Shellac

[Fred Perreault]

I have seen where some turners use shellac as a part of their finishing process. Is this applied while on the lathe, and maybe wet sanded, or does one let it dry and then sand? Also, can you use oil finish over the shellac with success? Does the clear shellac keep the wood from turning amber? Does the shellac "pop" the grain better than other oil finishes? And... can the shellac be used on utility food items?

[Frank Van Atta]

I use shellac almost exclusively, both as a sanding sealer and a finish. One of its advantages is that you can use it over or under any finish - I use a little oil to pop the grain, then apply shellac over it. I have never had any luck wet sanding shellac; I let it dry then sand lightly with 600 or better. You can also rub one or more coats dry with a soft cloth with a little shellac on it and get a pretty good gloss finish with relatively little shellac - just a mini version of "French Polishing," what is sometimes referred to as a "piano finish." It is definitely food safe - that's what is used to give the shine to M & M's. The disadvantage in this area is that it tends to turn cloudy when exposed to water - think of the "rings" caused by wet glasses on shellacked coffee table tops. Most shellacs will lend a slight amber hue to the wood. The "blonde" shellacs are almost clear, but not quite. I use Zinnser's SealCoat, which is a fairly clear dewaxed shellac.

[Fred Perreault]

Frank, would several coats of oil finish seal protect the shellac from clouding up? I guess that I am curious about shellac in the belief that shellac might be a better product for highlighting grain and figure. Maybe that is not the case.

[Steve Vaughan]

Fred, the cloudiness referred to is due to moisture. As stated, definitely food safe, but remember that shellac will be easily damaged by moisture, especially water or anything containing alcohol. However, I'm not sure that the oil finish over shellac is gonna be of any value. Shellac is gonna be a surface sealer/finish, that is, some of it will soak into the wood, with several coats it will fill the pores of the wood, and it's going to sit on the surface of the wood. It can certainly be used as a sealer for wood or simply a finish in and of itself. An oil finish is going to soak deep into the wood and provide a finish that way, and most of them, far as I know, can be top-coated with a laquer or just wax, or maybe WOP. My experience has been to use an oil finish first to really set the grain out, then come back with a surface finish such as either shellac or laquer, or I guess in a WOP. But then again, I'd think the question of which finish is going to be dictated by the final use of the item. Shellac only for a bowl that would potentially hold wet foods? Not good.

[Fred Perreault]

Thanks Steve.... I guess I'm gonna stick with my years old process and be happy. There seems to not be a magic, single coat finish, dang it. :)

[John Keeton]

Fred, you have apparently made your decision, but let me add my comments. I use BLO and shellac as a "pre-finish" on most of my turnings. However, they are not bowls as you do. I usually follow with either lacquer or WOP moreso recently for the reasons previously stated on moisture. Having said that, I have never found shellac to cloud with airborne moisture, but more from standing water the gets past and under the shellac. Shellac does impart a very nice warmth to wood.

[Jeff Moffett]

Thanks for posting these questions, Fred. I've been curious about shellac as well. I recently watched several Jimmy Clewes DVDs and he appears to finish most of his turnings the following way: brushes on a home brew of 40% blonde dewaxed shellac flakes and 60% DNA to serve as a sanding sealer. Then he wipes on some type of finishing oil. From what I'm reading, by applying the shellac first, you might not pop the grain as much? John K., do you apply BLO first and then shellac? Is your shellac full strength or diluted down? Thanks!

[John Keeton]

Jeff, my usual protocol (with exceptions) is to sand up thru 320 dry, and then wet sand with BLO and 400 grit. I do this by soaking the piece really well with the BLO, and then wetting the sandpaper with BLO. Build up a slurry while on the lathe, and then with a paper shop towel buff the slurry into the grain of the wood with the lathe spinning. By this point, the BLO is soaked in fairly well. The Zinnsers SealCoat is applied full strength within minutes - with the lathe spinning. It is a 2# cut of dewaxed shellac, so it is already fairly thin. I will usually apply 2-3 coats, buffing with 0000 between coats, and on the last coat I will spin the piece while burnishing with shavings. The result is a very smooth finish. Usually, I will wait a couple of days before applying more finish - WOP or lacquer. If it is hot and dry weather, then later that day or the following day.

