Waterstone Quandry

[Ryan Fee]

So I think I have too many waterstones and I don't know what to do with them.

A little back story: For the longest time my sharpening was done on a norton cool wheel or 1" belt and then a quick lick on the felt buffing wheel. You can imagine what the results were like. Looking for better performance, I dug out an old 1000x Sun Tiger water stone of my dad's. It was severely dished, but after flattening I put it to use. Looking for even better performance, I started fooling around with 3m 5 micron paper. I wasn't thrilled with it, so I bought a new King 4000x waterstone. It did exactly what I wanted, and life was simple.

The problem comes from me being a sucker for a good deal. The other week I responded to a Kijiji ad for some hand tools for sale, and pretty well ended buying the guy out completely. In that lot were an 800x King (brand new in box for $10) and an 8000x (used for $5). So now I've got more stones than I know what to do with. (sorry'bout the stealth gloat)

My currently plan is to use the 1000x for lapping my primary microbevels and then move to the 4000x for jobsite tools and 8000x for tools that stay in the workshop. The 800x would be saved for rougher work that isn't bad enough to justify regrinding.

The the tools being sharpened are almost all chisels and planes.

If anyone has other suggestions, i'm all ears.

Thanks

[Chris Fournier]

I've got the stones that you describe and a couple more. The stones that see the most constant use in my shop for plane, chisel, shave, knife sharpening are: 800/4000/6000/8000. I hit the stones after I grind a bevel on my dry bench grinder with a 60 grit white wheel.

I know that there are other sequences that could work but I have chosen this sequence because the 800 cuts quickly and deals with the bevel off the grinder nicely. The 4000 cleans up the 800 with little effort. Now the 6000 is in there because I found that the 8000 did not remove all traces of the 4000. The 6000 was required but I knew that the 8000 gave me the final surface quality that I wanted in most instances. That is the goofy path to my present process.

I have an 880/220 combo which sees little use and a 1200 that also sees little use. Every now and then these stones come into play for a knife edge but if they disappeared I'd likely not miss them.

[Gary Hodgin]

Actually I think you have a pretty good setup. I have a similar setup with Norton combination stones. I have a 220/1000 and a 4000/8000 that work pretty well. Some might say you could get by without the 800 and/or 4000, but I think the 800 would be useful for dull but regrind unwarranted situations. I also like the 4000 before polishing with the 8000, although some folks get by with 1000 to 8000. I'd say experiment and see if you think the 800 and/or 4000 are not needed. I definitely keep the 1000 and 8000. Sounds like you got a great deal on your stones and probably don't want to sell something and realize you made a mistake.

[Jim Koepke]

Ryan,

Welcome to the Waterworld of sharpening.

I would say you haven't even begun to have enough stones for sharpening.

Right now I have one small bench that is for water stones only. Some have been acquired when buying multiple stones others one at a time. There are a few water slip stones and as the bigger stones wear they will likely also become slip stones.

Next to the water bench it is my power sharpening set up. Across the shop is a bench that among all the other stuff is about a half dozen oil stones. There is also a large stone wheel in my shop that I hope to build a stand to hold it this year and have a grinding wheel.

In my mind, I am just getting started.

jtk

[Ryan Fee]

@ Jim: Fair enough, apparently I am just getting started. The thing is, do I actually need all the grits I have? I an currently on the look out for a 220x water stone, and can see the usefulness of oilstones/ceramics for odd shaped stuff, but I feel like the stones I currently have are just overlapping each other. That being said, I've got lots of tools that overlap each other is purpose, but I have no intent in getting rid of any of them.

[Gary Hodgin]

Ryan,
This grit comparison chart might help.
Gary

I removed this chart. It was flawed and an updated chart is posted below.

[Casey Gooding]

Sounds like a plan to me.

[Stuart Tierney]

Hi Ryan,

Before I go any further, I will tell you that I do sell waterstones, quite a few of them. I won't be trying to sell you anything here, goes against my principles.

Because I sell them, it means I can get them a lot cheaper than most of you folks can, so I have quite a few of them and test them as thoroughly as possible.

The stones you have right now are perfectly adequate for most woodworking tools. If you are only using microbevels on relatively simple steels like O1, A2 and anything less tough than those two, stick with what you have and be happy, they'll work just fine. If the steel is much tougher the previously mentioned steels, like HSS or D2, then your stones might struggle a little. Just not made for that kind of stuff. If you decide to start making your current stones abrade a lot of steel as you would working a full bevel face, then again you might run into some trouble with regards to dishing, not cutting as quickly as you might expect and they'll be messy.

