Tablesaw accidents question

[David Prince]

I didn't want to get off-track on the recent SS thread and mandates for safety, so I thought I would post a new thread and pose a question.

I personally think the smaller benchtop saws are dangerous.

I personally think that some people are naturally careless.

I personally think that some people are more accident-prone.

I personally think that some people try to use power tools that don't know what they are doing.

I personally think that some people aren't very mechanical and should stay away from any and all tools.

I personally think that some people continue to use dull blades and force wood through it just to "get one more cut out of the blade". (or they don't know they have a dull blade)

I personally think that some people neglect regular maintenance on their tools.

I personally think that some people attempt to make a saw do something it shouldn't (like using a miter gauge and a ripfence at the same time).

Given these opinions, I think there is a need for SS safety features. BUT, if you take away all of the above pre-existing conditions, how many table saw accidents happen to those folks that do not fit into the above catagories?

(Feel free to add observations that I may have missed)

I personally do not feel that I fit into any of the above catagories and want to have a choice whether I chose to purchase a safety feature on my saw or not.

[Rod Sheridan]

Well David, the SS safety feature is a secondary safety system designed to reduce the severity of accidents when the primary systems have failed.

I haven't had an accident however I had a close call a few years ago when I smacked my hand into the overarm blade guard on my saw in a moment of carelessness when I tried to catch a piece that was falling off the saw table.

If I didn't have the overarm guard I would have contacted the blade. SS would have been a great secondary system, no guard/no SS and I would have been a statistic.

I always use guards, I have over 30 years experience in industry and am extremely safety conscious.

I agree that people try to make table saws do things they're not meant to do, such as dado, rebate, tenon etc without suitable guards.

Once people remove the primary safety system ( mechanical guards) on any machine other than a SS, there are no safety systems in place.

Being safety conscious/experienced/knowledgable etc. is no substitute for a safety system, since people do make mistakes, and unplanned occurrences do happen.

It may not have happenned to you yet, and it may never happen, however relying on personal skills exclusively to keep you safe is an approach that stastically leads to failure.

regards, Rod.

[David Prince]

FWW gave a statistic that 31,400 table saw injuries are reported every year. Take out the types of people that I listed and what would the odds be for those of us that are left?

To me, buying a SS is like buying insurance. If I am healthy, don't smoke, eat right, no family history, and exercise regularily, etc. I have a better chance of not having a heart attack. Would I go out and buy extra health insurance policies just in case I have a heart attack?

I am not saying that I "couldn't" be injured on a tablesaw, but think that the chances are minimal.

[Tom Walz]

I have to agree with you that the chances of some people getting hurt are considerably better than for others.

Don't have any problems with your lists but I do have a couple comments.

Every time I've read something about driving or anything similar it shows that the great majority of people think that they're better than average. I would imagine this would hold true for power tools as well.

Over the years it has seemed to me that people are more likely to get hurt doing unfamiliar tasks. We are especially strict when we train a new person on a new task. Even something as simple as a spring cleanup is cause for concern here because people are doing unfamiliar tasks.

In your program, I think you would need to work in some sort of training option.

Tom

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi David, I agree that if you use primary safety equipment the SS is the backup system.

If you don't use the primary system then you have no safety system without SS.

So David, if you always use the primary safety systems then yes I agree, you're buying a second level of insurance.

If you don't always use the primary system then the chances aren't minimal..........regards, Rod.

[Mike Henderson]

FWW gave a statistic that 31,400 table saw injuries are reported every year. Take out the types of people that I listed and what would the odds be for those of us that are left?

To me, buying a SS is like buying insurance. If I am healthy, don't smoke, eat right, no family history, and exercise regularily, etc. I have a better chance of not having a heart attack. Would I go out and buy extra health insurance policies just in case I have a heart attack?
I am not saying that I "couldn't" be injured on a tablesaw, but think that the chances are minimal.
When looking at risk, you have to look at the odds and also look at the consequences if the odds go against you. So for a risk where the consequence is death, you'd want to do everything possible to prevent the consequence.

When you look at a table saw accident, death is certainly possible, but it's more likely you'll have a disability for life as a consequence. How much you want to spend on "insurance" to prevent that is up to you.

Mike

[Ken Fitzgerald]

David,

Unless I have orders from my better half, I won't buy SS for personal reasons.

Buying extra insurance? Often landing on the side of caution pays off, though......it's payed off for me.....I paid a small amount for insurance for 24 years...and it's paying off now.....not heart attack insurance, mind you....though with the family history on the paternal side of my family it might not be a bad idea.

My wife and I just retired and she continues to pay for cancer insurance for us through her former employee......of course, she's an 18 year cancer survivor and we know what it can do and cost.

BTW...I am not nor have I ever been employed by an insurance company. But...I have a good neighbor who is an insurance agent and I elk hunted with another insurance agent with the same company as my neighbor.

[Metod Alif]

As David says, and more: I believe that all tools from the hammers, chisels, planes and up should be made operable only by remote controls, no less than 93" from the operator. But then, somebody is bound to swallow them (the controls), drop them or use them as a hammer - and the vicious cycle will get repeated.
Best wishes,
Metod

[Aaron Kitchell]

This logic is flawed. Purchasing a SS isn't like taking out additional heart attack insurance, it's the difference between having cut rate insurance and quality insurance. To Rod's point above and in keeping with your analogy, having an SS saw would be like eating right your whole life, exercising, getting routine physicals, monitoring cholesterol levels, fat intake, sodium quantities etc, essentially doing all the right things, being educated, understanding how your body works, but still insisting on good health insurance because there are things that come up whether it be a car accident, a fall down the stairs or a health problem. Similarly, you can be completely educated on your tools, maintain the tools, replace blades regularly, take WW classes, read books, and practice the utmost safety, but things happen and having a SS is your high quality insurance and not specialty insurance for one particular issue.

On another note, I've never known someone who says I wish I didn't have insurance but I've known plenty of people who say I wish I did have insurance.
FWW gave a statistic that 31,400 table saw injuries are reported every year. Take out the types of people that I listed and what would the odds be for those of us that are left?

To me, buying a SS is like buying insurance. If I am healthy, don't smoke, eat right, no family history, and exercise regularly, etc. I have a better chance of not having a heart attack. Would I go out and buy extra health insurance policies just in case I have a heart attack?

I am not saying that I "couldn't" be injured on a tablesaw, but think that the chances are minimal.

[David Prince]

I agree that a person should buy insurance. I would be talking about buying additional insurance towards a particular ailment or risk that has a reduced likelihood of happening. If I have a history of traffic accidents, then I should buy extra car insurance. If I have an increased risk of heart attack, then I should up the health insurance or death policy. If I cannot run a tool without hurting myself or have a poor track history of carelessness, personal injury, lack experience or skill, then I should probably purchase all of the available gadgets, safety dodads, guards, and SS technologies.

I also do not religiously use all of my guards, but I always try to use safe practices. (I haven't used a blade guard for about 20 years) I don't want to get off-track with a guard or no-guard thread, but personally feel safer knowing and seeing exactly where the blade is.

