Home Theater surround sound setup advice needed [Archive]

Larry Browning

01-29-2011, 11:55 AM

I am in the process of researching setting up a low to mid-range Surround Sound setup in the living room to compliment my new 55" Samsung LED tv that I got for Christmas.
I am looking for advice on speaker purchase and placement. I have checked out some of the Home Theater forums but these seem to be geared toward the high end stuff that I cannot afford (or want to, for that matter) I would rather spend that kind of money on woodworking! So I am turning to my friends here at the creek for some sane advise.
I have built a tv cabinet to sit it on 180254

The front speakers will be behind the doors on each end of the cabinet. The cabinet sits directly below the peak of a vaulted ceiling which runs perpendicular to the cabinet. The room is 16X17 with the main seating area about 9-10 ft directly in front of the TV. I am planning on a 5.1 setup. Speaker selection and placement (especially the surround speakers) is my biggest issue at this point. Right now I am leaning toward getting in-ceiling speakers mounted in the vaulted ceiling positioned slightly behind and to the side of the seating area. At this point this seems to be my best option for the surround speakers due to hardwood floors on a slab. I have talked to some co-workers that have a similar setup that say it works well.

Components I currently have and therefore feel I must continue to use:
2 Cerwin-Vega RE Series 20 Front Speakers
1 Technics center speaker that came with my 20 year old receiver (I might want to replace this in the future)

Components I have decided on but do not own yet:
Onkyo HT-RC270 $479 at Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-HT-RC270-7-2-Channel-Network-Receiver/dp/B003K51IPI/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I13WFCIUJV78S8&colid=2TC0X2ILMOSST)
Yamaha YST-SW216BL Advanced YST II Front-Firing Active Subwoofer
(http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-YST-SW216BL-Advanced-Front-Firing-Subwoofer/dp/B000FJ89UO/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I3R3K0UAVN4H3R&colid=2TC0X2ILMOSST)

Components I am considering in no particular order:
Yamaha NS-IW360C 2-Way In-Ceiling Speaker System, White Set of 2 (http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-NS-IW360C-Ceiling-Speaker-System/dp/B00097CUIE/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I18EC5H6XXB54G&colid=2TC0X2ILMOSST)

Micca M-8C 8 Inch 2-Way In-Ceiling In-Wall Speaker (http://www.amazon.com/Micca-M-8C-Ceiling-Speaker-Pivoting/dp/B002YPS6T6/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2Q5WEFCDOQ6ES&colid=2TC0X2ILMOSST) (Single speaker so I have to buy 2)

AudioSource AC6C 6.5-Inch In-Ceiling Speakers (Pair) (http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AC6C-6-5-Inch-Ceiling-Speakers/dp/B003S3RLN0/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1TKLHHPGVF0EM&colid=2TC0X2ILMOSST)

Yamaha NS-IW360C 2-Way In-Ceiling Speaker System, White Set of 2 (http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-NS-IW360C-Ceiling-Speaker-System/dp/B00097CUIE/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I18EC5H6XXB54G&colid=2TC0X2ILMOSST)

Pyle Home PDIC80 300-Watt 8-Inch 2-Way In-Ceiling Speaker System (http://www.amazon.com/PDIC80-300-Watt-8-Inch-Ceiling-Speaker/dp/B00069QMPC/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2T3TYC8JOI7DW&colid=2TC0X2ILMOSST)

So after all this, what do you guys think? Is the in-ceiling speaker route workable? If so which one would be my best value? I would like to keep my speaker purchase in $150-175 range.

Eric Franklin

01-29-2011, 2:55 PM

On the speaker end, I don't have much advice. On the receiver, I would look at some other models which could save you some money on the receiver. I have the Onkyo TX-SR607 for a few years and my only complaint is that it runs really hot. I have a friend that has the Pioneer VSX-920-K (http://www.amazon.com/product/dp/B0039XQL44) which Amazon is currently selling for $272.77 which is a similar receiver to the Onkyo. You could just bump up to the Pioneer VSX-1020-K (http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-VSX-1020-K-Home-Theater-Receiver/dp/B0039XQQX0/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1296330616&sr=1-1-) which is $360.00. Yamaha also makes some nice receivers. If I could replace my receiver right now, I would get the Pioneer VSX-1020-K.

Are you planning on getting a Blu-ray player to go with this? The uncompressed audio(Dolby Digital HD or DTS Master Audio) and the 1080p video is worth it with certain movies.

Van Huskey

01-29-2011, 3:16 PM

Larry, may I suggest rethinking the speaker issue. The best solution is to have all 5 or 7 or whatever speakers exactly the same. This however usually gets compromised with the center channel when people go to a horizontal array MTM. That isn't that big a deal as long as the speaker is properly designed. At a minimum get all the speakers from the same company and the same line. I understand the desire to use architectural (in wall/ceiling) but understand that unless you spend seriously big money they are always a big compromise, but it can be worked with but in-ceiling is the worse than in wall. I won't go into further detail unless you ask since the chances of you changing direction this much is very unlikely.

The biggest mistake I see is the subwoofer, think Harbor Freight table saw quality. You are likely better off sound wise not having it. The best bargains in subwoofers are by far the internet direct companies and I will send you a list if you are interested. The subwoofer budget needs to about triple or it is going to be painful to listen, no definition, one note muddy bass.

The bottom line is you need to spend more on speakers even if you have to spend less on electronics. Speakers are like the wood, if you have crappy wood you can have a shop filled with Martin and Felder but it can't fix wood that looks like garbage.

Larry Browning

01-29-2011, 4:59 PM

I have a requirement for the receiver to be networked to play pandora and internet radio. This is my main reason for choosing the Onkyo. It has the best interface by far of anything I looked at. I spent many hours researching this and I am satisfied with my choice. The receiver is not up for discussion. I am tired of looking at receivers and need to move on.
I have a HUGE desire to keep my front speakers. I really like them, they are old, but they produce very good sound, plus I have a sentimental attachment and I built the cabinet around them. I suppose I could be talked into a different subwoofer as long as it is in the $100 range. That only leaves the surround and center speakers. I have a center speaker that I thought I could live with for a while, so my focus has shifted to the surround speakers. My only practical choice seems to be in-ceiling speakers, and I am having a difficult time choosing which ones.
No one would ever mistake me for an audiophile. I met one once and we didn't get along. I have a VERY limited budget when it comes to the speakers, $150-175 is just about it. I don't know, maybe I am fooling myself in thinking I can even do this at all. I AM depressed:confused:

Larry Browning

01-29-2011, 5:06 PM

Are you planning on getting a Blu-ray player to go with this? The uncompressed audio(Dolby Digital HD or DTS Master Audio) and the 1080p video is worth it with certain movies.
I already have the LG BD570 blu-ray player and LOVE it! I use it to stream Netflix movies.

Tim Morton

01-29-2011, 5:32 PM

Hi Larry,

I would say i am a home theater guy first and a wood worker second...so i may be able to help you out here. And i will try not to be one of those pesky audiophile guys that you don't like.

The two most important speakers in the home theater experience will be the subwofer and the center channel. So we will talk to about them next.

The question you asked is about the rear surround speakers, and sure you can do in ceiling speakers...alot of people go that route and its fine. The only way i would not do that is if you would be sitting directly under either one of them? And whos to say you need to mount in ceiling speakers in the ceiling...maybe get some in wall speakers? But don't get too caught up in this part. You said in ceiling was "the only practical" option...care to elaborate a little?

