A chest of delights....

[Mike Heaney]

or a pandora's box?

I jumped in with both feet here- not sure this was wise or foolish- but thought I would give you a glimpse, and ask for comments/info!

Here's the background- I found a woodworkers chest locally on craigslist. The box is old, beaten up, protected by metal plates, and has served as a saw and chisel sharpness tester on its top for years. It about 36" long, 20" tall, and about 24" wide. Most of the boards are full width pieces so it is wide stock!

I'm calling it CB's toolbox- since those are the initials' stamped on most of the tools. And here is what it looks like. Best I can guess I think based on the design that it is probably about 150 years old. The provenance only goes back to the previous owner saying it was a "Gift from my Grandfather 35 years ago, I've no idea where he got it and he was not a woodworker". Best I can work out, I don't think any of the contents have been used for a lot longer than that, and I don't think there is anything in the box that would be later than about 1920.
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More pics of contents to follow

thoughts/observations?

regards

Mike

[Mike Heaney]

I have taken a bundle of detailed pics, but let us start with the overall view. This is what was in the box:
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and some closer shots:
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Plus of course the contents you saw in the shelves in the earlier post.
about 25 molding planes
2 plow planes (with 9 Samuel Newbould irons)
2 rabbet planes
2 flat smoothers
1 curved smoothers
3 jack planes
2 jointer planes
4 levels
4 saws
4 marking guages
1 wooden rule
gouges, chisels, 1 Jennings Pattern bit, 1 auger, 1 expanding diameter bit, 1 hook, some sharpening stones, some layout tools etc etc etc!

So, what do you want to see more of?
What should I use for firewood? http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/icons/icon12.png
What do you want me to send you by priority mail?

Seriously, I bought this box with the hope that I could turn as much as possible into users. But I am no expert on wooden planes- as you can see from under my bench if you look carefully, I have 3 other wooden planes!

Some additional questions- at what point is a crack a problem? (use it until it breaks? fix it?)
Where can I get tool steel to make replacement blades if necessary?
Best rehab for the wood (Mineral spirits followed by non petroleum polish?)

and a thousand others- anyway, tell me what you want to see next

thanks

Mike

[george wilson]

Your attachments are "invalid" for some reason. can you just add pics to your original post?

[Tony Shea]

Sounds like a great haul. But is a bit hard to tell from here as I can use your picture links for some reason. Hopefully it's not my end of things. I can see you're pics in the first post but the second post has some bad links it seems.

[David Weaver]

Tool steel - precision ground O1 from mcmaster carr, unless you want something water hardening, which is maybe getting harder to find.

Hard to tell what's a problem until the pictures are fixed. Quite a lot of old wooden planes have cracks in the end grain that don't go in deep enough to be critical.

What you don't want is big cracks in the plane cheeks (next to the iron and wedge) and really anything other than endgrain cracks in a moulding plane.

[Mike Heaney]

hopefully fixed pics- let me know if that works

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

I can see the pics, but they are a bit on the small side.

LN sells replacement blank irons for molding planes.

I would be happy to have all of them and try to put them to work just for the fun of it.

I think Newbould was in business from about 1780 to 1820. One of my mortise chisels has his mark.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Since everyone else is going to dance around the question, and i'm not that polite.... you mind telling us what you gave for it, so we can all hate ourselves for some fixed period of time? (not to make you feel obligated, you can tell us to butt out on that aspect, i just know other folks will be curious, too).

The bench planes look fabulous from here - very crisp, they don't look like they have tons of hangar rash on them (all of the lines on them still look crisp), they aren't covered with a layer of hard BLO goop.... I wonder if the irons are stuck tight in them, if the mouth is still crisp....and how old they are.

[David Weaver]

By the way, I am not a collector per se of wooden tools, but I do like users.

I always clean them lightly when I get them with boiled linseed oil, teak oil or tung oil and gray or white scotchbrite, but with a light touch.

I follow the linseed oil with wax to prevent mold growth. I like BLO the best, for no good reason, but it's the only one I've had mold grow on.

A petrolum based paste wax like minwax or briwax stops any mold in its tracks and doesn't penetrate into the wood since the oil has already permeated the surface.