Choosing the right stone is a balance of what steel you plan to use with the stone, how much steel you are going to abrade and what other 'niceties' you want from the stone. Since you already have the stones, you can't match stone to steel, but you can now make sure you don't ask the stones to do more than they are able to do.


Gary, that stone grit comparison chart is flawed. It uses the old standard for measuring how large the abrasive particles in the stone are, and completely disregards the current standard. I've found this one (http://members.cox.net/%7Eyuzuha/jisgrit1.html) does have the up to date JIS standard and is better for comparing the old standard stones (as on the PWW chart) with the current standard stones (pretty much everything else not on the chart).

Hope that helps, and good luck with your sharpening. ;)

Stu.

[Gary Hodgin]

Stu,
Thanks for the updated chart.
Gary

[Graham Hughes (CA)]

Honestly, my thinking is whatever coarse techniques float your boat; 800x isn't a bad place to start, I use a 1000x Norton I'm reasonably happy with. I don't like the Norton 220 (not aggressive enough, IMHO, especially considering how fast it wears), but you might want something that range to flatten backs etc. with. 8000x is fine enough to get pretty darn sharp, although I sharpen everything I own, even jack and scrub planes, to that level and then strop them.

[john brenton]

Ryan:
Don't get the 220 Norton. I never liked the surface it left, and it will dish out in two seconds. You'll be left with a stone a cm thick in no time.

I suggest the DMT extra coarse/coarse. I got a new 10" x 3" stone from eb for about $80 (shipping included). It's great for taking long light strokes and for using a jig. Some people don't like the DMTs some do. It's all about choosing the tool for the job...and to me the Norton 220 is worthless. The 1000 isn't bad, but I never found a use for it. My 220/1000 is just sitting in it's box deteriorating.

If you're using a water stone or diamond stone to do the work of a grinder, you are going to wear out your stones too fast. If you're using an 8000 to do the work of a 1000, you're going to wear it out too fast. I like to shape the edge on the grinder without much concern about getting it perfect...just some shaping and establishing the angle, making it square, etc.. Then to the DMT extra-coarse for removing any irregularity i made while grinding, the coarse for preparing the surface for honing, then to the 4000 water stone, and a mirror polish on the 8000.

Everyone has a preference, but I'm very happy with mine.

[Jim Koepke]

Ryan,

I am in agreement on suggesting the 220 grit is a waste. Your money would be better spent on a good hunk of granite and adhesive backed sand papers.

My 220x came with a group of stones bought from another Creeker and my 800x stone was bought before knowing a lot about water stones. Neither of them have been used recently.

Once a good edge has been established it will last a long time as long as it is maintained regularly. I prefer a few minutes every now and then to maintain a flat bevel instead of letting it get so worn it requires a lot of work to regrind and hone to sharpness. This is just one of the reasons that micro bevels are not on my blades. They are hard to maintain freehand. The extra time it takes to set up to do a quick touch up would likely not be spent. Then after a while, the hole edge needs to be reestablished.

If a blade of mine does need regrinding, it is quick to do on my granite slab with 80 grit sandpaper or on my Mk II Power Sharpening System. Grinding a coarse bevel and then hitting it on 1000x, 8000x and then a quick stropping does the job.

Most times a quick honing on the 8000x is all my blades need. If they have been used a little too much before honing, then a drop to the 4000x first. If there is a small nick, the 2000x gets used. A bit bigger nick, the 1000x has a go at it. Much more than that and it is either the 4' strip of 80x on granite or a brush with power.

If it is too cold for water in the shop, then this will take place with the oil stones.

The 8000x will get a bit finer edge than the Arkansas stone, but a bit of stropping will get it pretty close.

jtk

[Ryan Fee]

Stu, Thanks for the chart, thats certainly the most comprehensive that I've seen. I assume that 'JIS' refers to Japanese waterstones? As for trying to sell me me a stone, good god man, I'm trying to justify the ones I have, not acquire more ;)

Thats disappointing to hear about the Norton 220x. Anyone had any experience with the big 200x SiC stone that Lee Valley sells?

The reason I'm trying to go the non powered route for grinding is a lack of space. The bench grinder and 1" belt are buried in the back of a garage that is stuffed to the doors. Accessing them is a major ordeal. All my stones are with my bench tucked in the corner of the basement. Moving the power equipment inside isn't an option, but I need the ability to deal with nicks and touch up the primary bevel on tools if I want them to perform.

Two options come to mind. I've got the granite reference plate that I use with 220x paper to flatten the stones, so I can try 80x psa backed paper. The other option is a 90x/600x oil stone that I've got for sharpening odd shaped stuff. I've got a couple of chisels with major nicks in them, so I'll attempt both methods and see which works best.

