Metal Inlay in Wood

[Jeff Belany]

I have a question for all you gurus out there. I have a customer who has asked me about doing a metal inlay (brass?) in a wood box. (high end jewelry box) 2 images per box, top and front. I’m looking for ideas on where to go to get the inlays cut out. (laser? Water jet?) I would then laser a recess in the wood, glue in the metal and then sand flush. Lots of work. So my second question is this – what other methods would you consider? My thoughts:

Foil stamping, gold foil with a stamping press

Would DyeSub work? Can you get a metallic look? If I had someone print the images could I get a press and put them on?

An Inlace (Powdered metal) glued into a reces with epoxy or CA and then sanded flush.

Any others ideas would be welcome. This could be a nice regular job of 200-500 items per year. BTW -- the image shown is just a Windows symbol but it is similar to the logo in style. I was asked not to post the logo itself.

Thanks in advance,

Jeff in northern Wisconsin

[Dan Hintz]

For that quantity, no question in my mind... waterjet. You could cut out enough brass designs in 30-50mil brass in an hour or two, costing you a few hundred $s, not including material. Start with an engraver's brass sheet (clear coated), stack 'em, cut 'em, throw 'em in a box.

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

The only concern I would have is wood movement. As the wood would contract and expand at a different rate of the brass. My first inclination would to make the inlay cut just slightly larger. IE a .005 gap or so. This could keep the brass from buckling in the future. If the wood is a engineered wood like ply then its less of an issue. If not look at a wood that has the least wood movement.

[Jeff Belany]

One thing I forgot -- the size is just under 2" and if cut it would be 13 pretty small pieces. Might be a bear to glue up all the parts.

The wood will be solid but should be pretty stable, it's very dense.

Jeff in northern Wisconsin

[Martin Boekers]

You may check on a local metal fab shop to get some ideas. I had some stainless steel water jet cut awhile back and the clean up
and polishing took quite a bit of time. You may consider doing a die and have it punch pressed.

I needed it done in a hurry and it was quite a bit expensive, for a 12x15x.5" piece of stainless which I had about 12 pieces cut out
(I provided a DFX file so it saved some on set-up) cost me over $1000.
There is quite a bit of set up on a water jet as compared to a laser.

Another thing to consider is Rub n Buff as a fill, that tends to look nice. I believe Mike Null mention some metallic paints awhile back
you may do a search here and see.

Before I would do a foil stamp, I'd explore screen printing. Dye Sub doesn't have metallic ink set that I am aware of.

There are other metal process out there such as CosmicChrome, but the aren't cheap.

Let us know what you decide on.

Marty

[Gary Hair]

Jeff,
For the ease of use I would consider inlace or something like that. You can laser the pocket through a mask and then apply the inlace and remove the mask when it's dry. Cleanup should be minimal as you can control the height of the inlace above the wood with your mask. Any time you mix an inlay cut by someone else and a pocket that you have made, you will have to fiddle with the sizing, inlace takes out that variable. If I couldn't cut the inlay and pocket with my laser, or my router, then I would try to find alternatives.

Gary

[Mike Null]

With that much volume I would consider having them die cut or cast. Castings in that volume can be surprisingly inexpensive. Try Catania.

[Michael Hunter]

If the brass is fairly thin, then etching the parts from the sheet ("chemical milling") is a cost-effective way to go.

[Scott Weinstein]

If you are in need to do a sample, and the metal was thick enough, I would go for a jewelers saw to make the initial sample. It is CHEAP, easy to use, and not too labor intensive, minus changing out those little blades every time they break! You could even put a mask over the metal, laser the lines to be cut, then saw away by tracing those lines.

From my understanding a laser cutter will not work on a reflective material like that. Waterjet is in my opinion your best bet for a production run. If you are going to a waterjet company, they will most likely charge you just as much to cut out one logo, as they are would to cut out 50. Minimums can be a bear in that industry, understandable, but not very practical for one-off jobs. The finishing will always be an issue when going for a polished metal, you can obviously purchase it polished, but it will scratch easily... and there is no "easy" way to fix scratches in polished metal.

Gluing it in and sanding it flush does not sound very practical to me, not to mention dirtying up the wood with all that metal sanding dirt. Then, how would you finish the wood? I think if I were to go about it, I would have the pre-finished wood box, raster the inlay shape, then glue in the polished logo. You will not be able to get it perfectly flush from #1-#500 with rastering the negative, unless you were to cnc mill into the wood the depth of the thickness of the metal.

As for the dye-sub, I don't think that screams "high-end", foil would be cool, but hard to work with as it is very fragile.

[Martin Boekers]

There are quite a few companies that make thin custom brass Christmas ornaments, cheaply, that may be another avenue to explore.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Chewbarka might be a good person to talk to. Otherwise, the metal is not a difficult task. I'd open up the yellow pages and see what options you have locally. I normally find when doing research within the industry, it's fairly easy to end up in the right place. I think stamping or laser cutting will be your best bet. CNC and waterjet are options as well.