Center Chanel...and this is the audiophile in me...this is what affects the sound of the voices...if you are happy then fine, but that would be my first upgrade based on what you are planning on using.

Subwoofer...humor me and look at something in the 12" size as a minimum...they aren't that much more and you will be much happier.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-635

for rear surround who about these?

http://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-RC85i-2-Way-Speakers/dp/B00006I5O6/ref=pd_cp_pc_1

Brad Knight

01-29-2011, 6:50 PM

I'm a huge Onkyo fan - I would look at the NR-708 receiver as well - similar specs and price - I think 1 more HDMI port. Onkyo is supposed to be coming out with an iPad app to control the whole receiver across the network - there are already some apps that will do that, but with their latest firmware update, I'm curious to see their app. I think both receivers are compatible.

I'm also a Klipsh fan as well - I got a sale flier from newegg in my email with a weekend special on their 5.1 HD-300 speakers for $229 reg $399 with promo code EMCYTZT276. Keep the CV's for your fronts and you'd have your 7.1 system.

Good luck - electronics are as addicting as woodworking -

Larry Browning

01-29-2011, 6:50 PM

Tim,
Thank you so much for your reply! I am slowly coming to realize that my budget is unrealistic. I just spent almost 2 grand on a tv and blu-ray player which really stretched me pretty thin. I was thinking that I could get a pretty decent audio setup for around $600 more, and I would save up for it here and there, and be able to get it before I ran across another "must have" woodworking tool.
I really have my mind set on that receiver, and from what feedback I am getting, my budget needs to be expanded to more like $800.
All of this is just making me feel pretty selfish for wanting all these expensive toys. I have a wonderful wife, children and grand children that could all use some spoiling.
Maybe I am just not ready spend that much more on myself.
Of course I may feel differently about this tomorrow, but for now.....

Tim Morton

01-29-2011, 8:08 PM

Totally understandable...and one way to think aboout the purchase, is will you be able to enjoy this experience with your wife, children and grand children?

Check out this receiver and tell me what you think...i have the SR-6004 and it has a very nice user interface...super simple. The 5004 is a few bucks cheaper...

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR5004/Marantz/SR5004-Dolby-TrueHD-PLIIz/dts-HD-MA-AV-Receiver/1.html

never mind...not a network receiver...sorry.

Larry Browning

01-29-2011, 10:53 PM

Hey Tim, Do these new receivers that have the on screen interfaces display a volume graphic when adjusting the receiver volume like you would see on a TV?
Just wondering.

Larry Browning

01-29-2011, 10:58 PM

Bryan Morgan

01-30-2011, 12:24 AM

Hey Tim, Do these new receivers that have the on screen interfaces display a volume graphic when adjusting the receiver volume like you would see on a TV?
Just wondering.

If you use your receiver to do your video switching they do. You can set them to relative or absolute also.

Bryan Morgan

01-30-2011, 12:29 AM

On the speaker end, I don't have much advice. On the receiver, I would look at some other models which could save you some money on the receiver. I have the Onkyo TX-SR607 for a few years and my only complaint is that it runs really hot. I have a friend that has the .

I have the newer SR608 and it doesn't get that hot. THX and a really nice upscaling processor. I don't think the auto calibrate stuff works all that well though. I can do a better job manually using a test dvd. I have an old SR602 that got a little warm, though not too bad. This is my 3rd or 4th Onkyo. So far they've never let me down.

Eric DeSilva

01-30-2011, 10:51 AM

I say skip the center channel. Most HT processors can create a phantom center using the L & R fronts, which is where most people tend to spend their money (and should spend their money if they listen to a lot of music). In a movie surround set up, the CC tends to carry virtually all of the sound, which means--if you have one--it needs to be the highest quality speaker in your rig. But that investment is relatively useless when you switch to two-channel stereo. On the other hand, any decent front speakers will image well enough to create the illusion of a center channel.

The only upside of a center channel--as far as I can tell--is that it will anchor the dialog to the screen when you have people sitting so far off-axis that a stereo image would be messed up. The cost of that is... increased cost of hardware, increased set-up difficulty (I have seen very few HT set ups with a CC that blended well), and the oddity that most CCs aren't behind the screen, but rather above or below it (which doesn't anchor the sound where you want it anyway). So, unless you expect a lot of people way off axis, I say skip it and let your L & R front carry the load.

But you should take this with a grain of salt. I had a huge, super high end HT set up at one point in my life. Ultimately, however, I decided I didn't care that much about TV, so now the whole thing has devolved into a nice two channel rig for listening to music only.

Larry Browning

01-30-2011, 12:48 PM

I have a couple more random questions On the subject.
1) When I built my house 12 years ago, I thought that one day I might want to put speakers in various parts of the house, so I ran 16ga speaker wire up the wall and into the attic. I have read here and there that 14ga or even 12ga would really make a difference. It would save me quite a bit of trouble and a little expense to not string new wire. So my question is: Will replacing 16ga wire with 14ga really gain me that much in sound quality?

2) I probably should already know this, but do TV shows received over cable broadcast in 5.1 surround sound at least some of the time? Or is surround sound limited to DVDs?

Eric DeSilva

01-30-2011, 4:02 PM

You're getting into an area that can cause controversy--many people claim wire is wire and that in double blind tests people can't tell the difference between uber-high end wire and coat hangers. It is even worse because there are undoubtedly companies out there that make a lot of money selling snake oil claiming vast improvements.

I think I can hear a difference in my system, so I spent some money on wire. Maybe it's placebo effect. Maybe it's real. Either way, I tend to think it was worth it for my system and my ears.

So, what I'd counsel is getting/borrowing some "better" wire. Listen to your system, then run the better wires across your living room and see if you can hear a difference. If you can, and it's worth it, replace the wires in the wall. If not, you won't have lingering doubts.

Even pre-DTV, a lot of TV shows were surround sound over the air. With HD, and even SD, you should find a lot of programming that will use the 5.1 modes. I'm assuming you will hook up your CATV box to your receiver using HDMI or digital optical/coax. Just make sure your set top box is set to output surround sound over the digital output, rather than PCM, and your receiver should do the rest if surround is available.

Tim Morton

01-30-2011, 5:14 PM

Larry,

With what you are trying to do, the 16ga will be fine....i say that assuming that it is not all oxidized since it is 12 years later.

And yes most tv channels will be broadcasting in 5.1 these days...and if not, your receiver (avr) will handle the switching without you even getting involved.

Someone said earlier that you might be fine eliminating the center channel and doing a phantom CC....that is fine advice for someone without a center channel, but since you already have one...then it is nothing that pertains to you.

Tim Morton

01-30-2011, 5:16 PM

Anticipating the next question might be concerning buying HDMI and/or other cabling...when it comes to buying cables....monoprice.com is your friend here.

Bryan Morgan

01-30-2011, 11:44 PM

Anticipating the next question might be concerning buying HDMI and/or other cabling...when it comes to buying cables....monoprice.com is your friend here.

I second this. Monoprice is a great place for cabling and also any adapters or mounting things you need. I don't know how their price is so low for such high quality cables.

