Restoring an old Stanley No. 2

[John Stevens]

I'm sure this has been covered before, so maybe I should just ask, is there a thread here or a SMC blog entry that tells how to restore an old plane? I'd like to restore this Stanley No. 2, but I'm not sure what I have to do. There's a paint spot or two, some paint rubbed into the sides, some light rust and sawdusty grime. The handle, knob, blade and chip breaker are in good shape, but there's slight chip on the cap.

Many thanks in advance for any help you can give me.

Regards,

John

[john brenton]

looks good to me. I'd scrape and buff with some paste wax and call it done. You might want to try that and see if it's really worth the whole restore.

[Prashun Patel]

If you can get hold of some citric acid, the easiest thing for light cleanup is to disassemble the parts and throw all the metal ones in a citric acid bath for a couple hours. Then scour it lightly with a brass brush. That'll derust and clean it pretty well without harming the paint. The cheeks can be cleaned the same way. IMHO, the biggest time sink in these restores is fixing the paint (stripping all of it off, and putting it on again, neatly). I think the bath will make it plenty pretty without much effort. Use gloves bkz the rust becomes this black oxide that marks up anything it touches like printer toner.

Another quick fix for the adjustment knob and the screws is to get a fine wire cup brush for your drill press, and some heavy duty rubber gloves. The brush will abrade off any rust and patina from the screws and make them look like new. You can also use the cup brush on the side of the frog to remove that yellow paint if you find it distasteful. If you like yr cheeks a little shiny, you can also use it to buff off the patina.

If you do decide to acid-bathe it, you'll need to blowdry and immediately oil it to prevent flash rusting. The flash rust will rub right off with steel wool on the cheeks, but it's harder to get at on the frog, so it's best to prevent it in the 1st place.

Nice lookin' plane; I'm searching for #2 m'self.

[john brenton]

I'll give a big thumbs up for Evap-o-Rust if you do go that route. Harbor Freight carries it, and that stuff is amazing. It doesn't affect the japaning as long as its in good condition. It will help peel off jappaning sitting on rusted iron.

The body, the blade, the breaker...everything (except the wood) in a bucket of evaporust, and in a couple of hours, or overnight, you just wash it off with water and scrub it. It leaves kind of a matte surface on everything, but it makes the clean up way easier than scraping or even electrolysis.


If you can get hold of some citric acid, the easiest thing for light cleanup is to disassemble the parts and throw all the metal ones in a citric acid bath for a couple hours. Then scour it lightly with a brass brush. That'll derust and clean it pretty well without harming the paint.

[Randy Briggs]

I'll give a big thumbs up for Evap-o-Rust if you do go that route. Harbor Freight carries it, and that stuff is amazing. It doesn't affect the japaning as long as its in good condition. It will help peel off jappaning sitting on rusted iron.

The body, the blade, the breaker...everything (except the wood) in a bucket of evaporust, and in a couple of hours, or overnight, you just wash it off with water and scrub it. It leaves kind of a matte surface on everything, but it makes the clean up way easier than scraping or even electrolysis.

+1 on Evaporust. Amazing stuff - usually don't soak the brass myself. Use Kramer's Antique Improver on the wood and metal too after cleaning.

[John A. Callaway]

+1 on the citric acid

See what it does here
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?144408-number-8-restoration-...-YAY-!!!!&highlight= (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?144408-number-8-restoration-...-YAY-%21%21%21%21&highlight=)

maybe a soft wire wheel on a grinder first to knock off some of the old paint....

[Mel Miller]

All of the chemical cleaning methods will destroy some of the collectible value of the plane. How long is the plane overall? That may be an even more valuable long body #2. I'm basically a collector, and always try to preserve as much value in any tool I clean. If you don't care about that, a severe cleaning will give you a bright and shiny user plane.

Mel

[john brenton]

Did you ever post a pic of the finished plane? What I saw looked good, but I'd like to see a fashion shot, with the plane just slightly askew as if it were a brand new Mercedes...you know what I'm talking about!