I think there is a good chance of getting something flung into my eye, so 99% of the time I wear safety glasses. I don't think I am going to go out and buy extra eye accident insurance because hopefully my safe practice of wearing safety glasses will be enough to offset the risk.

[David Prince]

This logic is flawed. Purchasing a SS isn't like taking out additional heart attack insurance, it's the difference between having cut rate insurance and quality insurance.

I am not saying that you shouldn't purchase a SS technology. My bottom line is that there is (IMHO) a reduced risk involved for many woodworkers that do not fit the profile of the original post. Because of that, I want to have a choice whether or not I purchase a SS technology or not.

[Rod Sheridan]

I also do not religiously use all of my guards, but I always try to use safe practices. (I haven't used a blade guard for about 20 years) I don't want to get off-track with a guard or no-guard thread, but personally feel safer knowing and seeing exactly where the blade is.

.

That's the issue though David, perceiving that the risk is less by not using the guard doesn't make it so, in fact it's the exact opposite.

So you are a person who could benefit greatly by buying the SS technology.

Couple my absolute use of guards with the fact that I now use a Euro slider, and a stock feeder when practicle or required for safety and I wouldn't benefit much from the SS features.

Regards, Rod.

[George Bregar]

I didn't want to get off-track on the recent SS thread and mandates for safety, so I thought I would post a new thread and pose a question.

I personally think the smaller benchtop saws are dangerous.

I personally think that some people are naturally careless.

I personally think that some people are more accident-prone.

I personally think that some people try to use power tools that don't know what they are doing.

I personally think that some people aren't very mechanical and should stay away from any and all tools.

I personally think that some people continue to use dull blades and force wood through it just to "get one more cut out of the blade". (or they don't know they have a dull blade)

I personally think that some people neglect regular maintenance on their tools.

I personally think that some people attempt to make a saw do something it shouldn't (like using a miter gauge and a ripfence at the same time).

Given these opinions, I think there is a need for SS safety features. BUT, if you take away all of the above pre-existing conditions, how many table saw accidents happen to those folks that do not fit into the above catagories? I'm not sure how this thread is anyway different than the recent one, that is now over 100 posts, and all the past SS "Good or bad" threads, but to answer your one and only question: Some. Except with the SawStop. Then the answer is: to this point in regard to being seriously injured by the blade, with or WITHOUT all the pre-existing conditions: [B]None. But then again, that's pretty obvious at this point, right?


(Feel free to add observations that I may have missed)

I personally do not feel that I fit into any of the above catagories and want to have a choice whether I chose to purchase a safety feature on my saw or not. Observation: This really wasn't about "Tablesaw accidents question" at all. It's about "I don't think a SawStop is necessary for me and I shouldn't have to have one." Got it.

[Frank Drew]

how many table saw accidents happen to those folks that do not fit into the above catagories?

Well, some at least.

My first table saw was a Powermatic with a 1" arbor; I bought a blade from a local saw shop and they rebored the arbor hole from 5/8" to 1". The first time I used the blade it started vibrating during a cut, which caused a kick-back that knocked one of my fingers into the blade. Nothing too serious but I did need stitches.

I didn't know at the time, and neither did the saw shop, that any time you change the plate on a saw blade, such as by reboring, you have to retension it, to get it back into balance. The guy at the shop told me that they'd rotated the blade by hand and it had no runout, but of course the true test would have been at working speed, and that was when the harmonics of the out-of-balance blade created problems.

I agree, though, with the general proposition that human error, rather than equipment, is the cause of most accidents.

[Ryan Hellmer]

I don't see the issue with additional safety equipment. Is this a reiteration of the American rugged individualist? Saws would be safer (not free from danger) with the technology, so why shouldn't it be added. Have you ever heard of someone going into a car dealership and asking for the one without seatbelts, or airbags, or ABS, or traction control? Do these add to the cost of all vehicles? Yes. Do they occassionally fail? Yes. Are cars safer (not free from danger) with the technology? Yes. I think all this bantering is pretty silly. The sooner other manufacturers offer the technology the better and the faster pricing will come in line. Until then people will still buy less safe PM's, Uni's, and General's for substantially the same money.

[David Prince]

Observation: This really wasn't about "Tablesaw accidents question" at all. It's about "I don't think a SawStop is necessary for me and I shouldn't have to have one." Got it.

You misunderstand. In english: There are a certain number of tablesaw accidents per year. SS technology is a good thing. If you take away the original posted variables that more than likely lead to tablesaw accidents, then is there less risk involved to those remaining?

I think every shop class should have SS technology. Because people using that tablesaw will more than likely lack skills, experience, knowledge, wisdom, etc.

Any person that thinks there is a perceived risk involved can weigh that risk and decide if they want to purchase the "insurance" of SS technology.

I am just going to make up a statistic for the sake of this thread. Let's say that the rate of tablesaw accidents is 1 in 100 users overall. Now, take away those that have less than 5 years experience and the rate jumps up to 1 in 50. Add in an inadequate saw being asked to do something it probably shouldn't be doing and that rate jumps to 1 in 25. Throw a dull blade or the wrong blade for the job on it and someone forcing a piece of wood through it and you are at 1 in 10. Now say you are "accident prone" and the rate increases to 1 in 5. Add that you are somewhat careless and we are now at 1 in 2. That means every other person that touches a tablesaw gets hurt based on the variables I listed.

Take all of those people out of the equation and the odds should decrease from 1 in 100 overall to lets say 1 in 10,000.

These numbers are hypothetical for the purpose of trying to express a point.

At 1 in 100 that means for every one person that gets hurt, then 99 do not. I would like to think I am one of the 99. I don't see the risk involved with this. I know the blade is dangerous and will do everything in my power to keep my fingers out of it. But to me, I feel that I am the one that is in complete control of my fingers. If my fingers hit the blade it is 100 % me. (unless a plane crashes right into my shop and causes me to react in such a way that I push my hand into the blade in response to the crash) lol

Seatbelts and airbags are different. I cannot control the other drivers that may crash into me. I don't think my saw blade is going to jump out of the saw and chase me down!

I am just saying that I think some people are less likely to need SS technology than others, so why should everyone have to have it when it isn't necessary.

[David Hostetler]

I didn't want to get off-track on the recent SS thread and mandates for safety, so I thought I would post a new thread and pose a question.

I personally think the smaller benchtop saws are dangerous.

I personally think that some people are naturally careless.

I personally think that some people are more accident-prone.

I personally think that some people try to use power tools that don't know what they are doing.

I personally think that some people aren't very mechanical and should stay away from any and all tools.

I personally think that some people continue to use dull blades and force wood through it just to "get one more cut out of the blade". (or they don't know they have a dull blade)

I personally think that some people neglect regular maintenance on their tools.

I personally think that some people attempt to make a saw do something it shouldn't (like using a miter gauge and a ripfence at the same time).

Given these opinions, I think there is a need for SS safety features. BUT, if you take away all of the above pre-existing conditions, how many table saw accidents happen to those folks that do not fit into the above catagories?

(Feel free to add observations that I may have missed)

I personally do not feel that I fit into any of the above catagories and want to have a choice whether I chose to purchase a safety feature on my saw or not.

