I am looking for any information on this back saw...

[Steve K Duncan]

I picked this up a year or so ago on everybodies' favorite online auction site.
Hadn't paid much attention to it until just recently.

I have no idea how old it is or who made it.
the measurements are:
12" long - tapered blade
2" deep at the heel, tapers down to 1.25" at the toe.
11 TPI - Rip filed
Steel back stamped with "T. NEAL GERMAN STEEL"
No other Makers' marks.
2 Split Nut screws - Single cove open handle.

Pics:
180452
180453
180454
180455
180456
180457
180458


I had also posted these at 'backsaw.net' and Ray there was trying to find out info for me too - I figured I would do well to spread my attempts far and wide...

Also, before I forget, there seems to have been an additional stamping, probably before 'GERMAN STEEL' as it looks like some letters were overlaid by that stamp.
Could be 'GUARANTEED'?

Anyway, I appreciate any and all assistance!
Steve

[Zach Dillinger]

I can't help with the maker, but I can tell you something about German steel. The book Tools: Working Wood in the 18th Century by James Gaynor and Nancy Hagedorn discusses this type of metal. The quote is:

"One of the most important improvements in edge tools during the eighteenth century was the introduction of better steel for their construction. For most of the century, cutting edges of tools were made either of German steel or blister steel. German steel, imported into England through Germany, was made directly from cast iron by reducing its carbon content."

So, it looks like German steel was used in the eighteenth century. Hope this helps.

Zach

[Steve K Duncan]

Thanks Zach - I have seen some history on that subject and realized that by that estimate it makes my saw seem pretty old, but looking at the handle it doesn't seem THAT old. Of course, the handle could be a replacement too.
Also, the split screws seem very unaffected by age, which makes me wonder if they are not original either.

the saw blade itself has a bit of a side-to-side wave in the middle which I am not sure how to fix, but I can tell that this saw has been re-sharpened, perhaps many times as there is a easily discernible cove to the blade. If you place it blade down, you can easily see it rise up from the toe to its height in the center and then back down at the heel.

Overall, I am pretty sure that the blade is old, but the handle may be more recent.

On Backsaw.net, Ray found a T.Neal who was a maker of grinding equipment in England back a ways. But it said nothing about saws, so either that is not the maker or saws were a very minor side-business of theirs.

Anyway, thanks for the response and I hope I receive more!

Steve

[Jim Koepke]

Steve,

Welcome to the Creek.

I have no information about your saw as far as the maker is concerned.

I think George Wilson has mentioned one way to get a wave out of a back saw if it is not actually bent. As I recall it involved securing one end of the saw in a vise and tapping the other end to pull the wave out. This works if the wave is caused by the saw plate slipping one way or the other in the back and becoming "compressed."

As far as the cove is concerned, this is why a saw needs an occasional jointing to level the tooth line.

This is where learning to sharpen saws becomes a needed skill for the neander wood worker. This looks like a fine little dovetail saw.

If you are not yet skilled in the art of saw sharpening, you may want to find an old saw at a yard sale to learn sharpening and then file it flat and learn toothing a saw before applying your file to this old saw.

jtk

[george wilson]

England always had trouble with their native iron due to sulfur. They knew nothing about chemistry until later,and did import much iron from other countries like Sweden and Germany. The process for making crucible,or "Cast steel" was invented in England in 1740.Even then,Swedish wrought iron probably made for the best steel since it had no sulfur. The Germans also mined iron with a natural tungsten content,which was very desirable,though no one knew the chemistry of it. Spanish gun barrels were highly prized,as were Italian. They thought the air in Spain was better for making iron!!

Try clamping your saw by the front end of the blade in a vise. Tap he front end of the saw back. This will jerk the blade straight if the problem was caused by the blade slipping a little in the back. I have had to adjust some old saws that way. I got my favorite closed handle Groves saw cheap because the vendor thought it was a goner . If that doesn't work, take the handle off. Clamp the saw upside down at one end of the back in a vise horizontally. Don't crush it,just clamp it. Then,adjust a crescent wrench to fit the back,and GENTLY twist the back right below the wave in the direction to straighten it,holding the wrench at 90º to the back,and turning it side to side to twist the back in a vertical direction while it is held horizontally. I HOPE this is clear. Do this to the other waves. By this method,you can make the cutting edge straight without noticeable curves in the back.

I did this,too,while making batches of back saws. The natural tendency is to twist the back lengthways till the edge is straight,but then you end up with a curved,snaky back,which is not desirable.

[greg Forster]

" German Steel" was also stamped on saws in the late 1800s (19th c)

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Steve,

You will no doubt, pick up this possibility from the other forum, but I'll repost it here, just for the record.

Simon Barley, suggests that one possibility might be ..

Theodore Neal, tool merchant in Taunton (county town of Somerset) in 1889, but not any other years. The appearance of this saw would fit that, I think.

Maybe the good folks at Taunton Press might be interested? :)

German Steel, has always confused me, it was used over a long period of time, up to the late 1800's usually on a lower priced secondary product line.
Descriptions of exactly what it was, and how it was made vary widely, and may even have meant different things in different places and times.

According to Ken Roberts, (some 19th century woodworking tools) German steel differed in that it was produced directly from molten pig iron, he notes that considerable quantities were imported into
Sheffield for cutlery and edge tools before the advent of crucible steel around 1740.

On saws, the "German Steel mark" appears to date from the early 1800's maybe 1820 onwards

Beardshaw lists 4 grades of steel for saws in 1820

Common Steel 3/6
German Steel 5/4
Cast Steel 6/2
Warranted Cast Steel 8/6


Regards
Ray

[Steve K Duncan]

Thanks Ray (and everybody else) - this is already a lot more detail than I had come up with on my own! I appreciate the assistance!