+1 on the citric acid

See what it does here
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?144408-number-8-restoration-...-YAY-!!!!&highlight= (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?144408-number-8-restoration-...-YAY-%21%21%21%21&highlight=)

maybe a soft wire wheel on a grinder first to knock off some of the old paint....

[Mike Brady]

All of the chemical cleaning methods will destroy some of the collectible value of the plane. How long is the plane overall? That may be an even more valuable long body #2. I'm basically a collector, and always try to preserve as much value in any tool I clean. If you don't care about that, a severe cleaning will give you a bright and shiny user plane.

Mel
With all due respect to collectors, I disagree that cleaning of this particular plane will decrease its value. It might narrow the market somewhat, but those that will want a restored plane will pay more for it. What devalues the plane in the photo is what appears to be a chip in the lever cap. That will hurt it more that cleaning, whether a collector or user buys it. If you definitely are selling it, then leave it alone...the buyer will do what he wants with it. If I was the buyer, I would clean it judiciously and get the paint off of it. All in all, that is a very nice plane. Congrats.

[Mel Miller]

With all due respect to collectors, I disagree that cleaning of this particular plane will decrease its value. It might narrow the market somewhat, but those that will want a restored plane will pay more for it.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with that statement. I've found, thru over 25 years of collecting, buying, and selling planes that overcleaning or restoring drastically reduces the value of a plane.

Mel

[john brenton]

That's entirely contingent on the collectibility of a particular plane though. Nobody here would disagree that soaking a perfectly patinated rare plane would be a big mistake in terms of reselling on the market...but cleaning up a "Stanley Handyman" or junky Craftsman plane does nothing to lower collector value as there is no demand there...unless there is some weirdo out there that collects those. Those are two extremes, but I've found that with your average Stanley...let's say a typical post-war #4 (which are still excellent and elegant planes), the value as a cleaned up user can easily exceed the collector value...unless of course the condition is remarkably pristine.

There is a point where "collectibility" and "useabiliity" (are either of those words?) even out in today's market of plane hoarders and aspiring hand tool users dipping their foot in the water before they take the $300 premium hand plane plunge.

I'm interested now to what you think about this particular plane Mel. It looks like it has some pretty bad rusting, paint on it, and to me that style of lever cap detracts from the planes elegance and disqualifies it for me. Do you see any collectibility here?


Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with that statement. I've found, thru over 25 years of collecting, buying, and selling planes that overcleaning or restoring drastically reduces the value of a plane.

Mel

[Mel Miller]

There is a point where "collectibility" and "useabiliity" (are either of those words?) even out in today's market of plane hoarders and aspiring hand tool users dipping their foot in the water before they take the $300 premium hand plane plunge.

I'm interested now to what you think about this particular plane Mel. To me the lever cap detracts from it's beauty...and I don't mean the chip. Do you see any collectibility here?

I should have explained my thoughts on cleaning a little better. You're correct that cleaning or restoring a common plane will not reduce its' value. I was referring to collectible value, and the #2 in question has that. We still haven't received a report on the length of this plane, but my thought is that most #2s have more collectible than user value and this one could be even more. The chip in the lever cap bothers me more than the fading nickel plating as the nickel plating was always weak on these planes. The orange sides on the frog are a seldom seen factory marking.

Mel

[David Keller NC]

Mel is entirely correct about this - ANY model of a Stanley #2 has considerable collector's value, though not as much as a #1 (which can sell for well north of $1000 in rusty condition). A long-bed model is very rare, and the upper end of the collector's market where this one would sell if it is indeed a long #2 will very heavily punish even chemical rust removal, and especially taking a wirebrush, sandpaper or scotchbrite pad to any part of the plane. Stripping and re-japanning will hurt its value even more - to the point where the seller will get the dreaded descriptive comment "this example has been nicely cleaned and restored..." in the auction description.

[john brenton]

David,

Do you think that the condition of this particular "specimen" has a collector $$ value great enough to trump it's $$ value as a
"suped" up user? I definitely concede that a #2 commands a high price, but from the trends I've seen in the past there seems to be an equal demand for a #2 (in the condition of the OP's plane) for collectors, and for a restored user. Meaning, I've always thought that a beat to heck #2 gets the same price from a collector that a restored #2 gets from a user.