I guess if you don't want to use anything petrolum based, you could mix oil and beeswax together and rub it on them, too (completely natural no pesticide beeswax is available on ebay straight from the beekeper for $6 a pound and mixed half and half with oil goes a long way).

[David Weaver]

Since I can't stop asking questions...

how about giving us some of the makes on the planes to entertain ourselves? Especially the non H&R moulding planes and the bench planes?

Any of them single irons?

[john brenton]

No no no, thank you Mike, for filling me with envy.

You're sitting on a goldmine man. You basically hit the super mega jackpot. Not only in what can be made from selling the tools off, but just for having. You basically inherited a full shop in my opinion.

I would buy a couple tubs of paste wax, a bottle of evapo-rust,a can of BLO or Tung Oil, a sack of 0000 steel wool, and a 24 pack of Sam Adams and spend the weekend bringing those beauts back to life.

Dang I'm jealous. Seriously.



I have taken a bundle of detailed pics, but let us start with the overall view. This is what was in the box:

Mike

[Richard Dooling]

Dang that's a great deal! I was thinking of sending in a gloat about a Millers Falls #14 but I think I'll give it a couple of days now!:o

Very cool Mike!

[Mark Wyatt]

Great haul. I'd love to see close-ups of the plow planes and some bigger pictures in general.

[john brenton]

Just a final thought from me...

Examine everything. If you don't know exactly what it is then post a pic and ask here. There is immense wealth of info in this forum. There are members here that only seem to come out to answer the most obscure and pointedly specific questions or ID stuff.

Everything has a mark somewhere (for the most part) and there may be too much rust on an iron, or too faint a stamp...but I guarantee someone here will now something about it.

If you know exactly what it is you can price it fairly easily by finding comparable items online, and you'll know what to restore and what to leave as is. But, back to the collector issue, that can be misleading too. One Sandusky plough is only as valuable as its usefulness, where another is worth hundreds. One #1408 is worth 20 bucks, where a 1409, with no real visible difference is more than a hundred.

Hell if I understand it.

[Niels Cosman]

Honestly I am surprise no one else has mentioned the obvious... You suck! :)
That looks like an amazing haul and the craigslist bonanza I dream about. Enjoy them!
Cheers,
Niels

[Mike Olson]

You Suuuuuuuuuuck!!! :eek:

i am so jealous...

[Mike Davis NC]

I'd be happy with the box, but... FULL OF TOOLS!!!!!!

[george wilson]

Do use tung oil if you oil them. Tung oil will not allow mold to grow on the wood like linseed oil will. We started using tung oil on our tools in the museum since some of the craftsmen store their tools in unheated sheds.

[Mike Heaney]

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Small smoothing plane closeup- posting this as a test to see if pic size is better

It is stamped

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"New York Tool Co."
and the number 3
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Iron is stamped "Auburn Tool Co"
"Thistle Brand"
Auburn NY

Which I think makes this production from the NY Correctional Facility- right?

[john brenton]

If you don't have an angle gauge, it would be a good time to have one and document all the angles of your places along with anything else you'll be documenting. I don't think this one is lower than usual...maybe just an optical illusion...but that's what made me think of it.

Someone may not have any interest in a 45* plane (of any kind), but be willing to pay a high price for a 50*.

[Mike Heaney]

I don't see any id on this so far. It actually looks nicer than the pics suggest, but it is missing one wooden adjusting nut, not sure what to do about that, because everything else adjusts smoothly without cleaning! It is about 12" long, and the fence has a fairly elaborate molding design- which I now realize I didn't really catch in the pictures

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And the iron set (plus the one in the plane) All labeled Samuel Newbould

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[Mike Heaney]

Not sure exactly what this one is- it has two knives, which look like they could cut either side of the bottom of a window frame- just guessing! There are a couple of dowels between the two sides as well as the twin screws- all seems to work fine. The dowels seem to work as additional stability?

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There is 1/2 a makers mark on one side of the plane - visible in pic 1.4, but I'm not sure what it says, possible the start of "Aubu" for "Auborn" ? = the fact that its only on one side suggests to me that maybe this plane is the marriage of two different planes, or significant modification.
thoughts?