Steve

[Don McConnell]

Hi Steve,

The T. Neal marking may well relate to Theodore Neal, as noted by Simon Barley on another forum. I, too, found an 1889 Somerset Directory listing for him, but it indicates he had two locations in Yeovil rather than Taunton:

"Neal Theodore (late Cox & Son), general and furnishing ironmonger, agricultural implement agent, cutlery, lock, nail, tool, bedsteads, perambulators, stoves, guns, ammunition & oil & color warehouse, 28 Middle st. & 20 Vicarage st. [Yeovil]" In the trades listings, he is included under "Tool Merchants."

I have additionally found information that he took over the Cox & Son ironmongery firm, at 28 Middle Street, due to debt, on August 31, 1888. Additionally, "T. Neal" is listed as a creditor to a Yeovil builder on December 16, 1891. So it appears he continued in business as Theodore Neal until that time, at least. Sometime between then and 1897, he took on Charles Williams as a partner, and the business continued under the name of Neal & Williams, at 26 Middle Street and 20 Vicarage Street, until, at least, 1914. Though by the latter date, the operation had scaled back to the Middle Street address only.

So, if your saw was marked "T. Neal" for sale by this firm, it's most likely dates of manufacture would be from 1888 to 1891 ... possibly as late as 1896.

As to the German Steel marking, that almost certainly refers to what is also known as "Shear Steel."

Prior to the development of the cementation process, one of the methods of producing steel was to remelt cast iron, which has a carbon content of about 4%, in a finery furnace then burning carbon out by blowing air through it. The difficulty with this approach was knowing when to stop the process so as to retain adequate carbon. And, of course, this difficulty was exacerbated because the steel makers didn't understand the role of carbon. However, as K. C. Barraclough says (in _Sheffield Steel_, 1976):

" ... Nevertheless a process had been developed in Austria whereby, after almost completing the finery process, some fresh cast-iron was introduced and worked into the metal; with a bit of luck the forged product would harden on quenching and thus they had managed to produce steel. Such was the material imported into Sheffield in the seventeenth century; it came in via the Rhine valley and therefore became known as 'German Steel' (or even 'Cullen Steel' since it passed through Cologne on its journey here)."

But that is not the whole story. Cementation (blister) steel was first developed around 1600 (also in Germany) and this process began to be established in parts of England by mid-seventeenth century. Then, around the end of the 17th century, the making of shear steel was introduced into the Newcastle area by William Bertram. This involved selecting bars of blister steel for the intended usage (through a fracture test), cutting them into shorter lengths, bundling them together, then hot forging them into an ingot. As Barraclough states (_Steelmaking Before Bessemer_, 1984):

"... Bertram had built up a reputation for quality in this way; since he was a German, it seems to have been accepted that he had produced the true German steel - this presumably is where the later confusion between German steel and shear steel arose."

(Incidentally, Bertram's mark was a stamp showing crossed shear blades.)

This is borne out by later sources. The diary of a Mr. Hatchett, who visited a Sheffield steel making operation in 1796, briefly described the cementation process, then added: "To form what is called German Steel the Blistered Bar Steel is forged under hammers and reduced even occasionally (as for watchmakers etc.) to the size of one eighth of an inch square."

Obviously, he left out the steps of cutting the bars to shorter lengths and bundling the pieces before hot forging into an ingot, but this description makes it clear that blister steel was used in producing "German Steel." (Incidentally, blister steel bars were subsequently refined under tilt hammers or rolled, which later came to be known as "common steel.")

While some confusion continued, a number of late 18th and early 19th century sources (including _The Edinburgh Magazine_, 1798, _The Encyclopedia Britannica_, 1823, _The Universal Dictionary of Arts, Sciences, and Literature_, 1819, _The Emporium of Arts and Sciences_, 1813, and Charles Holtzapffel's _Turning & Mechanical Manipulation_, 1846) treat it as a given that the terms shear steel and German steel were interchangeable. By this time, cementation and crucible steel making was in full swing in Sheffield, so I think it unlikely that much, if any, of the original German steel was being imported into England for making saws and edge tools.

Hope this has been of some help.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Don,

Great information,

Thanks for the detailed summary regarding German Steel, the use of the mark "German Steel" on saws in the 19th century,
has always been confusing and is sometimes difficult to relate directly to earlier usage of the term.

I looked up Theodore Neal in Kelly's 1889 Directory of Somerset, and Simon and youself are both referring to the same gentleman

The question remaining, is did he ever make saws, or have saws stamped with his own mark?

His home address in 1889 was 12 Ram Park Yeovil, and the directory entries are interesting.

This is the main entry..

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/T_Neal.jpg

He also appears multiple times in various sections,

Agricultural Implement Agents & Dealers
Ammunition Manufacturers
Bedstead Warehouse
Cutlers
Retail IronMongers
Perambulator Makers
Nail Makers
Oil and Colour Men
Stove and Range Makers
Gun Makers
Tool Merchants

The picture emerges of a business which makes everything under the sun, from guns to nails, prams and stoves...
With such a diverse range of products and manufacturing going on, in multiple premises, it's entirely plausible that he
made saws, or at least had saws made with his mark.

The other factor to be taken into account, is that we really don't have any other candidates for the maker of this particular saw,
so simply by a process of elimination, he would seem to be not just a plausible candidate, but the only candidate.

I suspect he will turn up again, maybe in the customer lists of one of the Sheffield makers..

Regards
Ray
PS. with your permission, I would like to post your reply above in the backsaw.net forum.