Again, just my humble opinion, and my arc of observation is nowhere near those who have been dealing with Stanley planes longer than I've been alive.


Mel is entirely correct about this - ANY model of a Stanley #2 has considerable collector's value, though not as much as a #1 (which can sell for well north of $1000 in rusty condition). A long-bed model is very rare, and the upper end of the collector's market where this one would sell if it is indeed a long #2 will very heavily punish even chemical rust removal, and especially taking a wirebrush, sandpaper or scotchbrite pad to any part of the plane. Stripping and re-japanning will hurt its value even more - to the point where the seller will get the dreaded descriptive comment "this example has been nicely cleaned and restored..." in the auction description.

[Mike Brady]

I should have explained my thoughts on cleaning a little better. You're correct that cleaning or restoring a common plane will not reduce its' value. I was referring to collectible value, and the #2 in question has that. We still haven't received a report on the length of this plane, but my thought is that most #2s have more collectible than user value and this one could be even more. The chip in the lever cap bothers me more than the fading nickel plating as the nickel plating was always weak on these planes. The orange sides on the frog are a seldom seen factory marking.

Mel
I respect your many years of collecting. Collectors invariably distain cleaning of tools because it undermines the value quotient of their collections. Cleaning probably seems unfair to you because you have scoured the market for naturally occurring "clean" planes (you call them NOS, probably), and pay dearly for them. I understand this. All collectibles are this way (except antique cars). M

Mel I think if you added the qualifyer that cleaning lowers the value of a plane to a collector you would be absolutely right. The question of the particular plane above being more valuable left as is can only really be answered in the market place. My guess is that the plane above would bring more if it was cleaned judiciously and sold on eBay and would bring the most if it was parted out and sold piece-meal. Replacing the chipped lever cap already takes it out of the realm of being 100% original.
It also has been somewhat carelessly stored which resulted in significant rust. With all of the #2's out there in good+ or better condition on a given day, I don't see this plane being worth very much as you see it. I would be interested in your value appraisal.

[David Weaver]

I'd put it on ebay and sell it.

And get a dirty 3 and several other planes with the proceeds to restore.

It's too bad it's got a chipped lever cap. I'm in MB's camp, here, i'm not sure there's enough there for a collector to worry too much. I wouldn't strip it and rejapan it, but I wouldn't be averse to some WD40 lubricated scotchbrite to get rid of some of the rust and still leave the color.

Still, it's a problem I'd rather not have, and if I did, I'd just dump it on ebay unless you have a great reason to have a #2.

[Jim Koepke]

For just about any other plane my recommendations would be go for the full fettle clean up.

Since this is a late model #2 there are questions before a good answer can be given.

The most important question would be what are your intentions for this plane?

If your plan is to sell it. Then let the person buying it do as they desire.

When it comes to planes like the #1 and #2 the only reason they are in my shop is because I can afford to have them. They are the 2 least used bench planes in my shop.

My biggest conundrum would be finding one of these or a #1 at a yard sale for $10. Would it be sold or kept? Especially the #1, would this have me sell my LN #1 to keep the Stanley?

My opinion is to sharpen the blade and set the frog and give it some use as is.

The plane can always be cleaned tomorrow.

It can never be properly uncleaned.

The orange frog could be from the maker. Some were supposedly painted like this for sale to schools.

Most of the planes that have come through my hands fall into a different category than this one. Many of them were helped by a cleaning and tune up. Some significantly. It was because they didn't have collector value that they "got better" with cleaning. Some user planes of mine were actually uglified by too enthusiastic use of abrasives and wire wheels by previous owners. This can even lower their value to a discriminating user. I bought them because of the low prices.

If your plane were mine to deal with, it would likely just be wiped down with my rag that is saturated by furniture oil and wax. The blade would be sharpened and then only whatever was needed to coax some photogenic shavings out of its mouth for the photo shoot to make this a good seller would be done. I would include pictures and descriptions of any flaws like the chip to the lever cap, with images of both sides.

If you do a lot of small work, this could be a good asset in your tool chest.

