Solid wood flooring nailers - cleats vs. staples

[Rob Wright]

I have been going crazy this morning trying to find a thread I read in the last month concerning using a flooring nailer to install solid wood flooring. The discussion was on using a manual nailer or going to a cheaper Harbor Freight pneumatic nailer to install the flooring. There was also discussion on using cleats vs. staples. The last post I read had someone suggesting just grab a handful of spiral nails and a nailset and go at it. I am failing at the new forum's search function:mad:!

I have rented a manual porta-nailer before from the Orange borg - but the installs were about 200sf (kitchens) and I could do it in a day by myself. I am committed now to installing 1000sf in a basement and I know it is going to take a month of Sundays for me to complete the job.

I am installing Platon and 3/4" tongue and groove 3/4" OSB over the slab per the recommendations. I am installing 3/4" cherry unfinished. I need to use a 1.5" fastener to prevent any puncturing of the vapor barrier.

I had read some good reviews of people using these from Amazon :

http://www.amazon.com/NuMax-SFL618BR-Flooring-Stapler-Nailer/dp/B0032JTDPE/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1296486480&sr=8-12

or

http://www.amazon.com/Ramsond-RMM4-Hardwood-Flooring-Stapler/dp/B001JT64U6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1296486480&sr=8-2

or the HF one with an additional 20% off coupon? http://www.harborfreight.com/3-in-1-flooring-nailer-and-stapler-99640.html

I have the following questions:

Cleats or Staples?
What nailer? Amazon or Harbor Freight?
Face nailing the first row - 16ga or 15ga?

Thanks guys!

[james glenn]

I like the manual nailers with the rachet feature because you don't need one big whack all the time. Plus, I have taking a 6" bow out of a piece
with just by working the strip along. After the first day my arm was dead, but after the second, I was used to it. I also prefer the cleats to staples.
Have had some issues with them in the past not holding as tight as the cleats did. But that might be a difference in manual vs air. Not sure.

One trick to the first few pieces I did. Try to face nail where the baseboard is going to cover, then finish nail 16ga in the tongue just like
the floor nailer. My Bosch nailer has a 'V' tip that helped fit the tip to the tongue (sounds like fun).

The first piece I actually drilled the tongue and hammered a finish nails in. 500+sf and not one nail showing. A nice clean look.

Just my 2cents though.

[George Bregar]

I used staples for almost the exact same situation...Delta FL (similar product to Platon) over 3/4" T&G OSB...3/4" oak hardwood. If memory serves 1-1/2" staples so I wouldn't penetrate the Delta-FL. I face nailed 15 Ga and wasn't worried about hiding them as this was for my shop. All I know is on a few misfires those staples were a b*tch to remove. I can't image them failing. It was more economical to buy mor than I needed so IIRC I spaced the staples 8-10". No loose boards in about two years.

[Neil Bosdet]

I have the following questions:

Cleats or Staples?
What nailer? Amazon or Harbor Freight?
Face nailing the first row - 16ga or 15ga?

Thanks guys!

I would get the cleat nailer. Manufacturers of many hardwood floors now won't warranty if staples are used. This is due to increased splitting on the higher density exotics. I have a stapler and have never had a problem but if I were to repurchase now I would get the nailer.

I looked at the options you presented there and I would purchase the Ramsond. Lots of good reviews and great price.

Like the other fellow suggested, if you can nail under a baseboard and then through the tongue, you're set. I usually glue my first and sometimes second row. Wait till the next day and continue. This holds things firm. The nailers have a lot of force and you can throw your alignment out easier than you'd think when the first row is held with 15 or 16 gauge nails.

