anybody use 85 degree swept back w/ Wolverine Varigrind

[Michael Ginsberg]

NEED HELP W/ SHARPENING...In the blue Ellsworth book, David shows an 85 degree sweptback gouge for the finishing cut that picks up from the lower side wall of the bowl transitioning into the bottom. It gives a better cut than a scraper (which I currently use). Using the standard Ellsworth grind sweptback gouge with a 60 degree tip angle, does not do a good job because the bevel is not supported. That being said, I tried shapening a Crown PM Ellsworth gouge with an angle of 85 degrees. I used the Wolverine with the Varigrind attachment. I exteded the tip 2 inches past and sharpened the wings and tip as normal. I used a very light touch but the gouge still wants to almost slip under the wheel (it did actually). The problem is that with such a steep angle as 85 degrees, there is not much metal hitting the wheel.... If anybody uses this gouge and shapens on the same system as I do, I would appreciate any assistance. THANKS!

[bob svoboda]

Maybe just me, but I would only attempt that grind using the flat tool rest and grinding freehand.

[David E Keller]

I agree with Bob. I don't use the varigrind for the traditional grind... I just stick the handle of the gouge in the pocket of the jig and rotate the tool by hand against the stone. You could do it on the platform as well. It's essentially just like sharpening a roughing gouge.

[Michael Ginsberg]

David and Bob,
I already have a traditional 85 degree that I do on the flat toolrest. I wanted to do a sweptback like Ellsworth shows in the book. He recommends the traditional on smaller objects like a goblet and recommends the sweptback for bowls.

[Dennis Ford]

+1 on using a flat tool-rest. Using a jig at that angle could be dangerous if the gouge digs into the grinding wheel. You can do a swept back grind freehand, takes a little practice but is not hard to learn.

[Michael Ginsberg]

+1 on using a flat tool-rest. Using a jig at that angle could be dangerous if the gouge digs into the grinding wheel. You can do a swept back grind freehand, takes a little practice but is not hard to learn.

Dennis,
I know the possibilities of the danger. It snuck under the wheel, took a small chunk from the gouge, and scared the c_ _p out of me. There must be a way though with some jig.

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Check the date of that publication. If it predates the Ellsworth jig, you may have to hand hold the tool for sharpening. Ellsworth's early videos show him hand holding tools and making a swept back grind. He works each side toward the middle. It looks like it takes a lot of practice.

[Michael Ginsberg]

Faust, Thank you. It is the new book. I tried this operation on both the Varigrind and the aluminum Ellsworth jig. Exact same results with both (and the tool barely touching the wheel with either).

[Thom Sturgill]

If I recall, with a varagrind you need to elevate the pocket about two or three inches. David Ellsworth wants the pocket only 4" below the wheel's center.

[David E Keller]

I'm probably missing something here, but can't you create that sweep just by rotating the gouge beyond 90 degrees in both directions? I'm not familiar with this particular grind, but it seems that 'over-rotating' will give you some sweep back... I assume he does this just to give some clearance on the corners when working near the bottom of a piece.

[Michael Ginsberg]

I'm probably missing something here, but can't you create that sweep just by rotating the gouge beyond 90 degrees in both directions? I'm not familiar with this particular grind, but it seems that 'over-rotating' will give you some sweep back... I assume he does this just to give some clearance on the corners when working near the bottom of a piece.

David, I don't think it works like that. The wings are swept back on an angle. Check out what a Ellsworth grind, Irish grind, sweptback grind looks like. I am sure it can be done freehand with a big learning curve. I want to use a jig if possible so I can repeat the same grind all the time and not waste metal.

[Thom Sturgill]

I'm probably missing something here, but can't you create that sweep just by rotating the gouge beyond 90 degrees in both directions? I'm not familiar with this particular grind, but it seems that 'over-rotating' will give you some sweep back... I assume he does this just to give some clearance on the corners when working near the bottom of a piece.
You have to both rotate and swing side to side.

[Mark Levitski]

Try a double bevel. Make a swept-back 45* on the vari-grind, then put it on the toolrest (not the handle in the pocket-- for safety) to do another 40* for the cutting edge. Never tried it, just an idea to get the wings out of the way for the primary bevel. I usually use a standard double-bevel grind, 80* or so (40/40) for my bowl bottoms instead of a scraper some of the times. I can't see a need for the Irish grind wings in this application. Anyone?

[Gary Conklin]

Personally I would shoot David an email and see what he has to say about it.