[David Weaver]

The plow looks a lot like the large ohio tool beech plow planes, but not exactly. Stinks that the wheel on the arm is missing! Especially given the threads look pretty good.

No clue how you're going to find one without getting it off another plane. Be an interesting thing to try to make, but the plane would probably not be worth more than $100 even with it, so it might not be worth the effort.

by the way, it is not in the bottom of the box in two pieces is it? I've seen several plows where those nuts cracked and someone has fastened them back together with metal, all of them that I've seen have been english, though. Still worth a look.

[Mike Heaney]

Ok, I could be posting pics all day, so thought I should try and answer some questions as I go too!
David Weaver- thanks for all your comments/suggestions
- thanks for the pointer to McMaster Carr- I will look them up. I’m only missing one iron, but a couple of others are close to the end of their lives.
- Price- $500 (he was asking $675). I figured the junkiest of the planes would cost around $20 to use as a decorative piece, and $20 x25 molding planes=$500 and the rest is a bonus. Seller was happy with the price as he recognized the significant amount of tidying up that everything needs. Hope I got it about right. I could of course have spent 5 years carefully buying individual pieces and arrived at the same place with a few dollars in my pocket- but hey, I’m looking forward to using most of these sooner rather than later!
- Plane irons are all moving. Most of the bench planes are iron and cap- I have not tried to loosen any of the cap screws yet- may need some soaking first! The mouths are a mixed bag- more info to follow as I post pics on individual planes
- Plane makes- more info to come as I post pics, but since we are in Western MA, Greenfield is there a lot, Plus NY Tool Co/Auburn Tool, Wallace and others
- Thought about trying to turn a wheel for the plow- but since I only started turning last fall, I might be over my head! Never chased a thread yet, but maybe something I should try. I’ve emptied the box, and no random bits down there unfortunately!


John Brenton- good idea on the angle gauge – I’ll take some measurements tonight.
On finishing- I read that tung/BLO were frowned upon on the basis they are changing the patina/getting into the wood- but it seems on here no-one has mentioned that- something to think about, or just a concern for proper museum quality stuff?


OK, more pics to come, in the meantime, a teaser- anyone know what this is?
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keep the comments coming!


Mike

[David Weaver]

You did extremely well on price! Extremely well!! I would've paid that in half the time it takes to take a breath, even though I probably already have everything in the box.

It's so nice to be able to get a collection like that for a very reasonable price along with the *very* nice box, and extra bonus when the seller is satisfied, too.

[john brenton]

It just looks like a cool meat mallet with a fork on the back...maybe for tenderizing meat and poking holes for the marinade to soak in?

I might be completely wrong on that...but that's what it looks like to me.

[john brenton]

At $500, you stole that lot. Unbelievable price. Gloat of the year. It beats the $200 Ulmia joiner's bench.

With that much diversity in tools there, you might find that just a couple of items pays for the whole lot. I've probably picked about 4 or 5 full carpenter's boxes over the last year alone (nothing like your treasure trove though) and each time have been able to pay for the whole box with the sale of one or two prized tools, keeping what I want and selling off the rest for pure profit on ebay (small stuff) and craigslist (larger stuff). Over the last couple of years I have never had a carpenter's box not pay for itself with the sale of just a few tools, although in the last year the sales have been exceptionally good.

That's why I said that you should make sure you identify everything, and do a little museum style documenting of maker, size, angle, any damage etc. AS you clean them up. With that many tools, it would be smart to make some hang tags and number each item to correspond to a spreadsheet with all the info. It's fun to do. I wish I was the one doing it with that lot...I'm still jealous.





- Price- $500 (he was asking $675). I figured the junkiest of the planes would cost around $20 to use as a decorative piece, and $20 x25 molding planes=$500 and the rest is a bonus. Seller was happy with the price as he recognized the significant amount of tidying up that everything needs. Hope I got it about right. I could of course have spent 5 years carefully buying individual pieces and arrived at the same place with a few dollars in my pocket- but hey, I’m looking forward to using most of these sooner rather than later!

