Popular vs Maple for paint grade office cabinets

[scott vroom]

I'm building office cabinets for my brother's home office, typical uppers w/doors, and drawer bases. The cabinets will be painted with a GF poly. Cost is an issue on this job and I'm debating the following:

1) Popular or Maple for the face frames, door rails & stiles, drawer fronts
2) MDF vs maple for the raised panels (std coved edge).

BF cost for 4/4 S2S 1E in my area: Hard Maple $3.85; Popular $1.90

I'm thinking that the base cabinets, which tend to take more abuse than uppers, need to be maple face frames/rails/stiles. I can probably get away with poplar on the wall cabinet face frames/rails/stiles. I have no problem using MDF for the door raised panels

Anybody have a stong opinion on this? The cost difference would be in the hundreds. I can talk my brother into spending more if Poplar is a bad choice even for wall cabinets.

EDIT: I just spoke with my local supplier and he' s suggesting Common Soft Maple ($2.10 bf) as a low cost alternative to Poplar. I'm going to look at his stock today to see if it's acceptable. It has some knots; if they're smooth & tight I might go with it for paint grade. Comments welcomed.

[Frank Drew]

Scott,

I think poplar would be fine for paint grade on both uppers and lowers unless you anticipate a great deal abuse to them; on the other hand, there really won't be so much material in just face and door frames that even the doubled price per foot for maple will add up to all that much.

[David Weaver]

Poplar should be fine, is there any reason to worry about dents or strength?

I haven't painted anything other than poplar and cherry, but I would rather have soft maple than either of those that you mention. What kind of knots are you talking about, big tight ones with cracks, or little pin sized ones that won't need any putty? I'd hesitate on anything larger than pin size because if the wood moves, they'll telegraph through the paint. I've never gotten anything other than FAS soft maple, so I don't know what the knots look like.

[scott vroom]

Scott,

I think poplar would be fine for paint grade on both uppers and lowers unless you anticipate a great deal abuse to them; on the other hand, there really won't be so much material in just face and door frames that even the doubled price per foot for maple will add up to all that much.

The cost difference between poplar and hard maple for just the faceframes/stiles/rails is about $200. I agree for many folks not a huge sum.

[Jay Brewer]

I prefer Soft Maple to Poplar for paint grade work, especially if the price is close to the same as it is here. Poplar does not have as tight a grain as Maple, requiring more coats to get a good build. Some Poplar is very dark, requiring even more paint to get full coverage. Maple will also be less likely to dent or ding up.

Hope this helps

[Steve Griffin]

Another factor is your tooling. If you don't have a wide belt sander, then that's another strike against hard maple--you are much more likely to get some chipout which will need filling.

A plus for poplar is that it absorbs paint well. It might ding easier, but you might be more likely to scratch off paint with maple.

I have a slight preference for soft maple, but have no problem using poplar. I can't think of one reason not to use MDF for the panels though.

Stability wise, if you have large doors I'd give the advantage to poplar. Hard maple is much more likely to warp on you.

-Steve

[Chip Lindley]

Soft maple is NOT that soft. It will hold up better to small abuses than popular will. It will also hold screws or fasteners better. Soft maple is very overlooked as a good cabinet wood.

[Jeff Duncan]

Soft maple all the way. Much heavier, durable, and stable than poplar. For panels mdf is fine, cheaper, more stable, and with the right schedule paints very well.
Poplar is best for moldings and non-structural elements IMHO.
good luck,
JeffD

[David Hostetler]

I tend to agree with the suggestions to go with Maple, however the idea of worrying so much about the quality of the material and then wanting to use MDF for the raised panels makes me scratch my head... That makes no sense...

[Steve Griffin]

I tend to agree with the suggestions to go with Maple, however the idea of worrying so much about the quality of the material and then wanting to use MDF for the raised panels makes me scratch my head... That makes no sense...

In what way would MDF be inferior for paint grade panels?

-Steve

[David Hostetler]

Durability. MDF in my experience dents and chips easily, yet the OP seems to be concerned with durability of the cabinets...

[Carl Civitella]

Poplar, they paint it for a reason..It holds paint well. I would not want any knots, they bleed no matter what you do. Carl

[David Werkheiser]

I would use soft maple instead of poplar, I am paying $2.30 bd.ft. in S.E. Pa. I see no problem using MDF for the panels if the ramps are sanded and primed twice before assembly. If you look at the cabinet door industry, few if any use poplar for door construction as it is not as stable as maple.
David Werkheiser

[Ole Anderson]

I vote for soft maple and MDF. Did all the kitchen cabinet doors in my son's home with that combination. Painted airless spray with SW premium latex enamel, it is self levelling. Only problem I have had with MDF raised panels is the area cut by the router is a softer surface and needs to be sealed well or you will really raise the grain if you prime with a latex. I have used a watered down woodworkers glue, half and half, to seal the cut areas.

