Equipping a Saw Till

[Ed Looney]

I am interested in what the views are in equipping a saw till. First let me ask how many saws and what types would be needed to reasonably equip an adequate shop till. If a guy is just starting the quest to avoid using volts to create sawdust what would be the first 4 saws he would need and why. I don't want to spend money on a saw that I will seldom use however I do understand there are applications for specialty purpose saws. I know views will vary but I trust the logic will be sound as to why each responder came to his or her conclusion. That logic and experience is what I hope to benefit from.

Thanks in advance for the benefit of your experience.

Ed

[Chuck Nickerson]

My working set is 12, not counting bowsaws and pad saws. But here's how I started.

Basic set for joinery: three backed saws. Short and small dovetail saw. Medium crosscut (12"-14"). Larger rip (14"-16") for tenon work.
These choices are covered well in Chris Schwartz's DVD on sawing fundamentals.

Next: one crosscut hand saw, 24"-26".

If you're going to rip stock by hand (I do), add a rip handsaw r two.

[Andrew Gibson]

If I had to choose 4 saws, I would choose...

A good Dovetail Saw.
A tenon saw, say 12" x-cut
A pair of Panel saws somewhere in the 20" to 22" range. One crosscut, one rip.

LV, LN, Wenzloff, Gramercy, Bad Axe, Adira... The list goes on, and all are good.

After those 4 saws most likely you will want a large back saw or two, and a couple of 26" hand saws.

I think the 4 I listed will do 80% of what you will want to do with a hand saw.

[Russell Sansom]

This is an often-asked question. I never got that much satisfaction from the answers because it's almost an infinite regress. So far, here's the guiding idea I've used.
By task:
ACCORDING TO THE RANGE of PROJECT SIZE
Dovetail rip: Fine, small (narrow & short) + Fine large ( wide & long saw ). On very fine work a large saw presents too much risk to the work. On larger work a dinky rip saw will get to a point where it will barely advance.

Tenons Crosscut: Fine + coarser ( for, say 6/4 boards and larger )

Tenons Rip : Fine, smaller + Fine, longer + medium rip, long (tenons can be quite long, so need a coarser )

cutoff: Fine, long and wide if using cutoff box + small no-set trimmer for dowels, horns on stiles, proud DT pins, etc.

Using the rule of thumb of 4 - 8 teeth in the cut, one needs a coarser saws for some tenons. The tenon on a table apron, for example, can be 3" wide.
Obviously 3 TPI would be way too coarse for finish work, but 40 teeth in the cut doesn't work so well unless the teeth can hold all that sawdust until ejected ( Japanese saws )

I have one favorite fine 12" CC that I use in a cutoff box and don't generally need a 2nd coarser saw. I'd prefer a 14" wide CC because I want more stroke and greater depth so there's more saw blade to register in the cutoff box.

[Jim Koepke]

Ed,

Welcome to the Cave by the Creek.

Trying to explain what saws you "need" is difficult at best without knowing why you "need" them.

It would be easy to say a good crosscut and rip saw and then the same in back saws.

But then, if we didn't know what woods, sizes and how milled they were before you start doing the hand work, there would be no way to intelligently suggest a 5 ppi rip & crosscut saw opposed to 8 ppi rip and maybe 10 for the cross cut.

ppi is points per inch. Some use tpi for teeth per inch. ppi is measured point to point and includes the first and last tooth in the inch. tpi is measured from the center of the gullet to the end of the inch. There should only be a difference of one between the two, i.e. 5 ppi = 4 tpi.

The lower the tooth count, the faster the cut. The higher the tooth count, the smoother the cut. That is the trade off.

Same with the back saws. If you do a lot of dovetails you might want different saws than if you were doing a lot of large mortise and tenon joinery. Then if you do a lot of miters and moldings a couple of other back saws would be the best pick.

Then again, I could be the wrong person to ask. My shop has about 8 back saws and more on the way. Most of them were acquired used and rehabilitated. The same, only more so with the larger saws. It is nothing to go through a 4X4 fence post with my 5 ppi cross cut. Since I have a lot of saws, for finer work I have one cross cut with about 12 ppi.