Larry Browning

01-31-2011, 10:02 AM

I think I am pretty well set with HDMI cables. However I am planning on getting a wall plate like this (http://www.amazon.com/GLS-Audio-Binding-Banana-Speakers/dp/B000RK43HO/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=II0ABPGKKR6MG&colid=2TC0X2ILMOSST) to connect the surround speakers. It uses banana plugs, but I THINK that those are not required and that the connection can be made by just wrapping the wire around a post and tightening the connector kinda like the connector on the receiver. Is that correct? Would the banana plugs be a good idea anyway? I am assuming that they could be attached to both ends of the speaker wire so that they could be attached to the receiver in the same manner as the wall. That would require 4 banana plugs per speaker connection.

Eric DeSilva

01-31-2011, 10:03 AM

Someone said earlier that you might be fine eliminating the center channel and doing a phantom CC....that is fine advice for someone without a center channel, but since you already have one...then it is nothing that pertains to you.

I said it, and I'll stand by it. The Cerwin Vegas he has will outperform anything made by Technics. I think he'd be far better off relegating the free Technics center channel to the trash and going phantom center. Larry, give it a listen both ways and see what you think. If you leave the Technics in, it means 90% of the sound will be coming from the worst performing speaker you have in the front. Correct me if I'm wrong Tim, but didn't you suggest the center channel would be your first upgrade?

Larry Browning

01-31-2011, 10:18 AM

Larry Browning

01-31-2011, 10:34 AM

Tim Morton

01-31-2011, 8:53 PM

I looks to me like there are 2 styles of in-ceiling speakers, round and rectangle, The difference seems to be that the round ones have the tweeter in the center of the woofer, while the rectangle ones have it offset from the woofer. Is one style considered better than the other?

I have always thought of "in-ceiling" to be round, and the tweeter mounted in the center. And i have thought of "in-wall" to be rectangular.

As for the tweeter being in the center vs being off set in the rectangle, sound quality is generally always going to be better with the tweeter in the center of the woofer. Just make sure that you are getting a true "tweeter" and not some "whizzer cone" Look for a 3/4" or 1" tweeter...and 5 1/4 or larger woofer.

There is no reason that i can think of to choose one over the other....maybe if you describe your seating arrangement and room configuration??

Tim Morton

01-31-2011, 9:00 PM

I probably will try it both ways as you suggest. I am thinking that I may not be able to tell any dramatic difference. I have already said that I am no audiophile. But what I have not said is that my main goal here is to get that surround sound effect where I should be able to hear a jet plane flying from front to back or a bullet whizzing by. I won't be playing any source at a high volume, I just want it to sound "nice", not "superb".

Properly placed speakers set to the correct levels should give you all the "fun" you want.

As for the phantom cc effect, it is a good solution, and i glossed over it earlier so as to keep the topic on point and not to confuse the issue. Buying Home theater components can get very overwhelming as you can tell...and that just seemed to be something worth putting off until later since it did not affect your purchase of other components. But yes eric is correct in saying that your front L+R speakers are probably vastly superior to the CC you currently have.

Larry Browning

01-31-2011, 10:48 PM

Bryan Morgan

02-01-2011, 12:54 AM

I said it, and I'll stand by it. The Cerwin Vegas he has will outperform anything made by Technics. I think he'd be far better off relegating the free Technics center channel to the trash and going phantom center. Larry, give it a listen both ways and see what you think. If you leave the Technics in, it means 90% of the sound will be coming from the worst performing speaker you have in the front. Correct me if I'm wrong Tim, but didn't you suggest the center channel would be your first upgrade?

I've never heard any phantom anything that didn't sounds weird to me. Out of phase kinda weirdness.

Bryan Morgan

02-01-2011, 1:01 AM

Tim, I have been truly overwhelmed with all this. But today I have come to a decision. I am going with the Yamaha 10" subwoofer ($97.97+free shipping) and the Micca 8" round ceiling speakers ($34.95X2+free shipping) Total $167.87. I know this is not what you and others have advised, but in the end, I would not feel comfortable with myself for spending more than that on what for me is such a luxury. Plus, I also believe that the extra sound quality I might get by spending hundreds more would probably be wasted on me anyway.

Thanks to everyone who tried to help me. I truly do appreciate it. It may still be a few weeks or even months before I pull the trigger on all this, but I will report back here to let you know how it all turned out.

Again, thanks to everyone.

Have you actually listened to that sub woofer? I went in thinking I was going to buy some expensive 12" and after listening to everything they had I wound up with a 10" Athena (some brand related to Infinity). It was the smoothest, deepest sounding sub the store had at the time. It wasn't the cheapest or most expensive but it certainly sounded the best to my ears. The others sounds kind of clunky or farty.

Make sure and break in your stuff too if you want it to sound its best. Speakers right out of the box don't always sound so great. You can use test CDs or just crank up stuff with a wide frequency range. I spent a month leaving the CD player on repeat while I was at work alternating between Metallica, Crystal Method, and some test tracks.

Eric DeSilva

02-01-2011, 11:45 AM

A phantom center channel is about as easy a signal to image as you can get--both L & R get the same signal. You should have no phase issues if your L & R are properly phased. In fact, I'd argue that putting in a "real" center channel is a good way of mucking up your image. If you think about the cancellation effects from combining two sources, think about how much more complex the situation becomes when you have three.

Back in my HT days, I ran some fairly extensive listening tests with my front speakers. I ran my L & R speakers, which were top of the line for the manufacturer, with both of the two center channels they then had in their line up and with a virtual center channel from my HT processor. All speakers used at any given point were vertically bi-amped with individual stereo amps as identical (same year, same model) as you can realistically get. After all that, I sold the center channels and stuck with the phantom.

That said, you will get strange effects if you have people sitting well off axis. But I'd argue that you're going to get strange effects with people that far off axis anyway.

But, like I said, take my advice with a grain of salt, since I ultimately ditched the whole HT thing and just went back to two channel. I can still get lost in a good movie, and the HT experience doesn't save a bad movie.

Tim Morton

02-01-2011, 3:23 PM

Larry,

I will try one more time to talk you out of that subwoofer..it seems you like amazon and want to keep it under $99 shipped...here is another option. i just woudn't hold much faith in that yamaha playing LF effects.

http://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-10-Inch-Monitor-Subwoofer/dp/B0002KVQBA/ref=sr_1_20?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1296591292&sr=1-20

and if you could just up the ante a tad...

http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-430-Watt-Down-Firing-Subwoofer/dp/B0000Y2WYS/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1296591517&sr=1-2

Van Huskey

02-02-2011, 5:23 AM

First, I will TRY not to be all pesky audiophily as I can see it would be looked at like recommending Felder or Minimax on one of the A/V forums I frequent... sorry.

Is no one advocating a phantom center concerned about the Re 20s and the fact they are recessed AND covered being able to coherently image the center channel, I can't see it not being unfocused and muddy? Plus the CV is a two way with a 8" woofer and a 1" tweeter and though I don't know the crossover point they beam like crazy. I would suggest something out of the current CV line for a center to at least have a shot at a similar timbre to the Re 20s.

I will also add a respectful "don't do it" about the Yamaha sub, the Polk and especially the BIC Tim mentioned are much better speakers. I would add the Velodyne VX-11, Definitive Technology Pro Sub 60 and Energy EW100. None of these are going to shake the foundations of the house or reach reference level LFE at 20hz BUT the bass that is there will be SIGNIFICANTLY better than the Yamaha which is a true one note wonder. For a tool analogy think of the Yamaha as Harbor Freight level.

