Turner's Block?

[David DeCristoforo]

John's cherry hollow form thread sideswipes a common malady that all "creative types" experience from time to time. Rather than piggyback onto John's thread, I thought is should have a discussion of it's own.

It seems inevitable that we experience times when the "creative juices" simply stop flowing. We feel like we have exhausted the potential of whatever groove we have been in and are seeking a new direction. We want to "do something different". But the brain simply refuses to offer up anything even remotely resembling inspiration. We tend to try and force new ideas into existence, but seem to produce increasingly unsatisfying results. Writers have a name for this phenomenon. They call it "writer's block". It's like those Chinese finger trap puzzles. The harder you pull, the tighter the thing grips. It's only when you relax and let go that you are able to free your fingers. Finally you jut walk away in disgust and forget about the whole thing. You might stay away for a day or a week or a month or even longer. But sooner or later, you get relaxed and free of the block and one day you go back and pick up the tools and suddenly you are accomplishing exactly what you were trying so hard to do before. But this time it's flowing freely and naturally instead of being forced or contrived.

I don't think there is a creative person in the world, currently living or from another generation, who has not experienced this at one time or another. It seems to be an inherent part of the creative process.

[Mark Burge]

You know what, I really seem to get creative when I can't get to my lathe and do anything about it! See, it's happening right now. I'm at work.

[Frank Van Atta]

I've had first hand experience with both, and (in my case, at least) "turner's block" is far easier to overcome. I just go to the computer and Google "turned xxxx" (xxxx being vase, bowl, whatever) and start looking through the pictures. Ideas usually start flowing like sap after about two pages of images. "Writer's block," on the other hand, is much harder to overcome. I can sit and look at words for hours - mine, yours, Shakespeare's, whoever's - and things just get worse. Like you said, you just have to get away from it until it goes away - hours, days, weeks, or months:eek: later.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I've wondered about this, and thought it had something to do with my overall feeling of well-being, for me it seems to be like I just don't feel like going into the shop and do any turning at all, just feeling down, or maybe more like having the winter blahs, I never worried about it, it'll go away.
(helps if you don't have to make a living I suppose)

[Jim Burr]

I'm with you Leo. Some days, I want nothing to do with "the shop". I can't even manage the gumption to turn a pen. Other days, 8-10 hours isn't enough. January is the Blah month in the Valley...foggy, dull, dismal weather that does nothing to lift my spirits. Wood selection is a consideration too. Some wood just makes me want to dive into it. Other times, it's like looking at a stack of pine 2x4's all day...nothing looks fun. Spliting the time cooking, with my guitar or even reading helps keep the turning times a bit more fresh.

[Jon McElwain]

I've started to keep a little notepad/sketch book with me. Usually it lives in the nightstand or at my desk, but whenever I have a creative idea or design, I'll jot down a little sketch. This has helped give me ideas when my creativity is broken. Oh, and +1 on not wanting to go out to the shop on occasion. Weirdest thing too. I'll be all amped up for a day or so knowing that I'll have a little time out there coming up, but then when the times comes, I am so tired, down or whatever, that I would rather sit in the recliner and stare at the wall.

[David E Keller]

This is an interesting thread. I thought I was the only person who could spend all week looking forward to a day in the shop only to spend the day moping around and shuffling blanks without really accomplishing anything. I've got rough-outs that I was so excited to turn and dry that I now can't bring myself to finish. I've got blanks that I coveted only to receive them and watch them sit on a shelf for months or longer. Good to know I'm not the only one. Perhaps Michael James will wade in with a psychoanalytical explanation for all of this...

[John Keeton]

I have to say I am glad to see this thread!!! Kind of a relief, in a way. I hate that the rest of you have these times - not fun!!!

Back in the days of flatwork, I really didn't have this problem much. But, it was furniture, and I could always depend on Ms. Keeton to come up with an idea of what she needed or wanted. She is not much into the artsy stuff and not a very good source for new turning ideas.

David K., I enjoyed your comments on rough outs! That is the very reason I don't like to turn green wood, and then later re-turn it. If I did bowls, I guess it would be different. But, with the HFs and other art pieces, I am certain the zeal for a piece would be gone by the time it was dry. The only two pieces I have dried with the DNA were nearly forgotten about.

