Radial Arm Saw ?????????

[Tony Bilello]

I am thinking of buying an older Radial Arm Saw. I build furniture and am not a carpenter. Other than cut-off work, is there any real value in a RAS for a furniture maker?
By the time I build extension tables for it, it will take up quite a bit of space. Cost is not the question.

My questions to other furniture makers are..........

Is it worth the space it takes up?
Will I wonder how I ever got along without it?
How accurate are the cuts in regards to play in the Arm?
How well does it serve for dados.

I can see where it might eliminate a few jigs.

Thanks in advance

[Neal Clayton]

a) more accurate than any modern miter saw, comparable to a table saw for cross cuts. also equally accurate for miters and bevels, which is a huge bonus imo.

b) like any other tool, worth it if you need it, not if you don't ;)

c) for dadoes in long boards, excellent. that's the reason i have one. if you need dadoes in a 5 foot long french door frame or 8 foot long tripled up window frame, you need something to cut those with, RAS is pretty much it absent a huge footprint on your table saw

all that said there are good and bad just like there are with any other tool. i waited and looked for many years before finding a reasonably priced old uni-point, which i am immensely happy with and it serves all my purposes as a more accurate miter saw replacement.

[Harley Lewis]

Tony, over my lifetime of working with wood I have owned 4 different table saws and two radial arm saws. Both cut wood accurately, but you will have to fiddle with the radial arm saw a lot more to keep it in tune. I no longer have a radial arm saw, and my table saw is a Saw Stop. I can do more with the table saw by far, it is safer and in my opinion a lot better for 99% of the work I do. To be honest I cannot think of a function where the radial arm saw does a better job.

Harley

[Neil Brooks]

Tough to argue NEED because ... many of us already have tools in the shop that will do almost everything an RAS will do, and fairly competently.

But ... I recently bought my first -- a 1956 DeWalt MBF (https://picasaweb.google.com/neil0502/1956_DeWalt_MBF_Radial_Arm_Saw?feat=directlink).

I'm starting with mechanical/operational fix-up first, and ... if boredom sets in later ... will do a cosmetic restoration.

What I like about it is ... that it will almost certainly be my go-to for crosscuts and dadoes -- things a good RAS was born to do.

AND ... it's winter, and I was ready for another project. That, and ... the price ($100) was right.

When I'm done, I'll be into it for about $300, and will have a saw that will last the rest of my lifetime, and the lifetime of whoever gets it in my will.

So ... for me ... it's a nice addition to my shop, but ... in much the same way that a $700 used Unisaw would be a nice addition to a shop in which a good cabinet saw already exists.

In other words ... closer to luxury than necessity.

[Tony Bilello]

OK, I'm sold.

I think my Dado Blade will live on the RAS. I use my Dado set quite a bit and now I wont have to be moving it in and out of my table saw. That will save me a lot of time 'resetting' my blades.

If the weather clears up and the roads de-ice, I will be looking at some tomorrow. Anything special I should be looking for in the way of problems?

How safe is cutting a Dado on a 5' board? It looks like it could get scarey. Again, I have never owned a RAS and have only used one for a few times in cross-cutting.

[Steve Schoene]

Since a dado is, by definition, a cross cut operation, it is generally pretty safe. You do want a zero or negative rake on the teeth so it doesn't want to self feed, but barring that you just keep your hand out of the path. For grooves, which run with the grain, the table saw is still the machine of choice.

[Mike Schuch]

I learned woodworking with my father on his 10" Delta turret arm radial arm saw. He has owned that saw for 50+ years! It has moved around the country half a dozen times in that time and it has only been out of alignment once! When he replaced the table on the saw!

I started with a Craftsman and moved up to a Dewalt 12" RAS. I had been looking for a 10" Delta turret arm like my fathers when a 16" RedStar turret arm 7.5hp 3ph saw came a long. The Dewalt was quickly ousted. The RedStar has been my main cutting instrument ever sense. I own a Powermatic 65 10" and a Powermatic 71 12" table saw and all they ever do is RIP.

I firmly believe the reason my RAS is so useful is that it is what I learned on so I always go there first when I need to cut something. I am sure that people who learned woodworking with a table saw as a main cutting instrument will naturally navigate there first and probably not get as much use out of a RAS.

Bigger is definitely better! Not so much for the rarely needed cut capacity but more for the shear mass and smoothness of the carriage. My huge (to me) 16" Redstar with its 7.5hp "old school" motor is a finely tuned precision wood cutter to me. After rigidity the most important feature of a useful RAS is a big table! My preference is for the left side (finish piece) side of the table to be considerably bigger than the right side (off cut) side of the table. I would recommended keeping this in mind when planning how to get the maximum use out of your available shop space.

[Frank Drew]

Tony,

I didn't have the free wall space to spare and so never had one in 25+ years making furniture, but I got a sliding table saw early on and that took care of all my cutting needs. I've used one working in other shops, so know what they can do, but don't consider it a gotta have tool.

