Monster Question

[bob svoboda]

Getting close to taking the plunge. Would like opinions-If you could just get one or the other, would you recommend the articulated arm system, or, the captive system. All responses and ideas will be greatly appreciated.

[John Keeton]

Bob, what type of forms do you anticipate doing? That will probably help greatly in folks providing their opinions. The pieces I do are rarely over 6" deep, and the articulated system does a great job for me. However, there have been several comments that going deeper than 9" might be much easier with the captured system.

There are several creekers that have both - David Keller, Steve Schlumpf, and Bernie Weishapl are some I recall. They may be able to offer some comparison comments.

[George Guadiane]

Space was an issue for me, so the captured system just wouldn't work well for me. I have the articulated thing and LOVE IT!

[Alan Trout]

It depends on how deep you want to go. If you are going to go over 6" deep all the time get the captive system. If you are doing fairly shallow forms go with the articulated.

Alan

[bob svoboda]

Great Point, John. I am sure that I will be mostly inside the 9" depth, but am thinking I would probably like to have the ability to go deeper at some point. Maybe I need to consider getting both? I DO NOT have a tool buying problem. I see a tool, I buy a tool.......no problem.

[Alan Zenreich]

I have very limited space (considering that my wife's lathe is mounted onto the same workbench), so I ordered the articulated rig.
Waiting for it to arrive... any week now.

[Alan Trout]

Bob,

I have both, and I am even building more accessories for both systems that I think will add to their versatility. I like to do a lot of different shapes and having both systems cuts down on limitations when working on an idea. If you could only have one system I would probably take the captive because you can still do a shallow form but is better over 6 or 7 inches deep. I have gone to right at 10 with the articulated rig and it takes a very soft touch and even at that it can be pretty challenging. The captive rig is not as easy to use at the articulated at 7" or less and more of a learning curve IMHO.

Good Luck

Alan

[Jim Burr]

With some interesting turn of events in the last week, I'm going to find myself with a dedicated shop. Jet 1642 VS won't be far behind. I could never get rid of my 1014 and Mini Monster, but I think a Monster captured rig will fit a 1642 nicely. Why have one when you can have two at twice the price!

[Steve Schlumpf]

Bob - I have both systems and find I use the captured for most of the hard work - meaning roughing out and most of the finishing. It is a strong system and can really fight the torque! The articulated system excels at smaller forms and finishing work because it is so easy to control!

My advice is that if you can afford it - then get both systems! You will be amazed at how much more fun hollow forms become once you don't have to fight all that rotational torque!

[Reed Gray]

I agree with Allen. If you want to go deep, then a captures system works great. With the Monster, you can go 6 inches deep easily. You can go 8 or more inches if you want. On those ones, I will rough it out with hand held McNaughton cutters, and do the finish cuts with the Monster. The articulates systems are really finger tip controlable. I do prefer the McNaughton hollowers, or any ones that have the goose necks to the ones on a side bar and the tip articulates. Easier to switch out the bars than to fine tune the articulated tip. The Kobra System (don't know of a link for them, but they are out there). looks interesting as well, and can probably go deeper with more ease. The knuckles in it are much beefier than the Monster ones. The knuckle joints are the limiting factor in how deep you can go, not the cutting bar length. When I use my 3/4 inch McNaughtons, they chatter, but with the 5/8 and smaller, no problems, at least not till I get out to 8 inches or so.

robo hippy

robo hippy

[Richard Madden]

If you can afford both, go for it. I doubt you will regret it.

[Richard Coers]

It's been my experience that I can get a smaller entrance hole with the articulated. You can thread in the cutter easier. You can relocate the rear support on the captured, but it takes a little time. Also, if I want to hand cut an extreme shoulder undercut, the articulated can easily be parked out of the way. With the captured, if you need to get it off the tool rest, you have to pull it out of the rear support.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Richard - I will agree with you that you can work through a smaller hole with an articled and that is something worth considering. Maybe just me, but I have not had a problem moving the captured out of the way - which I have to do all the time so I can vacuum out the shavings. All I do is slide it towards the far end of the arm and slightly in towards the support base and let it hang there. My captured system uses square tubing - that prevents the tool from falling out.