I did come out of my "funk" a little, and finished up a piece today - kind of revived me a bit!!

[Scott Hackler]

What is somewhat worse, is having a few artistic ideas and not wanting to start the project because of the time involved. I have a few things floating around in my mind and a few unfinished things that I really want to get going ....... but dont want to get that involved at the moment.

I went out to the shop night before last to get some much needed turning (from a 2-3 week break) and couldn't decide on what to do. I finially managed to think up a design and turned 2 pieces for it. It was to have legs protruding through it (as in my mental design) and after all the time spent turning 1 leg I realized that the angle of the larger part.... would make the leg stick out at a severe angle. Frustration set in, lights shut off... back to house. :(

One of my New Years resolutions was to start drawing out my ideas. Not only to design OFF the lathe , but to record the ideas before they get lost. John's method of drawing it all out kinda inspired me to start doing this. Designing on the lathe is a roll of the dice.

[GLENN THOMAS]

It's good to know that I'm in good company when it comes to some of the issues that were mentioned by so many others. It seems that if I try to turn something when I'm not in the mood everything I touch just goes down the drain. When things do not work out for me I think it's a combination of factors. Maybe it was a busy night at work, or I fell asleep without my CPAP and im just tired, or sometimes a dreary day can ruin my time in the shop. Sometimes I just can't think of anything to turn. If I find myself in my shop and nothing is working out the best thing to do is not to push it and wait for another day. If that's the case I'll just use the time and clean my shop or something like that. Ive been thinking about designing more on paper but never got around to trying it, after all I'd rather be turning than drawing. After reading this thread it think that will really help me when I run into that creative block. In any case, I was really glad to see that I'm not alone.

GT

[Bob Borzelleri]

Perhaps there is a turning corollary to the practice of "noodling" with a musical instrument. There are times when I don't want to play anything I know or put in the effort to learn something new so I just play and see what comes out. Now that I think about it, I have at least a few turning "projects" that came out of nowhere; they just took shape while I was futzing around.

I've always thought that the term "creative" should only be applied when one is finished with what one is doing; anything up to that point is one of many successive approximations toward a goal. :cool:

[Ken Hill]

This is why I have a ton of "hobbies". If one goes stale, another one is on full tilt. I tell my wife it keeps me sane......she says it keeps Mastercard in business LOL!

[Bill Hensley]

I'm with Ken, a hobby is good for your mental health but more hobbies are better. Mine seem to be seasonal, right now I look forward to the water warming up so I can go fishing!

[Rich Aldrich]

I have a different kind of turners block right now. It is called a cabinet that I am building for one of my neighbors. I won't allow myself to turn anything until it is done so I won't get too distracted. In a way, the time off has given me a chance just to think, especially as I read the forums. It kind of serves as a way to recharge - the only problem is that I really dont think I needed to recharge at this time.

[Roger Chandler]

Designing on the lathe is a roll of the dice.

I'll say a hearty amen to that statement. Unless one has it firmly fixed in their mind what they want to accomplish before ever mounting a blank, then you don't know what you will end up with precisely, just some general concept.

I think specifics need to be firmly decided on, i.e. the sequence of the steps you need to take for the work you are doing, and pretty much the end design [with a little wiggle room] and even how you intend to finish the turning.

I have come to believe that generally speaking a better result is achieved most of the time with planning beforehand. There are times when figure in the wood, or something else can change things a bit, but I think it is true most of the time.

[Michael James]

It really is the rare exception that doesn't get stuck in a rut. Each will eventually find a way to shake it off and "go for the next one". I find that on activities that require a lot of muscle memory, ie guitar, shooting pool, etc. when I am away from them for a while I return with a different perspective, or mind frame, and actually have to make a conscious effort to go back in the "same ol".... or not. Sensory stimulus can trigger new ideas, as can artbitary "exercises". The right way is the way that works for you.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I am like Ken. I have two or three hobbies and when one gets to where I can't come up with idea's or don't feel like doing one of them I move on to another.

