Need advice - flattening the sole of a jointer plane

[Brian W Evans]

I recently acquired a 1930's era Stanley #7 that's in very good condition. The sole looks like it could use a little work and I'm wondering how to go about it. My initial thought was to get a piece of float glass and stick a few pieces of sandpaper to it. When I looked into buying the glass, it seemed expensive (I wanted it to be 1/2" thick with polished edges). How would you flatten the sole?

[Nigel Tracy]

Best way IMO: adhesive sandpaper (one long strip is best) on a known-flat surface such as a jointer table, table saw, etc... and then just add elbow grease :)

[Jim Koepke]

Brian,

When you say the sole looks like it could use a little work, what exactly do you mean by that?

A jointer is a little more forgiving of not having a flat sole than a smaller plane like a smoother.

My solution was to buy a 4' by ~6" piece of scrap granite from a monument maker (grave stone carver). He charged me $25 for the piece. A bench was made for it based on a tall saw horse.

180727

There is also a Youtube video of me using it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtmWSkD_fU

It is kind of funky and very basic.

That plane did not need much lapping or fresh sandpaper would have been used.

You should also check often because the paper will tend to wear quickly. If the center of the sole is high, then it will tend to stay high if you are not paying attention to how the sand paper is wearing. I bought rolls of PSA (Pressure Sensitive Adhesive) backed 80 grit paper for this purpose. I have finer grits but find the sole of a plane doesn't need to be like a mirror.

This bench also gets used for cleaning up chisels and plane blades. They can get uncomfortable to hold pretty quick with a 4' stretch of abrasive.

jtk

[Jim Belair]

Flattening a jointer can be very tough. There is a lot of metal to remove and you can make it worse than when you started. The length makes it hard to ensure even pressure. See Chris Schwarz's blog on the issue.
http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/Plane+Soles+Ham+Hands+Make+Iron+Bananas.aspx

Jim B

[David Weaver]

If you want glass, go to a glass supplier and ask for a thick glass shelf. It will be FAR cheaper than getting a custom piece of float glass.

My shelf was $20, and the guys rounded the corners off for me. I had previously paid an embarrassing amount for a custom piece of tempered 12x18 float glass to flatten stones, before every tom, dick and harry had cheap granite plates (or at least before I was aware of them).

With glass, the underlying surface needs to be flat or very close, so advantage to jim's piece of granite.

[Don Dorn]

Flattening a jointer can be very tough. There is a lot of metal to remove and you can make it worse than when you started. The length makes it hard to ensure even pressure.
Jim B

I agree - the best I could get out of mine was .002 which really wasn't bad. However, deciding I wanted a flatter sole and knowing the issue of attempting it was a #7, I bowed out and simply bought a Veritas LA Jointer. As they say "they lived happily ever after".

[Terry Beadle]

The jointer plane should be taking ( normal use ) about 3 ~ 4 thou shavings. If you hold a qualified straight edge up to the sole of the plane and can't put a 3 thou feeler gauge between it and the sole, then I'd try the plane out before investing any more sweat equity. A jointer can work beautifully even when there seems to be quite a bit of light between the straight edge and the sole. The human eye can detect gaps of less than 2 thou and it will seem quite wide. Give the #7 a go before you do metal work on it.

If you have a convexity issue with the #7, then I'd use a belt sander very carefully on it until I could get dead flat or a concavity. You shouldn't have a twist issue but it's possible. I suggest careful use of a hand held belt sander vs rely-ing on a coarse grit paper on cast iron table saw's which has a lot of sweat equity. However, if you don't have a portable sander then I'd recommend using a one direction push stroke on the sand paper and not a back and forth stroke. The one direction stroke will give better true results IMO. Check the sole frequently as you work.

Again, the #7 shouldn't need a dead flat sole to do good work. Most older #7's are a bummer to get dead flat and its really not worth the effort if you just look at the gap issue alone.