Honestly, if I were you, I'd be most concerned with getting a consistent engraved depth. Wood is inconsistent. I'm not sure if you can get 500 pieces engraved at the same depth. In fact, I highly doubt it. Would it be good enough? Hard to say without knowing the wood. Personally, I think a CNC router is a more accurate tool for the job.

It might be opening a can of worms, but it might be worth looking into building the boxes custom. It's a bit of a long shot, but there is a possibility that there might be a benefit of building everything from the ground up.

[Dan Hintz]

Ross is correct about the inconsistent depth... though one possible way around that is to engrave with enough power that it is always too deep with the intention of sanding the wood down to the level of the metal. You will still run into issues with sanding into the metal, but it's another avenue to consider.

[Mike Null]

The inconsistency of the wood can easily be remedied with a sufficient first depth of engraving and adjusting with adhesive. Without seeing a representation of the logo, actual or not, it's hard to recommend a solution.

If the parts can be incorporated into a coin shape then I'd stll look hard at a casting.

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

Oh I missed the point about engraving the depth in stead of cutting it through. I have to tell you that is very difficult. I have done it with the inlay piece being wood and I could sand it smooth. Your only option is to engrave a little deep then sand it to the perfect depth (before inserting the inlay piece) other wise its going to be a disaster. Overall I have to say what you want to do is going to be difficult at best. Practice on a couple pieces of scrap before you spend any money having the metal cut. Engravinging to a particualr depth is very very very very difficult. I have tried on many ocasions and failed. Thats not to say its not possible but count on lots of scrap.

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

Ok a little math and based on the Forests Wood Property handbook lets look at Walnut.

At 6% (and up to 14%) walnut will have a coefficient of around .002 per inch. So at 2" thats .004. If you happen to glue you inlay at during a dry period you can expect a gap of .004 or slightly less depending on which side gets most of the gap. If you happen to glue your inlay during the wet part of the year (summer) you can expect it to crack the wood or buckle the metal inlay. Your best bet here would to be make sure you have a slight gap if not you can be assured that best case the glue will fail or worst the wood will buckle the thin inlay.

most softer woods like pine and ceder have lower coefficients. Also Quarter sawn wood is a bit more stable than Flat sawn wood. For instance flat sawn hickery or beech have a coefficient of almost .005. Thats .02 of movement for a 2" piece.

Wood expansion is a given and its important that with any project we kee that movement in mind or you may get a call 6 months down the line from a very unhappy customer.

[Dan Hintz]

To mitigate the valid issue Michael brings up, use a flexible adhesive, like a thin bead of silicone just around the inner edge of the metal piece (i.e., not slathering the entire back).

[George D Gabert]

During a Roy Brewer seminar, I saw a demonstration of laserbits laser foil in polished gold. It looked pretty good. Lasered pattern in wood and then placed foil over wood and then vector cut foil. You might then be able to clear cost wood and foil.

Another method might be to engrave wood and fill with gold guilders paint, prior to sealing box.

GDG

[Mike Null]

I would not be concerned with wood movement in this application. Having done numerous inlays with metal, plastic, abalone, and wood I have never experienced any visible wood movement, even after years. Wood movement is greatly affected by humidity but in this case ambient conditions and the finish of the wood largely negates that.

Foil is not a suitable material for this application as it is not durable enough to be handled. It could be used if it were covered with glass or acrylic. Another option is encasing the logo in acrylic.

[Jeff Belany]

I want to thanks everyone for all the input. Unfortunately I live up in the boonies and no fab shops nearby. I hope I can convince the customer to use an inlace type material but I told them I would research the metal inlay option (which is their first choice).

Anyone have a photo of a project done with the laser foil? I've seen it in their catalog but have never tried it. I suppose I could order a sheet and give it a try.

BTW -- the boxes will be fabricated locally. I could send the pieces to someone with a CNC router to do the recess. The only issue I have with routing is getting the fine tips on the points using a round router bit. The art I show on my post is quite similar to the styl;e of the customers logo.

Thanks again for all your help.

Jeff in northern Wisconsin

[Richard Rumancik]

It really depends on the customer's budget - obviously metal inlay will cost much more so it depends on whether the customer wants a high-end box (metal inlay) or inexpensive box (foil decal). Metal inlay will cost 10x-20x as much as foil decal because of increased material cost and much more labor. The budget will help define the method, in my mind.

If you go metal, I would do research on inlays for guitars. This has been done for ages and they know the tricks. I borrowed a book once on inlays for musical instruments and the work is amazing. You might see what they use for adhesives. In the book I had, I believe the author used cyanoacrylate adhesives. Of course, they don't usually use lasers to cut pockets.

Depending on how thick you need the parts to be, I would seriously look at photoetching (Michael called it chemical milling). And yes, that is how brass Christmas tree ornaments are made. If you do an image search on "photo etched parts" you will get the idea. Thinner is cheaper and more practicable - you night need .010" or .020" - I'm not sure. You are probably not near a photo etching facility but that should not stop you. The tooling is basically artwork (film) and costs only a couple hundred dollars and parts are cheap to mail.