[Harry Robinette]

I've had this happen before and it's hard not to get caught up in it and cause it to go on and on.I let it run for a week at the most then something has to change.I'll
go to the library with a sketch pad I look at books of pottery,clay,wood,baskets ect.and just sketch things, some don't make any sense when I look back but usually
something jump out and I'll start thinking about how to do it.Think of how to chuck it,what wood to use,what tools are needed ect. This has always bought me out maybe it will help someone here.
Harry

[Don Alexander]

inspiration can be a fickle thing can't it? i tend to agree with JK on rough turning and finishing it later for me that doesn't seem to work very well
for much the same reason as John gave

[neil mackay]

Hmm, a very good point to bring up. As I make and design my own tools and lathes as well, and hold down a full time job. I find there's never enough hours in a day to get what I want done.

[Jeff Nicol]

Lots of deep thought and intrepid dreaming sometimes creates a pre-concieved notion or idea of what is to be. Being creative is in the mind and heart of the creator most times when it comes to them and not after planning and sketching until you have convinced yourself "Now I am ready to create". This is when you have lost the deeper, lets say spiritual part of being creative or the spontaneous recognition that triggers the desire to make that certain something. I rarely draw a sketch of anything and if I do it is just to help me remember a dimension that something has to fit into or an area it will occupy when completed. So my scribbles are for flat work I would say 98% of the time and the 2% for turning are generally from someone else who wants me to turn something for them. So with that being said for me the best way to beat the "BLOCK" is to just live and keep around the world that you love and inspiration will be everywhere, and when it hits you that is when to make a note or go out to the shop and get turning! I may be one of the many who use the shop as a mental health care provider! I like many have aches and pains that distract us from our hopeful joy of the day, so I turn the tables on them and stay busy with whatever is at hand in the shop, and I forget the troubles. While I am doing all of this I will be moving something to get to another thing or I am looking for a lost tool and.......there it is the inspiration, the chunk of wood or the shape of something or whatever that trips the trigger and off the the lathe I go! These are my best creative times and provide a perfect diversion from the hectic hours that proceeded it and will follow it until the next moment of creative clarity!

But when I am in a funk, and don't have a direction that is the time to do rough turnings with no pre-determined results in your head, just mount some wood on the lathe and make the curls fly! It is like a drug addict who just needs that high to make it through the day (Bad association, but real) and turning can give you that fast release of pent up energy and relax the soul. By watching the block of wood take shape before your eyes without knowing what it was meant to be will produce some of your greatest works, and to me that is what being creative is all about. It is never forced or over planned or pre-determined it just is! So when the blahs are at your door like my signature says: "TURN,TURN,TURN!!!!!"

Don't let wood become your master, you rule it,

Jeff

[Steve Schlumpf]

Coming from a technical background - with no training in the arts since grade school - I really struggled with turner's block a lot when first starting out. I still do but to a much lesser degree.

Looking back, I think it was not the lack of desire to turn something - Anything - but the confusion created when all the rules of flatwork were removed and creativity was totally up to me! I guess it was also the struggle that comes with using an area of the brain that didn't see much use up till then!

Inspiration comes in many forms and I admire those who can see the possibilities in everyday life. I believe the true creative types have simply learned to relax and observe their surroundings for ideas. It's all there - we just have to learn how to use it.

[Michael James]

Perhaps Michael James will wade in with a psychoanalytical explanation for all of this...