[David Weaver]

It's really not that hard to avoid what Chris is talking about with a jointer. Ideally, you want it to be ever so slightly convex (toe and heel slightly higher than the mouth, like as in a few thousandths) if you intend to use the plane for more than heavy jointing work.

The only important thing to have is a very flat surface and a *very* straight straight edge. Some folks will not want to make that monetary outlay (about $65 for a plain edge steel 24 inch starrett IIRC).

The key with a jointer is to check it fairly often and to put your hands on it where the metal needs to be removed. It is a skill to learn, but it is not a difficult skill.

stories about beginners ruining a plane somewhere seven states over shouldn't be confused with the norm or what you can expect if you think and use your hands, eyes and brain together.

When I have lapped mine, I have stopped before it was "right" before just because the jointer didn't need to be a smoother (i have always felt very guilty when i sold those, but do mention that if someone wants to use them as a smoother, there is not much work left to do to get them there), but I have taken them all the way, too. The most accurate way to do it quickly is to push the plane only on push strokes and apply hand pressure selectively, and check. If you want to go over the top, you can put a reference fluid on a flat surface, put the plane on it and then turn the plane upside down and work the reference off with a small wooden sanding block untill you get a good print covering the entire bottom surface.

HOWEVER, all of this is just talk and experimentation and is not necessary, if the bottom of a plane is "not right" and its affecting your work, anyone here has the skill to fix it, and generally with a roll of stick-on 80 grit aluminum oxide paper and a $20 glass shelf.

[Johnny Kleso]

Good place to check is a Granite counter top maker and ask for a scrap..

I start with 100 grit and go up to 220..

You can also buy a Enco 12x18 Surface Plate 85 lbs on sale 50% off for $39 and free shipping
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INLMKD?SIITEM001=640-0120&SIQTY001=1&SICOUNT=1
Use promo code: FSMCP for Free UPS Shipping*
Order must be $25 or more for this month

Thats what I use..

PS:

[David Weaver]

i hope enco never checks their loss on an item by item basis (i got the same 12x18 plate a while ago).

[Brian W Evans]

Thanks for all the help. When I say the sole looks like it could use work, I mean that a preliminary check with a good straightedge showed some light that appeared uneven across the sole. I also mean that it looks like the sole could be smoother and I'd like to polish it up. Finally, I also have some other old planes I'd like to tune.

I asked about the float glass because I am operating under the following assumptions:


The lapping surface needs to be longer than the plane (which leaves out my 9x12 surface plate).

Tempered glass (e.g. glass shelves) is often warped to some degree by the tempering process and therefore should be avoided.

Granite from a countertop/gravestone place is not necessarily flat, either, since flatness is not really their goal.

Float glass is cheaper than even the cheap 24" surface plates that Grizzly sells, and is light enough that I could actually lift it.


Are these assumptions correct?

Thanks again for the thoughtful replies.

[David Weaver]

1) yes, much longer. One 40 inches long or longer is nice to have.
2) not sure. I don't know if my shelf is tempered, I know my 12x18 piece of glass is. I can't get a .0015 feeler between a starrett edge and any spot on either of those as long as the bench is clean (one piece of 60 or 80 degree sandpaper grit can easily flex the glass enough to get the feeler under it - make sure the bench is *always* clean).
3) you would have to check. There have been several folks on forums over the years who have gotten countertop material and then flattened it. It looked like a nuisance.
4) pretty much all thick glass is float glass. Whether or not it's cheaper depends on which costs less (!). 24 inches is not a large enough surface plate to flatten a jointer plane practically. You will get better and much faster results if you go with a longer surface.

[Jim Paulson]

I second David's comment about having a precise straightedge. I recently purchased a 2 foot precision straightedge (from Rockler I believe) and to me that probably is critical to any serious flattening effort. They aren't cheap, but it is money well spent.

I wouldn't attempt flattening a metal joiner plane for the reasons that others have mentioned.