If that is your thinking, then you might want to use it to see if it is what you want in your selection of working tools. If this is the case after time has passed, you may want to clean it up some. Also remember, this can be more than a working asset just as it is. If it does not work well with what you do, it can likely bring a price that will allow you to purchase other tools that would serve you better.

That orange frog may look ugly to you, but to a couple of folks with BIG$$$ it could be a bidding war to fill a blank spot on their #2 shelf.

jtk

[john brenton]

Although I enjoy the philosophical side of it all, I couldn't agree more with what you said David.

John S. is probably saying "Dudes, can you all stop pontificating and just tell me how to restore this thing??"


I'd put it on ebay and sell it.

And get a dirty 3 and several other planes with the proceeds to restore.

It's too bad it's got a chipped lever cap. I'm in MB's camp, here, i'm not sure there's enough there for a collector to worry too much. I wouldn't strip it and rejapan it, but I wouldn't be averse to some WD40 lubricated scotchbrite to get rid of some of the rust and still leave the color.

Still, it's a problem I'd rather not have, and if I did, I'd just dump it on ebay unless you have a great reason to have a #2.

[Jim Koepke]

I wouldn't strip it and rejapan it, but I wouldn't be averse to some WD40 lubricated scotchbrite to get rid of some of the rust and still leave the color.

In the mind of the user, this makes sense. Most users would look at this and think, "a nice looking plane that I can put right to work."

To the collector, as is, the plane might make them think, "Wow, no one has tried messing with this one. Look at all that history smeared all over it."
For a collector, cleaning may actually have them sitting on the side lines unless the plane has been cleaned/restored by someone who's reputation they know.
Some collectors may want to do the job themselves.

John will be the one to ultimately make the decision. Hopefully the questions and comments in my previous post will aid him in making a decision that best suits his needs and/or desires.

jtk

[Mark Wyatt]

Trying to decipher the mind of tool (or other) collectors is a practice where errors are easy to make. Some collectors will certainly like this tool exactly as is, without any clean-up at all. This is what they seek in a tool, whatever the reason. Others only want tools that have been properly tuned and restored. Often times it depends on the tool, the restorer, or some other factor. Consider some of the threads on this board about the outrageous (or fair depending on your POV) prices some e-*** sellers receive for their fully restored saws. Would a non-restored saw sell for nearly as much?

Mel apparently has a long history selling antique tools and I'm one to trust experience. It is very likely that the buyers he deals with would prefer the plane in the current condition. That doesn't exclude the possibility of other buyers out there who would prefer the plane restored. If resale is the purpose, a seller would need to have a good conduit to them. Not all buyers are fans of that popular auction site.

If the OP has not restored a plane before and is considering doing so for the first time, perhaps this is not the plane to experiment on, particularly if there is a plan to sell the plane in the future.

[John Stevens]

Hi, Guys. First, I want to thank you all for sharing your knowledge and opinions. I'm very grateful. Second, I have to say that I intend to sell the plane. I don't collect vintage planes, and one of the reasons I'm a stranger to the Neander forum is that I'm all thumbs with hand tools, so the value is wasted on me either way, whether collectable or user.

I tend to go with those who say to leave it alone as much as possible and let the buyer do what makes it most valuable to him. Still, I'm not sure whether that means do absolutely nothing, or brush some of the sawdust out of the nooks and crannies?

I can give a little more info on the plane:

It's sole is 7 1/4" long. Is that the standard length?

The comment that some of the planes sold to schools were painted like this is interesting--the former owner was a school teacher who started teaching maybe in the late 1940s, and finished maybe in the mid- or late-1960s. Don't know more than that, unfortunately.

Edit: The former owner had the blade set up so the beveled side was down. Is that correct?

Thanks again for all your info so far, and thanks in advance for anything else you can tell me.

Regards,

John

[Jim Koepke]

I tend to go with those who say to leave it alone as much as possible and let the buyer do what makes it most valuable to him. Still, I'm not sure whether that means do absolutely nothing, or brush some of the sawdust out of the nooks and crannies?


It will not hurt to use a paint brush to clean off some of the sawdust.



It's sole is 7 1/4" long. Is that the standard length?


I think the "catalog" length is 7". Mine is 7-1/2". I think the long ones are almost 8".