I consider my self a pragmatist rather than an analyst but I'll throw out a thought that may be helpful to someone. Your conscious awareness is only a part of your working brain. You do not cocsciously breathe, or pump blood, etc and your memory resides somewhere. You cannot recall your favorite 7yr old memory while computing your taxes - unless you stop computing taxes to focus on that search.
There are 4 levels of learning that apply to any and all behviour and may be of special interest to those brand new to woodworking, esp woodturning as it actually encompasses several aspects of woodwork; selection, wood properties through creation and finishing. Therefore, it can be considered "complex" I'll use driving and turning as examples.
Unconscious incompetence: ignorance is bliss. As a child you ride with whoever is driving, and they are talking to you, maybe gazing at scenery, radio etc, it seems natural enough. You do not know what you dont know. Or you look at turned something and tell yourself you like that, and you buy a lathe or find a friend with one.
Conscious incompetence: You get behind the wheel of the car and although you've always known (old) cars have 3 pedals and you only have 2 feet, but it never was a problem..until you tried it. Because you have no experience, you must use all youc conscious awareness to focus on all the activities involved while you learn them. Hop and jackrabbit and you study the driving laws and practice, practice, practice. Or you stick a sharp piece of metal into a piece of spinning wood, somehow attached to a lathe.... it doesn't look like Ellsworth's work at all. At this point some people quit. Is there motivation to continue? You are beginning to realize that there is lots to learn here.. tool choice, sharpening, speed, wood selection etc. And each has it's own discreet set of learning operations to be considered. The value and enjoyment of supportive forums such as SMC, is to assist (to me), encourage and support us at this ackward stage. Atta boy, you go girl... "we've all been there", etc.
Conscoius competence: In the driving example, you would be able to get a driver's license as an inidcator that you could drive safely and knew what alll the signs meant, etc. In turning you know what you did that worked and what does not work and you consciously apply that learning to make "something". Note, as some of you ol time turners know: "a hammerer does not a carpenter make" (everything would look like a nail). To quote Jeff.... use it ( specifically in __x__ way) until it becomes 2nd nature. Second nature means that I no longer have to focus on the mechanics of that proccess which frees up my conscious awareness to focus on other matters related to the task or not. There are people who rely on this technical assembly of approaches, and can learn to do technically nice work. The value of studying the "masters" or classic form is to get it under your hands, as it were. This is where the experienced turner can offer suggested methods or techniques that work for them. to help us get "competent" on a particular aspect... why we ask for C & C - reality checking your assessment of your abilities externally - hence all the categories on the forum. Or you are able to move into the realm of imagination (imagination and memory use the same neural pathways) into
Unconscious Competence: This is where you are not focusing on the conscious awareness of how to approach the piece but "just doing", second nature, etc. I would argue that this is where "art occurs", yet it can also refer to those with natural talent. They have no idea what they just did, they just did it, and can replicate that with consistency. You can see this phenomenon in every activity a person can do...It's what seperates us as individuals. Each of us can back up to conscious awareness and "work" at getting that technique or approach. Even Michael Jordan did not make the team in high school, until he went back and worked at the fundamentals consciously! How many etraordinary individuals does history document that were classified "failures" in earlier yrs because they failed to conform to, or meet norms? Ah.. the different drum is not necessarily limiting.
I put this out here as a map for you to see where you might be getting stuck. It clarifies why "walking away", turning it over, shaking it off, etc works and why applying more energy to something that is not working is not going to make it work. Walking the aisles of an arts and crafts store, looking at nature, meditation, prayer, visiting a museum or books with pictures can fill our minds with possibilities that can emerge if we allow them.
If anyone is interested in pursuing this either on a remedial or evolutionary change level, PM me and Im willing to offer what I understand, or point you in a direction that might be helpful. My understanding of how the brain works is no different than any other bodily fuction...just a set of observations on what it is. There is no moral value to argue or belief system to examine except your beliefs about your capabilities. And development of your progress can be described as above. Your inability to progress can be pinpointed as well.
I'm paraphrasing Robert Dilts, Gregory Bateson et al. This stuff is all well documented.

[Bob Borzelleri]

