several times applying cherry to BB and it's worked well, especially on something that needs to be flush with another surface. It's very nice to have an eighth or more of wood to work with to plane, scrape sand or whatever, and especially nice that it finishes just as well as the remainder of the piece. I don't like the way the super thin veneers on ply suck in sanding sealer or shellac, either.

I drum sanded all my veneers to 1/16" and it worked out very nicely for my project. It was a lot of work and all that sanding was probably the most mind-numbing task I've ever done for a project but the results were just fantastic. I fully agree with your thoughts on super-thin plywood veneers: I've seen them finish and look so much different than the solid wood around them.

[Dick Strauss]

Ole,
If you have a Menard's near you, take a look at their stock. Their ThickFace plywood claims a 1/36" thick veneer on pretty decent plywood. They have a variety of core material as well...no connection to Menard's here but do shop.

[Greg Portland]

What's the thought on MDF core veneer? I bought a sheet of 2 sided maple veneer with MDF core and it worked great - on the order of $60 IIRC.

On plywood - there's an article on the most recent issue of WOOD describing the differences.
Plywood is lighter and stronger. The MDF core stuff is cheaper, more stable, but not as strong.

[Randy Henry]

All hardwood plywood comes in different grades. If it is not stamped A1 on the sides, then I would stay clear. I used a sheet of B2 once, looked fine, but when I went to stain, a half moon about the size of a half quarter mysteriously appeared. I ended up taking a syringe of epoxy to fill it, but it did not get rid of the void completely. Never again. If A1 is not available, then I would use solids on the outside and maybe the cheap oak ply on the shelves. All the A1 I use is made in the USA. I am unsure if A1 is available as an import.

[Paul Johnstone]

I have used some B grade plywood.. it's honestly a crapshoot.
Ken, if I was you, I would buy a sheet or two and start cutting out the shelves (They are going to be less visible and you are probably going to put some kind of edge treatment on them anyhow.

Cut them up and see how it works.. if it's good stuff, buy enough to finish up the job.. Chances are, it will probably at least be adequate for the hidden shelves, so it's not likely you will be out money.