Worksharp or Norton stones?

[Andrew Nemeth]

Recently, as many of you might know, Home Depot offered the Worksharp 3000 at an incredibly low price. I bit and was lucky enough to get in on the deal. Prior to purchasing the WS I had intended to purchase a set of combination Norton water stones (220/1000 and 4000/8000). I am coming over to the quieter side of woodworking and I have just begun aquiring some planes and chisels to complement my stationary equipment and power tools. The question is, do I keep the Worksharp 3000 or do I sell/trade it for a set of waterstones? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each system? I have considered keeping the WS and still buying stones but I would prefer to put the extra money into another plane if I can settle on just one sharpening system. What are your thought?

Thanks for your help,
Andrew

[David Weaver]

I have never used a worksharp, but before I started shifting methods around, I would try the worksharp. It won't cost you that much in terms of used sale price that you can get for it if you decide you don't like it, but for practical purposes, you will need something that can grind at some point (i don't know if you have a dry grinder or not, or how you'd plan to do that) and supposing this is the only thing you have to grind accurately enough, and you dump it and get waterstones, you'll be in a pickle sometime when you drop an iron or chisel, or otherwise just when you need to move the primary on a large A2 iron back, or do some refurbishing to a vintage tool.

Give it a shot, see what you think of it, then go to stones if you're not happy - that's my advice. If you like everything about it but want a sharper final product, then run your chisel or whatever up through the grits and then go to sears and get the green stick of buffing compound for about $3 and a 3/4" MDF panel and cut a piece off in the shape of a stone and use it as a sort of stone/strop. If you like that as a final step, you can get a proper stone any time, but that will hold you off until then, and for cheap.

Just my opinion, worth what you paid for it.

[Derek Gilmer]

Subscribing to this thread since I'm in a similar boat. I've got the majority of the scary sharp method already. Including a Veritas mk II guide. But couldn't say no to the worksharp deal.

My thoughts for now are that in the long term I want to be able to make a razor's edge with nothing but stones and hand sharpening or maybe a honing guide. I don't like having to depend on something to get sharp edges down the road. However in the short term having a worksharp to lean on doesn't break my heart :)

[Casey Gooding]

I have used both methods quite a bit. Personally, I think the Worksharp is good for grinding bevels and sharpening carving and lathe tools. I was never able to obtain a truly sharp edge with it even using the highest grit honing paper. I have heard others have had very good luck with the leather strop, though.
When it comes to honing a truly sharp edge, I have found either waterstones or the Scary Sharp method to be the best at obtaining a keen edge.

[Michael MacDonald]

I will buy the WS3000 from you... I missed the deal. that's what you get for not logging into SMC for a few months.

But I don't think you should want to sell it. Having two ways to do something can be a good thing.

I have been using sandpaper for the last year with the veritas mkII guide, but just a month ago bought some waterstones... I like the waterstones more than sandpaper... I have double stones -- a 250/1000 that is japanese, and a norton 4000/8000. I didn't feel they were that expensive--perhaps it is a mental thing because overall I spent a good bundle on the whole setup, but each piece seemed to be reasonable... also got a rubber base and a norton flattening thing... forget exactly what it was called. (lapping stone or flattening stone?) Now that I am thinking more about it, I probably would have been better served by jumping on a $200 WS3000 and investing in stones as a backup over time.

I think you would want to have a set of waterstones that sit around "just in case" you have the itch to use them. I am intrigued by the WS3000, but now that so many people have purchased it for $62, I am reluctant to pay $200. Again, just a mind game.

I think for now I will just look into the final step I have so far avoided--stropping after the 8000 grit. If I could get someone to sell me a new WS3000 with the leather pad, I would jump on that at this point. In short, I think you are going down the right path.

[John Coloccia]

I use a Tormek, Spyderco, Nortons, Shaptons, DMTs, WS3000, and various hones and strops of all kinds. Get stones if you'd like, but I'd keep the WS.