I consider my self a pragmatist rather than an analyst but I'll throw out a thought that may be helpful to someone. Your conscious awareness is only a part of your working brain. You do not cocsciously breathe, or pump blood, etc and your memory resides somewhere. You cannot recall your favorite 7yr old memory while computing your taxes - unless you stop computing taxes to focus on that search.
There are 4 levels of learning that apply to any and all behviour and may be of special interest to those brand new to woodworking, esp woodturning as it actually encompasses several aspects of woodwork; selection, wood properties through creation and finishing. Therefore, it can be considered "complex" I'll use driving and turning as examples.
Unconscious incompetence: ignorance is bliss. As a child you ride with whoever is driving, and they are talking to you, maybe gazing at scenery, radio etc, it seems natural enough. You do not know what you dont know. Or you look at turned something and tell yourself you like that, and you buy a lathe or find a friend with one.
Conscious incompetence: You get behind the wheel of the car and although you've always known (old) cars have 3 pedals and you only have 2 feet, but it never was a problem..until you tried it. Because you have no experience, you must use all youc conscious awareness to focus on all the activities involved while you learn them. Hop and jackrabbit and you study the driving laws and practice, practice, practice. Or you stick a sharp piece of metal into a piece of spinning wood, somehow attached to a lathe.... it doesn't look like Ellsworth's work at all. At this point some people quit. Is there motivation to continue? You are beginning to realize that there is lots to learn here.. tool choice, sharpening, speed, wood selection etc. And each has it's own discreet set of learning operations to be considered. The value and enjoyment of supportive forums such as SMC, is to assist (to me), encourage and support us at this ackward stage. Atta boy, you go girl... "we've all been there", etc.
Conscoius competence: In the driving example, you would be able to get a driver's license as an inidcator that you could drive safely and knew what alll the signs meant, etc. In turning you know what you did that worked and what does not work and you consciously apply that learning to make "something". Note, as some of you ol time turners know: "a hammerer does not a carpenter make" (everything would look like a nail). To quote Jeff.... use it ( specifically in __x__ way) until it becomes 2nd nature. Second nature means that I no longer have to focus on the mechanics of that proccess which frees up my conscious awareness to focus on other matters related to the task or not. There are people who rely on this technical assembly of approaches, and can learn to do technically nice work. The value of studying the "masters" or classic form is to get it under your hands, as it were. This is where the experienced turner can offer suggested methods or techniques that work for them. to help us get "competent" on a particular aspect... why we ask for C & C - reality checking your assessment of your abilities externally - hence all the categories on the forum. Or you are able to move into the realm of imagination (imagination and memory use the same neural pathways) into
Unconscious Competence: This is where you are not focusing on the conscious awareness of how to approach the piece but "just doing", second nature, etc. I would argue that this is where "art occurs", yet it can also refer to those with natural talent. They have no idea what they just did, they just did it, and can replicate that with consistency. You can see this phenomenon in every activity a person can do...It's what seperates us as individuals. Each of us can back up to conscious awareness and "work" at getting that technique or approach. Even Michael Jordan did not make the team in high school, until he went back and worked at the fundamentals consciously! How many etraordinary individuals does history document that were classified "failures" in earlier yrs because they failed to conform to, or meet norms? Ah.. the different drum is not necessarily limiting.
I put this out here as a map for you to see where you might be getting stuck. It clarifies why "walking away", turning it over, shaking it off, etc works and why applying more energy to something that is not working is not going to make it work. Walking the aisles of an arts and crafts store, looking at nature, meditation, prayer, visiting a museum or books with pictures can fill our minds with possibilities that can emerge if we allow them.
If anyone is interested in pursuing this either on a remedial or evolutionary change level, PM me and Im willing to offer what I understand, or point you in a direction that might be helpful. My understanding of how the brain works is no different than any other bodily fuction...just a set of observations on what it is. There is no moral value to argue or belief system to examine except your beliefs about your capabilities. And development of your progress can be described as above. Your inability to progress can be pinpointed as well.
I'm paraphrasing Robert Dilts, Gregory Bateson et al. This stuff is all well documented.

Yep, it is all well documented. And it also reminded me of a week I spent with some buddies of Gregory Bateson back when I did that sort of stuff. Paul Watzlawick, John Weakland and Richard Fisch were all part of the Bateson team at the Mental Research Institute in Palo Alto and I had the opportunity to learn from them, who were at the time, among the leading practitioners of therapy in the world. Their premise (Brief Therapy) was simple; if you can't help someone in a short timeframe, you probably can't help them at all. It wasn't a popular business plan for therapists who favored long term "relationships". But, for practitioners who knew what they were doing, the approach yielded impressive results.

Thanks for the memory, Michael.

[David E Keller]

Thanks, MJ. Enjoy being 'stuck on a beach'!

[Michael James]

Thanks for the memory, Michael.
Bob, David - You're welcome!
I missed that party. I was totally off on a different adventure, but grateful for their work and those that took it and ran with it!
mj

ps - Sarasota weather: 76 and sunny. Light to no breeze :D:p;)

[Dennis Simmons]

I turned this lidded bowl, my wife wanted a dip bowl. I started turning and then I did not like the results, I thought about where this turning came from. I realize now that a few days before I turned it I was laying under the old oak tree and I was looking at an acorn that still had the cap on it. All I can say is this is Half an Acorn!! I say you can start turning and your mind will take over.180707180708

[Curt Fuller]