[Fred Perreault]

John, I mix BLO with some of my commercial finishes, or with a wee bit of Poly, some Antique Oil, and some of this and some of that. When the can gets low, I just add some more of this or that. When you use BLO, do you use it outta' the can, or do you thin it some? I have seen what standing water can do to a shellac or alchohol finish. My shellac question was mostly to see how folks use it, and if it pops the grain more than oil finishes. I have never been unhappy with the oil finishes, as they work fine with the grain on burls, crotches and other figure...... it's just that the patient has no patience. :) :) :( :(

[David E Keller]

I basically do the same thing John does. I usually wet sand using BLO with 600 or 800(whatever my final grit is). I let the piece dry for a couple of days or longer. Sometimes I go straight to WOP, but usually I apply a coat or two of dewaxed superblonde shellac mixed about 70/30. I buy my shellac flakes from shellac.net, and they seem to last forever. Another difference between my process and John's is that I apply my first coat of WOP often within 30 minutes of finishing the shellac.

[John Keeton]

Fred, I don't thin the BLO - though I have in the past with flat work. I really cannot tell that thinning it accomplishes anything. Of course, there is less of the BLO when the MS flashes off, but I couldn't tell any difference in color or drying time. I like to apply the BLO with the lathe spinning to create some heat as that accelerates the oxidation/polymerization of the BLO.

David is waiting to apply the shellac over the BLO in order for the BLO to dry, and that is probably the preferable method as the oxidation does require oxygen. I am applying the shellac immediately, and waiting for the BLO to oxidize/polymerize under the shellac. I have done both, and can't tell much difference in the methods in the end.

I do find I get a little bit of lubricating effect when applying the shellac with the BLO being somewhat wet. I have even added a little BLO to my shellac rag before to get a nice smooth flow to the shellac and to keep the rag from grabbing as the shellac starts to flash off.

My guess is that either way gets you to the same place in a couple of days. The colder and more damp the situation, the more I would lean to David's method.

[Fred Perreault]

I tell you it's been an education on a slow day for me. I can't wait for tomorrow.....

[Jeff Moffett]

John, thanks for the additional explanation of your steps. The sequence of the steps still has me curious: BLO then shellac (John K's method) vs shellac then BLO (Jimmy Clewes method). From what I understood on Jimmy's DVDs, for punky or difficult to cut wood, he often uses the shellac to strengthen the fibers of the wood. That helps him get a cleaner finishing cut and allows him to start sanding with a finer grit paper. Even without the need to strengthen the fibers, he still uses the shellac first to seal the wood. Any opinions on whether you'd end up in the same place in a couple of days if you reversed the shellac/BLO steps?

[David DeCristoforo]

I love shellac but I have yet to use it on a turning. But after I get moved I am just itching to try the late Tage Frid's "4F" finish (Frid's Fine,
Fast Finish) It is basically laying on a liberal coat of Watco or linseed oil (not boiled, according to Frid) followed quickly by a 3# cut of shellac applied with a fine bristle brush. When the mixture gets tacky (just a few minutes, you rub out the oil/shellac combo with 000 steel wool.

I have used this on a number of wood objects and I am always amazed at how beautiful a finish it produces with a relatively small investment in time and energy. Needless to say, sanding to at least 400 first is imperative! This finish will buff to a high gloss so I am thinking that it might be the "cat's meow" for turnings where the piece is spinning and the steel wool buffing would be very effective.

If anyone beats me to this, I would love to see the result. Otherwise I will try it as soon as I can after I get done moving. The clock is ticking... you got a couple of weeks to a month at the most...

[Steve Schoene]

An oil finish over shellac is a very bad idea. Oil finishes, such as an oil/varnish mix, need to penetrate and then have all excess removed from the surface. If not it leaves a very soft, almost gummy surface.

Some other points. Shellac might not be good for a bowl to hold wet food, but that the purpose of many turnings? It's not so immediately damaged by water as folks seem to think. (Most of those white rings on furniture are on lacquer, anyway.) On a shellac finished surface I have set a glass of icewater, condensation and all on the outside, and left it til the ice was all melted--perhaps a half hour. No impact at all. You can spill a glass of single malt without damage, though you would see damage if you didn't wipe it up. But you can walk to get a towel, you needn't run. (If you want to test this, don't really use a single malt-even cheap scotch would do. No need to committ sacriledge. The more potent potential to damage shellac is strong alkalai--ammonia or other strong cleaners.