[David Weaver]

Not sure exactly what this one is- it has two knives, which look like they could cut either side of the bottom of a window frame- just guessing! There are a couple of dowels between the two sides as well as the twin screws- all seems to work fine. The dowels seem to work as additional stability?

[There is 1/2 a makers mark on one side of the plane - visible in pic 1.4, but I'm not sure what it says, possible the start of "Aubu" for "Auborn" ? = the fact that its only on one side suggests to me that maybe this plane is the marriage of two different planes, or significant modification.
thoughts?

it is a sash plane, btw, good guess on it being for windows.

It's intended to be two planes together like that.

Never seen anyone use one, never seen one in user condition, either (as in having clearly been used lately).

I would guess it's auburn, just like the other tools.

Maybe someone who has one and uses it could describe why it's not made as one plane (though I've seen pictures of planes that are one plane as opposed to two halves with threaded rods).

[James Scheffler]

I was interested in that ad on CL but I just couldn't see jumping on it for the price as a whole. It was probably a good deal overall , but that's to steep for me all at one time. Sounds like they're going to a good home!

Have fun with it!

Jim S.

[James Scheffler]

By the way, I'm local & might be interested in picking up a few more wood planes. Let me know if you decide to put any up for sale....

Jim S.

[Mike Heaney]

I was going to say "sash", but then I thought that this plane doesn't really work on the sash itself- but does work on sash windows!
I think the adjustment in width is so that it can work on sills of different widths?

[David Weaver]

I was going to say "sash", but then I thought that this plane doesn't really work on the sash itself- but does work on sash windows!
I think the adjustment in width is so that it can work on sills of different widths?

Probably, but I wasn't going to stick my neck out and say that's the case when I've never even seen one used. It's a nifty gadget, even if you never get a chance to use it on anything. It seems like they shouldn't be that uncommon, and it's possible I saw a lot when I was out buying everything I could find several years ago, but don't remember them because I wouldn't have known what they were. I had enough trouble finding good usable hollows and rounds without paying loads of money.

If they were mainly used for site work and refurbishing windows, maybe they were in two parts so you could have a bunch of profiles - ovolos, etc, without the cost of building full planes with both sides of the profile, and without having to carry large planes.

[Andrae Covington]

According to the Pollak book, New York Tool Co. was a brand used by the Auburn Tool Co. from 1864-1893. From 1864-1865 and again from 1874-1877 Auburn did use prison labor.

The mark is considered "frequently found" so it doesn't really have collector value. If it's in serviceable condition, use it.:)

[Andrae Covington]

Samuel Newbould's father was a shear-smith in Sheffield, England, and Samuel took over the family business in about 1781. Sometime in the early 1800's the business was expanded to include steelmaking. The company merged with Sanderson Brothers in 1900.

[Mike Heaney]

This one looks kind of cool to me, but I fear the damage may be too much to recover- thoughts?
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Mike

[Mike Heaney]

not terribly pretty! but the iron has more than a little life left!!!

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[Mike Heaney]

I can't quite make out the full name, but it starts Eagle for sure. About 28 inches long and more than 4 inches wide.

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[David Weaver]

This one looks kind of cool to me, but I fear the damage may be too much to recover- thoughts?

Mike

I've seen planes like that with the cheeks repaired. I guess if you really want to use it, you could take the iron out, try to glue the cheek and then float the edges (i.e., remove some wood to make room) where it's tight against the irons.

If the crack is only way up at the top of the cheek, it may still work fine.

I generally consider a plane like that pooched and take the iron out of it, but that's more due to how common old beech smoothers are than an absolute issue of whether or not it can be used.

I had one that had been nailed, which did nothing for it at all. I would think any glue that would be brittle will just come apart again the next time there's pressure on the joint, especially the immense pressure that the wood can exert on itself when it dries and shrinks against an iron.

[Mike Heaney]

about 28 inches long, and around 3 inches wide. No obvious makers mark.

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[David Weaver]

I can't quite make out the full name, but it starts Eagle for sure. About 28 inches long and more than 2 inches wide.



The mouth is really pretty tidy on that plane, but it's a little wide because it's a double iron plane. It should be a good user. Cracks on it are superficial. Long woody jointers are really nice to use, definitely worth tinkering.

