Camellia oil

[Richard Dooling]

I know not to improperly store oily or solvent soaked rags due to the potential for spontaneous combustion. How about camellia oil?

It would be nice to keep a rag on hand for quickly wiping down metal planes etc.

Thanks

[Jonathan McCullough]

Maybe I'm a fuddyduddy but I keep a big coffee can with water in it, and all my oily rags and paper towels go in there after use. The can is stored outdoors. No exceptions, no distinctions.

[Johnny Kleso]

Its kind of like Canola Oil while it will burn like most oils I pretty sure its will not spontaneously combust..
Never keep oily rags around..

[Jim Koepke]

I may be living dangerously, but likely I am being safe.

Some of my rags are taken outside and hung out to dry. Other rags are spread out in such a way as to be unable to produce the conditions that are needed to produce "spontaneous combustion."

It is my understanding that camellia oil is not a drying oil. Drying oils tend to heat as they change state. It is the drying oils like BLO and Tung oil that I will not leave "laying around in a pile."

In my case, the regularly used rag full of furniture oil and wax does not get wadded up in a way that the heat build up can become concentrated enough to burst into flame. Also, since it is a non-drying oil I am also not as worried.


There are three conditions
which are important in the spontaneous ignition process. These are: (i.) rate of heat generation, (ii.) air supply
and (iii.) insulation properties of the immediate surroundings. A loosely packed pile of drying oil soaked
cloths may spontaneously combust whereas a tightly packed pile or a single cloth on a clothes line will not. In
the case of a single cloth on a clothes line, although there is sufficient air supply to accommodate oxidation,
any heat generated will be carried off quicker than it is formed.

This came from a study of spontaneous combustion at:

http://www.tcforensic.com.au/docs/uts/essay6.pdf

To be on the safe side, you could store an oily rag in a sealed can (no plastic lids) or get one of these:

181517

As a general rule, leaving oily rags around is a very bad idea.

The exception to the rule is one rag being hung up and spread enough to avoid heat build up is likely something a lot of wood workers do without incendiary incidents. It is convenient to have a rag to be used for wiping along a plane's sole before it is used or before it is put away for the night. Mine also gets used on the lathe and other pieces of wood.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

For the most part, it is likely best to teach the "most safe" method of treating all oil soaked rags as potential fire starters.

If schools were to attempt teaching the conditions and causes of spontaneous combustion there would likely be a day dreamer in the class who only learned half the lesson and would think that it is safe to throw oily rags into piles in a corner because, "that is what they taught us in class."

My practices are based upon my understandings and opinions. They may be totally incorrect.

After all, it is just my 181523

jtk

[Bob Strawn]

Camellia like olive oil or mineral oil will evaporate over a very long time. It does not pose the same sort of spontaneous combustion problem. Drying oils have higher iodine levels and oxidize into a resinous form. The oxidation process just like fire, produces heat. Rags are good insulation, so the heat can build up and with no where to go, and fast enough oxidation, fire can start. BLO is treated with lead and cobalt in order to facilitate fast oxidation. As a result, rags with BLO on them can ignite readily on their own. For those of you who don't think BLO contains Lead, read the MSDS.

That is why I use safflower oil. The safflower oil I use is High Linoleic Acid safflower oil. I use it instead of BLO for just about everything. is a superb drying oil and is used in quality oil paints. It does not tend to mildew or yellow. It dries slower, but you can instant dry it by heating it carefully over a burner or with a heat gun.



If the nutritional label has Polyunsaturated fat as a much higher number than Monounsaturated fat then it is the right stuff.

http://toolmakingart.battlering.com/images/WaxandDye/Oil%20nutrition.JPG

Camellia will burn, but it is about as far from a spontaneous combustion hazard as you will find.