So, tell us what kind of projects you plan to make, what kinds and sizes of wood you will be using and the kind of joints you want to use to hold it all together and everyone will be able to chime in as to what may work best.

Other than that, you may want to look at a few websites to learn about saws and their usage.

Lee Valley has some great information on the saws they sell and the folks who have bought them seem to be very happy with them. They also have customer service that some seem to thing border on the edge of dealing with heaven's most favored angels.

This would be the place to start on their site:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?cat=1&p=42884

I have no association with LV. I have bought some equipment from them but not saws.

A few other good reads are:

http://www.vintagesaws.com/

Check out their library. This is where I have learned the most about sharpening saws.

feed://handtoolstechniques.blip.tv/rss/flash

This is an SMC member's site and one of the videos is on saw usage. Good stuff.

http://disstonianinstitute.com/index.html

This site is more for the show side of Disston saws, but still interesting.

http://norsewoodsmith.com/content/using-and-troubleshooting-saws

There is a lot of saw information at the Norse Wood Smith, search around. There is also an entry on building your own saws.

Hope some of this helps. Don't be shy, ask and yee shall be treated to many opinions & options.

jtk

[Chris Fournier]

I have to start out by saying that it depends on the type of work that you want to do but I'll advise based on my guess that you will need to do primary break out of lumber and cut standard joinery with these saws. You can do all of these things with Western style saws and/or Japanese saws. One last variation to consider before I "tell you what to do" is the panel saw vs the bow saw.

I am going to recommend western style saws right off the bat because they are ROBUST in use and quite easy to sharpen if you patiently take the time to learn the skill. They also represent great value in my mind. Japanese saws are somewhat FRAGILE in use and quite difficult to sharpen and this applies to the high quality, high $$$ saws that can be sharpened. Many of the less expensive Japanese saws are impulse hardened and cannot be sharpened. I have both styles of saws by the way and my recommendations come from my experiences with the saws that I do and do not recommend.

Your answer:

One crosscut western style panel saw like Grandad used to have - 20" to 24" long. Roughly $100.00 for a good British make.
One rip cut western style panel saw like Grandad would have had if he was a serious woodworker - 20" to 24" long. Same $$$ as above.
One cross cut back saw. I have a Lie Nielsen and it's lovely but there are many others just as sweet. $175.00
One rip cut back saw. Same as above applies to attributes and cost.
One dovetail back saw. Same as above but about $150.00
One coping saw. $20.00

Okay, that's the dirt.

Now you could change things up a bit with a bow saw for ripping and this would be a good choice. One blade change and you can cross cut with this saw too.

Sooner or later you will need to read up about sharpening and have a good selection of BRAND NEW saw sharpening files and a couple saw setting tools. No big expense really.

I have recommended high quality, somewhat expensive saws and I stand behind this suggestion if you can swing the $$$. If not you can certainly buy less expensive saws and get the work done and be very happy as well. Truth be told I have a $60 crosscut back saw that I sharpened and preferred it to the Lie Nielsen equivalent out of the box. I found that the LN didn't have enough set for my taste. Easy "fix".

One last suggestion is to buy a cheap box store Japanese style pull saw or panel style push version. An economy handyman saw for those times when you're cutting reclaimed or dirty material. This is your clunker that you use to protect the good'uns that I recommended above.

Sawing wood by hand is very satisfying, I hope that you enjoy yourself.

[john brenton]

One way to get a conversation started in here is to ask for a minimum number of tools you need for an unspecified task, that's for sure.

You already know that you're eventually going to have a ton of saws...why did you say four!?!

If I was in a spot of only being able to have four, I'd have:

1. 20-something" rip saw, 5-7 tpi
2. 20-something" crosscut, 8-10 tpi
3. Back saw filed rip, 15 tpi
4. Japanese Ryoba saw

I can't really think of anything more you really NEED. All the dedicated "this or that" are nice to have, but like you said, you don't want to buy them until you're sure you want to. My theory is, buy the best tool for the job you hate the most. Not only might it make the job easier, but even if it doesn't at least you'll have the joy working with a quality tool that you enjoy handling.