[Rob Wright]

I used staples for almost the exact same situation...Delta FL (similar product to Platon) over 3/4" T&G OSB...3/4" oak hardwood. If memory serves 1-1/2" staples so I wouldn't penetrate the Delta-FL. I face nailed 15 Ga and wasn't worried about hiding them as this was for my shop. All I know is on a few misfires those staples were a b*tch to remove. I can't image them failing. It was more economical to buy mor than I needed so IIRC I spaced the staples 8-10". No loose boards in about two years.
George - I am basing a lot of what I am doing from your shop thread from last year. Thnaks for the input - ordered my edge tape and snapcons from Amazon and should have them today. Just got a flier in the mail from HF with the SDS drill on sale for $59.99.

[Rob Wright]

I would get the cleat nailer. Manufacturers of many hardwood floors now won't warranty if staples are used. This is due to increased splitting on the higher density exotics. I have a stapler and have never had a problem but if I were to repurchase now I would get the nailer.

I looked at the options you presented there and I would purchase the Ramsond. Lots of good reviews and great price.

Like the other fellow suggested, if you can nail under a baseboard and then through the tongue, you're set. I usually glue my first and sometimes second row. Wait till the next day and continue. This holds things firm. The nailers have a lot of force and you can throw your alignment out easier than you'd think when the first row is held with 15 or 16 gauge nails.

Any concerns with cleats vs. staples into the OSB?

Also - should I put red rosin paper or felt on the OSB prior to installing the flooring? Any downside to the felt(tar paper) in an inside living space situation? I have used red rosin in the past.

[Ryan Hellmer]

I have a grex 15 ga stapler and couldn't be happier. The staples hold great and I had no issues with splitting, I wasn't using dense exotic's either. I don't know that there's very much difference overall. I would certainly go pneumatic. I face nailed with 16 guage and got close enough that quarter round covered most everything. The others are hardly noticeable even though nailed about every 6 inches.

Ryan

[Neil Bosdet]

Any concerns with cleats vs. staples into the OSB?

Also - should I put red rosin paper or felt on the OSB prior to installing the flooring? Any downside to the felt(tar paper) in an inside living space situation? I have used red rosin in the past.

Subfloors are plywood or OSB so no concerns with cleats in OSB. Tar paper will off gas for a while. I used a wax paper under a reclaimed floor and I don't think I'd ever do it again. If you ever have a need to inject some glue between a split or gap it will be useless with a paper layer between. Doubtful this will be a concern with a manufactured floor but I'm just saying. Clean your floor well and go at it.

[George Bregar]

George - I am basing a lot of what I am doing from your shop thread from last year. Thnaks for the input - ordered my edge tape and snapcons from Amazon and should have them today. Just got a flier in the mail from HF with the SDS drill on sale for $59.99.
That HF SDS Hammer drill worked out great for me...I think I also paid $60. While I'm sure it's not the best SDS out there it worked fine for me and now I have one...won't get a lot of use. Get some extra drill bits and also make sure you have a torguey drill. I snapped off a lot of tapcons (yeah, I call 'em snapcons too) because every time the drill would bog...snap. I rented a Milwaukee corded drill that had the ooomph to drive the snapcon all the way flush and life got easier. 1000 sf? You will have a new appreciation for not being a professional floor installer :D

[james glenn]

[QUOTE=Also - should I put red rosin paper or felt on the OSB prior to installing the flooring? Any downside to the felt(tar paper) in an inside living space situation? I have used red rosin in the past.[/QUOTE]

Use the red rosin paper. The tar paper is will act as a moisture barrier and could be a problem if you have some osb sandwiched between moisture barriers
at some point. The rosin paper just helps to eliminate squeaks due to friction.

[Alan Schaffter]

I just started laying oak flooring in a 200 sq. ft. bedroom addition so haven't done enough to to really give a thorough report (my first flooring experience). I looked at the price of the Bostich and others and figured, for just one job and maybe my shop (if/when my ship comes in) I'd just go with the HF pneumatic nailer. It looks identical to a number of the Chiwanese nailers. It is sweet! A tap with the mallet and those boards are rammed home and anchored securely. I can't say how it will do with a heavily bowed board.