Many of you have done far more surfacing than me, but I am down to using the thickest piece of glass that I could get for surfacing a jack plane. I gave up on using the top of my table saw or the joiner bed. Instead of using a belt sander, I am getting into draw filing to remove the high spots on my current jack plane project. On my Bedrock plane I'm scared about possibly cutting away too much metal. But I also admit it takes some practice to have a nice and consistent filing stroke.

The precision edge and a feeler gauge can definitely help you get there. The last thing I want to do is work the plane bottom over something with less tolerance than what I striving for. That is what I like about buying a granite plate, as they give you a record of the tolerances of the surface. My granite plate is too small for surfacing a jack plane, but it seems the way to go.

Jim

[Jim Koepke]

Granite from a countertop/gravestone place is not necessarily flat, either, since flatness is not really their goal.

True, but bring along a straight edge to check.

It all depends on how the stone is polished. Some machinery will make a flat surface just because that is how the machine works. Some will do a wavy or uneven surface because that is how the machine works. At least that is what the guy I bought mine from said.

Those stones have an almost mirror polish. Defects will be easy to see.

Lapping the sole of a plane is a lot of work and may be of no use if the plane isn't in need of lapping. It could actually cause problems if care is not taken.

If you plane is working well, then I would advise leaving it alone. It is too easy to do something that can not be undone.

If you want a sole that is perfect to 0.0005", then hire the services of a good machine shop.

jtk

[Johnny Kleso]

Float Glass is as flat as they surface you place it on.. Place it on a warped table you glass is warped unless very thick..
Counter tops and gravestones are much flatter and most items you will find other than a surface plate..

Longer is better: but you dont see many 40" planes to plane 30" table tops and 22" planes do a fine job on long boards..
These planes plane wood! Wood warps with one bad day of weather..

Those that say dont flatten the sole of a plane I guess might be right, if you cant flatten a board with a plane you should not try flattening the plane either.. I dont think you can really kill a plane unless it is in bad shape before you started, it takes a lot of work to remove a lot of metal with sandpaper..

Note: blue the bottom of the plane before working it with a drymarker to see what your starting with and what your doing while sanding..

Place the plane sole down on your surface plate and push down on the toe, then tap the heel with your fingers in a pecking motion and listen to see if you hear a tapping.. If you do the plane is not flat.. You can also try a piece of soda can (.003) cut with scissors or a feeler gauge while holding just the heeel or toe down and see if you can fit it under the plane..

[David Weaver]

The 40" isn't because you want a longer plane than 22, but because it is much easier to keep a 22" plane on the abrasive if you have a stick down abrasive the entire length and use that length.

I forgot to comment on one thing above - i have not seen a table saw flat enough that I would want to use float glass on it. I have measured only one very long jointer, and that was a DJ20 where the ends were out .002" I would consider that flat enough.

BUT, i would much rather have a wooden bench top that I could plane flat, and then put the glass on it. It's not that every area on that surface may not be more than .002" out, but you have control over the surface and you can use your straight edge to make sure that once you've got a good place to put the glass that it's firmly bedded on the wood and with no gaps on any part of the glass when you put hand pressure on it.

Trust me on this, it is much much much nicer to lap the sole of a plane on a 40 inch (my shelf is 42) surface than it is on a 24 inch surface. You can pretty much bear your weight down on it and run it through a stroke with a large part of the stroke having the entire surface of the plane on the lap. It makes lapping a #7 something that can be done fairly painlessly, and the stroke is much more consistent than swashing back and forth - the stroke can be exactly the same each time you do it, and that leads to better results.

It's not so easy that you would want to make a living doing it, but it isn't as bad then as people make it out to be. I have trouble with 8s, and the ones i've done i put on a reference fluid and then turned them over and sand the with a hardwood block and 60 grit paper (both 8's i've had had major problems, or I wouldn't have done them at all). If I was 50 pounds more, i'm convinced that lapping an 8 wouldn't be an issue, either. it is just easier to make it dead flat with a reference surface, marking fluid and a block. I have tried scraping,too - it is a waste of time for the precision you need with a plane. You can remove material much much faster with a 2x3" block of wood and 60 grit paper - and easily do a #8 that is way out in about 2 hours, including 20 or 30 minutes of time to lap the entire thing to bring the bottom into uniformity once you have the bottom about the way you want it from the spot removal.