Bob

[Niels Cosman]

i dont think you have to worry about it spontaneously combusting.

for what it's worth, i apply camilia with a little chip brush i hang on the wall next to my bench. I spritz a little on the brush and wipe it on my tools. i have two brushes for this one, that is "dry" for removing dust and chips, and the "wet" for applying the oil. I rap the metal part of the brush with duct tape so not to scratch the tools or damage any japanning.

[Richard Dooling]

Thanks everyone, lots of good info here.

Niels I like the idea of using a small brush - I'll give it a try.

FWIW I did find sources for MSDSs. Here is one source that includes the MSDS for camellia oil.

http://www.naturalsourcing.com/downloads/msds.asp

Camellia oil MSDS
http://www.naturalsourcing.com/msds/MSDS_Camellia_Oil.pdf

[David Weaver]

Ditto to the "no problem" guys. It's not a drying oil, it doesn't get hot.

I always leave a rag around with some of it on (better to bury the bottle nozzle in a rag and use the rag than spray the oil all over the place trying to get it on your tools with the spray bottle).

What I really want to know is whether or not it offers some material benefit over mineral oil, which is about 1/8th as expensive. I haven't found a case where it does, though I still have some camelia bottles to go through. I get the sense that camelia oil is pushed at us not because it's superior, but because you can't sell mineral oil for much when it costs $13 a gallon at a food supply store. Mineral oil is one of the main components of some japanese sword care stuff, so I don't think there's a reason to avoid it on tools.

The best thing I ever did for rust care was to store planes that don't get used often in the house, and sell any other planes or chisels that get used so little that they always come out of the roll with rust on them.

If you have lots of tools that get used little, paste wax (just like you'd apply it on your TS table) is a better option than camelia oil. If you put camelia oil on something and don't get it out for a long while while, it will still have rust on it, it's not a long-term storage solution.

[john brenton]

Even the ones I know do not spontaneously combust worry me...even though they shouldn't. I have two toddlers and it freaks me out. I put them in a bucket of water...then I worry about legionnaires disease.

I hate dealing with oily rags, as I can't see myself throwing them out, and my wife doesn't want me throwing them in the washing machine so I have to wash them by hand. I would get an antique washboard, but with these abs I'm not sure I need one. Yeah...the last part's not true.

[David Weaver]

Yeah...the last part's not true.

Well, maybe you can wring them out in the rolls like a human wringer washer.

:)

Watch out for the mosquitoes and dead chipmunks in the water buckets!

[Andrae Covington]

...What I really want to know is whether or not it offers some material benefit over mineral oil, which is about 1/8th as expensive. I haven't found a case where it does, though I still have some camelia bottles to go through. I get the sense that camelia oil is pushed at us not because it's superior, but because you can't sell mineral oil for much when it costs $13 a gallon at a food supply store...

Apparently some people use jojoba oil instead of camellia. The source plant is native to the American southwest. It is a little thicker than camellia oil, probably more like mineral oil. Lie-Nielsen, for example, sells both, but the jojoba is only a little less expensive than camellia. If purchased as a cosmetic product from amazon et al it is more costly per ounce. So if you like jojoba oil for your skin, buy it from Lie-Nielsen.:D

I bought camellia oil from craftsmanstudio and it came with an applicator (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/J02.167.htm) which has a felt (I think) tip. There is a screw-on lid to keep it covered when not in use. Most of the time I use this to put the oil on my tools, primarily on the soles of my planes to reduce friction. One downside I have found is that tiny bits of felt tend to be left behind with the oil. To put the oil on hard-to-reach areas of planes, when I have disassembled them and want some rust protection, I use a rag. Although I am cautious about oily rags otherwise, I've never worried about the camellia oil rags.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I made a small camellia oil holder and stuffed a spiral of felt inside it, then poured the oil over all. This sits on my bench ready for plane bottoms and/or other tools. It doesn't dry out, hasn't caught fire (to be honest, I didn't even think of it), just sits there waiting. It's a good idea to make something of a cover for it when not in use since it appears to be a dust/dirt magnet.