I sharpen with micro bevels, and use the ruler trick for the backs of blades, so stone life and dishing isn't the biggest of concerns.

I'm going to spends a couple hours at the bench honing tomorrow, so we'll see whether I gain any insight.

[Michael MacDonald]

for those who don't like the 220 norton, I got a 250/1000 japanese stone from rockler... don't know what it is called--something in japanese. I like the 250 side. doesn't seem to wear down too fast... I also have the norton 4000/8000. I use all four grits, but come back to 1000/4000/8000 unless I am fixing a chip. I flatten before every new tool... I wonder if that is too much?

[michael osadchuk]

[QUOTE=Ryan Fee;1626733]Thats disappointing to hear about the Norton 220x. Anyone had any experience with the big 200x SiC stone that Lee Valley sells?
QUOTE]

About two or three years ago I returned the Norton 220 grit stone to Lee Valley - as others mentioned, I found it wore away very, very fast - and bought the big 200 grit dark grey waterstone LV also sells. I've been happy with it: it does wear near as fast, cuts much more aggressively than my King 800 grit and reflattens just like my other waterstones.
If you want to try sharpening without a secondary bevel and not use a bench grinder (or other motorized sharpener) the 200 grit stone makes removing steel from the entire bevel reasonably practicable.

good luck

michael

[Johnny Kleso]

Stuart,

600 grit cami is about 16 microns not 23 I made this chart several years ago after finding a few dozen and getting info from Norton and making my own.. I am not to sure about old and new JIS but the differences 3-4/1000 of a mm are next to nothing...

http://home.comcast.net/~rexmill/sharpening/grit_sizes/Abrasive_grit_sizes.htm

PS: I also hate the Norton Crystalon stone and start with a Norton Medium India stone any thing that needs something coarser talks to Mr. Bench Grinder..

Cheap one is $30-$40 and saves lots of elbow grease..

[Stuart Tierney]

Stuart,

600 grit cami is about 16 microns not 23 I made this chart several years ago after finding a few dozen and getting info from Norton and making my own.. I am not to sure about old and new JIS but the differences 3-4/1000 of a mm are next to nothing...

http://home.comcast.net/~rexmill/sharpening/grit_sizes/Abrasive_grit_sizes.htm

PS: I also hate the Norton Crystalon stone and start with a Norton Medium India stone any thing that needs something coarser talks to Mr. Bench Grinder..

Cheap one is $30-$40 and saves lots of elbow grease..

Your chart is about 22 years out of date...

And the chart I linked to does not mention CAMI grades, so I'm not sure what you're looking at now.


In case anyone else is now confused, Shapton and Norton use the old JIS grading system, which puts #1000 at about 15 micron, and you halve the grit size every time you double the grit/mesh number.

Pretty much everyone else who makes waterstones uses JIS 6001-1998 which puts #1000 at about 12 micron, and the grit size/mesh number change is the same.

Basically means that the Shapton and Norton are about 20% coarser for the same grit number compared to anything else. And sorry Johnny, it does make a difference, I have proof. ;)

[Ryan Fee]

Uh-oh, just picked up a hss plane iron for a wooden plane project. Is it going to be an issue if I tackle it with water stones?

[Stuart Tierney]

With your Kings?

Good luck with that...

Maybe, if you're very lucky and stick to the tiniest micro bevel, you'll get away with them. Maybe.

For just one iron that's not really compatible with King stones, I'd be looking at using some diamond paste for the times it needs sharpening. If you wind up with a lot of irons/chisels that are not really suited to the Kings (HSS, D2, very hard A2) then I'd strongly suggest that you look for stones that are designed for HSS.

If you end up with only a few tough blades, then better ceramic stones would be enough, dealing with the plain steels easily, and toughing it out on the hard stuff all the way to a sharp edge.

There's a balance point in there, because the HSS stones get used up quicker because they are not terribly hard, but they are fast, seriously fast. The ceramics are hard, but cut more slowly on really hard steel. You'd need to decide where your priorities lie before jumping on one or the other.

But you're not there yet. I'd google "diamond paste plane iron sharpening" or similar, and put my thoughts and efforts toward that for the moment.


Stu.

[John Coloccia]

Uh-oh, just picked up a hss plane iron for a wooden plane project. Is it going to be an issue if I tackle it with water stones?