Warning auiophile/golden ear blasphemy follows!! Regarding wire you are FINE. The only time wire makes an audible difference is with a mid-5 figures speakers made by names most people have never heard of and then only makes a difference when another audiophile is in your home and SEES the cabling and KNOWS you spent $1,000 plus on each set of wires, then and only then will the visiting audiophile wax poetic about the reactive component of capacitance and inductance and beam about the sweetness of the treble. The craziest thing I have ever seen in an actual home was a friend of mine who had a pair of Dynaudio Evidence Masters (over 80K a pair) connected to his amps with Audioquest Everest cabling, the cables were indeed pretty but should be at $9K a pop for a 6 ft pair, each additional FOOT was more than a Grizzly cabinet table saw! He wouldn't take the bet that he couldn't identify them compared to a set of 12 awg zip wire cables 8 out of 10 times. I ask you would any sane person spend 1500 times as much on something they they were not confident they could tell the difference 80% of the time??? Now I will bet you I can identify the Yamaha vs any of the sub $200 subwoofers I listed 99% of the time with music and 90% of the time with a movie as source material.

Oh and I do understand the preference for spending on video and not audio, my wife has appreciated the increase in every new display and projector I have brought into our house since we have been together, but not once has she been excited about the increase in audio quality. While she understands and can identify macro-blocking, compression artifacts etc, imaging, soundstage and the difference between a metal and silk tweeter are completely lost on her.

Bottom line if you are happy that is all that matters, audiophiles by and large just hate to see people buy "Harbor Freight" when "Grizzly" is just a few bucks more. Plus, people tend to replace sources, video displays and receivers rather frequently where a good set of speakers can last much of a lifetime. Finally, nobody mentioned Bose in the thread which kindly prevented me from having a stroke! :)

Larry Browning

02-02-2011, 7:57 AM

Tim,
The reason I picked the Yamaha is that in one of the reviews it was stated that it worked well for movies while the Polk did better for music. I will be at least 80/20 movies/music maybe even more movies. Why do you think the Polk is better? Also I am thinking that a 12" would just be overkill for my room. I really don't have the luxury of actually listening to these speakers, due to not having a decent audio store within 100 miles of me. Do you think it would be worth a trip to Tulsa (2 hour drive) to actually listen to some of this stuff? We do have a Best Buy here but I have always found that their sales staff are mostly teenagers who really don't know what they are talking about, but think they do.

The reason I like Amazon is because I do a lot of business with them, I feel I will get good prompt service from them, I can get free shipping, and their prices are, for the most part, the lowest around.

Larry Browning

02-02-2011, 8:07 AM

Ok, you guys are about to talk me out of the Yamaha sub. I guess I will start that search all over.

I am a bit leery of the 12" subwoofers, seems like overkill to me.

How about this 10" BIC (http://www.amazon.com/BIC-V1020-Down-Firing-Powered-Subwoofer/dp/B0000Y2WY8/ref=sr_1_4?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1296652605&sr=1-4)?

Also, I was looking at the size of these things. the 12" BIC is 21.8 x 21.8 x 19 vs the 10" 13 x 15 x 16.5 I've seen refrigerators smaller than that 12"! I'm looking for something that won't visually dominate the room quite so much.

Also, what is the difference between front and down firing? (besides the obvious)

Tim Morton

02-02-2011, 8:28 AM

Ok, you guys are about to talk me out of the Yamaha sub. I guess I will start that search all over.

i like the polk over the ymaha based on the fact that the polk offers a BASH amp, which has a proven track record, and in general polk does make excellent drivers.

I like the bic 12" over the others because 12" is the minimum sized single driver i think you should use in a HT. You have a large-ish room with vaulted ceilings....maybe take some measurements of the various subs and make some mockups out of cardboard.

I have a dual 12" sealed sub in my HT...it fits nicely in a 12x20 room. I had a 15" LLT in there last year and the wife did not like that one bit.

Someone made the point that you will have these speakers for ever...best to buy once...isn't that what they say in the woodworking world?

And as an analogy...you are still in the ryobi or black and decker aisle with your speaker choices...and maybe you might be able to stretch and say you are in the grizzly contractor saw aisle with that receiver purchase...but probably more in the ridgid contractor saw aisle in HD.

Jim Matthews

02-02-2011, 8:30 AM

Jim from Westport, MA here. I wonder if posting a request for another pair of CV RE Series 20 speakers would produce any responses at the Parts Express tech forum? There's a classified section.

FYI - I have migrated to an all-in-one set from Philips that handles movies. It has much to recommend by way of simplicity and it is (essentially) a large center channel speaker with outboard sub.
It has a coax digital input that should handle input from your disc player or receiver. Your receiver should allow you to route the signal as chosen. The CVs could be reserved for straight music (2 channel).

I've been down the road for 5.1 and it's VERY difficult to get set well without a proper center channel speaker.

http://www.p4c.philips.com/cgi-bin/dcbint/cpindex.pl?slg=EN&scy=GB&ctn=HTS8100/05

Eric DeSilva

02-02-2011, 10:11 AM

Is no one advocating a phantom center concerned about the Re 20s and the fact they are recessed AND covered being able to coherently image the center channel, I can't see it not being unfocused and muddy? Plus the CV is a two way with a 8" woofer and a 1" tweeter and though I don't know the crossover point they beam like crazy. I would suggest something out of the current CV line for a center to at least have a shot at a similar timbre to the Re 20s.

Absent people way off axis, I'll continue to stand by my recommendation that given Larry's existing equipment and budget, he's better off with the CVs in phantom center mode. I'll also reiterate my bottom line on all of these points--he ought to listen himself and decide himself. I've heard things as I've swapped bits out of any number of stereos and HT rigs that have surprised me, some of which I don't quite understand from a physics or acoustics perspective. That said, there is a lot of snake oil out there--don't get me started on Magic Pebbles. Just as an example, I've heard people get super definitive about no one being able to tell the difference between 256 kbps MP3s and WAV files, based on all sorts of mumbo jumbo about psychoacoustic coding and yet even my partially deaf wife can reliably tell the difference in our living room system. Your mileage may differ.

I've never heard the Re20s, but I've heard CVs and no one will ever convince me that any free speaker built by radio shack is going to compete with that. And if you really think that the presence of grille cloth is going to impact the Re20's ability to image a center channel, I'm going to tell you that's way beyond the average person's hearing. Or did you mean something else by "covered"? So they may beam, that's why I'd say give it a whirl. Sit in the places people might tend to sit while watching a movie. If they are too beamy, they you have an off-axis problem. Is it enough to budget a significant amount for a center channel? Only Larry can judge how often someone is going to be that far out of the sweet spot.

Larry Browning

02-02-2011, 10:14 AM

i like the polk over the ymaha based on the fact that the polk offers a BASH amp, which has a proven track record, and in general polk does make excellent drivers.

I like the bic 12" over the others because 12" is the minimum sized single driver i think you should use in a HT. You have a large-ish room with vaulted ceilings....maybe take some measurements of the various subs and make some mockups out of cardboard.

I have a dual 12" sealed sub in my HT...it fits nicely in a 12x20 room. I had a 15" LLT in there last year and the wife did not like that one bit.

Someone made the point that you will have these speakers for ever...best to buy once...isn't that what they say in the woodworking world?

And as an analogy...you are still in the ryobi or black and decker aisle with your speaker choices...and maybe you might be able to stretch and say you are in the grizzly contractor saw aisle with that receiver purchase...but probably more in the ridgid contractor saw aisle in HD.

