Renting shop time

[Steve Jenkins]

I just thought I'd run an idea past everyone and see what the reaction is.

I've been toying with the idea of renting out time in my shop to someone with a project to build but without the tools or all the knowledge to complete it.

In a way it would be like a school except the project would be chosen by the person needing the help. I hesitate to call them a student.

My role would be to provide an environment with the tools,machinery, and knowledge to assist them in building their project.

It may be that all they need is help in cuttingout and edgeing panels for an entertainment center or bookcase unit. Maybe the help and space to do a project from start to finish.

I recognize that liability will be the issue brought up the most but I want to ignore that at this time and just look the feasibility of the idea.

So whatchu tink?

[Jim Becker]

The good news is that your shop is large enough to accomodate this without getting in the way of your own work, Steve. You might need to adjust the postion of a few tools that live towards the rear of the space for easy accessability by more than one person without whacking the other in the head with stock, but that shouldn't require a lot of work. Sounds like a nice idea. I may stop by Tuesday afternoon if my time allows and chat about it with you... :)

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I think it's a great idea Steve. I think you could build that into a viable part of your business easily with your knowledge, tools and experience. I know I'd be out there. I say go for it.

[Brad Olson]

Depends on a couple of things...

Local market
Pricing/accessibility


I would say there is probably a bigger demand for this sort of service than most would think. Think about how many people would like to build something, but do not have either the tools or the knowledge to do it.

Another class of people that would like this are people doing renovations of their house and wanting to do a few small custom cabinets or something like that. Here again access to knowledge and tools would be invaluable

My dad would be a prime candidate. He knows how to use most tools (not some specialty ones) but has no desire to do woodworking. He is renovating the kitchen and had to pay a bunch of money for a couple of custom cabinets that he really wanted to build himself, but he has no need or desire for the required tools beyond this one project. He probably would have paid for access to a cabinet shop to do it himself (their local community college closed down their open shop).

BTW I live 1000 miles from my parents, so that wasn't a viable option for logistcal reasons

Our community college has this sort of an arrangement called "Open Shop". $250 per semester gives you access to equipement and an instructor to make something during "Open Shop" hours. Most students are building kitchen or bathroom cabinets. Materials are extra and can be bought at the CC's special bulk pricing.

Key to this idea would be price. I would say a monthly or flat fee would be the best. Say if they are wanting to build a cabinet charge a flat rate to build it in your shop. Materials and consumables would be extra.

Since you can provide materials cheaper than the BORG you would already be at a competetive advantage.

For example, you could have a "kit" to do a TV cabinet. Shop time would be a set fee, and materials say 10-20% above your cost (so you are still making money) and they can come and build it in your shop with some assistance.

Hope that helps, but if you have the right market this could be a nice arrangement for those with a need of access to a cabinet shop.

[Scott Banbury]

I let out my shop for $10/hour, cost of replacement for bunged blades/bits and a six pack of microbrew everytime they come in (they're allowed to drink half of them). ;)

I only do it with woodworkers who I am ABSOLUTELY sure won't sue me and even then I make them sign a hold harmless even though it's legally worthless. Also, make sure that all your equipment has its original safety stickers in place.

I like it, since I can take advantage of the extra arms and back if I'm needing to move logs, lumber stacks, etc.

[Jim DeLaney]

I let out my shop for $10/hour, cost of replacement for bunged blades/bits and a six pack of microbrew everytime they come in (they're allowed to drink half of them). ;)

I only do it with woodworkers who I am ABSOLUTELY sure won't sue me and even then I make them sign a hold harmless even though it's legally worthless. Also, make sure that all your equipment has its original safety stickers in place...

If your insurance company ever finds out your'e doing that, they'll probably cancel you on the spot! They absolutely won't want the liability exposure.

As for only renting to friends who won't sue you... If they get hurt, and require medical treatment, they won't have to sue you. Their medical insurance carriers will sue you anyway to recoup their expenses.