While I do not want to go into the whole thing about benchtop versus stationary table saws, let me say that when used appropriately, bench top saws can be used safely, with good results. However the remainder of your points are somewhat valid, far too many people try to, say crosscut full sheets of MDF on a bench top table saw, that just won't work safely...

I personally would love to own a SawStop, but it is well out of my budget at this point. Then again, so are all new cabinet saws at this time... That with any luck should change...

How Rod had mentioned that once you remove the primary safety devices on non sawstop saws, you have no safety devices to protect you. Same goes for Sawstop if for example you remove the guard, and turn the blade brake off...

I honestly feel that right about the time somebody invents anything "foolproof" there will be a new and improved fool to figure out how to work around that...

[Rod Sheridan]

I am just saying that I think some people are less likely to need SS technology than others, so why should everyone have to have it when it isn't necessary.

David, we're all in agreement with that statement.

However as a person who doesn't follow prudent safety practices (removing primary safety systems) you're the person who needs it most.

regards, Rod.

[Stephen Cherry]

I have a felder sliding saw- about the same price used as a good sawstop new, much much more robust, and the closest my hand gets to the blade is the off switch. There are many used sliding saws out there; I've seen them from 800 dollars and up. there really is no reason to have your hand near the blade.

[David Prince]

David, we're all in agreement with that statement.

However as a person who doesn't follow prudent safety practices (removing primary safety systems) you're the person who needs it most.

regards, Rod.

This wasn't a to use a guard or not to use a guard question. I think you will find many people in your camp that believe using a guard is the only way to go. I think you will also find that there are people in my camp that would agree that they can be as safe if not safer without the guard.

I feel very safe around my cabinet saw, but don't mistake that with complacent. Statistically I am probably safer with the bladeguard on. If that is the case, then I do lose some of the lower risk that I previously stated. I will accept that level of risk.

An Actuary is an expert in:
Evaluating the likelihood of future events
Designing creative ways to reduce the likelihood of undesirable events
Decreasing the impact of undesirable events that do occur.

In analyzing the risk an Actuary might think of the possibility of offsetting one risk with another. Under certain circumstances, two harmful events might possess the characteristic that when the likelihood of one goes up, the likelihood of the other goes down. Using a tablesaw is risky. Taking off the bladeguard could increase one person's risk, but could then reduce anothers.

I am not an Actuary, but an Actuary could probably determine a risk number for tablesaw injuries.

I like to think that I decrease my risk of getting injured based on using safe practices and avoiding some of the pitfalls I previously posted. Not everyone needs SS technology, but some definitely do!

[John Coloccia]

Do you want our permission to not buy a SawStop? Permission granted!

As long as they're not working for me, I suspect that most of us wouldn't care if someone clamped a circular saw upside down to a microwave cart and ripped on that. :D

[Matt Kestenbaum]

All this comparison of odds calculation, risk assessment and the like are making me think of a great quote from the movie Fight Club "On a large enough time line, the survival rate for everyone will drop to zero."

There is no such thing as too much care to protect my person from mutilation.

When I was in business school they used dice games to teach probability. It was amusing to see a grad student who, despite the mathematics being taught, would deny that each roll is a independent event.

I bought my Sawstop because there is no such thing as too many layers of safety device. I have lots of insurance, airbags in the car, modern headrests, ABS breaks, traction control, shoulder belts, high-end tires, crumple zoned frame, and a few other safety devises...and I still drive with extreme caution under the assumption that behind the wheel of every 18 wheeler I see driving too fast is some meth addict who hasn't slept in 36 hours.

[George Bregar]

You misunderstand...I am just saying that I think some people are less likely to need SS technology than others, so why should everyone have to have it when it isn't necessary. I said you were saying: "I don't think a SawStop is necessary for me and I shouldn't have to have one."

I understood perfectly.

[johnny means]

how many table saw accidents happen to those folks that do not fit into the above catagories?


MOST

The biggest predictor of accidental injury on a table saw is actually time spent using one. Being a professional user is actually more dangerous than being a weekend donkey. You will find more old timer type master craftsman with missing digits than foolish ill informed newbies. The odds of hurting oneself on a table saw due to carelessness are still quite slim. The odds of
slipping up once in thousands of hours of any activity are quite good. Much like the odds of a patrolman dying in a car accident are much higher than mine, but I'm sure the majority of them are more capable drivers than I am. Thus the "If your careful" argument does not hold water. A better argument against the need for the additional insurance of a SS would be that "I don't use my saw that much."

[George Bregar]

MOST

The biggest predictor of accidental injury on a table saw is actually time spent using one. Being a professional user is actually more dangerous than being a weekend donkey. You will find more old timer type master craftsman with missing digits than foolish ill informed newbies. The odds of hurting oneself on a table saw due to carelessness are still quite slim. The odds of
slipping up once in thousands of hours of any activity are quite good. Much like the odds of a patrolman dying in a car accident are much higher than mine, but I'm sure the majority of them are more capable drivers than I am. Thus the "If your careful" argument does not hold water. A better argument against the need for the additional insurance of a SS would be that "I don't use my saw that much." Not true according to the CPSC "The vast majority, 95% of table saw accidents happen in the home, not at work."

[Rod Sheridan]

David, no matter how many people are in the camp that think they can be safer without a proper guard, they're wrong.

You're not safer without a motorcycle helmet, or without airbags or seatbelts when driving.

If you were safer with skilled operators and no guards, that's what we would use because we want to minimise injuries and maximise profits.

I have never performed an operation analysis that indicated that experience trumped engineering controls where safety was concerned with a machine.....Rod.

P.S. If you do have a guard that's dangerous to use for a particular operation then you use a different guard. I have 3 different guards for my shaper at home, one for curved pieces, one for straight, and one for tenoning. Just like you don't use the same cutter for all operations, you need different guards for different operations.

I'm sure you've run across table saw guards that are difficult to live with, the trick is to replace them with something you'll use, and will provide adequate safety.

[paul dyar]

I agree 100% with David.
Paul

[Rod Sheridan]

Not true according to the CPSC "The vast majority, 95% of table saw accidents happen in the home, not at work."

George, that makes sense, at work you get fired for taking the guards off, at home you do what you want........Rod.

[hank dekeyser]

I would agree that MANY people have NO business owning or operating machinery of any type, be it a table saw or other. Take a look around at all the people driving that - you get the idea. Just because you can, doesnt mean that you should. Over half the people in the world are below average - at anything they do - period. I will not now or ever own a SS or anything else similar. Having worked in 4 cabinet shops in my lifetime , I have only ONCE known of a TS related accident (twice actually, I knicked a finger once) and both times it was from "reaching around the blade" and we both give each other grief about it to this day. And we both say the same thing "Man that was dumb, I should know better"

IF all the factory supplied safety features are left intact a TS is relatively safe for the operator. IF the operator leaves them on AND if the operator has the knowledge to operate the saw.