The longer it takes, the more likely a screwup from fatigue.

It does take a bear of a long time to do a long steel infill plane that's just out of draw filing and has all kinds of undulations on it from peining, but the reward is much better than a common bench plane.

[Steve knight]

good advice here. Also you need to change the paper often. This is the biggest key. the paper will always were in the middle more so the sides and ends will cut faster and give you a nice curve. with blue zirconia as soon as I felt it was not cutting as fast I would change it. say 5 to 10 minutes max. a strong magnet wrapped in a baggy or a paper towel is good to clean the dust off. the large the surface the slower the paper will wear. I used to use zirconia sanding belts.
It was nice with I had a 24"x36" surface plate I wold have sheets of zirconia cut to fit it.

[Jim Paulson]

Also you need to change the paper often. This is the biggest key. the paper will always were in the middle more so the sides and ends will cut faster and give you a nice curve. with blue zirconia as soon as I felt it was not cutting as fast I would change it. say 5 to 10 minutes max. a strong magnet wrapped in a baggy or a paper towel is good to clean the dust off. the large the surface the slower the paper will wear. I used to use zirconia sanding belts.

Steve,

Thanks for weighing in on this topic. I know that you've said this before on other threads too. What you said here makes so much sense.

Can you suggest some good sources for sanding belts, i.e. zirconia, that offer suitable performance for that 5-10 minutes of cutting time? I'll plead ignorance here a bit, but I've been using rolled aluminum oxide self adhesive sandpaper from Klingspor. Some of my frustration has probably come with me using the paper too long so that I get that extra .oo2" being cut at the ends when the center of the paper is already past its prime.

Jim

[David Weaver]

Jim - al ox, in my opinion, is just as good as blue zirconia alumina paper for the simple reason that the zirconia is just about magical on a power sander, but it is not durable at slow speed and high pressure (which is what you're doing when you're lapping). The smarts wears off of it just like it does al-ox.

The easiest way to avoid what steve is talking about with the middle wearing out is to just get a long shelf and only put one strip of 4 inch wide self adheisive paper down the middle all the way to the ends. Paper that is not stuck down will dub the front and the back of the plane a little (makes no difference in use, but some don't like the way it looks).

Keep an old plane blade around to scrape off adhesive clean to the glass each time you pull the paper up, a little bit of stuff always stays behind. That way, you won't have to dribble mineral spirits, etc around.

I have been getting my rolls of 4 inch al-ox paper at supergrit (mirka brand) , which is literally 5 minutes from my parents, but they ship and have good prices.

The other good thing to do is get a bargain box from klingspor. There will probably be whole belts in it, 20 pounds of paper, a lot of it coarse depending on what box you order. You can use those to do most of the rough work on a plane that has a lot of twist or something on it. My box had a whole bunch of scrap in it (i still haven't finished it off in 4 years) and about 30 72 inch long 60 and 80 grit belts to snip and lay out flat on the glass. You can hold them down at the back end of your lap/glass with a spreader clamp (like a jorgy 3416), and they only dub the plane very lightly on the very front tip.

That said, even if you only use the stick-on paper, it's not more than $5 worth of paper to lap a large plane.

Also, when you lap a long plane, you're always going to have that little bit of dubbing at the end, and preferably, just a couple of thousandths of nose and tail proudness vs. the mouth. that makes the plane nicest to use for a user, you're ensuring that any tiny bit out of flatness is biased in the way you would want it to use the plane for a continuous shaving on a flat surface.

[Dale Sautter]

Another option you might consider: TableSawTom (http://www.tablesawtom.com/plane.htm). Never used his service before but have read many that have were very happy with the results.