[Rob Russell]

Steve,

You made the point that you want to sidestep the liability discussion, but at some point there are a lot of aspects to that you'll need to consider. OSHA may be another factor.

Some questions to consider:
How would you charge for your consulting time, when a client keeps taking you away from a paying project of your own?
How would you charge for consumables and overhead? You need to consider markup.
How would you measure non-discreet consumables? For example, wear and tear on blades? Your time to manage this?
How would you determine someone's competence relative to useing a paticular tool/machine?
How would you handle damage to your machinery/tools?
Do you really want to get into supplying "materials"? That could put you in the middle based on material problems.
What would you keep for "open shop" hours? Are you ready to open up evenings or weekends if your client works during the day?
Do you have adequate rules setup for shop cleanup?
What is the opportunity cost of this venture? In other words, what will the time and capital requirements be to do this and what would be your change in sales/income if you invested the time/money in another aspect of your business?
Is there a "woodworking club" in your area that you can contact to see how they do things?


It sounds like a neat idea. Post a separate thread to discuss liability, insurance,OSHA and related issues.

If you decide to pursue it, best of luck!

Rob

[Brian Buckley]

Steve,
I think it is a super idea. There are many people who do not have the skill and shop to build something. If they had an experienced instructer to teach them "how to" they would jump at the chance. Many years ago, (between mariages and houses) I would have given my eye teeth for a well equiped shop to rent.Once the word gets out, you will be a busy man.

Brian

[Scott Banbury]

If your insurance company ever finds out your'e doing that, they'll probably cancel you on the spot! They absolutely won't want the liability exposure.

As for only renting to friends who won't sue you... If they get hurt, and require medical treatment, they won't have to sue you. Their medical insurance carriers will sue you anyway to recoup their expenses.
I sure hope they don't find out then, eh? ;)

[Dale Thompson]

Steve,
It's a GREAT idea which I have entertained myself. FORGET IT!! The potential liability is incredible. As has been stated, if your "friends" don't sue you, their insurance company WILL.

Retirement villages sometimes have shops open to their residents. That is also a problem because people leave machines in all stages of disrepair. The complaints received are usually not worth the hassle and the shops are shut down.

As I said, it's a GREAT idea but ALL of your customers will not be "Creek" type folks. :mad: :( :) SORRY!

Dale T.

[Joe Mioux]

If they (the customer) have the lumber and you have the equipment but not the liabilty insurance; why not cut and mill the wood for them and send them on their way.

That way, you have total control over your equipment and not have them interfere with your business schedule.

[Keith Christopher]

Steve,


This is an excellent idea, just be sure and consult a lawyer prior to starting and make sure all is in order. i.e. insurance, waivers ... Don't be discourged by what needs to be done, just do what needs to be done and then do it.


Keith

[Brad Olson]

Steve,


This is an excellent idea, just be sure and consult a lawyer prior to starting and make sure all is in order. i.e. insurance, waivers ... Don't be discourged by what needs to be done, just do what needs to be done and then do it.


Keith

If you talk to a lawyer there is actaully a way that you can get rid of liability risk via setting up different types of companies and so forth (depends on your state if this will work).

My dad is an architect and they do this, so that if they get sued they have no assets to take.

Basically, they own a holding company which owns everything physical, and they own a separate company which leases employees (themselves in this case) to the actual company which does the work. The company which you sign your contract with has few assets and thus if they get sued, there is nothing to take. In addition, the cash flow is such that the company that does the work, keeps no cash reserves. I don't know the details, but they have it set up so that you cannot sue the other companes or them personally for negligence. It is kind of a PITA and they require and accoutnant to keep things going but their risk of lawsuits etc. is very minimal since there is nothing to sue for.

I'm not a lawyer, but one could potentially help you put together a similar situation to minimze your risk.