[george wilson]

When Jon and I made saws for 80 craftsmen(who used saws) in Williamsburg,a kit was 5 saws. Crosscut,rip,tenon,carcass and dovetail. Actually,we made 2 models of dovetail. Of course,that did not include bow saws,coping type saws,etc. That was just for "broad bladed" type saws.

[Jon Toebbe]

I found two articles online to be very useful in answering this question (for me and the work I do, ymmv). The first is Chris Schwarz's blog post (http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/A+Nest+Of+Saws.aspx) describing his nest of western-style saws. You didn't mention if you're considering Japanese saws. If so, Wilbur Pan's blog post (http://giantcypress.net/post/533383638/the-problem-with-buying-a-japanese-saw) about choosing the right size Japanese saw for the work at hand is worth reading.

I lust after western-style joinery saws, but I'm in grad school and already have a case full of disposable-blade Japanese saws... so it's Z-Saws for me for the foreseeable future. They cut well in softwoods and the typical N. American hardwoods (though oak always makes me nervous and extra careful with my form), aren't expensive, and pack down compactly in my small tool chest.

[jamie shard]

+1 on the Chris Schwarz... this one is a good post too: http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/Woodworking+In+America+The+Saws+You+Need.aspx

I made a saw till recently and forced myself not to make extra spaces. I'm going to try to keep it to this for a long while:

24" carpentry rips saw about 5ppi
20"ish carpentry cross cut saw about 10 ppi???
16" rip panel saw about 10ppi
16" cross cut panel saw about 12 ppi
16"ish large tenon saw, rip about 10 ppi???
12" carcass crosscut backsaw maybe 12 ppi
10" dovetail rip backsaw about 15ppi
8" gent saw rip backsaw about 18 ppi
a coping saw
a flush cut saw

I think the panel saws, the gent saw, and the flush cut saw are optional -- maybe the tenon saw is optional, but I wouldn't want to give it up.

[Joe A Faulkner]

I've currently got The Seven Essentials of Woodworking by Anthony Guidice on my night stand. He is a big fan of bow saws, and says "The all-around cabinetmaker's saw in continental Europe is the bow saw. ... They use it for everything ... With two bow saws, you could do all the sawing necessary to make an entire piece of furniture. " He then goes on to say that a "gents" saw is useful for trimming and cutting very small pieces of wood. So to sum it up, "just one more saw dear." :)

[Johnny Kleso]

I have plans to build a Saw Shed hehehe just kidding as a till would not come close to holding alll my saws..

When I first started ww I was buying tools I thought I needed to hang on my tool cabinet doors..
Buy what you use or buy one of each not several like me :)

[Ed Looney]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I really appreciate your thoughts on which saws to get. There was so much information given that this thread will require a second reading perhaps a third. As I go back through and compile the list of recommended reading it will give me the opportunity to read your posts again. With that said I did figure out that 4 saws just isn't going to be enough. I will let you all know the progress as I equip my saw till.

Again I want to thank you all for taking the time to answer my questions, your willingness to share your experience is very much appreciated.

Ed Looney

[john brenton]

Well now that you know you need more than four, I would take George Wilson's advice. The saw kit he described was made for guys who worked wood by hand all day long for various projects. If they needed more saws there would be more saws in the kit (except for bow saws, flush cutting saws, coping saws etc etc as George had indicated in his post.)

I am really thinking about getting the set of three veritas back saws from Lee Valley...if they weren't so funky looking I probably would have sprang for them already...but as far as I can see that is the all around best deal and from what people say they are superb.

[John Sanford]

If a guy is just starting the quest to avoid using volts to create sawdust what would be the first 4 saws he would need and why.
Ed

Flush Cut saw. Very inexpensive, very very useful. Unlike the others, it's not a "joinery saw", or a "rough breakdown saw", but it does something that few other tools can do nearly as well. It has a place in every workshop, whether Normite, Galoot, or hybrid.

I have the Veritas Flush cut saw, and I find myself using it frequently. Just make sure that if you give it to someone else to make a cut, you point out the "this side up" aspect. ;)

After that, it really depends on how tail-less you plan on going. Focusing on joinery will give you the dovetail saws and tenon/carcass saws. Like the Flush Cut saw, a coping saw is mighty useful in many situations.