I'm sure this isn't over

[George Bregar]

George, that makes sense, at work you get fired for taking the guards off, at home you do what you want........Rod. I have no evidence, but I really think that the majority of table saw injuries are neither professionals nor serious hobbyists, but DIY types. There are just so many really cheap contractor and benchtop saws sold...you know it's not serious hobbyists or pros buying them. I think the only reason there aren't more injuries is that these saws get little use and that the operators are afraid enough to take extreme caution. Also probably motivated because their wives say "you're gonna lose a finger" and they want to hear the "I told you so's" ;)

[johnny means]

Not true according to the CPSC "The vast majority, 95% of table saw accidents happen in the home, not at work."

That study doesn't make clear that "home saws" collectively log much more time than those in occupational settings. Also, it doesn't track the cumulative risk of the typical professional over 40 or so years of exposure. What would need to be compared is 10,000 professionals to 10,000 weekend warriors, in order to understand the risk of cumulative exposure. Your also more like to find HIV in a sample 10,000 soccer moms than you are 10 prostitutes, but I think we all know who would have the worst odds individually.

[Ted Wong]

I think you are right in everyone of the points you listed. I work in an educational shop setting and SS has been a great stress reliever when working with newbies..

[George Bregar]

That study doesn't make clear that "home saws" collectively log much more time than those in occupational settings. Also, it doesn't track the cumulative risk of the typical professional over 40 or so years of exposure. What would need to be compared is 10,000 professionals to 10,000 weekend warriors, in order to understand the risk of cumulative exposure. Your also more like to find HIV in a sample 10,000 soccer moms than you are 10 prostitutes, but I think we all know who would have the worst odds individually. The question was "how many" of the accidents johnny. Not per hours of use. And most are at home. 95%.

[johnny means]

The question was "how many" of the accidents johnny. Not per hours of use. And most are at home. 95%.

Actually, the question was how many accidents would not occur if you took bad practices out of the equation. My argument was that exposure and not bad practices is the primary risk determiner. The OP was inferring that good habits made him considerably less likely to have an accident. I was inferring that continued use of dangerous machines , using sound technique and well maintained equipment, is a more substantial risk determiner.

[George Bregar]

Actually, the question was how many accidents would not occur if you took bad practices out of the equation. My argument was that exposure and not bad practices is the primary risk determiner. The OP was inferring that good habits made him considerably less likely to have an accident. I was inferring that continued use of dangerous machines , using sound technique and well maintained equipment, is a more substantial risk determiner. I agree with your assumptions johnny. To me it's moot. The OP's premise is silly. You can't even get a consensus on a WW forum of what's "best practice"...and he wants to exclude himself because he's safe, smart, blah blah blah. Who is going to measure THAT? SawStops are safer than traditional tablesaws in regard to cut injuries. Anyone that disagrees is an idiot. Does that mean everyone should stop woodworking until they get one? No. Should the technology be mandated? That's really not debate for a WW forum...better to think about who you are voting into political office. I think eventually all higher end manufacturers will have it without mandate. The cheapo saws will probably require an edict.

[shane lyall]

Over the years it has seemed to me that people are more likely to get hurt doing unfamiliar tasks.

Tom
Sorry but I must respectfully disagree to some extent. In the mining industry ,where I have worked as an electrical superviser for over 20 years, company studys show the roof bolter has the highest injury rate most of the time. They install some times 150 bolts a shift, 5-6 shifts a week for years. Most times it's people that become board with the job and lose focus. Most "red hats" as new miners are called around hear, are so scared the first month underground they are safer than us 'ol timers. I'm living proof. After 5 surgerys and 3 years I'm still not 100% after a rock fall I SHOULD have never been under. Again, my falt, but I thought I had "been there done that." I had but with a different result this time. Didn't mean to hijack but wanted to give an example.

[Peter Quinn]

Johnny, I do not agree with your assessment about the risk to professional wood workers at all, and I'm curious if you have any sort of scientific evidence at all to back this up. I am a professional wood worker, I spend at least 40 hours per week using machinery including a Table saw, though never 40 hours using a TS in one week. I work for a business as an employee and have a small shop in my home from which I do side jobs. The combined experience of the staff of 9 where I work is over over 250 years, and everyone except one can count to ten with out taking off a shoe. THe one guy missing several digits did so on a shaper doing curved work cowboy style, no guards, no jigs, no hold downs, a weak lead in. Thats code for MORON. He did not injure himself at work, but oddly, at home in his own shop. Twice! Go figure.

There is a safety culture taught where I work. Never get rammy, don't work exhausted or otherwise compromised, don't make the most dangerous cut you can think of two minutes to close just to have it done, check your set ups at least twice, take a breath, keep your eyes open. Focus. Focus. Did i mention focus? The list is much longer than I can mention here, but you get the idea. Lots of people are watching. You get caught doing something stupid, they shut you down and take off a piece of your butt. DAMHIK. There is a big sticker on one guys tool cabinet from Honda that says simply "STUPID HURTS". Applies to wood working as well as motorcycles. A guy at home working in his garage trying to learnt the craft in his spare time does not generally have the benefit of a professional foreman breaking his stones in the interest of safety.

I've seen plenty of pros that are missing digits, almost all of them are exactly the type of guys you would expect to be missing digits, the real surprise is often that they have any left at all. I always ask "How did you do that" and invariably the answer is some variation of "I got stupid, I got hurt". Reaching over the blade to retrieve an off cut seems to be a big one. Who the blank bleeping bloop blank thinks that is a good idea? Really? Reaching over a spinning wheel of pain loaded with carbide razors to save a few seconds and retrieve a work piece, because that long walk around the saw is just too damn far? File that move under stupid. The second biggest winner is "It started to kick back and my hands followed it in", which is code for "The piece was way too small to be doing what I was doing", refer back to stupid hurts hypothesis for details. My personal favorite? "I don't remember, I was drinking a lot at that time in my life." Sad, but avoidable.

Anyway, based on large volumes of anecdotal evidence and my profound belief in the power of the human will, I would argue that crippling injury is not the inevitable consequence of working wood professionally. I would further argue that it is possibly to get less likely to injure your self over time if you proceed with an interest in safety and are diligent about protecting yourself. I would argue that there is a rather strong correlation between stupid and injured, almost as strong as the one between ignorant and injured. When I read the details of the TS injury case that made all the news, I wanted to slap the operator, his boss, the jury and myself for even reading the details.

For the record, I would have a SS in my shop if it were available when I made my cabinet saw purchase, but it was not. Given the slim price difference, why not? Now I have a depreciated PM66 built to last a lifetime and my only safety device is my skill and focus. Scary. It would be nice to see a requirement of safety devices on all professional wood working shops that was enforced, because stupid people deserve to have fingers too.:D Requiring working guards, sliding tables, good hoods with DC, braking technology on all tools spinning cutters would be a great idea, down right European. This would push many manufacturers out of the table saw business, which is a good thing IMO, and force many wood workers to change their methods, as a cabinet saw in the $3k range might be out of their reach. Forcing people out of wood working is not IMO a good thing, so that part bothers be.

[Tom Hammond]

I personally think that some people...
I personally think that some people...
I personally think that some people...
I personally think that some people...
I personally think that some people...
I personally think that some people...
I personally think that some people...

how many table saw accidents happen to those folks that do not fit into the above catagories?
I personally do not feel that I fit into any of the above catagories and want to have a choice whether I chose to purchase a safety feature on my saw or not.