[Marc Myers]

Poplar is usually considered the lumber of choice for paint applications. However, all good paint jobs regardless of material, start with at least 2 coats of a good quality primer. A good painter can make just about anything look good if the paint job is done correctly.

[Chip Lindley]

In what way would MDF be inferior for paint grade panels?

-Steve

Aside from fragility issues with thin cross-sections (raised panel tongue), MDF needs priming before painting to fill exposed fibers after milling. Several coats are needed because MDF profiles sucks up liquids like a sponge--much more than the smooth surface. IMO, use more soft maple for your panels and enjoy very little prep before painting.

[Steve Griffin]

Aside from fragility issues with thin cross-sections (raised panel tongue), MDF needs priming before painting to fill exposed fibers after milling. Several coats are needed because MDF profiles sucks up liquids like a sponge--much more than the smooth surface. IMO, use more soft maple for your panels and enjoy very little prep before painting.

Having made hundreds of flat and raised MDF panels, I have yet to experience "fragility" issues. I would need a vise grips and big hammer to break off a 1/4" tongue, and it's certainly stronger than maple tongue which could break with the grain (though maple is stronger on the cross grain ends).

As far as soaking up primer and paint, I consider that a plus. Just like poplar, it takes paint and holds it like a banshee.

I'd use MDF for the entire door if I could, but it's true the butt grain takes more work to fill, and sharper outside corners are not as strong.

-Steve

[Steve Griffin]

Poplar is usually considered the lumber of choice for paint applications. However, all good paint jobs regardless of material, start with at least 2 coats of a good quality primer. A good painter can make just about anything look good if the paint job is done correctly.

Excellent point.

And if money is a concern, why are we painting? I can produce clear finished hickory or cherry cabinets often cheaper than painted. Of course, if labor is not important, then painting is the way to go.

-Steve

[Ole Anderson]

Excellent point.

And if money is a concern, why are we painting? I can produce clear finished hickory or cherry cabinets often cheaper than painted. Of course, if labor is not important, then painting is the way to go.

-Steve

That may be true, although I would argue about the cost of Cherry cabinets, but some people just prefer the look of an opaque finish.

[Mike OMelia]

Poplar is most def softer than maple... but you are going to paint these! If dents and dings are a concern, use a hard wood that is not as expensive as maple (for the stuff where people and things can come into damaging contact). Like oak. MDF? Really?

Mike

[scott vroom]

I'm no longer considering poplar. For the paint grade office cabinets I'm currently building I'm going with maple face frames, stiles, rails, drawer fronts, and MDF for all coved raised panels. BTW select & better soft maple is the same price as S&B hard maple in my area (Macbeaths Hardwoods, SF)....go figure. I'll use the hard maple - I've got Byrd cutters on my planer and jointer. I don't agree that MDF dents easier than Poplar. The poster may be confusing MDF with particle board? And, after running an experiment, I agree with David that it's best to prime and sand the coved MDF at least twice prior to assy....the milled cove REALLY sucks up the primer and presents mucho raised whiskers. Much easier to sand before assembly.

I don't know what type of equipment you guys are using for you raised panels. I've got a PC 7518 hooked up under a woodpecker lift and I'm getting MUCH smoother cove milling with the MDF vs maple. Maybe the guys with the heavy duty shapers wouldn't agree? I dunno. Anyways, thanks to all for the feedback....very helpful.

[Steve Griffin]

Sounds like a plan.

But after all this, how bout a few pictures once you are done!

Steve

[David Werkheiser]

I agree with Steve on charging more for painted (sprayed) over a natural finish. The amount of labor involved to get a blemish free finish is unreal. Two other things that I found with painted is to cull out any curly lumber and see if you can find "double refined" for the MDF panels.
David

[Jeff Duncan]

Top 10 reasons why MDF can be a better painted panel....
1) no milling hardwood for the blanks
2) no gluing up panels with multiple boards
3) easier to machine, cuts like butter and does not tear-out. (though it does dull knives pretty good!)
4) has a harder face than than poplar or soft maple...(don't believe me, try denting a piece of each for yourself with your fingernail!)
5) lighter in weight than hardwood (if you use ultralight)
6) easier to sand than end grain hardwood on the milled portion.
7) takes paint very well if primed correctly.
8) painted panels don't move, so no cracks over time at the panel edges.
9) no checks, mineral streaks, knots, or other defects to worry about
10)cheaper than solid wood

I know the purists may scoff, but logically it's hard to argue against mdf.


Why painted is less expensive....well for one it's easier to finish paint grade. Mistakes can be hidden instead of re-made. Less expensive materials can be used so the product is more affordable. I spray both clears and pigmented finishes, and they both present their own challenges....but pigmented wins for ease at least in my shop.

As for cherry being cheaper....I can't see it unless you happen to get the actual material cheaper than paint grade material. I'm just finishing up a set of bookcases and the materials are almost double what paint grade would have cost. You may have an extra coat in the finishing, but I can't see it making up that difference?

good luck,
JeffD