Actually I think that I may have mislead you as to the size of my room. Even though when measuring wall to wall it is 16X17 the rooms seating area is only 12x12 There are doorways on every wall and a corner fireplace that takes up quit a bit of the room. There are really only 2 possibilities for the placement of the sub, those being on either side of the tv cabinet. Anyplace else would require running wire across the floor. If I got the 12" I think it would only fit on the left side of the tv cabinet which would make it more visible in the room which the wife would hate.

I do appreciate your analogies. I do have friends who do not notice the difference between a Harbor Freight table saw and a Felder. When it comes to HT I probably am closer to those guys.

Tim Morton

02-02-2011, 5:34 PM

Gotcha...but keep in mind the sub does not care about the seating area...it will be pressurinzing the entire room...or in this case with all the doors, the entire downstairs.

So pick a 10" that makes you happy...you should be fine.

Larry Browning

02-02-2011, 6:59 PM

Bryan Morgan

02-02-2011, 9:04 PM

Finally, nobody mentioned Bose in the thread which kindly prevented me from having a stroke! :)

Haha I think everyone can see past their marketing nonsense nowdays. I don't know anyone who actively seeks a Bose product these days. Nobody who knows even the slightest bit about A/V would ever recommend Bose (except maybe to their smug enemies or something!) heh... and I have an uncle who builds them! :)

John M Wilson

02-02-2011, 11:17 PM

Well, I will cautiously weigh in here ... no audiophile by any respect, but I did go through a HT buying process a little while ago. Several posters above are far more knowledgeable than I, but I can offer a few tidbits they may have overlooked.

First, the distinction that any speaker is better for "home theater" vs "music". Most of those who dispense such advice never get around to mentioning that the speaker doesn't know if the TV is on or not ;). A speaker that is best for reproducing musical notes, (even if they are less than 50 Hz) is a better speaker than something that can deliver a monotone "BOOM" whenever it sees something coming through the wire. A similar situation applies for surround speakers: the more "full range" and musical they are, the better they are for faithfully reproducing any sounds, whether it's the background effects of a helicopter in the distance, or the rhythm guitar in "Dark Side of the Moon".

I would encourage you to go to any store that has a listening room, whether it's a big box or a specialty store, and just listen to a variety of speakers at a variety of price points. You don't have to buy from them, let them know you are just there to listen. If they give you a hard sell, shake their dust from your sandals & move on (it's a buyer's economy). After hearing the difference (or not hearing, YMMV) between the price points, you will have a better idea of what the written reviews are talking about. Even if you end up choosing a $99 subwoofer, at least you will be making an informed choice.

In audio equipment, there is a lot of low priced junk, that is created with very high profit margins, looking for folks who want to spend the bare minimum. Granted, there is a lot of overpriced equipment as well, that has marginal benefit for those who do not crave the last musical nuance. The trick is to find the sweet spot, which is different for each set of ears, but is absolutely not at the rock-bottom price point.

Good luck & happy listening!

Tim Morton

02-05-2011, 1:56 AM

Does that 10" BIC look reasonable to you? I think it is pretty much the same speaker just in a smaller size. Also, why would I want to get a front firing vs down firing subwoofer? Or does it not make a difference?

Yes it would be a good option. same bash amp...

Couldn't sleep so i did a search..this one seemed interesting...and you could get it in cherry. Only thing is it would be an ebat purchase and not sure what your comfort level is with that.

but there are some nice pics..

http://forum.blu-ray.com/subwoofers/85212-official-acoustic-audio-subwoofer-owners-thread.html

Ron Carlton

02-05-2011, 8:50 AM

Audiophile chiming in here. To get the most bang for the buck I would look at used components. Audiophiles suffer from the strong desire to upgrade all the time and sell used equipment on Audiogon.com. Speakers...in wall might keep swmbo happy but won't sound like much. I have taken old Klipsch Heresy speakers, replaced the capacitors in the crossovers and re-veneered them so they look great and have been very satisfied. Cost has been about $250 for a pair that sell for over $1,500 new.

Don't buy Bose. Over hyped, overpriced and poorly engineered.

Larry Browning

02-05-2011, 10:27 AM

Actually I have another reason for shopping at amazon. I have over $300 in Amazon gift card money. Some of this is Christmas gifts and the rest is credit card reward money.

Larry Browning

02-05-2011, 10:41 AM

BTW on a slightly differnet subject. Has anyone used Vudu to stream movies? I signed up last night and watched RED in HD. (good movie BTW) I was really impressed with the picture quality. They seem to have all the latest movies for rent in 3 quality levels SD, HD and something they call HDX which is supposed to be 1080p and Dolby digital 5.1 sound ($3.99,$4.99 & $5.99). I watched a demo video in HDX quality and it looked to me to be just as good as a blu-ray disk. The HD quality was very good as well. Anyway I was just wondering what others thought of vudu.

Larry Browning

02-13-2011, 10:15 AM

Hello, again. I am still working on my home theater setup. I am still struggling with selecting speakers. I have had another thought. Last time you heard from me I had decided to get the 10" BIC America subwoofer $149. I had been considering the Polk 10" sub for $99. So I got to thinking that if I went with the Polk I might be able to swing a new center speaker too. The conventional wisdom seems to be that the 2 most important speakers in a HT setup are the center speaker and subwoofer. I know that the center speaker that I have is a real weak spot in my setup. So I started shopping for a decent center speaker. I found a Cerwin-Vega VE-5C (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EI0EB8/ref=s9_simh_gw_p23_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=03Y3DNB8S1AKV2W01XRZ&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938811&pf_rd_i=507846) for $79 and a Polk (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0018QROM2/ref=s9_simh_gw_p23_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=03Y3DNB8S1AKV2W01XRZ&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846)for $71. However it tuns out that the Polk will not fit into my cabinet.
The CV looks to me like a good choice, but I thought I would run it by you guys. So what do you think of this idea?
I guess I should have expected that my budget would have to be extended a bit. It always does!

Tim Morton

02-13-2011, 4:57 PM

i vote "Like it"!!

Larry Browning

02-13-2011, 6:28 PM

I was hoping you would say that! I am thinking that I will probably pull the trigger on all this stuff sometime next week. I will let you know when it is all setup.

Jim Becker

02-15-2011, 9:51 PM

I've been very pleased with the Onkyo HT receiver I bought a couple years ago, although at the time, it was only available with two HDMI inputs. (I'm using a switcher to get around that since I added an AppleTV recently) That particular Onkyo setup was a full HT kit with speakers and a DVD player. I used the speakers, although they are not as elegant as some other systems would have been, and gave away the DVD player since I also bought a BlueRay player.

Yea, a number of TV shows...and many, many commercials :) ...are in surround sound.

hank dekeyser

02-17-2011, 9:05 AM

I'm a little late to the party but I still got 2 cents--

First and foremost - Build your own speakers - PERIOD - www.partsexpress.com (http://www.partsexpress.com) or www.mcmelectronics.com (http://www.mcmelectronics.com) fro higher -end components www.madisound.com (http://www.madisound.com)
I've been building my own speakers forever (30 years or so) best bang for the buck. I'd put my home made stuff up against anything, yes anything.