Hubris is a very dangerous thing. Case in point:

181739

Get in a hurry...
Think about your next measurement...
Worry about being late for dinner...
Work while getting tired...
Name any other of a miilion reasons...

It's not "some people." It's EVERYONE... including people who "do not feel I fit into any of the above categories (sic)." Over 35 years in the shop... and 1 second later, a bifurcated thumb and 18 stitches to save it... and six weeks unable to work. Plus, permanent nerve damage and an inability to pick up small objects with my thumb and index finger. And, no, I don't fit into any of those categories.

[Jim Summers]

While I agree that some people are more accident prone, I feel that no one is immune to them. Being in a hurry( or in golf terms doing a "whatever" ) and not being mentally in the same place as you are working( a.k.a. thinking about something else ) can cause anyone to have an accident.

[Don Bullock]

David,

Unless I have orders from my better half, I won't buy SS for personal reasons.
....

That's exactly why I have a SawStop ICS. When I was in the market for a new table saw I showed my better half the SawStop videos. She found the funds for me to purchase one because she didn't want me to be a statistic. For her it was more than worth the money to have a "safer" saw for me to work on. I saw a sign along the highway the other day stating that a certain number of men die every year due to stubbornness. I know they were referring to prostate cancer and the fact that many men won't get tested for it, but the sign is still relevant here as well. I wonder how many fingers, etc. have been lost to stubbornness. Hmmmmm.

[mreza Salav]

I have yet to see a human being who never makes a mistake.

[David Prince]

To me it's moot. The OP's premise is silly.

I re-read my original post for clarity and I think you are missing the point. To all: I am not saying that I am without error or could never be injured. That is a definitely a possibility with anyone and anything.

A few key points are:

1. I think there are some people that are merely LESS likely to be a statistic. (I just pointed out a few opinions of common mistakes and maybe stereotypical profiles)

2. I do not have a problem with SS technology. Maybe I will have one someday, but right now it isn't on my list and I just want to have a choice in the matter rather than regulations that require it. I have not personally used one, but from what I have read, the quality is good. If I bought one, I would probably judge it more based on quality with a side benefit of safety.

3. Best practice could be a collection of avoiding "what not to do when running power tools"! This in turn would make it LESS LIKELY that you would be a statistic.

4. I am not excluding myself from the statistics because I am safe, smart, blah blah blah..., but I am saying that maybe I could be LESS LIKELY than some because of using safe, smart, blah blah blah. (Have you seen the video of the guy that cuts out patterns with his bandsaw with amazing speed? To me that is some skill, but also considered careless because there is too much risk involved) (If I did that with cuts, I could increase the likelihood that I could injure myself and it doesn't matter if I had done it hundreds of times.)

We have all seen people take careless risks. We all know people who seem more accident prone. We all know people that are generally careless like a bull in a china shop. We all know people that lack skills and training. We all know people that don't always use tools correctly.

To reiterate: MY OPINION IS THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE MORE LIKELY TO INJURE THEMSELVES ON A TABLESAW THAN OTHERS!

[Mike Henderson]

To reiterate: MY OPINION IS THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE MORE LIKELY TO INJURE THEMSELVES ON A TABLESAW THAN OTHERS!
Hubris usually leads to an accident.

Mike

[Joe Jensen]

I didn't want to get off-track on the recent SS thread and mandates for safety, so I thought I would post a new thread and pose a question.

I personally think the smaller benchtop saws are dangerous.

I personally think that some people are naturally careless.

I personally think that some people are more accident-prone.

I personally think that some people try to use power tools that don't know what they are doing.

I personally think that some people aren't very mechanical and should stay away from any and all tools.

I personally think that some people continue to use dull blades and force wood through it just to "get one more cut out of the blade". (or they don't know they have a dull blade)

I personally think that some people neglect regular maintenance on their tools.

I personally think that some people attempt to make a saw do something it shouldn't (like using a miter gauge and a ripfence at the same time).

Given these opinions, I think there is a need for SS safety features. BUT, if you take away all of the above pre-existing conditions, how many table saw accidents happen to those folks that do not fit into the above catagories?

(Feel free to add observations that I may have missed)

I personally do not feel that I fit into any of the above catagories and want to have a choice whether I chose to purchase a safety feature on my saw or not.

Are you seriously considering a SS or just stirring the pot?

Surely you only carry collision insurance as you would never have an auto accident that was your fault, because you never drive when tired, carelessly, etc. This stuff hasn't been hashed too much over the past 5 years? Really?

[Joe Jensen]

To reiterate: MY OPINION IS THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE MORE LIKELY TO INJURE THEMSELVES ON A TABLESAW THAN OTHERS!

Do you really think anyone could argue with that statement? This is why I doubt this post is more than stirring the old SS pot.

[Nick Christensen]

Just a few points,

1. Have you ever heard anyone who owns a Saw Stop complain? No for a few reasons, they are better than any cabinet, non sliding table saw on the market, brake or no.

2. I think the consensus of professional woodworkers is that it is not if an accident will happen but when. Go to some of the professional woodworking forums and you will see. I have read some of the posts here where there are "professionals" who have said that they have only seen one or two accidents in their time one of which was his. Hmm I wonder why it happened.

3. Safety innovations happen. If you don't like it you can just take the doors off your bandsaw, get rid of your dust collection, take the top off of your planer, take the guard off your jointer and cut the grounding plugs off your tools the list could go on.

4. Contrary to apparently popular belief Delta, Powermatic, General etc. couldn't care less about your fingers, they just want your money. I think this is best evidenced by the fact that they refused to apply this technology to their saws to begin with which is why we have the Saw Stop now.

5. I don't think the government will have to mandate this technology. The free market will do that all by itself. With the SS being the number one selling table saw, it doesn't take many lost sales to get the picture. After all they only want your money.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I personally think

Y'all are missing a huge point...
It boils down to it doesn't matter what you think. & I say that as a collective you to everyone here that owns and uses power tools.

It's all about how a person with zero experience with and exposure to power equipment feels about it.

I mean, after all, SS technology can be had by just buying a few inexpensive parts from Radio Shack right?

[David Prince]

Do you really think anyone could argue with that statement? This is why I doubt this post is more than stirring the old SS pot.

I am not sure what the difficulty is with the question. :confused: It seems that on-line forums are so bent on defending a SS position or criticizing the need that they cannot see past the argument. The minute you say SS in a post the claws come out like a cat fight! Why so defensive???

Pretend there was no such thing as SS technology and re-read the original post. The question is "How many tablesaw accidents happen to those that do not fit in the above catagories" from the OP.

My opinion is that some people are more likely to injure themselves on a tablesaw than others! TRUE OR FALSE???

Forget about SS and think. If I wanted to stir the pot, I would come out insulting SS. I don't have a problem with SS. It just isn't on my list at this time.

I can see why many SS posts don't last too long.