Pam

[Jim Koepke]

So if you like jojoba oil for your skin, buy it from Lie-Nielsen.

There may be nothing wrong with this.

There could be a significant difference between the oils.

It has to do with the requirements involving allowable contaminants. Products sold for use in food or on the human body have to meet standards that products sold for use on metal do not.

I tend to always buy food grade mineral oil so it can be used on cutting boards. I can also use it for light lubrication or as a honing oil.

When I was in photography one of the supply houses explained that the chemicals they sold were not the same as the ones sold by a photo supply source. They explained some of the contaminants allowed for metal processing were not suitable in photographic use. They had the same name, just not the same specifications.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Apparently some people use jojoba oil instead of camellia. The source plant is native to the American southwest. It is a little thicker than camellia oil, probably more like mineral oil. Lie-Nielsen, for example, sells both, but the jojoba is only a little less expensive than camellia. If purchased as a cosmetic product from amazon et al it is more costly per ounce. So if you like jojoba oil for your skin, buy it from Lie-Nielsen.:D

I bought camellia oil from craftsmanstudio and it came with an applicator (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/J02.167.htm) which has a felt (I think) tip. There is a screw-on lid to keep it covered when not in use. Most of the time I use this to put the oil on my tools, primarily on the soles of my planes to reduce friction. One downside I have found is that tiny bits of felt tend to be left behind with the oil. To put the oil on hard-to-reach areas of planes, when I have disassembled them and want some rust protection, I use a rag. Although I am cautious about oily rags otherwise, I've never worried about the camellia oil rags.

I saw the price of jojoba and especially camellia for cosmetics. Still, I don't see a great reason to pay $20-25 a pint for a flower oil (obviously, I have done it, or I wouldn't have bottles of camelia oil). The thing that burned my rear last time I got some was getting a LN bottle that's marked "product of china" with a tip that crapped out having barely used any of the oil in the bottle.

For whatever reason, I was making an order from a kitchen supply store in texas, and I just added food safe light mineral oil on, a gallon, it was either $12 or $13. Since then, i've used mineral oil some and had no planes that it was used on rust. It's probably similar in consistency to camelia oil, but it's the same price for 8 pints as camelia oil is for 8 ounces, plus it has a multitude of other uses (coarse oilstones, etc), and especially if you hook yourself up with some $6 per pound natural beeswax from epay and use it for turning (why again is beeswax $20 for less than half a pound from WW suppliers?).

Maybe I'm just turning into a cheap old coot.

[george wilson]

Starrett tool and instrument oil is just high grade mineral oil.

[David Weaver]

Back to the oily rags thing.

If you have an open garage stall, you can test how much heat you can get from a rag of BLO to see what really causes the problem.

I would not recommend that you just throw drying oil rags around willy nilly, but i rarely (ok never) toss my BLO wiping rag until it's dry. I don't put it in a bucket, either. I have a garage with a concrete floor, and that floor is always cold. I spread out the rag in an open spot and I don't worry about it. When it's crispy hard (dried out), I pick it up and throw it away.

It has never even gotten warm. I've checked. If they aren't balled up or stacked in a pile, they can't even create enough heat to get warm sitting on the floor.

It's the insulation of a pile of them that causes the problem. The exothermic reaction on a spread out cloth doesn't do anything, which is why all of the stories you see on TV are from people who threw a bunch of them in a can (they're always old stories for when people used to use BLO in general instead of polyurethane, too, aren't they? not that current BLO wouldn't do the same thing as it did then, it's just that most people don't just go around wiping things with BLO these days).

[Jim Koepke]

When it's crispy hard (dried out), I pick it up and throw it away.

These make good tack rags or just a bit of wax on the rag it can be used for a rubbing or polishing rag.

Try it on a lathe as a final wipe.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Jim, you mean good for polishing because it's hard and it burnishes a little?

