Brace Chucks, Lion & .......?

[Mike Holbrook]

First I have a MIllers Falls #772 brace with the Lion chuck and Leland's universal jaws. Turns out the wire between the two sides of the jaws was twisted and popped loose from the weld on one of the jaws. I ordered some jaw parts from Stanley but they do not match up, newer (economy?) style. I was wondering if anyone has experience repairing a Lion chuck? I tried bending the wire back into the original shape and so far it is still in one piece, although it is still not exactly correct. I can get the end of the wire back through the whole but the jaw slides around on it. I guess it could be spot welded back in place, but I have no experience in such things. I was thinking about bending one of the new pieces of wire that came with the replacement jaws and trying to get it into the shape the older piece was in. Any ideas?

I see some chucks that are simply cylindrical in shape with two protruding jaws sticking well out from the end of the chuck, like a Millers Falls #1050-1054:
http://oldtoolheaven.com/brace/brace5.htm

Can anyone give me some idea of how well these jaws work with various bits, drills....? Just wondering if these chucks are good "users"?

[Dave Matson]

I'm not sure if this will help but here a pic of the jaws on my 771. The wire has been swaged after being inserted into the hole in the jaw which prevents it from sliding off the wire. These chucks make great users and are just as good as other ball bearing chucks like those in the yankee braces. Supposedly they can hold round bits well, but I did not have much success when trying to hold the larger sizes in a Millers Falls 13 breast drill which uses the 'master chuck' yet the same type of jaws. Its better to get a breast drill with a three jaw chuck to handle round bits and leave the augers to the brace (or you can get a set of round bits with square shanks). Good luck!


180705

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks for the picture and mention of the "swag". I was assuming the wires were welded in place when manufactured, now I see they are made to slip within what I thought were welds . I checked the function of the wire jaw retainer on the Leland jaws on my 733 brace which is newer and has a solid wire retainer. It looks like there was more "play" in terms of the amount the jaws can move on the wires on my older 772 brace with the Lion chuck. Somehow someone managed to twist and bend up the wire on my Lion brace making it hard to imagine how it originally functioned. Now I think it was designed just like the Leland jaws in the 733, although it appears that later on the wires were made shorter to reduce the play which may have resulted in the kind of problem my Lion chuck had. There was so little play in the jaws on my 733 that I never noticed the jaws could move on the wire.

Maybe I have hope of repair now. I may even shorten the retaining wire on the Lion brace's Leland jaws in the hope of preventing them from getting twisted up again.

Another thing I am not sure about is the function of the Lion chuck housing. I think it has ball bearings inside it, but the inner portion does not seem to want to rotate. I'm not sure if the bearings are torn up or something else has frozen it up. It has been well cleaned and soaked in Kerosene & WD40 for weeks. Or again maybe I just do not know how it is suppose to work?

[Jonathan McCullough]

Another thing I am not sure about is the function of the Lion chuck housing. I think it has ball bearings inside it, but the inner portion does not seem to want to rotate. I'm not sure if the bearings are torn up or something else has frozen it up. It has been well cleaned and soaked in Kerosene & WD40 for weeks. Or again maybe I just do not know how it is suppose to work?

Aha, funny you should ask. I've been fooling around with a Stanley 811 with a similar-seeming ball bearing chuck. The inner conical race of the bearing wouldn't budge either, due to rust, and I couldn't see a way to access the bearings, but I could see a couple of patent dates so I looked them up (http://www.google.com/patents?id=Oz9JAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=1880521&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=1#v=onepage&q&f=false) and it gave a pretty good description of what was going on. Here's an illustration (http://oldtoolheaven.com/brace/braceimg/LionChuck.jpg) of how your Lion brace is probably constructed. I think the theory is that the ball bearing cone reduces the rotational friction when tightening the chuck, so you're able to bear down on the jaws tighter and easier. I'll bet there's some means of accessing the bearings on your Lion chuck--maybe a pin wrench? Maybe a dust cover that can be pried off?

Now I've found access to the ball bearings in my Stanley 811, but getting them out of their corroded race is proving a challenge, and I can't get the cone out until all of the ball bearings are out.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have seen that diagram before which is how I knew there was suppose to be ball bearings that allowed something to move around. The diagram does not seem to offer much in the way of clues regarding how to disassemble or repair the chuck though.

I just went and checked my Stanley 813G which has a "Lion" type chuck and the center section stays in place while the outside portion is rotated to tighten or loosen the jaws, not so on my Lion chuck. So I think the rotational function in the Lion chuck is definitely frozen up. The chuck does not seem to have much rust so I am guessing there is foreign matter in the mechanism, could have been residue from a rust cleaner as the chuck seems quite clean for one that old. The Stanley Chuck has a metal band around the outside of the chuck while the Millers Falls Lion chuck has a metal band in the top between the two sections. There are two small gaps in the band. I have tried budging them with a screwdriver and other objects but so far they do not seem to want to move. I think I have felt movement between the two areas in the past though.