[Mike Wilkins]

The safety features is not the primary reason I purchased a sliding table saw in 2009, but it is a much safer saw than my old Unisaw. I now use a riving knife all the time, there is an overhead guard with dust collection built in, and 99% of every cutting operation does not allow my digits anywhere near the spinning blade. I still beleive the best safety feature is the one between the ears.
Stay safe out there guys (and gals).

[Steve H Graham]

I got a question. Someone here said kickback knocked his finger into a table saw blade. I can't figure out how this could happen, since kickback pushes things away from blades. Can someone explain? It sounds like one of those counterintuitive safety things that could bite me in the rear end if I don't see it coming.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks......let's tone it down please.

[Mike Barney Sr]

At work there is a sign (I don't have a picture of it nor could I find it on the web) of a profile of a head with the brain outlined in the skull. There is an arrow pointing to the brain with the caption, "Safety starts here". Enough said.

[Neal Clayton]

in ~18 years, i have been hit by two kickback'd boards. that's it. thankfully those were all pretty small and didn't do any real damage.

never come close to cutting myself on the blade.

i've never used a saw with any type of blade guard or splitter/knife. always owned and used old table saws.

/shrug

[Chip Lindley]

Are you seriously considering a SS or just stirring the pot?

Surely you only carry collision insurance as you would never have an auto accident that was your fault, because you never drive when tired, carelessly, etc. This stuff hasn't been hashed too much over the past 5 years? Really?

Um...Joe, you got that backwards. One MUST carry liability insurance. (that protects the other guy) Carrying collision insurance to protect you and your vehicle is entirely elective--unless you are financing your vehicle. Then collision ins. is made manditory by the lein holder.

More Hash:

Dr. Steven Gass of SawStop has planted a seed; almost the same seed Steven Spielberg planted with the movie Jaws--arguably, a predominately irrational fear of the use of a table saw! Dr. Gass may be applauded by some for positioning himself as the only source for table saw safety technology, and for his very savvy marketing techniques. But I see a monopoly, and fear tactics. I wish NO participation in either one.

I am not so arrogant as to think I am immune to accident or injury; I have had my share (non-woodworking). Perhaps because I have survived much more than the nip of my fingertip, I do not waste any time obsessing over the possibility. Paranoia and self-doubt promote a nervous, unsure attitude in the shop. A woodworker frightened of his machines is like a rider scared of his horse. If a horseman gets thrown, the best thing he can do is get right back on! These so frightened, can be added to the list of people who have no business using a table saw! I USE my table saw; It does not USE ME!

As a retired Baby Boomer, I am thankful I still have the right to choose! I grew up, lived, and worked in a more "fly by the seat of your pants" world than younger generations. I have a different mindset than many younger do. Some of us who survive long enough develop a 6th Sense --called Common!

[John Coloccia]

Um...Joe, you got that backwards. One MUST carry liability insurance. (that protects the other guy) Carrying collision insurance to protect you and your vehicle is entirely elective--unless you are financing your vehicle. Then collision ins. is made manditory by the lein holder.

More Hash:

Dr. Steven Gass of SawStop has planted a seed; almost the same seed Steven Spielberg planted with the movie Jaws--arguably, a predominately irrational fear of the use of a table saw! Dr. Gass may be applauded by some for positioning himself as the only source for table saw safety technology, and for his very savvy marketing techniques. But I see a monopoly, and fear tactics. I wish NO participation in either one.

I am not so arrogant as to think I am immune to accident or injury; I have had my share (non-woodworking). Perhaps because I have survived much more than the nip of my fingertip, I do not waste any time obsessing over the possibility. Paranoia and self-doubt promote a nervous, unsure attitude in the shop. A woodworker frightened of his machines is like a rider scared of his horse. If a horseman gets thrown, the best thing he can do is get right back on! These so frightened, can be added to the list of people who have no business using a table saw! I USE my table saw; It does not USE ME!

As a retired Baby Boomer, I am thankful I still have the right to choose! I grew up, lived, and worked in a more "fly by the seat of your pants" world than younger generations. I have a different mindset than many younger do. Some of us who survive long enough develop a 6th Sense --called Common!

My common sense told me that SS was a good idea.

:::shrug:::

This is the inevitable death of nearly all SS threads. I appreciate that you think you understand the psyche of how we decided to purchase our tools, and that we operate our shops in a constant state of fear. I must tell you, though, that I believe you'll find that you probably spend more time thinking about the SS than any of us do. To me, it's another tool in a working shop. I think it's telling that so many SS threads are started by people who don't own a SS, and who have negative opinions of that table saw. I'm having a hard time thinking of another tool like that.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Risk = likelihood x impact

I own a sawstop and I agree with the OP. Brake or no brake, you're safer if you follow basic safety procedures (blade guard, push sticks, standing out of the way of the path of the workpiece, tuning up your saw). In other words, proper safety procedures and better operator training and experience reduce the likelihood of an accident.

Sawstop mostly reduces the IMPACT of flesh-on-blade accidents, not the likelihood of an accident occuring. You're just as likely to have your finger touch the blade on a SS as you are with an otherwise identical saw.

One interesting thing I read in the post on Popular WW'ing was the suggestion that many accidents occur as the result of over-confidence... meaning, people who have inaccurate perception of risk are more likely to end up cutting their fingers off. To the OP- I would argue that you might have an inaccurate perception of the risk when you take your blade guard off. But like you said, that's not an argument for this thread.

[Chris Padilla]

Dr. Steven Gass of SawStop has planted a seed; almost the same seed Steven Spielberg planted with the movie Jaws--arguably, a predominately irrational fear of the use of a table saw! Dr. Gass may be applauded by some for positioning himself as the only source for table saw safety technology, and for his very savvy marketing techniques. But I see a monopoly, and fear tactics. I wish NO participation in either one.

Fear can be healthy. I know I'm scared to death of that blade every time I turn it on so I always double-check things before doing so and pause/hesitate just a bit more to make sure all my ducks are lined up.

[mreza Salav]

My common sense told me that SS was a good idea.

:::shrug:::

This is the inevitable death of nearly all SS threads. I appreciate that you think you understand the psyche of how we decided to purchase our tools, and that we operate our shops in a constant state of fear. I must tell you, though, that I believe you'll find that you probably spend more time thinking about the SS than any of us do. To me, it's another tool in a working shop. I think it's telling that so many SS threads are started by people who don't own a SS, and who have negative opinions of that table saw. I'm having a hard time thinking of another tool like that.

Well said John. Well said!

[John Grossi]

Chip, what you said about the SS CEO planting a seed and putting fear in us is exactly what I have been thinking about. The good side is I have retuned my Grizzley 1023, cleaned it, waxed the table, soaked my blade in cleaner. It is good as new. Problem is my confidence has been dinged. That is not good. I will get it back. Funny thing, I spent 13 years as a machinest, working on lathes, milling machines, bandsaws, grinders, etc. I was on the job for only a few days as an apprentice when I asked my journeyman what the most dangerous machine was in the shop. He walked me over to a little disc sander on a stand and said there it is. He said other tradesmen would walk in the shop to use it and keep their gloves on. Not good. He said people would take that machine for granted and that was their mistake. I learned from that and take no machine for granted. They are all dangerous. One day I may end up with a SS, but what if I am using my router table with a huge raised panel cutter spinning in the breeze. That SS will not help me. Let us continue in our great hobby. Let us work as safely as possible.

