New Finials - Goblet Style Lidded Box

[Tim Thiebaut]

Hi everyone, I took the advice that was given to me and redid the finial on top of this box, please give me your honest opinions on what you think, which of the new ones you like, or if you dont like any of them, I am learning a lot by doing this and dont mind redoing it again if I still dont have it nailed so please let me know what you think is good, or what I should change. I will keep which one I like the best until I hear from you all.

I will post the old original finial first, then 2 pictures of the first new one, then 2 pictures of the second new one, thanks for all of your input, Tim

[John Keeton]

Tim, it appears that both of the new ones are taller than the original finial. I think the first one was actually closer to the correct height. Your embellishments on the new ones are actually larger, as well, and IMO too large. I still think a flowing base on the finial would give a smoother transition from the lid. The union of the lid and finial is too abrupt for me.

Just looking at the general designs, I think I like the elements of the second new one best, but proportioned differently. I would make the bead smaller (about the diameter of the area adjacent to it), and the side shoulders much smaller - proportioned more like the side shoulders of the pedestal bead in relation to the bead itself. Then have a cove base to the finial that would fan out to about halfway to the first groove you have so that the lid flows up into the finial.

On this particular piece, David Keller suggested a knob, and I agree that a knob that sits low and is the shape of the bead on the pedestal would work in lieu of a finial.

Just my opinion - others may not agree.

[Tim Thiebaut]

Yea John I diffenently had a harder time with keeping the proportions in balence on these, and the more I looked at them overnight I keep dislikeing them more and more. One of my problems is tool control with the spindle gouge, wish I had one size smaller. I am going to take it back to the drawing board today and see what I can come up with. I may even turn up a knob and see how that looks as David suggested in the other thread, Thanks again for your input here, Tim

[John Keeton]

Tim, I don't know what kind of gouges you have, but detail gouges work great for finial work. I have a 3/8" and a couple of 1/4" detail gouges that I use. One thing you might try is to take a piece of stock and establish the bottom width - what you want the base of the finial to be. Then establish the length and make a sweeping fair curve to connect the two points. That should establish the maximum diameter of all of the elements. You can then mark off the location of the elements, and starting at the tip, work backward to remove material - forming each element as you go. It may help you get a feel for the flow of the finial. Just remember, you need to leave material on the finial and work from the tip back to the base. When you get to the base, you can undercut it to fit the lid by scooping material with a shearing pull cut with a detail gouge. The spindle gouge may work, but it may also be catchy.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I agree with John advice and will add when working with small finials I like to use a 1/4" round skew along with the Thompson 3/8" detail gouge. I like the first finial better because of it's height.

[Baxter Smith]

Tim, good for you to try the different suggestions and see what you like. Although you wanted a finial, I think with the somewhat rounded shape of the piece, a knob would probably "fit" better.

[Tim Thiebaut]

Thanks for the help from all of you I really appreciate it alot. The smallest tool I have is a 3/8 spindel gouge. I do have a 1/4 detail gouge on order and it finaly shipped yesterday, I think I am going to put this away for a few days until it gets here and then take another shot at it, even if I go with a knob, I think the smaller tool will help me a lot. Thanks again for everything, once the new gouge gets here I will post what I come up with in a few days, for now on to something new! Tim

[Scott Hackler]

Tim, dont discount the use of that 3/8" spindle gouge. That size is my "go to" for my super thin ornament pendants and for finial work. I just increased the grind angle to make a sharper taper. I have a small 1/8" detail gouge but only use it for the super delicate tip designs (into the 1/16" range).

For finials (while starting out doing them) I like to envision a drop of water on a string. Nature provides the best proportions and I just try to mimmic them with a little artistic addition. Wider at the base and a taper going up is USUALLY the norm, that gives the eye a graceful line to follow along the whole profile.

[Tim Thiebaut]

Hey Scott, oh there is no way I would do away with my 3/8, I use it for many things! But right now I can only seem to get so tiny with it, I know its a matter of practise which I love doing but after about 8 finials...I didnt post the flops, I have become somewhat frustrated with it and sometimes it is best to walk away for a few days and then come back to it with a clear mind. I have done that with other things before in my life, trying to crack a certain safe that was stuborn and giving me fits, came back a few days later and it opens right up ya know, so in this case the break until the 1/4 gets here will do me some good I think. What is the angle you put on yours? I am useing the grind that came on the 3/8 I have now, I dont have anything to measure the angle of grind yet but I am ordering a set of raptor guages in a few weeks so that will help with repeat angles. Thanks for your help Scott, Tim

[Scott Hackler]

Tim, I forgot to add a few thing to the finial disscussion. First off the wood (at least for me) is a very important choice. I prefer very hard and dense woods. The tighter the grain the better. I am a giant fan of African Blackwood, but it can be a little expensive. I bought the last batch in a 70lb lot, just to bring down the individual cost. Softer woods and open grain woods are more difficult to turn thin. They also dont show fine details quite as good.

I don't know of your particular turning process but most finial turners will start at the tip (at tailstock) and work their way towards the chuck. Support is the key and a thin turned finial has none. So either use a very hard wood or support the thin finial with one hand while turning with the other.... or both..!!

I struggled with going thin, at first, just because I could see that I wasn't thin enough yet. So I started taking a break from the form and coming back. This gave my eyes and brain a chance to see where I was in the process. My signature line is just from that process. I just started to tell myself "no, its not thin enough yet". Works for me.

BUT, all finials are not created equal and where I prefer a super delicate finial, other people like a little girth. Some like the traditional form with an "onion" at the bottom and others mix it up to creat thier own style (see Keith Burns' exclamation point style).

As far as the grind on my tool.... hmmm I dont know for sure, but its similar to a skew. In fact most time its used similar to a skew, but this gouge is suppose to be a spindle gouge and it is really flat to start with (Sorby). I have a 3/8" detail gouge from Doug Thompson and it doesn't have near the radical grind, but works very well. I just haven't made a handle for it yet.

Lastly, if you get ot turning delicate style finials, the tools NEED to be razor sharp and practice... practice...practice.

My first finials were were the size of my pinky and looked like a fingure with a ball on the knuckle. I was so proud at the time, but a year later, I regularly go to 1/16" or less and have taken on this style as "my" form. Like I said before though, everyone is different, so make a form unique to you.

Hope this helps.

[Tim Thiebaut]

Hi Scott, I thought about useing a different wood for the finial but as was suggested to me the darker wood might become the focus and take away from the box since it would be just the finial in the darker/harder wood and I agree it would have. I will get this, I am pretty stuborn..lol...but will give it a couple days and give it another shot when the 1/4 detail gets here. I do want to order some thompson tools as you have BADLY but just cant afford them right now on my fixed income, but as soon as I can I will start ordering some from him even if it is just one tool at a time! I do want to get to the point where I can turn some very fine and delicate finials and you, John and so many others here do if I have to do nothing but finials for a month I will get there.

Thank you for all of your input here Scott it means a lot to me and I will take it all to heart as I will for everyone above that has helped me here also, Tim