Personally, I either like the Shapton stones, or Norton stones 8000 and up. I don't use under 8000 because they require soaking and that's too much trouble for me. The Nortons 8000 and up, and the all the Shapton glass stones, require only a spritz of water. Below 8000, I'm either on a Tormek or a DMT Coarse/Fine Duo.

[Prashun Patel]

I'm on my 2nd Worksharp. I think it's convenient, but there are a couple things I don't like that much:

1) It's hard to remove all the skew out of the underside port. And the calibration procedure is cumbersome.
2) When using the underside port, the paper wears quickly and in a small path. To clean it, you have to remove the wheel.
3) If you want to sharpen anything but block plane blades and chisels, you have to get a topside stand and a sharpening jig.

I like it fine, though. I find myself using it these days mainly for the coarser grits.

[Brian Vaughn]

I'll second what Michael said, in that I missed the deal by a few hours, and would love to take one off someone's hands, should they decide they don't want it. That being said, I think a big part is how much time and effort someone wants to put into learning to sharpen versus using the tool. For some of us, having a tool that does most of the sharpening work for us is a nice thing, because we're perfectionists who take hours and hours and hours to sharpen a tool by hand....but that's just me ;)

[Greg Wease]

I agree with all of the above. I have a Worksharp but use it primarily for flattening the backs of old, tired plane blades and chisels. I work the bevel side with either scary sharp or water stones depending on how I feel that day.

[Chris Griggs]

For what it's worth, I sharpen with Norton waterstones, but for various reasons am planning on getting the WS 2000 (instead of a wheel grinder) to do my grinding. Ultimately, I'd like to have the WS 2000 for my roughest work, diamond stones for my initial honing (like John C I HATE soaking), and continue to use my 8000 noton followed by green stuff on MDF for final honing.

[Chris Griggs]

I use a Tormek, Spyderco, Nortons, Shaptons, DMTs, WS3000, and various hones and strops of all kinds. Get stones if you'd like, but I'd keep the WS.

Personally, I either like the Shapton stones, or Norton stones 8000 and up. I don't use under 8000 because they require soaking and that's too much trouble for me. The Nortons 8000 and up, and the all the Shapton glass stones, require only a spritz of water. Below 8000, I'm either on a Tormek or a DMT Coarse/Fine Duo.

Sorry to hijack this thread but....

John, I see that you wrote you use a course/fine DMT instead of lower grit water stones. Do you find you can go straight from the fine diamond stone (rated 600 grit) straight to the 8000 waterstone? Or is your fine side actually the "extra-fine" (1200)? I guess what I'm getting at is how do the grit ratings on the diamond stones compare to those on Nortons? I normally do 1000 straight to 8000, but like you, hate the soaking and would like to replace my 1000 Norton with a diamond stone.

[john brenton]

You can't be the judge until you buy the stones. As David W. said, it would be unlikely if you weren't able to resell the WS for a price you couldn't live with, especially if you advertised locally. I don't see how you could possibly go wrong with the Nortons, or why anyone wouldn't have them. I used to strop with rouge before I got the 4000/8000 stone, now I see no point. I still strop with rouge or clean leather occasionally when I'm chopping or planing, but the stropping with rouge is no longer part of the process of honing...in other words, the strop isn't at the sharpening station, it's on the bench.

I'd get the Nortons before I decided to sell the WS.

[Tom Vanzant]

Chris,
I have a WS2000 which only grinds to25 deg. I have used it to create primary bevels on my chisels, then hone them using scary sharp to whatever bevel angle fits the need. Since the tool port is only 1 5/8" wide, plane irons need to be worked using the top-mounted guide bar, with or without a secondary guide/holder. The abrasive disk is slotted, so I only grind a primary bevel on the WS2000 and finish with scary sharp. The glass abrasive disk from the WS3000 does not fit on the WS2000... it would make it a much more versatile tool if it did.