I consider my self a pragmatist rather than an analyst but I'll throw out a thought that may be helpful to someone. Your conscious awareness is only a part of your working brain. You do not cocsciously breathe, or pump blood, etc and your memory resides somewhere. You cannot recall your favorite 7yr old memory while computing your taxes - unless you stop computing taxes to focus on that search.
There are 4 levels of learning that apply to any and all behviour and may be of special interest to those brand new to woodworking, esp woodturning as it actually encompasses several aspects of woodwork; selection, wood properties through creation and finishing. Therefore, it can be considered "complex" I'll use driving and turning as examples.
Unconscious incompetence: ignorance is bliss. As a child you ride with whoever is driving, and they are talking to you, maybe gazing at scenery, radio etc, it seems natural enough. You do not know what you dont know. Or you look at turned something and tell yourself you like that, and you buy a lathe or find a friend with one.
Conscious incompetence: You get behind the wheel of the car and although you've always known (old) cars have 3 pedals and you only have 2 feet, but it never was a problem..until you tried it. Because you have no experience, you must use all youc conscious awareness to focus on all the activities involved while you learn them. Hop and jackrabbit and you study the driving laws and practice, practice, practice. Or you stick a sharp piece of metal into a piece of spinning wood, somehow attached to a lathe.... it doesn't look like Ellsworth's work at all. At this point some people quit. Is there motivation to continue? You are beginning to realize that there is lots to learn here.. tool choice, sharpening, speed, wood selection etc. And each has it's own discreet set of learning operations to be considered. The value and enjoyment of supportive forums such as SMC, is to assist (to me), encourage and support us at this ackward stage. Atta boy, you go girl... "we've all been there", etc.
Conscoius competence: In the driving example, you would be able to get a driver's license as an inidcator that you could drive safely and knew what alll the signs meant, etc. In turning you know what you did that worked and what does not work and you consciously apply that learning to make "something". Note, as some of you ol time turners know: "a hammerer does not a carpenter make" (everything would look like a nail). To quote Jeff.... use it ( specifically in __x__ way) until it becomes 2nd nature. Second nature means that I no longer have to focus on the mechanics of that proccess which frees up my conscious awareness to focus on other matters related to the task or not. There are people who rely on this technical assembly of approaches, and can learn to do technically nice work. The value of studying the "masters" or classic form is to get it under your hands, as it were. This is where the experienced turner can offer suggested methods or techniques that work for them. to help us get "competent" on a particular aspect... why we ask for C & C - reality checking your assessment of your abilities externally - hence all the categories on the forum. Or you are able to move into the realm of imagination (imagination and memory use the same neural pathways) into
Unconscious Competence: This is where you are not focusing on the conscious awareness of how to approach the piece but "just doing", second nature, etc. I would argue that this is where "art occurs", yet it can also refer to those with natural talent. They have no idea what they just did, they just did it, and can replicate that with consistency. You can see this phenomenon in every activity a person can do...It's what seperates us as individuals. Each of us can back up to conscious awareness and "work" at getting that technique or approach. Even Michael Jordan did not make the team in high school, until he went back and worked at the fundamentals consciously! How many etraordinary individuals does history document that were classified "failures" in earlier yrs because they failed to conform to, or meet norms? Ah.. the different drum is not necessarily limiting.
I put this out here as a map for you to see where you might be getting stuck. It clarifies why "walking away", turning it over, shaking it off, etc works and why applying more energy to something that is not working is not going to make it work. Walking the aisles of an arts and crafts store, looking at nature, meditation, prayer, visiting a museum or books with pictures can fill our minds with possibilities that can emerge if we allow them.
If anyone is interested in pursuing this either on a remedial or evolutionary change level, PM me and Im willing to offer what I understand, or point you in a direction that might be helpful. My understanding of how the brain works is no different than any other bodily fuction...just a set of observations on what it is. There is no moral value to argue or belief system to examine except your beliefs about your capabilities. And development of your progress can be described as above. Your inability to progress can be pinpointed as well.
I'm paraphrasing Robert Dilts, Gregory Bateson et al. This stuff is all well documented.

Very interesting reading!

[John Beaver]

Back to the original question:

I keep a sketch book and am able to sketch a lot faster then I can produce. Browsing the book, or the internet is a good way to come up with ideas. I also keep a list of projects I want to make, so I can always go to that list.

A good tip for those days when you just can't get started is to throw a scrap wood up and just start turning. One it's good practice, and two, and idea will usually come to you when you're playing.