[Glenn Vaughn]

What many seem to forget is that tools are designed to perfprm one or more functions. They do the functions in the same way everytime they are turned on (unless a defect occurs). However there is one tool we use that does not adhere to this; the grey lump in our heads. The ability of the brain to function is affected by many factors; fatigue, health, age, distraction etc.

When the brain malfunctions we do not always realize it has happened. It is quite common for someone who is impaired (for what ever reason) to not realize that they are impaired. One extreme example is impairment caused by alcohol; how often have you seen someone who is obviously impaired yet they insist they are functioning perfectly. It is fine to say that you will not operate tools unless you are 100% mentally. The truth is that if you are not 100%, you may either not realize your condition or forget your resolve. Accidents happen whether caused by a lapse of judgement or by an external cause. Nobody is exempt from this fact - if they were, they woud never stub their toe or get a scratch or cut.

All accidents could have been avoided if the proper precautions were taken by all involved parties.

Percentages give us false confidence. (the following numbers are made up) If there are 30 million tool users and 1/10 of 1% have accidents with them that makes us feel pretty safe since it is 1000 to 1 against us having an accident. The truth is that that would equate to 30,000 accidents a year. As long as accidents can happen we are not 100% safe. Having safe guards to help protect oneself makes sense whether it be a SS or other improved safety measures is moot. The SS is not an accident preventer; it is an injury reducer. I am 69 yeears old and am smart enough to know I have times when I do not think as clearly as I would like. I catch myself doing things that are not as smart as I am. I have the SS and am comfortable knowing that it will give me some protection if I do something stupid.

Gass trying to get the technology mandated does not bother me as much as it does some others. Even if the technology had been mandated, nobody would have been forced to buy the technology. We are financially affected by mandates in many things we do: I just had a 240V line run 70 feet in the house at a cost of $525. Much of the cost was because of the current building codes. What I had wanted was a breaker box on the garage end of an existing 240v circuit. It turned out the 30+ year old circuit did not conform to the current code and had to be replaced. It did not matter that it has been working fine for over 30 years - code is code. We had a similar situation with our previous home (a 100 year old victoria) that had knob and tube wiring. We wanted to upgrade from fuses to circuit breakers and were told we would have to completely re-wire the house or nothing could be done.

One last point: The numbers given by the CPSC for tool accidents is just the tip of the iceberg. Only reported accidents are counted - accidents that do not require a tip to the hospital or the involvement of an insurance company do not count. I am sure many of us have had minor injuries from tools and have not needed (or wantd) to report them.

[Chris Padilla]

I'm having a hard time thinking of another tool like that.

Festool :)

[John Coloccia]

Festool :)

touché

:)

[michael osadchuk]

I could be mistaken, but I think the discussion on the safety merits of Sawstop technology has 'evolved' over the past five years.

Five years ago, there was a healthy minority of people in these discussions who argued that such a technology 'would lull people into carelessness' and therefore possibly be hazard. I'm not reading that argument these days.

I believe that original poster also is saying, in his later postings, that SawStop technology would further increase safety even for those who meet his posted conditions. But in his original post I got the "sense" that meeting his posted conditions was "sufficient" for him in his personal risk assessment.

So I think discussions about Sawstop are about related matters.......such a technology being made compulsory at some point in the future, cost, etc.

Personally I am have the same opinion as the person who said that if they were equipping their shop from scratch again and the cost of the new technology was incremental, I would opt for it.

And with respect to the original poster's conditions....... well, it may not be a plane that crashes into your shop that startles you into an hand/blade collusion, probably something much more pedestrian that none of us would predict but after it happens, would say, "yeah, that was not out of this world"........ the other circumstance that can happen, and presumeably is not "natural carelessness" is momentarily inattention or lack of conscious focus; have you ever locked yourself out of your house or car, walked out the door with the wrong key, book, etc. and that kind of stuff happens as we get older and presumeably wiser.....I had such an incident with my General 15" bandsaw a couple of years ago; after doing a single test cut on the machine after adjusting the ball-bearing blade guides and the table tilt, I went to turn off the machine, and instead of reaching down to the on/off swith which is on the base of the machine I reached into the area just below the table .....you wouldn't notice the slight deformity in the tip of my right finger where the blade went thru two-thirds of the bone, touch sensitivity has almost completely returned and thank god for public health insurance in Canada; I wasn't tired at the time, I thought I was focussed but as I reconstruct the incident, it seems apparent that a piece of my mind got entrained by my earlier attention to the area of the bandsaw just under the table; today I do not rely solely on 'having learnt my lesson'; I have installed an flexible but strong flap of leather that will stop my hand from reaching 'unconsciously' into that area.... another addition of 'passive' safety equipment to add to my 'careful nature' (smiley)....

good luck and safe working,

michael


good luck

[ian maybury]

I can't argue with a feature that delivers safety in a practicable manner - I managed to nick the tip of a finger on a saw while clearing away a piece of scrap once, and while the damage was minimal at little more than a scratch it was enough to teach me a nice little lesson. I went for a Hammer slider.

What bothers me enormously though is what happens when so called 'expert' authority and powerful vested interests get involved in the picture - working alone has some advantages I guess.

They often are not very expert, nor very practical - and are frequently driven by the need to sell services or equipment, or the simple objective of minimisation of cost. Others are hell bent (ultimately for psychological reasons) on retaining control over others.

Which straight away (never mind the protestations to the opposite effect) means that worker/operator safety gets pushed way down the priority list.

A few have described the futility of treating grown men like kids on the other thread. Yes, the psychology of the stripping away of self responsibility from people at work, and the authoritarian enforcement of rule based approaches is all wrong.

Authoritarian (rather than shared/co-operative and educational) approaches involving minimal input from those subject to that authority inevitably generate resistance. You can certainly try to 'beat' this resistance out of people, but then they switch off.

Keep telling somebody their task is just to do as they are told and then they will be safe, then it's fairly inevitable that (a) they stop thinking very much about safety, and (b) they will seek to transfer the blame to somebody else if they get injured.

Then factor in the legal, safety and other management and regulatory systems (all highly authoritarian vested interests), and the daft legal, procedural and other perspectives and attitudes that years of machination by these interests (which have included the reduction of the worker to a designated intelligence free zone) have created. (the catch is that you have of course got to give workers enough authority and support to exercise it if you give them responsibility)

Next thing you end up with the lunatic 'I took the guard off, disconnected the safety system, removed the fence and switched the saw on with my foot while scratching my a** with my hand and holding the work in my mouth and now I'm suing for damages' scenario which we so often see play out.

Funny isn't it how there's no such thing as a genuine accident anymore - investigations so often grind down to a witch hunt to decide who was to blame. Which can be anybody except the guy running the machine. Which in one way is fair enough since his opinion seemingly doesn't count for much in many cases anyway. Seen more holistically it creates all sorts of ass covering (but not safety oriented) distortions in people's thinking.

Did I mention the misuse of power by the media too? The victim is again safety when whole sections of the population are fed a hyped and usually inaccurate version of a situation or risk.

