BLO over shellac

[Chris Barnett]

Want a rubbed BLO finish on a maple turning, so started by applying coat of BLO, letting it dry, then applied light coat of shellac, just enough to wet the surface. When I was preparing to apply another coat of BLO, thought for a moment then stopped cold...I've messed up by applying a seal coat of shellac. Did I mess up...is it too late for a rubbed (BLO) finish. ....[think I messed up!...wasn't thinking...it was late at night....time to go to bed...was tired...trying to think of any other excuses :D] The hard maple does look good though.

[Scott Holmes]

BLO is not a finish, in and of itself. Sealing it with shellac and then buffing the shellac to whatever sheen you want will be a very nice finish.

[Chris Barnett]

Thanks, just decided that too, and added second coat of Zissners.

[Jim Becker]

BLO is not a finish, in and of itself.

Scott, I unfortunately have to point out that this is a somewhat subjective point, although I can appreciate why you might say that. It's technically incorrect to say that BLO is not a finish simply because many of us actually like to use it as one on certain items. The same could be said if one happened to like dipping a piece of wood in orange juice and letting it dry. (not that most folks would consider that--it might be a finish, but not a very desirable one) And then there are acclaimed pros like Thos Moser who build and sell amazing furniture finished with BLO (and wax) and nothing else. It is, however, very true that BLO as a finish may not provide the desired attributes for many folks and therefore, may not be the best choice. The kitchen table would be a good example. But for a turning...it could be the ideal finish for many pieces if it provides the look that is desired.

[Scott Holmes]

Hi Jim,

I agree with you...

In the future I will say "BLO is not a very durable finish, in and of itself.

- people use BLO to treat (garden) tool handles.

- others use BLO to pop the grain of wood before adding a top coat.

- still others add it to varnish to made an oil/varnish blend

- some even use it on cutting boards (I don't like the smell or the taste on cutting boards)


Better? :)

[Chris Fournier]

Scott, I unfortunately have to point out that this is a somewhat subjective point, although I can appreciate why you might say that. It's technically incorrect to say that BLO is not a finish simply because many of us actually like to use it as one on certain items. The same could be said if one happened to like dipping a piece of wood in orange juice and letting it dry. (not that most folks would consider that--it might be a finish, but not a very desirable one) And then there are acclaimed pros like Thos Moser who build and sell amazing furniture finished with BLO (and wax) and nothing else. It is, however, very true that BLO as a finish may not provide the desired attributes for many folks and therefore, may not be the best choice. The kitchen table would be a good example. But for a turning...it could be the ideal finish for many pieces if it provides the look that is desired.

I think that your use of the qualifier "subjective" is pretty generous Jim!

It takes about 5 seconds to do a BLO search: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linseed_oil. I could go on but as you pointed out our crafts historic and continued use of BLO pretty much says it all.

I have a few pieces of furniture kicking around that are close to 20 years old that were finished with BLO and they look great to this day. An occasional (once every 5 years?) application of paste wax and that soft glow is perfect once again.

BLO gives the craftsmans furniture the same hallmark that handtools do. It's that look and tactile quality that is never expressed by factory furniture.

[Steve Schoene]

It really isn't a matter of subjectivity or preference. The reason I say that is that I am quite convinced that tested with double blind comparisons that no difference in the appearance of an oil/varnish finish and a pure BLO finish could be observed. Scientific testing would also show significantly more protective properties of oil/varnish compared to identical appearing BLO finishes. Thus, if you get something more (protection) and don't give up anything (the look), then it is a matter of logic, not preferences, to say that oil/varnish should be used instead of BLO as a finish.

Show us double blind tests if you say they don't look the same. Moser's choice is based on marketing, not performance.

[Chris Fournier]

It really isn't a matter of subjectivity or preference. The reason I say that is that I am quite convinced that tested with double blind comparisons that no difference in the appearance of an oil/varnish finish and a pure BLO finish could be observed. Scientific testing would also show significantly more protective properties of oil/varnish compared to identical appearing BLO finishes. Thus, if you get something more (protection) and don't give up anything (the look), then it is a matter of logic, not preferences, to say that oil/varnish should be used instead of BLO as a finish.