And, as Steve notes, you're still going to have to mount dado blades on your table saw if you want to groove a board, or rabbet a long edge.

[Myk Rian]

Nothing beats an RAS for crosscuts and miters. I've never had to re-align my MBF, as Harley earlier said was a problem for him.
A properly tuned and maintained RAS holds its settings.

[mark r johnson]

I had a RAS to do everything for 25 years before I bought a TS. I use mine all the time for miters and cross-cutting on long boards that are not easy on the TS. You can do this on a chop saw but the RAS allows you to do more. I use the RAS for panel cutting with a cutting head. Yes, you can do that on a router, but again this is just a secondary machine that is used when the primary is setup for something else. Don't rule out using the RAS for dado's cutting with the grain. Be careful with deep cross-grain dado's as the blade can grab skip across the workpiece.

In any case I'm glad I have mine and it works great for those secondary tasks.

[Mike Schuch]

My favorite RAS trick is when I am trying to zero in on an off angle. I take a ~1/"8 thick or what ever splinter and put it between the work piece and fence at the appropriate side of the cut. I shave off a whisker or less and test the fit. If it is not quite exact I will move the splinter in a few inches to get that extra few minutes of a degree.

I have never had a chop saw fence long enough to do this.

[david brum]

Tony

To answer your question about which saw to choose, the preferred RAS is a pre 1960ish DeWalt or a turret-style Delta. The beauty of the old DeWalt saws is that the motors can be easily serviced, not an uncommon task if the bearings are 50 years old. The DeWalt saws break down into 5/8" spindle saws which have anywhere from 1/2 hp to "3 1/2hp" on newer saws. These saws use either 9 or 10 inch blades and will interchange with your tablesaw blades. The bigger saws use 1" spindles and can have really big motors. You have to get blades bored to 1" for these saws. Pretty much any RAS which will take a 12" blade or bigger uses a 1" spindle.

Personally, I think the best all rounder is probably the DeWalt 925. They were made around '59-60 and had some improvements over the earlier saws. They use the 5/8" spindle and will accept a dado stack. They are also built like tanks, with full cast iron arm and zero percent plastic. The coolest thing about the 925 is that the motor interchanges with some newer model RASs, so you've got some HP choices if you find a newer saw for really cheap (not hard to do). I believe the 925s and most later models also have a motor brake to slow the blade after shut down.

The DeWalt MBF is another jewel. They were made in the mid to late '50s and are also very, very robust. The motors are a bit weaker on MBFs however, and the upgrade to a newer motor is more difficult.

Oh, make sure to budget for a decent blade. Most any high tooth count, negative rake blade will work, although some are much better. Never, under any cirumstances use a ripping blade or anything similar on a RAS. Those blades account for why many people don't like RASs.

Good hunting. I see these vintage saws all the time on our local CL. If people realized how well these older saws worked, they wouldn't be selling them so cheaply. Lucky us!

[Mike Null]

I've had two RAS. The first a Dewalt back in the mid 70's. I built a lot of things with it and found it to be a good saw. A few years ago a neighbor insisted I buy their Craftsman. It was not near the saw the Dewalt was. It just flat wasn't accurate--almost needed adjustment on every cut. Neither of these saws was the commercial version.

For cross cuts a RAS is superior to a TS; also for dados. I'd look for a commercial saw though. Take care when choosing your blades.

Today I have only a TS and don't really need or have space for a RAS.

[Tom Hammond]

I make a lot of oak bookcases - 48h x 30w x 11d. I use sliding dovetails for joining the fixed shelves to the sides. I use the RAS with a 3/16" kerf 1/4" deep dado and a custom set of stops to make consistent and square relief cuts in the case sides. Then, I use a custom jig to set the backset from the relief for a straightedge before running my dovetail rout through the dado. Works great, has increased accuracy, ease, speed... but does make a mess, even with a vac system attached.

I also made a set of "lincoln log" type building sticks for my grandson. It was a breeze doing the dadoes on the RAS. I ran the dadoes on long, wide boards (in measured positions, of course) then ripped the pieces and crosscut to length. He's got so many pieces now he could build the whole city of Jamestown. Without the RAS, there's no way I would have even tried this.

[Jay Jeffery]

Do you have a chop or miter saw? Do you use it much?
If your first instinct is to cross cut on the table saw, it is less likely that you would use a RAS much.
A RAS is much like a miter saw except that it's motion feels a little more natural and it has lots of adjustments.
So if yo make a lot of repetitive cuts, RAS can be really nice tools to have (assuming you can keep your fingers safe).
If you are good at aligning machines, they can really pur. But if you are not, or if the model you get does not hold alignment, they can be a serious pain.