My house has about 3000 sq. ft. of white oak floors. The installer used "L" cleats and tar paper. I am using cleats too, but opted for the rosin paper because the roll was lighter, cleaner, and cheaper. I've heard some folks use newspaper- the ink helps the boards slide. The underlayment in my house is Advantech- really tough stuff. It is a wafer board like OSB but smaller flakes, more binder, much denser, smoother surface, etc. than OSB. As tough as it is, the cleats penetrated it easily with the air set at 100 psi. Contrary to my original thoughts, this is going to be fun!

The only tough parts so far were two areas I needed to weave to avoid a long butt seam- it was kind of a pain to get the old boards out (I used a drill and chisels) in a staggered manner and fit the new ones in.

I'll be looking for recommendations on sanders- anyone use the commercial units that have a rectangular base that contains a number of smaller ROS pads? They are supposedly easier to handle and have better dust collection than the old drum type.

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[Dan Hulbert]

I bought the Ramsond to put down about 900 feet on 3/4 prefinished white oak in our master bedroom and couldn't be happier. I used the l cleats because I hate staples. Don't know why but I do. This is my third flooring job and I have never used naything between the flooring and the subfloor. I could never see the point in it.

[Alan Schaffter]

I bought the Ramsond to put down about 900 feet on 3/4 prefinished white oak in our master bedroom and couldn't be happier. I used the l cleats because I hate staples. Don't know why but I do. This is my third flooring job and I have never used naything between the flooring and the subfloor. I could never see the point in it.

I think the 15# roofing felt is a holdover from the days of 1 X 6 subfloor. The tar paper was a vapor barrier. A lot of installers have gone to the rosin paper because you can also tape it down to protect finished floors. The only other reasons I can think of is that it makes chips and dirt show up easier so you can clear then out before laying planks and it also alows the planks to slide easier for a tighter joint.

[Josiah Bartlett]

I'll be looking for recommendations on sanders- anyone use the commercial units that have a rectangular base that contains a number of smaller ROS pads? They are supposedly easier to handle and have better dust collection than the old drum type.



Based on recommendations from my neighbor who has redone his whole house with both refinishing and a new floor, get the drum sander for a virgin floor. A lot of what you are doing is leveling and the 4 disc sanders aren't aggressive enough to level.

[Jeff Duncan]

I've done several floors and would highly recommend the air nailer. Manual are a real PITA and your arm will be junk for a day or 2 everytime you use it. Even with the air version doing 1000 sq. ft. puts a good amount of wear and tear on the body....I still feel it in my knees:(
I've used both the cleats and staples and in the 10 years since my first job still haven't noticed any discernible difference. The first was a 3/4" plywood over concrete slab so those also had to be short too, and no problems. I used rosen paper b/c that's what the flooring guys use.....couldn't tell you for sure if you need it or not?
One thing I'll say is if I were to do it over again I'd have bought the Bostich nailer. I've rented so many times over the years it would have been paid for by now.
good luck,
jeffD

[Mike Roberts]

When I did my house I started here and found a brand new PC nailer on CL for 200 bucks. These guys can answer all of your questions.

http://www.thefloorpro.com/community/

Mike

Go Pack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MARK D Sullivan]

I prefer the cleats over the staples. If you do have a slightly crooked board the staples don't seem to pull it as tight as the cleats do. Red rosin paper will be fine but we have switched to a paper vapor barrier because there is one less thing to worry about I cannot remember the brand right now. On a new install you will need a drum sander the 220 if you can find them otherwise the 110 will work just not as efficient also you will have to screen the floor very well to get rid of some chatter. ( sander marks in the floor) If you do glue the first couple of rows like has been mentioned do not glue the ending rows because there will be no room for the floor to move. If a raw wood just nail the first rows the filler will cover if there are any nailholes. If prefinished we usually nail the first rows and glue the last if nailholes are a concern. Mark

[hank dekeyser]

The HF unit works just fine - buy it on sale w/ 20% off coupon, get the ext warranty just in case (good selling point when you re-sell it after this job) Use staples, plenty of holding power -PITA to get out if you mess up a board though. Tar paper was used for just about everything back in the day (newspaper cuz it's cheaper ??? are ya nuts) - Use rosin paper, hammer tack it down. Personally I leave the sanding and finishing to the pros - THAT is the one thing that will make your floor look like its supposed to look or - look like "you can do it, we can help" A poor finish job will haunt you forever ! Have fun, 1000 ft is a lot to do.