[Tom Sweeney]

If you can overcome the obvious challenges I think this is a great idea. Back in the old days - before everyone was sue happy & when I was really into cars - an old gas station that no longer used their service bays used to rent out their bays, with lifts, for a very minimum amount of $$. They charged per hour & you could use their air compressor & lifts & things like tire changer & balancer. Even though I worked in a shop at the time I couldn't always get on a lift after hours so I used to use this place fairly regularly. A similar setup for woodworkers would be a real benefit in the right area.

Aside from the not insignificant liabilities the wear, tear & abuse of your equipment would probably be the other big factor to consider. This is definately an idea you want to run by your attorney & insurer first.

Good luck & I hope it works out.

[Arnie Grammon]

If your insurance company ever finds out your'e doing that, they'll probably cancel you on the spot! They absolutely won't want the liability exposure.

As for only renting to friends who won't sue you... If they get hurt, and require medical treatment, they won't have to sue you. Their medical insurance carriers will sue you anyway to recoup their expenses.
If that's the case, then why do we open the doors to our closest friends? Is this a real risk.......opening myself up to the insurance companies cleaning my assets out? I hadn't thought about it much until now.

Arnie

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

I do that with a couple buddies now...none of has everything we need, so we visit the other guy's big sander, big mortiser, etc. It's understood that no money needs to change hands, but we all feel better about 'imposing' if we drop a twenty on the table when we leave. :)

If the insurance can be worked out, I think it's a wonderful idea. Always more fun to work with 'company'...

KC

[thomas prevost]

Had a school teacher friend that tried this. Great Idea, everyone would be banging the door down??? He found for every hour he rented, he spend an equal amount of time picking up cleaning and replacing supplies, not to speak of retuning and sharpening his tools. Noone cleans up the the dust and cutoofs, takes the bit out of the outer and puts it away. Chisels are used for screw drivers and palnes aare set on the tablesaw cast iron. Most who do not own power equipment did not know how to use it so you will probably do 80% of the work. Every tool was Forced to its limit, reducing lifetime.

He found it to be a bummer that everytime he wanted work on his own projects, he had to sharpen the chisel, drill bit, take the bit out out of the router, order a new bit assomeone had chiped it and but it back in the case, or sharpen the the jointer blades as someone had run a piece through with brads or screws in the piece.

He felt he had to charge $40 an hour just to cover his time and tool damage. No liabitiy as he could not get it for his home shop.

Nights and weekends a must. He though he had patience, but had frazled nerves watching people abuse equipment he had scrimped and saved a lifetime for.

[Jim DeLaney]

If that's the case, then why do we open the doors to our closest friends? Is this a real risk.......opening myself up to the insurance companies cleaning my assets out? I hadn't thought about it much until now.

Arnie

I've had two injuries requiring medical treatment (neither one shop related, btw) in the last several years. One at home, and one at a neighbor's, while I was helping hime out.

In both instances, about two or three weeks later, I got a form from my insurance company wanting to know the circumstances of the injury, where it happened, name and address of the 'responsible party' and, if possible, who their insurance carrier was. In both cases, I indicated that the injury happened in my own back yard... BTW, my medical insurance carrier at the time was HealthNet of California.

[Scott Banbury]

Jim,

That's exactly what I mean about folks that ABSOLUTELY won't sue you.

Personally, I try not to deal with ANYBODY that wouldn't take full responsibility for their own actions.

You sound like the kinda guy who I would let use my tools.

Be good!

[Herb Blair]

Steve,
Great Idea. If you can get buy the insurance questions.
I was thinking of coming by and resawing some cherry, but didn't want to impose on you. I'm willing to pay for shop time.

Herb

[Paul B. Cresti]

Steve,
You said to leave the insurance out so I will (there is an awful lot to leave out :D ). I do not know about you but, I have a very hard time lending out my tools to anyone! I just do not know If I could bare to see someone using my machines. I guess I have gotten so use to working alone another person in the shop would be very odd to me, but maybe you are different.

[Rob Blaustein]

Steve,
I would jump at the opportunity if I were in your neck of the woods. Spending a few bucks for a few hours to see how someone else sets up a shop and uses their tools would be invaluable to beginners.
-Rob