[John TenEyck]

If you already own a sliding compound miter saw and it sits in a bench or such so that you can easily support long and wide pieces, then you probably don't need a radial arm saw. If you don't own a miter saw already, or the one you have is small or not set up to handle long/wide pieces, then you'll appreciate the robustness, rigidity, and accuracy of a good radial arm saw. I bought a used, old, cast iron arm Dewalt specifically for my furniture making. IMO, it is far superior for cross cutting than a TS. Even a TS with a sliding crosscut sled isn't as good as a radial arm saw when it comes to long parts that would hang off the end of the TS sled. I have my Dewalt set up with 6 feet of cabinet to the left and 4 feet to the right. I have a rear fence built with an adjustable stop block, so repetitive length cuts are easy and consistent. I replaced the motor bearings and cradle bearings on mine when I got it (I paid $175 for the machine, BTW). I threw away the stock Dewalt base because I wanted something bigger, and mounted it to a welded steel tubular frame that bolts under a 10 feet long 1-1/2" thick benchtop. I followed the instruction manual to align everything, and have only had to adjust one setting in over 15 years. A good saw will stay in tune. The spindle on mine is long enough to hold a 3/4" stacked dado set, and it is my preferred method for cutting most dadoes. Miters on wide stock is something the RAS is perfect for, even compound miters are no problem. A RAS allows you to do some things that are hard to do any other way. I maked curved laminations and use the RAS to cut off the ends of the laminated parts such that resultant cut surfaces will sit flat on the floor. This is easy with the RAS head turned horizontal and the laminated part, resting on its mold, sitting on the benchtop. How would you do that on a TS?

If you keep your fingers out of the line of cut you won't cut your fingers off ! Kind of like any machine. RAS's do have a tendency to climb cut, however, so it's important to use a blade with 5 deg rake or less; negative rake is even better. Yes, you will wonder how you ever got along w/o one after you've got a good one set up properly and have used it a little. So if you have the space go find a good old machine. You won't regret it, but if you do, you can probably sell it for whatever you paid for it. Can't say that about a new miter saw.

[Tony Bilello]

I bought an older DeWalt 12"


He had several for sale. The 14" was out of price range and the 16" was way out of my price range considering I dont have 3 phase.

The choice was down to an early 1970's (he thinks) Rockwell or an early 1980's DeWalt. They were $300 each. In both models, the arm had no play. I was really impressed. Brand new $300 Miter Saws have some play, these had none. Everything seemed real solid. They both ran good. I was always a Rockwell/Delta fan but I noticed that on a lot of people rave about the Dewalt, so I decided - The DeWalt. Both were the same price - $300 and equal condition. You can tell they were both 12" solid machines. BTW, the seller had just finished making a new table for it. My test run made the first cut in the table. The way this is set up, I cant imagine it getting out of alignment very often. The seller said it don't

Now it sits in the back of my pick-up locked up in the shop. There was no one to help me unload it. Hopefully, I can get it unloaded Monday. Until then my wife will have to take me back and forth to the shop.

Thanks for all your help.

[Aaron Berk]

I've got such a love for the old DeWalt RAS's that I'd volunteer to help you unload it. Even if that means I'd have one heck of a drive, LOL
I'm a PROUD owner of a Model-GA
Good call on choosing the DeWalt, but you know the rule.

PICTURES
PICTURES
PICTURES

[Tony Bilello]

I'll try to remember to bring camera on Monday.
First thing I'm going to do when I get a chance, which might not be for a month or two is to put this on wheels untill I decide where it will live. The seller just put on a brand new shop made top 6 1/2 " long total. I also have roller stands to get me by for a while. I probably wont have time to mess with it as far as a permant cabinet is concerned untils maybe the fall. The shop is full of customers 'stuff' that needs to go out the door before I play.

[John TenEyck]

Nice score, Tony. I'm sure you will be happy with it. If you leave it on casters, just make sure the stand is rigid enough that the top doesn't twist if your floor is uneven. Put a couple of winding sticks on the top each time you move it to check. If they aren't parallel, shim whatever legs until they are.

Enjoy your better than new saw.

[Neal Clayton]

i was just coming back to this thread to post, that in general look for 12" plus. that's the cut off for "weekend junk" and "pro use" with the later models of these old saws typically. 60s or older models don't suffer from that as much. sounds like you did that already though.

you'll find when you get it set up and perfectly aligned that your plastic/aluminum miter saw will wind up relegated to on-site use only, because it's so inferior to a 30 year old RAS ;). i know mine is, it got replaced by a 60 year old RAS.

[Will Blick]

good responses....
I find that long dados can be cut easily with long Festool rail and router. Simple, fast, safe... of course, that assumes you already have those tools.... so, your MMV...

I agree with others, a rock solid RAS is just that, rock solid, holds square easy, holds 45 consistently, etc. Of course, its not portable either, hence vs. most chop saws.

I think the RAS one claim to fame is for cutting loooong boards of limited length. a 15 ft board is hard to cut down on a TS, hard to support large work. Of course, you can use a circ. saw to do the same, but its much slower and harder to get consistent results. This is why its an ideal saw for a lumberyard, fast, safe, consistent and easily repeatable.

As for redundancy, its prob. the most redundant tool made, as it seems I can accomplish just about anything I want to do on the RAS with other tools. But I can't say the same about the other tools. As always, its a luxury if you have the dollars and space...