[David Weaver]

By all accounts, he does a good job, but it is an expensive option considering you pay shipping both ways as well as a considerable charge on planes that are the hardest to lap (and the ones you'd most want to have done).

If you get a replacement iron, you are getting to the point where from a resale point of view, it makes sense to just buy a premium plane - especially since the premium planes do not have fragile castings.

If anyone is going to shuffle through a pile of old planes or make their own, it is well worth the $20 for a thick glass shelf and $20 for a roll of stick-on paper. A lot of things in woodworking are difficult. Lapping a plane is much easier to do properly than a lot of woodworking operations, it's certainly easier to execute properly even than something basic like a tidy set of through dovetails.

[James Taglienti]

Try the plane! Get a couple 4-5 foot long boards and join them. If they mate up nicely, then why bother eith the sole?

[David Weaver]

Try the plane! Get a couple 4-5 foot long boards and join them. If they mate up nicely, then why bother eith the sole?

Yes, this first, before all the rest of this.

[Jim Paulson]

If they mate up nicely, then why bother eith the sole?

Heh Jim,

LOL thanks for the great sermon illustration, "why bother eith the sole[soul]" Sorry I couldn't resist. Heck, I even try to redeem tools.

Rev Jim

[Dwain Lambrigger]

I still think you will get a good value, and save at least $100. to $200. in the process by using Tom's services. You also have the opportunity to WORK with your plane. I can't disagree about the fragile castings, but there is a real middle ground out there for people who may be willing to spend $90.00 for the grinding and shipping while saving $100 to $200 for a premium plane.

Just my thoughts.

[Brian W Evans]

Thanks to all who have responded. I think I'll try the plane on some actual wood and see what needs doing before I open my wallet.

Thanks again.

[James Scheffler]

I agree with some of the earlier commentators in that you don't need perfection in a jointer, and you should try and see how it works before spending too much time on the sole.

I have lapped a number of planes with sandpaper stuck to glass. Recently I was frustrated with the process and ended up grabbing a file to hit one particular spot. I discovered that files rock for adjusting plane soles! If you have a good straight edge, you can look for the trouble spots and hit them pretty precisely with the file. You end up taking off the minimum amount of metal to get there, and you won't mess up (surprisingly easy to do when you're lapping a plane) and make it worse.

I would say the file won't be good enough for a smooth plane, but might be all you need for a jointer.

Jim S.

[Jim Paulson]

Heh Jim,
I agree with much of what you said, especially the benefits of careful filing on the high spots. However, once a person owns a decent straight edge, i.e. a precision straight edge and a feeler gauge, it makes perfect sense to check the sole for flatness.

Having said that, I have an old Bailey jointer that consistently planes well and I haven't had the need to check it. But maybe I will now so that I can possibly be more efficient in my planing. I am always striving to be better and why not? Then the next question is: how much variance from straight along the length of the sole matters? How much of my hoped for improvement is about the plane I own and how much is about my ability to use it.

Food for thought,
Jim

[Joel Goodman]

I picked up a very helpful tip from this forum -- can't remember whom I should credit. Use a magnet covered in paper -- I found aluminum foil works even better as a covering - to clean off the filings from the paper. Don't touch the covered magnet to the paper just pass it close by above. Works like magic. The paper stays clean and I believe that helps both with speed of lapping, the paper life, and with avoiding problems with "out of flat lapping". To clean the magnet just unwrap it over the trash.

[Dale Sautter]

I picked up a very helpful tip from this forum -- can't remember whom I should credit. Use a magnet covered in paper -- I found aluminum foil works even better as a covering - to clean off the filings from the paper. Don't touch the covered magnet to the paper just pass it close by above. Works like magic. The paper stays clean and I believe that helps both with speed of lapping, the paper life, and with avoiding problems with "out of flat lapping". To clean the magnet just unwrap it over the trash.

Jim Koepke was the one I heard it from... definitely a keeper!