[bob svoboda]

Thank you folks for the thoughtful insights and advice. Once I have processed everything and pull the trigger I will surely be posting a giant gloat (after receiving and providing pic's of course).

[Bernie Weishapl]

Bob I have both. I couldn't make up my mind. I use the captured unit on anything deeper than 9" and the articulating arm on smaller forms. I also find myself doing as Steve does doing the roughing with the captured unit especially if it is some knarly or hard wood then finishing it with articulating unit. I find it is easier to finesse on finishing cuts.

[Peter Fabricius]

Well Bob;
I guess I have to go with the recommendations of the others, re: the Articulated System.... I ordered it about two weeks ago and just waiting for Randy to tell me when it is ready.
For those that have bought one and imported it to Canada. What did it cost in "Duty and fees at the border" ???
I am considering having it shipped to a USA address and picking it up!??
Any information and comments from the Canadian experience would be appreciated.
thanks
Peter F.

[Jerry Marcantel]

Ok everyone, I read all the comments on this thread, and it seem to be general consensus that articulated systems aren't that great over 6" depth. Can someone tell why this is so??. I'm one day from finishing an articulated arm I started a couple weeks ago. If there is a depth problem, I should have built a captured system. Oh well!!!!.... Jerry (in Tucson)

[Michael James]

Ok everyone, I read all the comments on this thread, and it seem to be general consensus that articulated systems aren't that great over 6" depth. Can someone tell why this is so??. I'm one day from finishing an articulated arm I started a couple weeks ago. If there is a depth problem, I should have built a captured system. Oh well!!!!.... Jerry (in Tucson)
Jerry, a confirmed tinkerer and putterer like yourself should have both. If I didnt have space restrictions, I know I would....but I'd have to buy mine!
mj

[Reed Gray]

Jerry,
When you put in the 3 or so joints, they add flex to a system that you will not get with a straight bar. It just isn't as rigid. If you look at the Kobra system, and the Monster, you can see a difference in the size/mass of the arms and joints.

robo hippy

[Dan Kralemann]

It's been my experience that I can get a smaller entrance hole with the articulated. You can thread in the cutter easier. You can relocate the rear support on the captured, but it takes a little time. Also, if I want to hand cut an extreme shoulder undercut, the articulated can easily be parked out of the way. With the captured, if you need to get it off the tool rest, you have to pull it out of the rear support.

1) What is the smallest entrance hole one can get when using a captured system?
2) What is the smallest entrance hole one can get when using an articulated system?
3) Does the depth of the piece make a difference with the size of the opening using either ?
4) Does a large undercut make a difference with the size of the opening of the piece using either?

[Richard Coers]

1) What is the smallest entrance hole one can get when using a captured system?
2) What is the smallest entrance hole one can get when using an articulated system?
3) Does the depth of the piece make a difference with the size of the opening using either ?
4) Does a large undercut make a difference with the size of the opening of the piece using either?