Edit: The former owner had the blade set up so the beveled side was down. Is that correct?


Yes. The Stanley/Bailey and Bedrock bench style planes are all known as bevel down planes. With a standard 25° grind on the blade, if the bevel was up, the working angle would be 75° and likely very hard to push.

A few years ago, my #2 was pretty cheap at $200 bucks. I am not sure if it is original paint or not. I just kept trying until I won one on that auction site.

Good luck with yours,

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

If you are going to resell, I wouldn't do anything by dust it off. But take it apart and take good photos.

IMHO, anyone looking for and willing to spend north of $50 on a used plane probably knows at least a little somethign about its value and is not going to be impressed by a little rehabbing; in fact, they're probably more apt to think there's hidden value waiting to be unlocked if the plane is dirty but all the parts are in tact. This is probably more true with the less common #2.

It's my unsubstantiated belief that the true novice will more readily spend $30 at a home center for a new plane than anything that's used even if you've put some sweat equity in it to rehab.

[David Weaver]

Ditto the others if you're selling - take good clear pictures of it and sell it as is. It's not worth the time to screw around with it other than a light clean off (i usually take mine apart and scrub them with a stiff plastic brush under water. Dry them off right away, they're not going to rust like that - not unless you leave a stray drop on virgin cast right after lapping the plane (no such thing exists on this one).

[John A. Callaway]

Did you ever post a pic of the finished plane? What I saw looked good, but I'd like to see a fashion shot, with the plane just slightly askew as if it were a brand new Mercedes...you know what I'm talking about!


I can do that for you tonight....

[john brenton]

Well, hold off on that. We've been saying it...and I don't want to say it again...but we will have to get together. I'll send you a PM.


I can do that for you tonight....

[Johnny Kleso]

For those that think rusty bench planes bring more money than ready to use please check the small box on the left side of eBay auctions that says COMPLETED AUCTIONS and let me know if I am weong...

As Patick Leach told me long ago..
" There are NO RARE Stanley Bench Planes execpt Types 1 and 2"
I would add also Type 3

Keep the Orange paint on the side of the frog they olny made them like that between 1931-32

I would clean the plane with mineral spirits and wire wheel the blade clean..

[Mel Miller]

As Patick Leach told me long ago..
" There are NO RARE Stanley Bench Planes execpt Types 1 and 2"
I would add also Type 3


I've seen a lot more type 2 planes than type 3, and the prices they bring verify it. But hey, Leach is a "legend in his own mind". what do we know?

Mel

[Jim Koepke]

For those that think rusty bench planes bring more money than ready to use please check the small box on the left side of eBay auctions that says COMPLETED AUCTIONS and let me know if I am weong...

Nice clean #4-1/2 (280622609892) $54
Rusty #4-1/2 (290529230955) $122.50

eBay is a real crap shoot when it comes to this kind of comparison.

I see a few #2s. Some are in great shape. I have not seen any of those that have the look of being hit with a wire brush or even a new coat of paint.

One was listed as cleaned and brought a price in the low middle of the range.

My opinion (and only my opinion) is a person who has not done a lot of work on planes and has not had experience cleaning a plane may do more to lower the value than enhance the value.

A person who is experienced in restoration of planes could well increase the attraction and value of their plane. By how much is the question.

Someone mentioned saws gaining value through restoration. I think that is a different matter all together. Many folks are not comfortable sharpening a saw, let alone de-rusting and polishing the saw plate. Raising the etch on an old saw is another one of those alchemist art projects that most people do not want to tackle.

There are caveats to every rule. Again, just my opinion, but if a person can clean a plane without it looking cleaned it can increase the value. If a person cleans a plane to the extent it stands out and shouts, "I have been cleaned" in an out of focus picture, then it will likely detract from its desirability and its perceived value.

jtk

[Mel Miller]

My opinion (and only my opinion) is a person who has not done a lot of work on planes and has not had experience cleaning a plane may do more to lower the value than enhance the value.