[Andrae Covington]

I made a small camellia oil holder and stuffed a spiral of felt inside it, then poured the oil over all. This sits on my bench ready for plane bottoms and/or other tools. It doesn't dry out, hasn't caught fire (to be honest, I didn't even think of it), just sits there waiting. It's a good idea to make something of a cover for it when not in use since it appears to be a dust/dirt magnet.

Pam

I have been thinking about making something along those lines, ever since I watched the Jim Kingshott videos and he had one. I think he was just using BLO but not sure about that. Anyway it seems more convenient for lubricating the soles, just reach over with the plane and take a swipe.

[Lon Crosby]

For a natural alternative, try Fluid Film from Eureka Chemical. It is wool wax, and sold as a rust and corrosion preventative. That is lanolin to you and me. Available as a liquid, paste, in a spray can, etc. Widely used in industry. Probably available in your local auto parts store or implement store (in rural areas). Lanolin is also available in “old fashion” pharmacies and maybe a health food store. It is a well kept secret. Plus, if you are a little messy, your spouse will like your hands!

[george wilson]

I may get in trouble for saying this,but any lanolin I have ever tried turned brass green overnight. Some lanolin can corrode steel too. Maybe this is a different formulation. I have seen civil war pistols wrapped in woolen socks that were so eaten into that the coarse weave of the cloth was etched deeply into the metal.

[Stanley Covington]

Camelia oil as sold for tool use is primarily mineral oil with a bit of camelia essential oil scent added as fragrance. Nowhere is it represented as pure (or even XX%) natural camelia oil.

Olde English Lemon Oil furniture polish is much the same beast.

I bought a bottle of pure camelia oil way back when, and found that over time it becomes hard and sticky, so the mineral oil is superior IMO. BTW, I am told by those that were around back then that during WWII the Japanese airforce ran camelia oil in their plane engines. Using plant oil in engines has a long history. Just look at Castrol, a company that based its products on castor bean oil once upon a time.

Mineral oil is generally superior in my experience to camelia as a rust preventative because it does not harden. It does evaporate over time, however, and since it has relatively low surface tension, it can creep over polished steel leaving unprotected spots. The better modern rust preventative products do not have this problem.

I think L-N is promoting camelia oil because it is pleasant to use, it works well enough as a rust preventative, it is extremely profitable to sell, and it does not expose them to any liability risk over toxicity or environmental contamination matters.

Camelia oil has a very pleasant fragrance. So if you buy it for the smell, perhaps the additional cost the camelia scent adds to the bottle of mineral oil is worth it. Just don't kid yourself that you are using pure flower oil, or that it is a vastly superior rust preventative.

Stan

[David Weaver]

Stanley - thank you for that explanation. Even more reason to buy food grade light mineral oil by the gallon instead of camelia oil by 200 ml for the same price.

And just as I suspected - retailers won't sell you plain light mineral oil because it's unprofitable to do so, not because it isn't just as good.

[Jim Koepke]

And just as I suspected - retailers won't sell you plain light mineral oil because it's unprofitable to do so, not because it isn't just as good.

Of course, the shipping would likely be as much or more than it cost to buy from a local grocer or pharmacist.

jtk

[David Weaver]

I can't remember what it cost me to ship it, but you can also get light mineral oil from farm supply stores and animal supply places (like if you have an equine supply shop around). I guess people like to put it through horses in large quantities. They also charge about $12-$15 a gallon.

I was already ordering from the kitchen supply place, and added on the mineral oil just because I saw it.

I know you can get mineral oil locally at department stores, etc, but I like to get it in gallons because it seems like there's a lot of uses for it. I saw a recipe the other week for a mix of light mineral oil and beeswax for a "turning wax". Not like nobody's ever used it finish furniture, too, I guess - it's really nice to have around. A quart of "turning wax" was $10 with shipping for the beeswax and $1.50 for the mineral oil. It feels fabulous on the hands on a chisel handle, better than anything I've ever used.