[David E Keller]

John, thanks for the additional explanation of your steps. The sequence of the steps still has me curious: BLO then shellac (John K's method) vs shellac then BLO (Jimmy Clewes method). From what I understood on Jimmy's DVDs, for punky or difficult to cut wood, he often uses the shellac to strengthen the fibers of the wood. That helps him get a cleaner finishing cut and allows him to start sanding with a finer grit paper. Even without the need to strengthen the fibers, he still uses the shellac first to seal the wood. Any opinions on whether you'd end up in the same place in a couple of days if you reversed the shellac/BLO steps?

I don't think Jimmy uses BLO, but some other type of oil. Just about anything that wets or stabilizes the wood fibers will help with a finish cut in punky wood. Mike Mahoney uses his walnut oil to help make the final cuts in a cottonwood bowl in one of his DVDs. You can even use water to help with final cuts, but it would need to dry before moving on to finishing.


An oil finish over shellac is a very bad idea. Oil finishes, such as an oil/varnish mix, need to penetrate and then have all excess removed from the surface. If not it leaves a very soft, almost gummy surface.

Some other points. Shellac might not be good for a bowl to hold wet food, but that the purpose of many turnings? It's not so immediately damaged by water as folks seem to think. (Most of those white rings on furniture are on lacquer, anyway.) On a shellac finished surface I have set a glass of icewater, condensation and all on the outside, and left it til the ice was all melted--perhaps a half hour. No impact at all. You can spill a glass of single malt without damage, though you would see damage if you didn't wipe it up. But you can walk to get a towel, you needn't run. (If you want to test this, don't really use a single malt-even cheap scotch would do. No need to committ sacriledge. The more potent potential to damage shellac is strong alkalai--ammonia or other strong cleaners.

I sort of agree with you, Steve, but with one exception... The shellac step that J Clewes uses does not completely seal the wood, so there is still penetration by the oil. He uses a very thin shellac mixture applied sparingly then follows with a finishing oil for several coats. There's still plenty of oil soaked up into the wood, and the finish has cured for me when I did it the way he does. I've been using WOP instead of a finishing oil lately, but not because the shellac/oil method caused trouble.

[Jon Nuckles]

As a recent convert from flat work to turning, I am trying to apply what I learned in finishing flat work. Oil finishes often result in blotchiness on maple and cherry where the grain runs up to the surface. I forgot that last week and applied BLO to a bowl I had turned. As I should have expected, the end grain areas became very dark and the face grain areas stayed lighter. I didn't like the look at all, so I sanded it back to bare wood. I was thinking about just using shellac to finish it or putting shellac on before BLO to even out the amount that the different grained sections would soak up. This technique works for blotch prone woods in flat work. For those of you who use BLO on bare wood, how do you keep from getting wildly different tones between end grain and face grain?

[John Keeton]

Jon, a lot of times, the more variation in tone, the better - depends on the wood. But, were one using a rather plain piece of cherry and there was concern about darkened end grain, then you could apply a coat of shellac, sand it back, and then do the oil. The end grain will soak up far more of the shellac and act as a partial sealer - similar to sealing the endgrain of a board in flatwork to get a even color when staining. The shellac would sand off the face grain rather quickly.

[John Keeton]

Thought I might update this thread with some information I ran across. Apparently the climate situation in India has created a shortage of shellac and some suppliers are having difficulty acquiring new stock. For whatever this is worth! I did go buy another couple of cans of SealCoat - just to be safe. If you use flakes, you may want to buy some to avoid a situation - or, increased prices.

[Prashun Patel]

I don't find a small amount of 'blotch' with oil to be distasteful. I apply BLO typically because it's a quick and dirty way to get some color and depth into the wood. Having to precondition nullifies the simplicity of the method. I just tend to sand up to 400 or even 600. This burnishes the wood and prevents some blotch, but still allows the oil to penetrate enough to impart color to the top layer.

Using tung oil will also reduce blotch vis-a-vis BLO because it's a lighter hue; it's the color lodging differently in the varying densities of blotchy wood that produces the uneven tone. Lighten the color, and you reduce the blotch - but you also reduce the grain-enhancing properties of the product.