Show us double blind tests if you say they don't look the same. Moser's choice is based on marketing, not performance.

I've used both BLO and oil/varnish finishes for years and they look and feel different. "See" and "feel" where feel means touch, not feelings or sentiments are objective.

A double blind test is typically used on human subjects where subjective bias is not desirable. The test that you've proposed is objective in nature and the double blind method would not be helpful. More complicated yes but not helpful.

So how do I feel about your above statement Steve? I disagree with you about the appearance of the two finishes but I would tell you that if I were building a table or desk that I would use the oil/varnish finish for the work surface but likely use BLO for the rest of the piece. I agree with you about their different film/protective properties.

All of this testing talk has me thinking that we should develop a "Maslow's heirarchy of films and finishes". On second thought that could get ugly!

[Steve Schoene]

The double blind test is the ONLY way to meaningfully test the appearance factor, which is which is based on human observation and is therefore subjective to a degree. We see and feel what we believe we will see and feel.

[Chris Fournier]

The double blind test is the ONLY way to meaningfully test the appearance factor, which is which is based on human observation and is therefore subjective to a degree. We see and feel what we believe we will see and feel.

You'd be taking the Psych 101 final exam twice if that was your final answer the first time Steve. You have confused Objective and Subjective.

[Chris Barnett]

Interesting discussions, and seems that all points have merit.
I posed the question simply because I was not aware how well the BLO would perform over a previous coating of shellac over a previous BLO coating. My intent was to use BLO as the only finish so that I could add successive coats as warranted due to wear, and have the same coloration as previously achieved. I used the shellac as a routine sealer, and not as a finish. Shortly after doing so, I posted the question, realizing that I had probably erred, because I did not know if additional coats of BLP would let me say, penetrate at all or even stick. That question in my mind is still open, but for my purposes now, need not be addressed since I do expect to be more careful next time.
Thanks for all the comments and for the myriad of possibilities available in all the finishes available and what, yet to be discovered :).

[Prashun Patel]

See whatcha started, Chris?

While there may be minor tactile diffs between a pure BLO finish and an oil/varnish, it is my belief these diffs are insignificant compared to the application technique (how thoroughly you rub off the mixture, what type of abrasives you use, the prefinishing prep, and how many coats you apply).

I've felt some pieces done at Willard Bros in NJ by George Nakashima's grandson. He uses the same regimen as the Master did, and he's an amazing craftsman himself. They've achieved some of the most brilliantly touchable, caressable tops you can imagine using oil/poly blends. While a pure BLO finish may have some differences, to my untrained fingers, it's hard to see how it would IMPROVE the surface at all...

[Michael MacDonald]

prashun -- down boy! no more caressing table tops in public.

the OP was about a foggy-brained oops. Can Chris B. add a coat of BLO after a light coat of shellac? I am not sure... I have used a light coat of shellac to condition wood before a stain to avoid blotching. The stain still has some adhesion. but I figure BLO will probably not penetrate after a coat of shellac, so I would guess that adding a second coat of BLO would have been pointless... and Chris B's decision to follow-up with another coat of shellac was the right approach... He should be able to rub the shellac into a nice glowing finish, though.

Anyone disagree? That is what this thread really needs... more healthy disagreement.

[Chris Padilla]

BLO is not a finish, in and of itself. Sealing it with shellac and then buffing the shellac to whatever sheen you want will be a very nice finish.

BLO is an oil-based colorant. ;)

[Steve Schoene]

No I am not confused in this context at all. Objective requires measurement or observation that is NOT ultimately based on a personal opinion. Saying that the two finishes look the same, or feel the same requires such a personal opinion, just like saying two speakers sound the same. That is exactly the sort of subjective concept that requires double blind testing to be valid. Similarly testing the efficacy of medicines also requires the double blind methodogy. This is just a simple exercise in experimental design.

Now, were you to say that the gloss level was different on the two materials, you would have a proposition that could be tested objectively with laboratory equipment.