No clue on the maker.

[Mike Heaney]

This one is around 19" long, more than 3" wide.

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[Mike Heaney]

16" long, 3" wide. Missing handle (recently, by the look of it, unfortunately, no pieces sitting in the bottom of the toolbox).

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[Mike Heaney]

Again about 16" long, 3" wide, decent iron, long gone handle

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[Mike Heaney]

Now, do we blame CB for the condition of these chisels, or assume some other ham fisted idiot did the damage!

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Interestingly, some of the things not in the toolbox are interesting to me- eg, no mallets or hammers- so either they have gone walkabout already, or someone was hitting chisels with other random things!

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Seriously, what would you do with these chisels- the gouges I can recover to working order, but the chisels?

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[David Weaver]

take the chisels to your belt sander or grinder and run all of the flowered edge off until you have a good uniform socket. It looks like there should be enough there that if you make a nice socket handle, there will be plenty of support.

I have done that several times, and even with a third of the socket gone, i've never come close to breaking off the tenon that goes into the socket.

[David Weaver]

my thoughts on the bench planes, all of the ones with totes look pretty good. The ones that don't have tote, probably the iron and chipbreaker are worth more after you dip them in something to neutralize the rust.

You could make a tote for the jack that still has a nice mortise, but they are so common and cheap that I don't think it would be worth the frustration.

You can always make a plane later for the lovely cast steel irons, or if you don't want to do anything yet, you can always put those two planes at the bottom of the box.

[Charles McKinley]

Again a big YOU SUCK!

Bob Smalser has a post\tutorial here on restoring chisels.

[Michael MacDonald]

nice haul... I am not well versed in restoring--or even using--hand tools at the level of those here drooling over your treasure. But I like the history aspect of it and I am duly impressed. (You have way to many items there for one guy... What kind of condition are the marking gauges in? Built to last or over the hill?)

[Mike Heaney]

These are all over the map in terms of condition

- there is one scratch post without a gauge block at all- so really its a stick with a sharp thing in it

- there is one that is pretty ropey:

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- another that is missing a screw:

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- a single gauge that is quite serviceable, with nice brass adjuster, it has a maker's mark I haven't quite made out yet:

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- and a mortise gauge/single scribe that is quite serviceable too, and also features a brass adjuster:

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[Andrae Covington]

I can't quite make out the full name, but it starts Eagle for sure. About 28 inches long and more than 4 inches wide.

Eagle Manufacturing Company in Williamsburg, MA, abbreviated EAGLE MNG. CO on their stamps. There was also Eagle Tool Co. which was another Auburn Tool Co. brand but the lettering for that was straight across, whereas the Eagle Mng. Co. is arched like yours. Dates from around 1850.

This one might actually have some value. The Pollak book rates the rarity of makers marks starting with FF (frequently found) at the bottom, then one to five stars. This is a three-star mark. If there had also been WMSBURG MASS below, it would be a five-star mark. I should probably say that sometimes people disagree with the Pollak ratings one way or another, and of course there are additional factors such as condition, the relative rarity of that particular type of plane, etc.

[Andrae Covington]

John Whelan's The Wooden Plane has a section on sash planes of various types. On the adjustable sash plane, he says:


The ADJUSTABLE SASH plane is made in two pieces, a filletster stock and a molding stock joined by some means of holding a fixed spacing between them. The object, of course, is to permit cutting bars of different depth for different size windows, the added length being in the flat side of the bar on the room side of the glass.

[David Keller NC]

Mike - A comment on the collector's value of your chest. While it is true that the individual value of each item in the chest is relatively low, that isn't true of the chest as a whole. If sold as a (largely) complete circa 1870 American joiner's chest with tools, it will bring a whole lot more than $500. The simple reason is that mostly complete sets of tools from the 19th century are becoming increasingly rare, as most new owners break the set up and sell off individual items. Collectors do look for these sets, if only as documentation of the state of the craft around the time the original owner had them.

Regarding the damage - very unfortunately, you've a common situation. The original owner dies, and a family member inherits them. Not being a craftsman, they've no knowledge of how to use the tools or how to care for them, and you find damage as you've pictured - broken handles, mushroomed sockets on the chisels, etc..