[Chris Griggs]

Chris,
I have a WS2000 which only grinds to25 deg. I have used it to create primary bevels on my chisels, then hone them using scary sharp to whatever bevel angle fits the need. Since the tool port is only 1 5/8" wide, plane irons need to be worked using the top-mounted guide bar, with or without a secondary guide/holder. The abrasive disk is slotted, so I only grind a primary bevel on the WS2000 and finish with scary sharp. The glass abrasive disk from the WS3000 does not fit on the WS2000... it would make it a much more versatile tool if it did.

That's pretty much how I plan to use it if I get one (grinding primary bevels and cambers), which is why I was thinking I would choose it over a 3000. I know online it says that the 3000 wheels don't work on the 2000, but I thought I'd read that in practice they do. That's disappointing that if they don't. Thanks for the input

[John Coloccia]

Sorry to hijack this thread but....

John, I see that you wrote you use a course/fine DMT instead of lower grit water stones. Do you find you can go straight from the fine diamond stone (rated 600 grit) straight to the 8000 waterstone? Or is your fine side actually the "extra-fine" (1200)? I guess what I'm getting at is how do the grit ratings on the diamond stones compare to those on Nortons? I normally do 1000 straight to 8000, but like you, hate the soaking and would like to replace my 1000 Norton with a diamond stone.

I use the DMT to flatten my stones (coarse side) and to flatten backs/establish bevels (fine side). If I want a flat bevel (either dead flat or micro), I take it to the WS, though in the past I would use the fine DMT and go straight to the Norton 8000. Usually, though, the progression for me is Tormek (for the hollow grind) and off to the Norton 8000, Shapton 16000 and leather strop. Then I added the Spyderco Ultra Fine and now go 8000 to the Spyderco to Leather.

If I'm putting a microbevel (no hollow) it used to be fine DMT right to the 8000. I don't bother shining up the rest of the bevel. What's the point? Nowadays, if I want a micro bevel I do WS to the Norton 8000, Spyderco and then leather.

It does take a little extra time on the 8000 skipping an intermediate stone, but given that I'm NEVER doing the entire bevel like that, it just really doesn't matter that much.

If I'm doing a dead flat bevel, it's WS from beginning to end.

That's just how I work. I have a lot invested in sharpening equipment. It's not necessary at all but sharpening's one of those things that I get no enjoyment from whatsoever, and I'm always looking to optimize my process to spend the least amount of time and effort possible. To that end, I spend a lot of time stropping during the day to keep the edge as keen as I possibly can. When that stops working, I hone a little and then back to stropping. When that stops working, I start playing with the primary bevel or hollow grind again. I find that maintaining the edge in a state of sharpness is far easier and quicker than using it until it's dull, and then bringing it back to sharp.

Again, this is just me and how I work. I've actually been told by people that I'm doing it all wrong and I probably am. My door is open to anyone that would like to come into my shop and maintain my edges for me. No one's taken me up on it yet! :D

[john brenton]

I have the extra-coarse/coarse, which is 220/325 mesh.

Although the grits aren't too far apart numbers wise, in terms of relativity there is a big difference in the surface they leave. At the lower grits, there is a big difference despite the fact that the numbers aren't as far apart as say 4,000 and 8,000....there's a 4,000 grit difference there, but it's not as dramatic as let's say 80 grit and 220 grit sandpaper. I'm not sure if relativity is the word, or it's a matter of perception.

Anywho, I jump right from the coarse to the 4,000 grit polishing stone. I would intuitively jump to the 1000 first, but I declined to do it and I was happy with the results. I don't overwork the 4000, and in just a few light passes it's ready final polishing on the 8k. I'm sure someone would disagree with that method, and I'd be open to suggestions, but I don't think anyone could get their tools sharper than mine...and I don't mean that in the dorky way it sounds, I just mean that my edges are as sharp as they can possibly get, or would ever need to be.