[Curt Harms]

We did this recently. Found a site (don't remember which one but it was like an industry/trade site) and they recommended cleats on hardwood, staples on engineered flooring. The HF nailer was fine shooting PortaNails cleats. The HF gun and its clones will shoot either staples or cleats. Don't be bashful with the oil if you get the HF; I was getting a few misfires and once I started oiling 3 or 4 drops every time I reloaded the gun, the misfires went away.

[Rob Wright]

Thanks guys for all the input and suggestions. I will already have a vapor barrier down with the use of the Platon on top of the slab, then the 3/4" T&G OSB. I am still deciding of I need the Red Rosin on top of the OSB still since it is not acting as a Vapor barrier. It's not going to cost too much so i should just do it I suppose.

Ya - a 1000 sq ft is going to take some time - the wife is busy at night with school, so i figured I need something to do to keep me occupied for the next 2 months! Go down and do 50 to 100 a night for a few weeks when I have some time. One of the other reasons to just buy the nailer - renting really wasn't going to be an option.

I have to get the 32 sheets of OSB that got dropped off yesterday in the snow storm down into the basement now. I need to pull them through a window into the basement - hope I can sucker a neighbor to come and help me. Maybe they will get sick of looking at the wood in my driveway and volunteer to come over and help! I can only wish.... this is going to cost me more than a handful of beers I am sure!

[David Helm]

As a former professional floor installer (all hardwoods) my answer to your questions are 1) Don't use staples, old technology that has, in my opinion, always proved inadequate. 2) Use the red rosin paper to help avoid squeaks. Much of what has been said here is good advice.

[Rob Wright]

David - Thank you. I have decided on the Red rosin paper and "L" cleats. Attaching the OSB to clean concrete with 2-3/4" snapcons - 15 per sheet. Let the fun begin ;)

[Jim Andrew]

Before you start putting flooring down over osb, drive a nail in the osb and pull it out, to test its holding power. My experience is that plywood holds a lot better. Maybe you have some kind that holds better than the stuff I used. But test it. Then make up your mind about fasteners. I used adhesive on flooring over osb, as well as nailing it.

[Neal Clayton]

Based on recommendations from my neighbor who has redone his whole house with both refinishing and a new floor, get the drum sander for a virgin floor. A lot of what you are doing is leveling and the 4 disc sanders aren't aggressive enough to level.

that pretty much is accurate. if you're doing an old floor and don't care about level, the random orbital sanders will evenly sand it, but not make it even.

for that they are more forgiving as well, you can't easily 'dig a hole' with the random orbital ones.

but they are not as fast as a drum sander and will not level the floor very well.

when you get to finishing do yourself a favor and skip those rollers and sponges too, use a real lambswool mop. there is a difference.

the borg has lambswool mops in the tool rental section.

[Robert MacKinnon]

Noob question regarding flooring. I'm planning on installing 3/4" oak solid wood flooring on the main floor of my house. The old flooring has been stripped off, down to the 1x6 subfloor. Joists are (real) 2x8 on 16" centres. I'm planning on laying down 3/8" plywood over the existing subfloor, using construction cement and wood screws into the joists to tighten down and strengthen the base. Is this adequate for the job or should I go with a thicker ply?

Thanks.