One other thing to realize about collectability - the price point for mostly complete tool chests rises rather steeply the earlier they go. If one was to be so incredibly lucky to stumble across a largely pristine and largely complete American 18th century cabinetmaker's chest where the tools are owner-stamped and the owner can be researched through local newspapers and estate records, it would bring roughly half a million dollars - or more. The Seaton tool chest in the Guildhall museum in England has an insurance value that is considerably higher than half a million (it is a largely unused and largely intact tool chest from 1797).

[Mike Heaney]

David,

Thankyou for those comments- it is something I have thought about. It struck me as interesting that the vast majority of the tools have only one owner's stamp, suggesting they did not go through multiple hands before falling into disrepair. My plan at this stage is to clean and use those tools that are up to the task, without changing them in a way that impacts their nature for a future owner. And I do plan on keeping this chest and its contents together- hopefully at some point down the road, they go to someone else who can look after them for a while and keep them together.
I'm interested that you went for a circa 1870 date- I guess I was thinking somewhere in the last 30 years of the 19th Century, but I'm wondering if you are seeing something that is suggesting that date to you?

best wishes

Mike

[David Keller NC]

Mike - The "circa" date is mainly based on the latest mark you have on the tools (the Auburn Tool Co.). The chest could very well be earlier, as tools were often added as craftsmen needed them and could afford them. I'd say that circa 1870 is the latest the tool box is likely to be.

[Bill Houghton]

Very nice; you've wound up with a lot of tools, many of which will turn out to be useful.

Others have chimed in the tools, and I can't add much there; but I did want to mention that the hook looks from the partial view of it in your photo like a hay hook - whack it into a hay bale and use it to move the bale around. They're most effective in pairs. I never got good enough at it, but I've watched farm kids set the hooks (one on each end), pick up the bale, and load it into a truck faster than typing this sentence took.

[Mike Heaney]

Thought I would add some pics of some of the other more interesting planes.

This one is a moving fillister, with scratch knife and brass depth gauge. About 9" long. I'm not sure the adjustable base is original, may have been replaced at some time?

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[Mike Heaney]

Tongue and Groove plane. Approx 9" long. Looks like it is designed for 1/2" stock- which I think is the version that is harder to find.

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[Mike Heaney]

I'm looking for some help ID'ing some of these things!


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[Mike Heaney]

No backsaws in the chest- which is interesting (or likely that someone already found another home for them?)

A couple of the Saws are Disston for sure- A No 7 and a No 16, etchings are visible on both. Unfortunately, the handles are less than great- the No7 has a plywood handle! and the No17 handle while really nice, has a large crack in it:
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The others I need to de-rust before its possible to see anything- but thought you might have comments based on shape, nibs, handles. One is 25" long, the other 26":

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Considering the overall condition of the saws, I'm surprised that the nibs survived intact!

[george wilson]

The first two pics are saw sets that you can clamp in a vise,or sink into a block of hard wood. You strike he top of the swinging "hammer". The screw on the left side of pic #2 is adjusted to determine how much the saw tooth is bent. The fairly large round object with the 2 ears is tapped back and forth to rest the teeth on to determine how deep you want the teeth to be exposed to bending. I used one of these quite a bit. You can get pretty fast setting saws with them.

The last object is for setting some kind of rivet,or possibly grommet. Can't tell from the rust. Someone else like Harry will recognize it,I'm sure.

[Mike Heaney]

Is having the actual stamps that CB used on his tools- well, I thought it was pretty cool anyway!

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[Chris Vandiver]

The 24" saw(overall length)looks to be a Disston #7 panel saw. How many ppi for that saw?

[Mike Heaney]

7 teeth per inch for the 24" the 26" and the Disston 7. 6 teeth per inch for the Disston 16.

[Mike Heaney]

I wasn't sure what this was, but after looking at a Roy Underhill book at Barnes and Noble today, I think this might be the fence for a panel gauge- what do you think? If so, it would seem a pretty straightforward job to construct a new post and wedge. Any advice/comments gratefully received

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thanks

Mike