[john brenton]

I'm sorry...wrong John!! I thought you were talking to me.

[Chris Griggs]

I'm sorry...wrong John!! I thought you were talking to me.

That's fine! You're advice was welcome and helped answer my question. I think if you can go from the 325 to 4000, then it's probably not unreasonable to go from the fine (600) dmt to an 8000 Norton.
THANKS!

[john brenton]

I've never tried it, but I'm sure it would work. Hell, going from the grinder to an 8000 would "work". I value my Norton stones, as I like them and really don't want to shell out more money on them by misusing them, so I try to spread the work out evenly amongst the stones, not putting too much wear on one or the other. I think you could try it and see, but if you are spending too much time on the 8k then I'd put a buffer in there like the 4k. As I said, some people find the 4k to be a waste of time, but I use it every time.

It's funny how we all have a different method.

[Chris Griggs]

I think to some extent it depends on how well you maintain your primary bevel/keep your micro bevel small. I currently go from 1000 Norton to 8000 and it works great when the micro bevels are small. As the micro bevel grows I do start to find myself spending too much time on my 8000, especially with my A2 blades (though I've yet to feel a need for a 4000).

However, going full circle on this thread, that's the main reason I chimed in on about the WS 2000. It seems like it would be a quick, clean, space efficient way to maintain my primary bevels, thus keeping my micro bevels small, thus saving me time when I use my stones.

[David Weaver]

Chris, are you using two bevels or three?, or are you talking about using a hollow grind?

You should switch to a third bevel if you are using two. Something very coarse to do a 25 degree primary bevel, and then do most of the work to prepare the edge with the 1000 stone every time and take very few passes with an 8000 stone, no matter how fat the secondary bevel is becoming.

I don't know if the Ws2000 can burn edges, but I do remember looking at the 2000 next to the 3000 and noting that the 2000 runs at a much much higher rpm.

In my experience with three shaptons, with the middle stone being a 5000, the only time I really use the 5000 is when i'm either honing something that's never going to see the 15k stone or when I'm polishing the back of something new.

As far as two stones, i think larry williams uses two stones with oilstones even, and always goes quickly to the grinder if that is slow at all rather than getting a third middle stone. I know i've seen him say that several times.

[Mark Roderick]

Personally, I would get rid of the Worksharp and use the money on stones.

[Chris Griggs]

hmmmmm. I only use 2 bevels. So your saying that you effectively remove the 3rd bevel with each 1000 grit sharpening, and then create a new micro bevel on the 8000 each time?

I would not have thought to try that. Seems like a good way to grind less often.

And you are correct about the WS 2000. I believe it spins at a least 2x the speed of the 3000. I'm told you can burn an edge if your not careful, but its harder to do than on a wheel.

[David Weaver]

Yes, on the three bevels. As long as the primary is reasonably shallow, you can still do that and have a decent relief angle on a plane iron. It is much easier to remove the secondary bevel's metal with a 1000 chisel and do a tiny strip of a final bevel than it is to polish the entire secondary bevel. The difference is very slight, i think charlesworth advocates another 2 degrees or so from the secondary to the tertiary bevel. If you use a honing guide, if you have stops, it takes very little time to run an iron through secondary and tertiary bevels without screwing around and measuring projection, etc, with a rule.

I never do that on chisels, though, I don't really like to go higher than 25 degrees if I can help it, so they just get a hollow grind. Same principle, though, 2 stones, a 1000 and a 15,000 and as soon as the tiny bevels have any appreciable size, I grind them (every third hone or so, depending on just how beat the edge gets, sometimes every two - it takes almost no time to run them back to near no microbevel on a dry grinder).

[Chris Griggs]

I will definitely try that. I do use stops to set my honing guide, but since the 3rd/"tertiary bevel is removed each time it doesn't seem like I'd even need to bother with a stop for that (although I would probably would use a stop anyway).