[Neil Bosdet]

This is a "can of worms" question. Is there much bounce on the 1x6 subfloor? I guess the simple answer is you'd be best to lay 3/4" T&G ply down first to get the structural strength you may not have at this time. Bounce caused by 2x8 joists will not be corrected by this. If you have bounce caused by the joists you can add spacers between them to significantly improve this. Back to the flooring: adding 3/4" T&G ply may bring your whole floor up too much. Does this new wood floor you're going to lay butt up to another flooring? If so, what distance is this floor from the 1x6 subfloor to the surface? Having floors at different heights is not the end of the world but can be annoying and a bit of a trip hazard. If you can avoid it you should.

[Ryan Baker]

Robert, I recently did flooring in pretty much exactly the same situation. I used 3/8" ply over the board subfloor, like you are suggesting, and it works fine. Most likely it will be fine for you too with 3/4" solid hardwood over it. Secure it well and it makes a pretty strong sandwich. I would consider that the minimum though. I did that instead of 3/4 ply because of matching floor heights. If you have the room to use 3/4" ply, I would do it.

As for the earlier part of this thread, I also have the Ramsond nailer and recommend it. Works great. Definitely air over manual. Definitely cleats over staples. Definitely use the rosin paper (or something equivalent) to avoid squeaks. And I don't know what kind of OSB other people have, but there is no way I would ever use OSB under a hardwood floor. Every piece of OSB i've ever come across won't hold floor nails for very long before the squeaks will start.

[Larry Edgerton]

And I don't know what kind of OSB other people have, but there is no way I would ever use OSB under a hardwood floor. Every piece of OSB i've ever come across won't hold floor nails for very long before the squeaks will start.

Actually, all OSB is not created equal. Most manufacturers have a premium water resistant OSB that is a much better product. This stuff can be soaked for weeks during construction and not be affected. Many of the flooring manufacturers will not warrenty their product when put over regular OSB, but will when installed on the premium. It is much heavier.

I use it on every home I build as it ends up being cheaper for me in the end. In this climate I know the floor is going to get wet. On my own house I am building now it was under water for three weeks. Not a swollen joint, and the face is still smooth.

As to the original question, you made the right choice in fasteners in my opinion.

Larry

[Robert MacKinnon]

This is a "can of worms" question. Is there much bounce on the 1x6 subfloor?
Thanks for the reply Neil. The floor integrity is quite fine; it's not because of poor structural integrity that I am considering this subfloor strengthening. I might have been misleading in my post. The 2x8 joists are in great shape. The original installation is missing nails in some floorboards causing them to be loose. The floor "bounces" in these areas because there is nothing to hold the subfloor board to the joist. But moreover, the original floor used to squeak in these areas. I could screw down the loose boards to the joists but there is another overriding concern I have. The new installation will have half the floor with 3/4" T&G solid hardwood flooring and the other half will be 17x17 porcelain tile. I'm going to use Ditra on the tile floor but it was recommended to me by a couple of tile installers to strengthen the foor in the areas where the tile will be laid to prevent cracking of the tiles in future. Since I would consider adding this ply overlay primarily for the tile floor, it is a no-brainer to continue the ply overlay into the hardwood floor areas (1) to reduce the chance of floor squeaks and (2) to create a uniform subfloor surface throughout the project area.

My question was addressing my concern that I would be using a sufficiently strong ply product to achieve my goals. Is that explanation clearer?

[Ben Abate]

Jeff is correct about feeling the effects for a few days and you'll have a tough time holding your coffee cup the next morning. My suggestion is to buy the Habor Freight air flooring nailer. I recently did a 400 sq ft floor for a friend, he rented a Bostich nailer and it was so beat we couldn't get it to work. We went and bought a HF air flooring nailer and it worked great and the price is right. Hey sell the gun afterwards. If I were doing flooring for a living I would go with a big name nailer but for an occasionally flooring job the HF is fine and you'll be able to hold your coffee cup come the next morning. No kidding if you've never have used a manual floor nailer before you're in for a surprise in a work out. YOU Got to swing that hammer pretty good all day long....did my share of manual flooring hammering

enjoy, great feeling when you're all finished and it looks so good
Ben

[Neil Bosdet]

Yes, much clearer. OK. How thick is the tile? You may want to double the 3/8" ply in the tile area to even the floor height. Most tile is roughly 3/8" thick and your hardwood floor is 3/4". I would screw every 1x6" board to the joists before you put down ply. Then glue and screw the ply down to the 1x6. You should eliminate all opportunities for squeaks this way.