[Ryan Baker]

It doesn't apply to a swept-back grind anyway, but don't try to just put the tool in the V-arm for an 85 degree bevel either, because the result is even more dangerous than using the Varigrind. The tool will get pulled down and jamb in hard, taking chunks out of the wheel, the tool, and possibly you. It just isn't safe.

To perform that grind on a regular grinder, the only safe way to do it is freehand on the flat rest. It isn't that hard to do with a little practice. You don't need a lot of sweep for that tool either.

The alternative way to do it is to use a grinder that turns AWAY from you (up away from the edge), instead of the normal grinder turning down into the edge. A Tormek, for example, is one way you could sharpen this tool with a jig safely. A belt sander is another option, as long as it is turning away from the edge not down into it.

[Don Geiger]

Dear Fellow Woodturners:

I have experimented a lot with steeper grinds up to 85 degrees. What I recommend:
1) If you want to hold the gouge with a jig and sharpen on a bench grinder, DO NOT exceed 70 degrees. If you exceed 70 degrees you increase the risk of the gouge being dragged downward by the wheel which is very dangerous.
2) If you are good at hand-sharpening, do it on the platform tool rest- not in a jig.
3) I like a side-ground gouge with a micro-bevel (see photo below) for the purpose of making finishing cuts on the inside bottom of open vessels, I modify a deep-fluted bowl gouge (I use Crown). To get a very nice repeatable grind and a controlled and repeatble secondary bevel, I use a jig. I am able to do this up to 85 degrees safely because I use a Tormek which has a wheel that rotates upward away from my jig and V-pocket support system. I can use either the Ellsworth jig or the Vari-Grind with the Vertical Solution for Tormek (see photo below).
4) To grind and maintain the 85 degree cutting bevel I use a shim on the end of the horizontal positioning gauge provided with the Vertical Solution. This moves the V-notch back away from the wheel a specific distance and is very repreatable. After sharpening the primary bevel, I add a 1-1/4 shim to the V-notch which moves the stem of my jig forward thus presenting the heel of the bevel to the wheel so I can grind the secondary relief bevel.
5) This technique gives me very controlled and repeatable results and is a safe way to grind the 85 degree bevel.

If anyone needs help with this, let me know.

Don Geiger

182121182122

[Phil St.Germain]

Here's a great video by Mike Mahoney on sharpening gouges without a jig:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m8-8MNhpvY

Hope you find it useful.

[Michael Ginsberg]

Mark, Thanks. I don't know if there is a need for a 85 degree sweptback either... I just saw the gouge in Ellsworth's book and I figured I "need one too"...

[Michael Ginsberg]

Thanks Ryan,
I do have the standard 85 which I ground freehand on the flat tool rest. My problem is the sweptback. You mentioned it did't apply to a sweptback, but it does if you are trying to make the gouge he shows in his book. Ellsworth says the traditional 85 is good for small deep items such as agoblet, and the sweptback 85 is good for finishing cuts on the wall transition through the bottomfor larger items such as bowls.

[Ryan Baker]

Thanks Ryan,
I do have the standard 85 which I ground freehand on the flat tool rest. My problem is the sweptback. You mentioned it did't apply to a sweptback, but it does if you are trying to make the gouge he shows in his book. Ellsworth says the traditional 85 is good for small deep items such as agoblet, and the sweptback 85 is good for finishing cuts on the wall transition through the bottomfor larger items such as bowls.


When I said it didn't apply to the sweptback grind, I was referring to just using the V-arm, and simply rotating the gouge on its axis. That works for traditional grinds, but as you pointed out it doesn't apply to sweptback grinds because they require swinging as well as rotating.

Anyway, yes I do use the 85 degree grind for finishing deep bottoms and find it very useful for that. I did have an "incident" while sharpening an 85 degree sweptback grind with a vari-grind (no significant damage thank goodness), and I won't be repeating that experience. Just be careful. It only takes milliseconds for things to go from "seems safe enough" to "need new underwear".

[Steve Harder]

Using grinding wheel at 85deg spooked me. So I got out the benchtop belt sander. First time I'd tried sharpening turning tools with a belt, but it really went well. I drilled a pilot hole for the varigrind in a piece of pine, clamped it upright in bench vise, pulled the belt over closer, tweaked the positioning, and was able to use the varigrind to hold tool while on the belt. With the belt pulling away there were no safety issues with being perpendicular to the sharpening media.

I don't think I'll bother using the belt for normal sharpening, but it did an excellent job on the 85deg gouge - which doesn't get used that much and won't need sharpening that often.