All of which scares the hell out of employers and equipment manufacturers, who become even more authoritarian and bureaucratic - with the result that workers become less safe, overheads get greater and work less efficient. So there's even more pressure for output while paying some sort of lip service to compliance. And so the dance goes on.

The strangest bit of all is that when push comes to shove you don't meet too many people all that interested in cutting their hands off. You don't meet too many who truth be told would defend many of the riskier work practices they get involved in either. But yet they routinely do both.

Wonder why??? Could it possibly be lots to do with the way the 'safety industry' works?

I'm of course being a little tongue in cheek here, and I'm sure there are people in the safety industry who really care - but this is far closer to the truth of what goes on than most would care to admit.


ian

[Bill ThompsonNM]

Okay, I finally sat down and read this compendium on SS, etc. One problem, I think in the proposed CPSC regulation (well proposed by SS) is it over specifies the solution. If you want to stop saw amputations of digits, a regulation should just specify that the saw should have safety mechanisms to prevent amputation of digits. For example, a slider might just as well qualify if it keeps the users hands away from the blade. Or perhaps a saw with a stock feeder, and a blade guard or controls that require two hands on an on switch 4 feet from the blade.. : )

Just as in software engineering.. my former career.. if you specify too much too early, you may create a very limited and not very useful solution. Better to specify the goal and let every manufacturer figure out their own way to meet it. As proposed, for example, sliders might be required to have the same technology even though its unlikely to ever be needed.

[Chris Fournier]

I am not interested in the "Saw Stop insurance program".

I would be interested in "Stupid Stop" technology. It would be transferable to all daily operations and be an asset to my longevity which would likely be an end run about Darwin's ideas about my longevity.

I wear a helmet when I ride my non ABS equipped, non-traction controlled motorbikes (mostly on the race track). I am not cavalier or devil may care, I like safety and wish to remain physically unmaimed as much as the next guy.

If you have bought a machine with a safety device that provides you a "Get out of Jail Free Card" when you put your hand into the blade, I think that you really need to assess what constitutes safety. I am not saying that you are not a safe (or thoughtful) person, just that you are not really any safer in the big scheme of things. The SS limits the consequence of "unwanted intersection". Even as a professional woodworker, unwanted intersection is all about you. You are safe only if you are aware of this and conduct yourself in a manner that avoids said intersection!

All of this being said, a sliding table saw will not "misfire" and does not require your appendages to be anywhere near the cutting edge. It also has monster capacity and offers ease of use. This is the way forward. (Space, budget, individual application notwithstanding! Ha!)

[hank dekeyser]

Just a few points,

1. Have you ever heard anyone who owns a Saw Stop complain? No for a few reasons, they are better than any cabinet, non sliding table saw on the market, brake or no.

2. I think the consensus of professional woodworkers is that it is not if an accident will happen but when. Go to some of the professional woodworking forums and you will see. I have read some of the posts here where there are "professionals" who have said that they have only seen one or two accidents in their time one of which was his. Hmm I wonder why it happened.

3. Safety innovations happen. If you don't like it you can just take the doors off your bandsaw, get rid of your dust collection, take the top off of your planer, take the guard off your jointer and cut the grounding plugs off your tools the list could go on.

4. Contrary to apparently popular belief Delta, Powermatic, General etc. couldn't care less about your fingers, they just want your money. I think this is best evidenced by the fact that they refused to apply this technology to their saws to begin with which is why we have the Saw Stop now.

5. I don't think the government will have to mandate this technology. The free market will do that all by itself. With the SS being the number one selling table saw, it doesn't take many lost sales to get the picture. After all they only want your money.



1:) If I just spent the extra money on a SawStop, and had a complaint- I would keep my mouth shut (enbarrassed from blowing money I could have spent elsewhere ?) I have a 50 + year old Uni-Saw, my only complaint is that I don't have 2 of them.

2:) You read my post - it happened out of stupidity, complacency, and being in a hurry - If you want to "JAB" at me, do it in a PM

3:) Just because theres a better mouse trap doesnt mean the old one doesnt still work- and yes, I cut grounding prongs off a lot of my tools - The ones that dont need them ! Most tools are grounded just because someone said they "need" to be. not because they are actually grounded anywhere inside the tool.

4:) Are you serious dude ? Not even going to comment on this

5:) You work for SS don't you ?


NOt only has EVERY saw I've owned been used, EVERY saw I ever own will be. I will restore and re-build my equipment until the day I stop using it. IF I won the lotterey, I would do the exact same thing. The ONLY way I would have a "flesh sensing saw" in my shop is if I built it myself.

It is just plain silly that a company can be held "liable" for someones stupidity or ignorance. I'm still waiting for Huffy to settle on that pants claim I filed 40 years ago

[ian maybury]

I guess the authoritarian tendency tries to standardise individuals to the lowest common denominator packaged in a form that doesn't threaten them - and since that's the dominant model in our societies the result is that we're heavily conditioned to default to enforced externally applied solutions. For safety as well as for pretty much everything else.

I'd argue that when the worker has choice - e.g. isn't forced to work in dangerous circumstances against his better judgement by need (another face of authority) - then safety has not got that much to do with the hardware. Most will take very good care when working around what's an obviously dangerous piece of equipment.

I too raced motorcycles for many years Chris, and have watched and ridden sports road bikes as they have gone from maybe 50 to 180 HP - from struggling to break 90mph to 180mph capability. What's more they often get ridden by what's perceived as being the wildest segment of society (young males). Some do (unsurprisingly given what they get up to) get killed or injured, but if 10% of the claims of the (authoritarian and distant from motorcycling realities) road safety and power/speed restriction lobbies over the years about the inherent danger of speed, power and so called 'risky' behaviours were true then buying a big bike would be tantamount to signing your own death warrant.

These road safety people are of course the same guys that somehow think that littering street and roadscapes with iron obstacles and complexity - road signs, crash barriers, traffic lights, painted markings and the like delivers safety. An experiment in recent years that removed all except minimal street markings in a town in Holland produced a reduction in the accident rate of the order of 40%. The trouble is that in the mind of the vested interest less is never more, and the big picture is inadmissible.

There have of course been useful safety improvements over the years, but I'd argue that the woodworking safety industry (blinded by its largely selfish motivations) is no more accurate in its perceptions of the nature of risk than the road safety bandwagon....

The reality of course is that a bike is reasonably safe (not absolutely safe) in the hands of a switched on, grounded and self responsible rider. So many that get hurt are for example middle aged dudes new to them, and so full of conditioned attitudes that they can't connect with the reality. (watch any of the hospital/emergency room documentary programmes on TV to verify this one)

It's in the end our internalised beliefs that determine our perception of our situation, and hence our motivations and behaviour. We aren't necessarily conscious of most of our beliefs (fish don't think much about water it seems), but we experience their consequences in the form of our truly held values, attitudes, moods and emotions - and it's this internal landscape (in total - e.g. a tendency to rush stuff is a risk too) that determines how we relate to situations containing risk.

It's our ability (or not) to match our behaviour to the reality of a given life situation that truly decides how safe we are...