Could probably just set the guide with the secondary bevel and than pull it in about an 8th of an inch to put on the 3rd bevel. It wouldn't matter if it was the same each time since it always gets removed.

Great advice David, as always.

[Tri Hoang]

I'd take the stones over the WS3K any day for the same reasons I chose to hand tools over most power tools. FWIW, I've tried the WS3K and the Veritas's version as well. After the initial honing, I think the stones can be as fast if not faster than the WS3K, with very fine control.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have had a Tormek and quite a few stones of various types for quite a while. More recently I bought a small belt sander of the size and type that knife makers use; now I use it for most of my heavy or grinding type work. The selection of belts available for belt sanders at knife making suppliers is quite extensive now. I even have two different leather belts with two different grits applied. Although you can heat metal up with a belt sander it is much easier to keep things cool than with a regular grinder, close to the newer motorized systems using abrasives. If you are looking for speed I think you would have a hard time beating a small belt sander. I still want a few diamond stones for quick but more controlled work.

[Terry Beadle]

I'd use the work sharp for preparing the primary bevel.

I'd buy a Ice Bear 10,000 instead of a 8000. I think it makes a really fine edge. I'd use a MK II jig to make a micro bevel on the Ice Bear and not use the work sharp for that purpose.

+1 for green abrasive for quick edge honing while in action at the bench.

My advice is worth every bit of 2 cents....hoot!

Enjoy the shavings !

[Andrew Nemeth]

Thank you all for your insight. It sounds like I should keep the WS 3000 and also purchase a few waterstones. There is a certain romance to the idea of sharpening on stones but as I look at a set of 12 Record chisels I need to flatten and sharpen the WS seems a little more practical to begin with.

Thanks again!

[Salem Ganzhorn]

John,
If I remember correctly I picked up a Spyderco stone based on one of your posts comparing it favorably to your water stones and shaptons. I think it is great! I had previously only owned oil stones. It cuts much faster than my hard Arkansas stone and yields a better edge. Have you changed your mind and gone back to your shapton and nortons?
Salem

[John Coloccia]

John,
If I remember correctly I picked up a Spyderco stone based on one of your posts comparing it favorably to your water stones and shaptons. I think it is great! I had previously only owned oil stones. It cuts much faster than my hard Arkansas stone and yields a better edge. Have you changed your mind and gone back to your shapton and nortons?
Salem

I use them all, Salem. I love my Spyderco. I guess it really depends on what I'm trying to achieve. I can't really describe what makes me choose one over the other, and maybe it's just my mood. It all works very well for me. Oil stones don't work well for me so I don't use them (or I should say I just think there are other solutions which work better). I have to be careful because I'm finding that saying anything negative will get angry responses from everyone who's ever used an oil stone with great results. This is all just what I personally like and don't like. I don't like the lower grit Nortons, or the natural stones, because I don't like soaking anything.

If I have the water handy (let's say I'm Tormeking for instance), I may use the Norton and/or Shapton for my plane irons because my Spyderco isn't wide enough to accommodate a wide plane iron in a jig. Sometimes I just feel like using the jig. I'm sure there are people that use wide plane irons in a jig with a narrow Spyderco, but I don't. Sometimes I have no water handy, and I just hone the wide iron freehand on the Spyderco by making small circles. I've been told that the moon will crack, and my irons will fall apart by doing that, and that I should go straight. And then I see people like Cosman going in circles, he's been doing it for a while, and the moon's still there so I feel better :)

I have lots of sharpening stuff available to me so I get to pick and choose based on whim and whatever happens to be most convenient at that time.

Some people collect chisels, and some people collect old planes. I collect sharpening stuff :D

[Salem Ganzhorn]

Thanks for the clarification. I do appreciate the initial plug for sypderco stones. I bought the wide one (8x3) so it would be fine for an iron with a jig (although I don't use a jig). I haven't wanted a finer stone since I picked it up and I gave away my hard arkansas stone :).
Good luck with your sharpening quest!
Salem