My suggestion would be to grab some water, a chisel and a bit of time, and go play with the stones you have. Personally, I think a course/fine DMT DUO would be a good addition to your stable because it works well for flattening (course), and general bevel work (course&fine) but you've already got a nice selection of stones. I'm assuming you have a way to flatten them? A strop would be a fine addition as well. I'm not a huge fan of the 1000 or 4000 Norton, nor water stones under 1000 grit in general, so I don't use them. You have them so you should at least try them.

Why are you dumping the cool wheel? Why not use that to establish your bevels? If you did that, you could probably go right to the 8000 Norton with your hollow grind and get good results. If all I had was a wheel, an 8000 and a strop, I could survive. :)

[Ryan Fee]

@Stu: Yeah, I've seen the paste at lee valley, but never tried it. How long does a tube last? At $33 for three tubes, that makes a diamond bench stone look more attractive. I don't imagine that my oilstone would be any more effective on the hss than the waterstones? Hypothetically, if someone were looking for a dedicated hss sharpening setup, what would you recommend for them?

@John: I love the cool wheel and certainly don't intend to part with it. The issue is accessibility. Its buried in the back of an overstuffed garage and all my hand tools and stones are tucked in the basement. I use the cool wheel to establish my primary bevel, grind out nicks, etc. I was hoping for a way to deal with minor nicks that wouldn't require me to take a half an hour to unpack the garage (indoor power sharpening isn't an option at this time.
I flatten my stones with sandpaper on granite. I own a hand strop as well, though i've only ever used it for knives.

[Derby Matthews]

I know this thread is about water stones, and I have a 4K and 12K set, but I do 90% of my sharpening, flattening, and honing on DMT monocrystaline Diamond plates.

These are the more expensive ones that are solid metal-backed, not the plastic-bodied units that don't hold up well and are IMHO essentially a waste of money. What I have learned is that the widely available plastic plates made with "polycrystaline" diamonds break down MUCH more quickly than an equivalent grit monocrystaline unit. I have MonoC plates in 220 to 1200 grit (four plates) and use these on all my cutting tools (and cast iron tool tables as well) to get me to where my 4k Waterstone can take over if need be, and if the waterstone gets a bit hollowed out I can use the diamond plates to re-flatten them in a jiffy. I find this combination works much better for me than my surface plate and sandpaper, which always seems to bunch up or dog ear, especially when I do big stuff. I can also say with some authority that nothing I've ever used will flatten a big Cast iron surface faster and easier than my extra coarse + coarse plates. I've had them about ten years now, and they still work as good a new. The metal bodies do not rust, no matter how many times I neglect to wipe them off. A bit of clorox cleans them right away just by pouring a capful on and wiping it off.

BTW DMT also has these in " tongue depressor" shaped set, a "Business card" set, and has fairly recently come out with a carving gouge double sided obliquely curved plate that looks like a piece of very wavy sheet metal, in 600 and 1200 grit. These work like a charm too. BTW Ryan, the diamond paste works really well if you want to put a lapped, mirror finish on something. I don't usually bother with that step. This sounds like an ad for DMT, but I have no financial interest in pushing these.

Awhile back I sold every oil stone I inherited from my dad (a bunch of them) and apart from nostalgia have never missed them once. Some lucky creeker got them for a dime on a dollar. We're both happy.

[Johnny Kleso]

Your chart is about 22 years out of date...

And the chart I linked to does not mention CAMI grades, so I'm not sure what you're looking at now.


In case anyone else is now confused, Shapton and Norton use the old JIS grading system, which puts #1000 at about 15 micron, and you halve the grit size every time you double the grit/mesh number.

Pretty much everyone else who makes waterstones uses JIS 6001-1998 which puts #1000 at about 12 micron, and the grit size/mesh number change is the same.

Basically means that the Shapton and Norton are about 20% coarser for the same grit number compared to anything else. And sorry Johnny, it does make a difference, I have proof. ;)

I was thinking when you said Grit you where talking Cami after checking its all JIS.. When I see Grit I assume Cami unless stated other....

As far as saying they are 20% coarser true but NOT the way I think and makes NO difference IMHO


Basically means that the Shapton and Norton are about 20% coarser for the same grit number compared to anything else. And sorry Johnny, it does make a difference, I have proof. ;)
Its like saying 200 grit cami is much coarse then 220 cami (5 Micron difference) makes a huge difference in finish..
It may be 20% numerically but not 20% on the whole range of scale

Your talking 3 or 4 microns in inches thats 0.0001181099" or 0.0001574798"

[Stuart Tierney]

Actually, I'm talking less than 3-4 micron, and the difference stands out like a piece of excrement in a bowl of alcoholic fruit juice.

But I'm not going to bother trying to convince you of that, waste of my time and yours.

Stu.