[Jonathan McCullough]

Like the ever-increasing levels of cleverness and complexity evident in drills etc. of the time, I get the feeling that these chucks were manufactured with processes that were not intended to be reversed, and that the degree of improvement they gave users was incremental. It also appears that everyone was reverse-engineering each others' patents and filing new patents in order to approximate the supposedly superior aspects of each others' "improvements."

I still haven't cracked my chuck open, and it seriously looked like mangled hell before I ever got to it, but now it's sitting there, silently taunting and ridiculing me like a particularly nasty lawn mower carburetor I once knew. CURSE YOU, Stanley 811 ball bearing chuck! I WILL crack you open! Your mechanical secrets WILL be mine!

But seriously, I'm thinking of making some sort of conical bearing separator that will force the inside race to budge so I can get the ball bearings out and clean it up.

[Mike Holbrook]

Jonathan,
Our chucks must be related because mine is taunting me too, they must be possessed. Maybe there was some tool that fit into the gaps in those bands around our chucks? There must be some "trick" to getting these things apart. Someone out there must have a clue what that trick is....

[Dave Matson]

For what its worth, have you tried inserting an auger bit and then tightening the chuck as hard as humanly possible? That's how I was able to free my 771. The jaws pressed up against the inner ring which held it stationary as the outer housing moved around it. Working back in forth I was able to get more and more movement out of the bearings until they eventually moved freely. Stuck chucks are shuck.

[Jonathan McCullough]

Jonathan,
Our chucks must be related because mine is taunting me too, they must be possessed. Maybe there was some tool that fit into the gaps in those bands around our chucks? There must be some "trick" to getting these things apart. Someone out there must have a clue what that trick is....

Yours appears to have two threaded rings keeping those bearings there, so I'm going to guess that you would have to unscrew those rings.


For what its worth, have you tried inserting an auger bit and then tightening the chuck as hard as humanly possible?

No Dave. That would be too simple. I should probably do that before constructing a UHF induction coil to try and melt the ball bearings so I can pour them out. Spiteful, balky ball bearings! When I am rolling you around between my fingers like a rolly polly bug, I shall have my revenge!

[Mike Holbrook]

Jonathan,
I think you added a link above (looked them up), or I just missed it before, which is the patent description for the same chuck as I have on my Stanley 813G's. The 813G's do not have Leland jaws; I was assuming they used the "economy" jaws referred to on some old tool sites describing these braces. I believe the patent you provide a link to sheds a little light on why the new jaws were created. I find that I like the newer simpler design in terms of both its function and its ability to handle rust and dirt. I better like the new design as I have two braces with that chuck and extra jaws.

I'm not sure what you are referring to as "two threaded rings" above. I was thinking that what I was referring to as metal bands (part #40 in the patent illustration) might be integral to disassembling our chucks. Now I am wondering if those metal bands are filling & maintaining the gap between the two parts. In the illustration it looks like the two holes in that band might be where the ball bearings reside, providing a way to oil them, maybe?

Reading the patent at 40 on the first page, it appears that the newer jaws used on the 813G were designed to prevent the jaws not functioning due to rust and foreign material, making them easier to replace & manufacture too. I surmise from this later patent that we may not be the only people to have had problems with the Leland jaws and Lion housing for those jaws. Whether or not the newer model is a better design is I'm sure a matter for conjecture. It does seem to me, however, that the Lion chuck does sacrifice some ability to function in wet dirty conditions for the ability to tighten better in more ideal conditions. Our problem is time seems to increase the chance of offending water and dirt freezing/fouling those chucks.

[Jonathan McCullough]

There are two links above.

This link shows the Lion type. (http://oldtoolheaven.com/brace/braceimg/LionChuck.jpg) I would put it here but I don't want to go to the hassle of asking for reprint permission. It has two washer-like thingees to retain the ball bearings. The outer ring probably has threads. The inner ring may be a thrust bearing washer without threads, or it may have threads. If you find a way to unscrew the outer ring, you'll probably gain access to the ball bearings on your Lion-type ball bearing chuck.

This link shows the 811 type (http://www.google.com/patents?id=Oz9JAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=1880521&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=1#v=onepage&q&f=false) (and possibly the 813--I'll take your word for it). The way it is manufactured is that there is a conical collet ("B") retained by the ball bearings themselves (30). They put the collet in, then inserted the ball bearings through a hole in the race (32). They then put a steel retaining ring (40) over the hole to keep the ball bearings in.

http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss199/Jonathryn/ring.jpg
http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss199/Jonathryn/Stanley811.jpg

[Mike Holbrook]

Right, I did not pick up from the Lion chuck diagram that there were two "washer-like thingees" retaining the ball bearings. Looking at the Lion from the top one can only see the one. So far I have not been able to get my Lion apart. I tried placing a large bit in it and hand tightening as hard as I could but so far it has not budged.

I can not say for sure that my 813 is the same as the 811. The only difference I see though is a slight variation in the jaw faces. One of my 813's has not been delivered yet the other works very well as it is.

[Jim Koepke]

Sometimes tools like these come in handy for taking such things appart.

181061

As I recall, these came from a bicycle shop that sold tools about 35 years ago.

Before having these other things were put into service to undo threaded fasteners.

Sometime it is a spring clip that needs to be removed to get to the prize.

jtk