Use a center channel - of better quality - you can always use the TV speakers for CC but I wouldnt
Check out the powered subwoofer kits on parts express site - bigger is generally better IF yo uhave th epower to control it - 10" or 12" sub will do fine. play around w/ the placement befor you drill hole in the floor for wire - depending on the room "corner loading" can be a huge bonus or a garbled boom.
16 gauge wire is more than enough for your use - I recommend 12g for the sub
I don't have an opinion on the receiver, I have a Marantz SR8000 that does what I need it to.
In-wall or ceiling speakers work very well for surround / rear speaks - If in ceiling try to keep them away from firing straight down at your seating position and not too close to the back wall- I find 12-18" works well.
In-wall speaks you want to be close to ear level when seated. side wall or rear wall is personal preference -
remember that your receiver will have adjustments for all the speaker levels- so if you have speakers that arent in the "ideal" location, you can compensate for it.

You can ask 20 people what to buy and you can get 20 different answers. Do your research, THEN decide which to purchase. If you think a better receiver is what you need , then get it. Same for speakers. PERIOD No one has ever said "gee I wish my stereo didnt sound so good"

Google is your friend and you will find a wealth of knowledge - you just need to seperate the Hype from fact, and the true knowledge from half-wits -good luck w/ that

FYI- I have over 20 years exp doing home installs and car-fi

Larry Browning

02-17-2011, 9:47 AM

Ok, I pulled the trigger yesterday. Here is the list of what I got.
Onkyo HT-RC270 Receiver
Cerwin-Vega RE20 Main Front speakers (I already owned these)
Cerwin-Vega VE-5C Center Channel
Micca M-8C 8 inch In-Ceiling Surround speakers (These arrived yesterday)
Polk PSW10 Powered Subwoofer (Cherry finish)

I will be installing the surround speakers this weekend. I have a question about this.
These are going into a vaulted ceiling which has about 8 inches of blown in insulation on it. I want to minimize insulation lose, so I bought 2 large plastic salad bowls to place over the hole I will be cutting in the ceiling. I am going to cut a small hole in the bowl to run the speaker wire through and then put insulation back over the top of the bowl. Will that cause any problems with the speaker performance?

hank dekeyser

02-17-2011, 1:40 PM

How large is large? The salad bowl is a good idea, I would recommend a method of fastening the bowl either through the speaker mount or from above w/ silicone to the drywall. DOing this will help to eliminate the bowl rattling or bouncing from the sound pressure of the speaker. (no need to drill a hole for the wire) My personal preference is to make a box out of foam and fasten it to the joists w/ fender washers (only takes a couple) or get foam coolers from the local thrift store (or wherever you can find them) and pile insulation over them. If you dont have access to the attic plastic over chicken wire works well also (plastic goes to the insulated side)
Alot of people dont like the CV center channel cuz the tweeters, I like them, I think you'll be very pleased w/ the center and sub you chose. Do a google search for subwoofer placement tips. You may be amazed at the difference it makes where you locate it in the room.

When the install is complete, don't forget to go through the speaker set-up for your receiver- You don't need to buy a fancy shmancy set-up disc either - Any of the Star Wars movies and many others have the LUcas Film (THX) sound set-up that walks you through all the steps. There is a video set-up section also - I don't remember but it may be available to download ?
Have fun and enjoy your new theatre - TV will never be the same

Bryan Morgan

02-17-2011, 2:29 PM

When the install is complete, don't forget to go through the speaker set-up for your receiver- You don't need to buy a fancy shmancy set-up disc either - Any of the Star Wars movies and many others have the LUcas Film (THX) sound set-up that walks you through all the steps. There is a video set-up section also - I don't remember but it may be available to download ?

The Incredibles DVD has a decent THX optimizer.

Larry Browning

02-17-2011, 4:42 PM

The receiver has a setup feature with a microphone that is supposed to do a really good job of speaker setup. I am going use that. I am sure it will do a fine job. I think the center speaker will be waiting on me when I get home tonight. And the Receiver is scheduled to be here tomorrow. Just in time to get it all set up over the weekend. Looks like the sub won't be here until the end of next week. Oh, well, I guess I will be able to really judge how much difference the sub makes.

BTW: I read somewhere that Gladiator is a really good movie to demo the surround sound. My son has it on blu-ray so I think I will borrow that from him and watch it to test out my new sound system.

Larry Browning

02-17-2011, 4:49 PM

I was thinking that I might need a hole in the bowl to allow for better air movement. Is that not going to be an issue?
The styrofoam cooler sounds like an even better idea. It would have insulation of it's own. I could always use the bowls as actual salad bowls, or even better, find a use for them in the shop!

hank dekeyser

02-17-2011, 5:47 PM

A hole in the bowl will allow insulation in. Very bad. A piece of insulation can work its way into the voice coil on the speaker. Most in-wall / ceiling speakers have a mesh covering the basket, I dont trust them. Placing something over the speaker in the ceiling accomplishes 2 things- keeps the insulation out, and provides a (small) enclosure for the speaker. Being that you have 8's I would opt for the styro cooler for a larger enclosure. too small and bottom end will suffer slightly. (not that it matters for the rears, but you dont want to crawl in the attic more than you need to) Gladiator is a good movie. The first 5-10 minutes of "SAving Private Ryan" WOW !!! save that one until the sub shows up. Twister, oldy but good. The 5th Element is a good goto for picture and sound. I'm sure there are many newer flicks also, what with bluray and all. I just don't keep up with it any more. I use a HTPC hooked up via HDMI straight to my Mits projector - 52" x 92" screen- It's all good

remember to re-calibrate once you settle on a location for the sub.

Tim Morton

02-17-2011, 7:58 PM

Congrats Larry....now the easy part is done....:D

I think you did great with your selection.

As for your question about the blown insulation and how to deal with it. If it were me i would not add a bowl or cooler behind the speaker. The last thing you want to do is have something shift up there and cuase a vibration if it happens to rest on the basket of the speaker.

Think about all the sealed and ported speakers in the world with fiberglass insulation inside them...you can google it but i don't see any of those millions of speakers failing.

I other words...if the insulation is not going to physically call onto the cone...causing a vibration....then i would do nothing.

If it is going to fall on the cone, then you might have to build a little mini chicken coup up there and staple some old fabric of any kind to the frame to keep the insulation off the cone.

As for anything getting into the voice coil...not likely.:p

There is a website called "cult of the infinite baffle"...it focuses on subwoofers mounted (sans enclosure)...into attics and crawl spaces...lots of pictures...you should be able to find something along the lines of working around blow insulation.

Good luck!!!

Myk Rian

02-17-2011, 9:02 PM

I got to this thread just today, so what I have to say is hindsight.
Ceiling speakers do not produce good surround sound. Speakers at ear level do.
A sub-woofer can be placed anywhere in the room. They are non-directional, so put it wherever you want to.

Tim Morton

02-17-2011, 9:25 PM

Tim Morton

02-17-2011, 9:47 PM

Larry, having never installed speakers wherei had to deal with blown in insulation i did a little research and i like what i found...read this and tell me what you think..seems you do not need to build anything...just clear out the blown-in and replace with standard fiberglass batting....

I had no trouble doing it, but it is a little messy. I cut a smaller hole to get my hand through to try and push back as much insulation as possible, then I cut the big hole. Some insulation will fall through, just use a sheet or drop cloth. Then I cut some unfaced R30 batt insulation (2 strips, 24" long x 15" wide, crosswise between the 24" trusses) to make a 24" wide by 30" long section that I could push up through the hole (or add afterwards from the attic) and create a pocket for the speaker. You don't want to get blown insulation bits into the speaker. There also seemed to be much debate about the pros & cons of building "cabinets" for the speakers and it seemed like surrounding them with batt insulation seemed like what the manufacturer typically expected.