The limiting element, to entering the opening, is the type of bars you have, and the way the cutter is held. If you have a bar with a 3/16" cutter fastened in, you can get in a pretty small hole. I have some 3/8" bars, one with the cutter straight in, another with the cutter at 45 deg. With that, I have turned some 5" tall pieces with a 5/8 hole. If you have a 3/4" bar, with the cutter held in a notch in a 1" diameter disc, you need at least 1 1/4. A problem comes in with the position of the cutter in the disc. If it's off to the side, the captured system will not let you angle over far enough to lead in with the cutter, then follow with the disc. Of course, you can pivot the rear support over to do the top section of the hollow vessel, then straighten out the cutter and reposition the rear support, but it gets a little frustrating. If I have a real sharp return to cut, I use a hand held tool with the cutter turned all the way back. I just use that for final wall thicknessing. A tall piece can be cut with a pretty small hole. The cutter is kept at a slight angle. Flat wide vessels need the larger holes to get back under the top, and out to the larger diameter. Do some experiments. Drill some different size holes in a piece of plywood. Clamp that to the bed of the lathe if you want to, then see what it will take to get a cutter 3, 4, or 6" away from that piece of plywood. I have bent bars, s bent bars, straight bars, and bars with disc/cutter combos. My go to bars are a 3/4" straight with the cutter straight in the end, and a 3/4" s bend Stewart with the disc/cutter. That s bend Stewart will let me rotate the cutter all the way back, so I can actually cut a pretty drastic undercut. My articulated is a Rube Goldberg I made from black pipe and black pipe nipples. The captured is a Jamieson. Seems like I feel more comfortable with my $35 black pipe special. It is time for generation II since I just made it to prove the design. Now it's time to tighten up the joints and maybe even paint it! I'll also admit that you might get a splinter or two if you probe the inside of my vessels. I keep the top few inches pretty clean and as smooth as I want off the cutter, but I am not obsessed with making it a fine piece all the way down. I'm pretty comfortable with 1/8' walls now, but I have trouble selling these anyway. The idea of adding another $100 of labor on the inside doesn't make sense to me.

[David DeCristoforo]

The Monster is a top quality tool. The articulated system, as has been mentioned, is much "lighter on it's feet" and more maneuverable than the captured system. If you can only afford one or the other, I would go with the articulated rig. One thing to keep in mind is that, whichever you go with, you are getting not only top quality tooling but top quality service and support as well. Recently, the laser on my system failed. I sent Randy an email asking if I could buy a replacement separately. I received an email back within a few hours informing me that a new laser was "in the mail".

[Jeff Moffett]

I recently did similar research and ended up going with the Kobra system. I found several old threads where people mentioned having both Monster systems: one for deep hollowing and one for smooth finishing. Although the Kobra system is more expensive, you’ll get the benefit of deep, smooth hollowing all in one tool. My hunch is that the Monster system (either one) gives the most bang for your buck, but the Kobra system offers a more robust tool for deeper hollowing and, in my opinion, a superior design.

Two retired machinists, Jerry and Al, designed the Kobra. They don’t have a website, but they do have a couple of videos where they demonstrate the system on a 12 inch vase:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwcx-T6UnZ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B8HG5tLM04

If you want more information, email Jerry and Al at jatooling@yahoo.com or PM me with your email address and I’ll forward the information they sent me. If you decide to go with a Kobra, be prepared to wait. They have a waiting list and being retired, they’re in no hurry. I’m still waiting for mine, so my opinion is based strictly on what I’ve seen and read and not hands on use.

[Justin Stephen]

BTW, I did email about the Kobra system and they are no longer making the smaller green one, only the larger red one. I can only assume that the red one will not fit on a lathe like the 46-460.

[Roger Chandler]

I would give you my review of the Monster Hollowing system, if I had it! Randy shipped it, but the POST OFFICE cannot not seem to make a delivery! It was sent priority mail, and has been sitting in a sort facility for over 3 days, and was supposed to be delivered 3 days ago. One of the postal employees told me, that they were told a lot of things would be late due to the super bowl parties, and that she was just being honest.

I guess a lot of the postal employees must have huge hangoevers!

[Bill Blasic]

I use the Monster Articulating System the most as I do have both systems. I like using the Kelton hollowers or the Jordan hollowers as they both do a great job with a smaller hole to go through. With an opening as big as was used in the Kobra video Randy's supplied tools would have no problem going to that depth for me. Now when you get to the laser there is nothing easier to set than the one supplied with the Monster Systems. One thing you can count on when I'm using these systems is that there is always a smile on my face.
Bill