I am very much a hybrid woodworker, and using power tools for more than just dimensioning lumber, which is why I don't really have any of the large saws.

My "saw till" has the following:

Veritas Dovetail Saw
Japanese Shark Dovetail saw
Japanese Shark Back Saw
crappy coping saw
Sandvik 16" "Utility" saw.

I plan on adding a good coping saw (Kewl Concepts), and the rest of the Veritas saws. I don't see myself ripping lumber by hand, nor crosscutting large pieces, so the above is pretty much going to be it, giving me a good foundation for handworked joinery. Maybe if the go more galoot that will change, but for now, doing the hybrid stuff works for me.

[David Keller NC]

With that said I did figure out that 4 saws just isn't going to be enough. I will let you all know the progress as I equip my saw till.


Ed - Your thought is correct; you will undoubtedly have more than 4 handsaws after a few years if you do a lot of hand-tool work in wood, just as you'll have a heck of a lot more than the 3 planes that are absolutely necessary (jack/fore, jointer and smoother, btw).

BUT - You need not buy all of these saws at once. Not only can that be a real wallet-killer, it's also overwhelming trying to learn to correctly use 4 or more new tools at once. Instead, I would highly recommend that you do your tool buying by job. Start with surfacing boards coming out of a power planer (smooth or jack plane). Then move on to hand-cut dovetails (square, marking gauge, set of chisels, mallet & dovetail saw). These 2 operations done by hand have the largest bang for the buck in improving your work as well as your sanity (by avoiding those idiotic dovetail jigs and power sanders).

The bonus here is that the dovetail saw you get & the marking gauge will easily do a few tenons in softer woods, unless you're making entry doors, where the tenons are far too huge for a dovetail saw. When you wish, add a set of mortise chisels, as they are far faster and more accurate than a drill press and bench chisels.

So at this point you've gotten 90% of what distinguishes hand work from power tool shops. As you get into this, you will get the other 10% by realizing that the actual way a piece is constructed is far different when done by hand than by power tool, and the neat thing here is that realization doesn't require a new set of handtools - it just requires that you think about it and read. An example: Stopped grooves are very, very common in power-tool produced pieces, but one very rarely sees them in furniture from the age of handwork. The simple reason is that it's cake to stop a router on a point, but dang hard to stop a plow plane.

Finally, realize that as you get into this that the workbench that was the cat's meow when you were using powertools will quickly show glaring inadequacies when used for handtool work, and you're going to be looking to build a new one. An example of one of these inadequacies that will become very quickly (and painfully) obvious is that it will be far too high. The working surface of a bench that a hand-tool afficionado uses is rarely more than about 30" high - contrast that with a commercially made bench that's usually in the 35" range. That may not sound like much, but it's the difference between feeling like your arms are going to fall off after surface-planing one board or being able to do many boards before tiring.

[Ed Looney]

I have acquired a few old used saws and am cleaning them up and getting them ready to go. The one below is the first to be brought back into shape. It is a Disston D8 6 ppi that will be sharpened rip. The blade was cleaned and came out well with minimal pitting. The handle was removed stripped, fettled to fit my hand and then soaked in Wood Juice (wood stabilizer) for 10 days. After drying for a couple of weeks I buffed it to a shine and then gave it a couple of coats of Danish Oil finish. The brass was cleaned and polished and then it was put back together. The teeth are badly out of joint and the last sharpening was botched badly. The saw will soon be taking a trip to Badaxe tool works to get the teeth jointed set and sharpened properly. I believe this saw should make a good user. It is also enjoyable to bring the old tools back to usable condition. The old tools deserve more than to be trinkets on the wall of a Cracker Barrel Restaurant.

[Roy Griggs]

Without being long winded on explanations....
#1 Disston D-8 Rip 5 to 5 1/2 ppi 26" to 30"
#2 Disston #12 x-cut 9 to 11 ppi 24" to 26"
#3 Wenzloff small tenon saw x-cut 11 to 13 ppi
#4 Wenzloff large tenon saw or panel saw in about 7 to 9 ppi rip
What can I say I love Mike's saws...