Larry Browning

02-17-2011, 10:21 PM

Hmmm, interesting. That seems like a pretty easy solution, with no vibration issues, plenty of air flow and no insulation loss. Now to just find me some r30 bat insulation without have to buy a whole roll.

Oh, and read what? I think you forgot to include the link:)

Tim Morton

02-17-2011, 10:32 PM

The link was from a "forum"...so i didn't post it.

The info was the paragraph after i said standard fiberglass batting....it was a quote from the forum.

Larry Browning

02-17-2011, 10:34 PM

Another question. Is it acceptable to splice speaker wire? One of the speaker wires in the attic may not be quite long enough to reach the speaker. It would be a lot easier to just splice the extra length I would need than to replace it with a longer wire. Of course if it is long enough then the question is moot.

Larry Browning

02-17-2011, 10:37 PM

oh, ok. It now makes more since, especially after you said you had no experience with blown in insulation and then you talked about doing just that.

hank dekeyser

02-17-2011, 11:10 PM

After many years and dozens of ceiling speaker installs (and warranty claims) Absolutely do not allow insulation in contact with your new speakers. The insulation used in speaker enclosures is batt type glued in place on the sides of the cabinet - The blown in insulation in your ceiling is bits and pieces laying there. Technically, for your ceiling speaker to be an "infinite baffle" enclosure, it would be basically free air behind the driver - which means open air space to the hot or cold air space in the attic- might as well just cut a hole in the wallor open a window. The idea behind using a cooler, or any other item in the attic and covering it with insulation is simple- your attic remains insulated over the speaker (hole) you just put through the ceiling. Nothing is going to "shift" or move, the insulation (probably 18-24 inches deep) simply wont allow it. Also the vapor barrier remains intact.

As to the "infinite baffle" stuff- yup its out there, there are speakers designed to perform in this condition. Personally after 30 years of home and car-fi installs I have yet to find one that compares to the sound quality of a properly designed enclosure.

Tim Morton

02-18-2011, 5:50 AM

yes you can splice...i would solder and heat shrink.

Myk Rian

02-18-2011, 12:09 PM

its not only hindsight...but it factually incorrect :)
Which part is incorrect?
Speakers in a cathedral ceiling lose channel separation.
Sub woofers are non-directional, and can be placed anywhere.

Tim Morton

02-18-2011, 6:39 PM

Which part is incorrect?
Speakers in a cathedral ceiling lose channel separation.
Sub woofers are non-directional, and can be placed anywhere.

Read the thread again...you will see what the priorities are, and what the limitations are. You will also see that Larry has no desire to argue acoustics.

If you would like to discuss speaker placement i would suggest going over to AVS and have at it :)

Myk Rian

02-18-2011, 8:35 PM

Read the thread again...you will see what the priorities are, and what the limitations are.
I did read the thread.
Larry stated in his OP;

Speaker selection and placement (especially the surround speakers) is my biggest issue at this point. Right now I am leaning toward getting in-ceiling speakers mounted in the vaulted ceiling positioned slightly behind and to the side of the seating area. At this point this seems to be my best option for the surround speakers due to hardwood floors on a slab. I have talked to some co-workers that have a similar setup that say it works well.
and my response was in direct relation to that post. (Speaker placement)
I don't see my messages as an argument, but instead see yours as one.

Sean Nagle

02-18-2011, 9:44 PM

As to the "infinite baffle" stuff- yup its out there, there are speakers designed to perform in this condition. Personally after 30 years of home and car-fi installs I have yet to find one that compares to the sound quality of a properly designed enclosure.

In-ceiling and in-wall speakers are generally designed to be used "free air" (no box required). A properly executed infinite baffle subwoofer system can outperform box speakers in both SPL and sound quality.

Tim Morton

02-19-2011, 9:55 AM

I don't see my messages as an argument, but instead see yours as one.

I can see that now, but i was just trying to find a way to say that i your 2 points were inaccurate to this particular discussion.

1. The subwoofer comment was just plain wrong...placing a subwoofer in various places inside a room will cause audible and measurable differences in the response curve. However in this case it is irrelevant since Larry has decided that there was really only one spot that he is able to locate his subwoofer.

2. Your comment on the channel separation ( i think you meant imaging properties ) is a valid comment, but in terms of discussing the rear channels of a 5.1 speaker set up it is not really accurate either. You were suggesting that he would want to put his rear speakers at ear level. That is the point that i was saying was inaccurate.

We discussed the pro's and cons of wall mounted or speaker stand speakers vs ceiling mounted surround speakers early on, and it was apparent that the various trade offs of each lended the choice of ceiling speakers to be a valid choice.

So i was not trying to be argumentative...i was merely trying to say that yes your points are valid in some cases, but not in this particular installation.

Sorry i did not say that better the first time.

Larry Browning

02-19-2011, 6:56 PM

ok, I have spent all day setting up my new system. Whew, there was a lot to do! I think I have it all set up now except for one think that I am going to need help with.
I have a Wii game console with the component video cable. I am trying to run it thru the receiver as well so that there is just one HDMI cable attached to the TV. I managed to get the 3 video cables plugged into the receiver, but I just can't figure out where to plug in the 2 audio cables. the video shows up on the screen but no sound.

Van Huskey

02-19-2011, 7:40 PM

I love A/V topics in non-A/V forums! :) This would have been a vastly different thread in an audiophile forum, much like woodworking questions are strange to watch in a audio forum.

RE subwoofers being non-directional it is true and false. Below a certain frequency a person can not locate a sub by sound BUT this runs into some issues in practical terms.

1. different people can locate at diferent frequencies, most people around 100 hertz and below is fine some lower some higher.

2. your bass management may FORCE some localization. With the trend toward smaller and smaller sat speakers with higher spousal acceptance factors one deals with fewer and fewer speakers that are articulate in the below 120Hz range making blending them with the sub harder and harder without asking the cub to handle 1/3 or a 1/2 octave above where you can localize them

3. without getting technical there are going to be pressure troughs and peaks all throughout an average room so placement of the sub can be critical.

My problem is I have no qualms around building a room around HT, the last house we built I spent god knows how long just finalizing the basic size and shape of the room making node chart after node chart. In the "early" days of HT and subwoofers they were viewed as more plug and play today it is much more of a science mixed with a healthy dose of black art.

Larry, if no one with that receiver addresses the audio I will look it up and try to help. You probably have to assign the audio input to the video if they are not in close physical proximity. I know Denon off hand but not Onkyo.

Tim Morton

02-20-2011, 7:48 AM

Larry, you should have a red and white input labled "game" , its the 3rd one in.... and thats where your audio connections will be made. Above that you would have an s-video input and a composite video input. But it sounds like you have chosen to use the component video option....which is great, it just might require you to tell your receiver this. Look up "assign input" in your manual.

Larry Browning

02-20-2011, 9:58 AM

Tim,
That was it I had the game audio plugged into the cbl/sat(4th one over) My thinking was that since I had the component video in plugged into cbl/sat that I would also need to plug the audio cables into the cbl/sat audio in. Over thinking got me again!

I am slowly learning my way around this thing. Lots of "Oh wow! look what it did!" moments. I know I will have more questions about the different listening modes(which is pretty much a mystery to me now) and the like. I think we are going to watch Unstoppable tonight so hopefully the sound on that will be good. I want to mess with listening modes during that movie.