There are caveats to every rule. Again, just my opinion, but if a person can clean a plane without it looking cleaned it can increase the value. If a person cleans a plane to the extent it stands out and shouts, "I have been cleaned" in an out of focus picture, then it will likely detract from its desirability and its perceived value.

jtk

I think Jim has the right idea here. My concern was "overcleaning and restoration", especially by an inexperienced person. Some of the tools in my collection have been carefully cleaned when I felt it was warranted, but the cleaning doesn't make them jump out at you and shout "I've been cleaned".

Mel

[John Stevens]

Keep the Orange paint on the side of the frog they olny made them like that between 1931-32

Just out of idle curiousity, how sure are you about that? Regardless, at this point, I ain't doin' nothin' except getting out of the way and letting someone else enjoy it.

Regards,

John

[Johnny Kleso]

Keep The Orange Paint...
100% SURE :)

Miller Falls started a few years before painting frogs red and Stanley countered with painting type 15 frogs orange..
I collect Type 15 and T14s and love when the T15 has the orange paint, as not all do..
It confirms it as T15 with orange sides..


Jim I know you know that T17s sell for less than T10-T16s and especially when its a No.4 1/2C
I bet you can find two T17s that oppose what I said but I bet the tread is in general planes more ready to use sell for more..
As you know its a lot of hard dirty work to get old planes ready to use and no way was the 4 1/2C going on a shelf as a collector..

Jim, I was ready to say I bet a Minty No3 T18 I sitting on my desk but I'm not so sure I am expressing my feels into words well and you are also correct to a point as the No2 was not a rusty dog..
All of the dozen or so planes I call my collectors are un-restored but I did clean them to a sharp like new condition as much as I could..

I am not 100% postive that I never bid on ready to use planes much or that I was out bid most of the time and don't remmember..
Its been a few years since I was buying and selling hand planes and cant really recall what sells for more or its just what I want to think..
I think its the ready to use planes with a nice pic of shaving in the plane not the rust bucket but the No.2 is not a rust bucket..

I just know after cleaning, painting and sharpening 100s of hand planes for people I would pay more for someone else to do it :)

[Jim Koepke]

Johnny,
I think there are enough variables here to make us both right on different days of the week.

I know that a well fettled plane will have a higher value than the same plane in the rough. After all, I have done that a few times my self to make a bit of money. None of the planes going through my hands were really of great collector value.

With the plane in question, I would likely try to enhance its value with careful cosmetics. For someone who is not experienced with such, I would warn against much of the advice that they may receive like taking it to a wire wheel or even hitting it with Scotch Brite pads.

Making it pretty without the evidence of being prettied up is what is needed. In the long run, one would have to consider how much the value would be enhanced. I am not sure that for less than $50 it would be worth the time or taking a chance.

jtk

[David Keller NC]

I think Jim has the right idea here. My concern was "overcleaning and restoration", especially by an inexperienced person. Some of the tools in my collection have been carefully cleaned when I felt it was warranted, but the cleaning doesn't make them jump out at you and shout "I've been cleaned".

Mel

This was my intent as well - the reason I advise against cleaning old tools with collector's value has to do with someone without much experience in the area making a rather tragic mistake. Specifically, the "normal" ways one might clean off a rusty 1960's handsaw, such as naval jelly and/or a wire brush, is not at all appropriate for a rare or uncommon collector's item. It's true that a light solvent wash and application of paste wax may actually enhance the value of some types of tools, as it makes the true condition of the tool more apparent in an auction.

I'll give you an extreme example - an individual (not a tool collector, but thinks of themselves as a "handyman") lucked into a C. Chelor wooden plane. He was told that any attempt at restoration of this incredibly valuable old tool would heavily (negatively) affect its value. Unfortunately , the party in question ignored the advice, and "improved" the plane by sanding all of the surfaces to remove surface scratches and 250 years of grime. As most that know something about this area have surmised, what should've been a $6,000 to $8,000 historically significant, signed artifact sold for about $800. The point here is that a Cesar Chelor molding plane looks very similar to the untrained eye as an Ohio Tool molding plane. The former is worth thousands, the latter is worth 10s of dollars, or maybe even single digits. Doing whatever you want to the Ohio Tool tool isn't a big monetary mistake - but doing anything to the C. Chelor plane is.