[robert raess]

the very first nailer i bought was a porter-nailer, and i liked the ratched action.then as i did more floors i switched to the manual power-nailer,but that was short lived because air assist were on the market, and i never looked back. tho i still have both manual nailers, to rent out or small repair or lack of electric.When i bought my air assist they were both[bostich] staplers.I did a batch of hickory and other woods prone to splitting and a friend of mine who had won some 'floor of the year' awards ,said switch to cleats.I bought a kit to switch them over to cleats and am glad that i did.reasons: less splitting,easier to set by hand if mis-hit,easier to pull out.I have not used any of the brands other than the ones i mentioned as well as prima tech[canada].face nailing : i use sub-floor caulk to minimize the no. of nails used. The nails i do use i shoot into the dark grain or a solid knot,so when i fill, the eye is not drawn to a 'blank' space with a dot in the middle.OSB does not hold[a nail] as well as plywood,thats a fact.If the OSB has been exposed to water even more true.I always use 15 lb. felt under a nail down floor. It mitigates squeaks between wood and subfloor,and it is a vapor retarder.I have also noticed on tearouts[due to flood] that the back of the boards have black spots of tar around the hole that the cleat pierced the bottom of the board and into the tarpaper, so it does somewhat heal the hole made by the cleat.GO BADGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Robert MacKinnon]

Thanks for the reply Neil. The floor integrity is quite fine; it's not because of poor structural integrity that I am considering this subfloor strengthening. I might have been misleading in my post. The 2x8 joists are in great shape. The original installation is missing nails in some floorboards causing them to be loose. The floor "bounces" in these areas because there is nothing to hold the subfloor board to the joist. But moreover, the original floor used to squeak in these areas. I could screw down the loose boards to the joists but there is another overriding concern I have. The new installation will have half the floor with 3/4" T&G solid hardwood flooring and the other half will be 17x17 porcelain tile. I'm going to use Ditra on the tile floor but it was recommended to me by a couple of tile installers to strengthen the foor in the areas where the tile will be laid to prevent cracking of the tiles in future. Since I would consider adding this ply overlay primarily for the tile floor, it is a no-brainer to continue the ply overlay into the hardwood floor areas (1) to reduce the chance of floor squeaks and (2) to create a uniform subfloor surface throughout the project area.

My question was addressing my concern that I would be using a sufficiently strong ply product to achieve my goals. Is that explanation clearer?
I'd just like to feed back my experience with this flooring project. It might be useful for others.

I decided to use 1/2" interior/exterior spruce ply as the subflooring enhancement material. It was a compromise between 3/8" which I felt to be too thin and 3/4" which I felt was way over-kill. It worked like a dream.

First, I went through the project area and used 3" flooring screws to fix all 1x6 floorboards that were obviously squeaking or loose.

Then, I laid down the ply sheets, butting them together and used the same 3" flooring screws to screw through the ply and existing subfloor into the joists. I had previously marked the centres of the joists on the baseboard before laying the ply sheets. I temporarily fixed the sheets in place with a couple screws and snapped chalk lines to show the joist centres. I used about a floor screw every 8-12". There was no need for construction adhesive or floor glue to fix the ply sheets. There were butt joints parallel to the floor joists which were midway. For these, I drove screws in at an oblique angle so that the thread bit into the 1x6 floorboard. It worked admirably.

The work took 2 days for about 700 sq. feet and one worker (me). The resulting floor is rock solid. There is no perceptible flex in the floor and no more squeaking.