I have a Harmony One remote that I re-programmed to include the Receiver and all that went well. I still have a bit of tweaking to do with that, but I am going to wait until I figure out which buttons I use the most on the Receiver remote. My goal is to get to where I don't need the receiver remote except for unusual stuff like setup.

I know I promised some pictures of my setup process, but I forgot to take pictures, due to being engrossed in doing the work. Sorry, but I will post some pics of the final setup when the sub get here.

Tim Morton

02-20-2011, 12:00 PM

i use the harmony 880...without that i would be LOST...good luck, and another really good movie and one that has lots of great sound effects is "children of men".

enjoy...sounds like you are well on your way...and i cant wait to see the pics!!

Larry Browning

02-20-2011, 2:53 PM

Ok, here are the pictures.
183422183424183425183426183420183427http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/pencil.png

Tim Morton

02-21-2011, 7:51 PM

very nice larry....where is the subwoofer? And how did you decide to finish the surround install? They look like they belong there...

Larry Browning

02-22-2011, 7:29 AM

The sub didn't get here until yesterday. I installed it last night. It really changed the sound quite a bit! Everything has a much richer sound now. I haven't taken any pictures of that yet, but I will. Maybe tonight. I am planning of setting up a Picasa web album. I will let you know when I get that setup.
Oh yeah, I forgot to tell what I did with the surround install. I found small packs of 2" bat fiberglass insulation at HD. I overlapped 2 pieces of that over the hole before installing the speakers. After the speakers were installed I went back into the attic and covered the bats with the blown in stuff. The only mishap was that I lost one of my favorite screwdrivers in the attic. I guess it fell out of my tool belt and into the abyss of fluffy insulation, never to be seen again.

Larry Browning

02-22-2011, 9:02 PM

I created a Picasa web album with some better pictures here (https://picasaweb.google.com/LarryJB20/MyHomeTheater?feat=directlink)

bill schmoott

02-26-2011, 3:26 AM

Well Mr. Browning as you can see there are more differing opinions on AV gear than there are the pros and cons of Griz vs. PM. It seems AV people are quicker to stab and jab than the debate between ROS and scraping/planing. Some on this thread have cheered yes, yes, while others have jeered, no, no. The important thing is what? That you enjoy the new toys. What I would suggest, now that you have the system set up is to enjoy it. Watch some movies, listen to the oldies like I do. When you are not woodworking, try getting those speakers out of the entertainment center and moving them further apart. Build some stands for them, slap in your favorite cd and see what kind of sound quality you can achieve. If money permits, maybe get some ear level rears, or a second sub. Most important Rock on Mr. Browning , Rock on!! Oh, and I +1 on the Saving Private Ryan. 184261

Tim Morton

02-27-2011, 11:31 AM

bill schmoott

02-27-2011, 4:26 PM

bill is that a "funky wave" sub?
Paradigm Sub15........flanked by Studio 110 v.5, I have the studio 20 not shown as surrounds. Anthem MCA 30, OPPO, and PS3.......It has been a very enjoyable setup so far. Oh, the dresser I made about 10years ago and the stand to the right about the same. My neighbor swears the base cracked his foundation....lol

Larry Browning

02-28-2011, 12:32 PM

When you are not woodworking, try getting those speakers out of the entertainment center and moving them further apart. Build some stands for them, slap in your favorite cd and see what kind of sound quality you can achieve. If money permits, maybe get some ear level rears, or a second sub.

Well, this is not going to happen. Mrs. B. only agreed to all of this if I would hide those "ugly" speakers. You cannot imagine what I went through to get permission to install the ceiling speakers, not to mention the sub that is visible. About the only thing I might be able to get away with is to build a raised platform for TV to sit on so that the center speaker be placed under it to be a true "center" speaker, instead of an "off center" speaker. But that is going to be down the road it bit.

Oh, one mere thing. Saving Private Ryan was on TV yesterday and I watched the opening battle scene. It was pretty good. But I also noticed that the surround effect is not as good on broadcast TV as it is on a DVD or Blu-ray even though it shows that it is being broadcast in 5.1. Is that normal?

bill schmoott

02-28-2011, 2:09 PM

Well, this is not going to happen. Mrs. B. only agreed to all of this if I would hide those "ugly" speakers. You cannot imagine what I went through to get permission to install the ceiling speakers, not to mention the sub that is visible. About the only thing I might be able to get away with is to build a raised platform for TV to sit on so that the center speaker be placed under it to be a true "center" speaker, instead of an "off center" speaker. But that is going to be down the road it bit.

Oh, one mere thing. Saving Private Ryan was on TV yesterday and I watched the opening battle scene. It was pretty good. But I also noticed that the surround effect is not as good on broadcast TV as it is on a DVD or Blu-ray even though it shows that it is being broadcast in 5.1. Is that normal?

Well then, just enjoy it the way you have it. Entertainment center looks great.
I have watched several movies "broadcast" and on Blue-Ray. I agree, the TV Broadcast is not as good as a DVD or blue-ray, regardless of the way it is claimed to be Broadcast. Probably has something to do with the loss of signal.
Good luck

Tim Morton

02-28-2011, 5:26 PM

Oh, one mere thing. Saving Private Ryan was on TV yesterday and I watched the opening battle scene. It was pretty good. But I also noticed that the surround effect is not as good on broadcast TV as it is on a DVD or Blu-ray even though it shows that it is being broadcast in 5.1. Is that normal?

i have found that comcast and now direct TV have pretty lousy sound...dish network used to have pretty awesome sound, almost as good as dvd and BD. IMO HD-DVD kills all for SQ.

Tim Morton

03-12-2011, 9:38 AM

Hi Larry...if you are still seeign this thread...i wanted to show you something i am working on. I am upgrading my subwoofer. I currently was running a pair of 12" subs and am upgrading to a Mach 5 Audio IXL 18" driver...check out the comparison between the 12" drive i currently own, and the new cutout for the 18". Its scary big!!

Sean Nagle

03-12-2011, 9:57 AM

Tim Morton

03-12-2011, 10:35 AM

Tim, that is a seriously big driver. What amp will you be driving it with? It seems to require a good amount of power, especially if the VCs are wired in series. What size is the box? Sealed?

Very fun. I'll be interested in your evaluation.

What 12's are you currently running?

currently using some ACI (audio concepts) SV12's i picked up when they went out of business last year. I will wire the 18" in series and am using and elemental design LT/1300 so it will get over 1000 watts.

The box will be 6.75 cu ft ported and tuned to 19hz.

The driver is still undergoing final testing so is not yet available to be purchased...it will be an upgrade to the IXL 18.2. This should give me plenty of time to finish the box.

Sean Nagle

03-12-2011, 11:24 AM

Tim Morton

03-12-2011, 11:30 AM

That's going to be some sub. A pair of those would would do some serious structural damage.

Thanks for bringing the Elemental Designs plate amp to my attention. I've bought sub drivers for my car from them before. I didn't realize they also sold HT plate amps, and 1300W amps at that! That will definitely be plenty for that driver.

So the Mach 5 Audio IXL 18" driver isn't generally available yet?

its a monster plate amp..highly recommended. I have tried pro amps and always seem to come back to this one as my favorite amp.

The IXL 18.2 is available for purchase right now...but mark is preparing a nice upgrade to it as we speak. same basket...but with more excursion...better power handling, and lower distortion. Should be available soon from what he says.