If the brass is sanded after installation it will need to be coated with lacquer or something to prevent tarnishing. But since you will be finishing the wood anyway they would be coated together.

I agree it will be challenging and time comsuming, but if you can work out the process details it will have the best appearance.

I don't think casting little parts would be suitable, but if the customer was willing to insert a cast medallion then you could make a simple pocket and not worry about depth. One manufacturer is AT Designs (atdesigns.com). Tooling is not expensive - sometimes there is no die charge.

[Richard Rumancik]

Oh I missed the point about engraving the depth in stead of cutting it through. I have to tell you that is very difficult. . . .Engravinging to a particualr depth is very very very very difficult. I have tried on many ocasions and failed. . .

Michael - not sure if this idea will work for Jeff as he has lots of pockets but I thought I'd throw it out. The musical instrument guys that do inlay cut their outlines with X-acto knives and carve the inside with Dremel-tools on a router base. (The challenge is not to run the router into the edge of the pocket.)

How about this: Raster the pocket as usual with the laser, but leave some high pads in selected areas, away from the edges. (These might be entirely un-lasered areas.) Then use the Dremel-router (or cnc mill) to shave the pads to the right depth relative to the surface. Fill the pocket with adhesive to the height of the pads (difference should be less than .010"). The inlay will sit on the pads in a defined position.

[Mike Null]

179975179976179977Here is a link to a previous thread on inlaying abalone using a laser for rastering the opening and cutting the abalone.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?78709-Engraving-a-fretboard...

And a photo of foil. This foil is not more than .004" thick and is intended for surface application with a vector cut and weeding.

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

Check this out. Very interesting.
http://www.elvesofester.com/coldinlay.html

[Jeff Belany]

You guys are full of ideas. I'm going to work on some samples (foil & inlace) and other ideas and see that the customer thinks. The end user is a jewelry maker in Europe. I'm only a small link in the whole project.

Thanks again,

Jeff in northern Wisconsin

[Chuck Stone]

Ross is correct about the inconsistent depth... though one possible way around that is to engrave with enough power that it is always too deep with the intention of sanding the wood down to the level of the metal. You will still run into issues with sanding into the metal, but it's another avenue to consider.

another option is to engrave too deep and then seal the inlay area with
cyanoacrylate glue (I'd use thin superglue) and then flood with more CA
while the piece is on a level surface. That will give you a consistent depth
and a level sub-surface on which to apply the inlay.

Someone else mentioned Rub-n-Buff. This will look great UNTIL you apply
a top coat. That stuff turns into a dull muddy wash when you apply any
solvent based coating. It no longer looks metallic and it no longer stays
where you originally put it. (try it on some scrap)

One way around this is to use a water based over-coat to seal the Run-n-Buff
before applying a top coat. I've used Modge Podge with limited success, but
had better luck with 'padding cement' from a printer. That's used to edge bind
paper sheets together into a pad of paper. It will dry clear and give you an even
protective (if somewhat flexible) surface to work with.
I don't think I'd use it in this particular application.. but it's a good tool to have
for other projects where you want to use metallic paints or Rub-n-Buff and
don't want it smeared by your top coat.

I like the cold cast inlay idea (but then, I've been doing lots of cold cast lately)
but it would take a LOT of metallic powder, since it settles. I usually work from
the back of the casting, so the metal settles to the front. (thanks, gravity!) but
to fill from the top and have the metal show would take a LOT of metal in the resin.

Wish I could find a 'how-to' for the chemical milling.. that kicked several ideas in
my mind if I could only find some info on doing small quantities in my shop..

[Michael Hunter]

Chuck

The principals of photo-etching/chemical milling are just the same as producing printed circuit boards for electronics projects. There are plenty of places that sell "starter kits" for etching PCBs so the equipment and chemicals are not too hard to get hold of.

You need to mask both sides. The simple way (so long as there is not too much fine detail) is to get two copies of the artwork on clear film (one mirrored) and staple these together to form a pocket that you slide the metal sheet (with photo-resist on) into. That way you get pretty good alignment without too much hassle.

The traditional etching stuff is ferric chloride. Unfortunately this is not the best for chemical milling as it undercuts the edges badly (as well as being horrible stuff generally). There are better etching solutions available - you just need to explain what you are trying to do.

[John Barton]

These letters were cut by laser. We have a friend who has a laser the size of a small apartment. He cut the three letters for me and welded tabs on the back. I deburred and cleaned them up with a dremel. Took me about 30 minutes to get all the edges smooth the surface polished to my liking.

http://jbcases.com/cases/cmd/cmd-e-name.jpg

[Jeff Belany]

George D Gabert (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?27128-George-D-Gabert)



During a Roy Brewer seminar, I saw a demonstration of laserbits laser foil in polished gold. It looked pretty good. Lasered pattern in wood and then placed foil over wood and then vector cut foil. You might then be able to clear cost wood and foil.

Another method might be to engrave wood and fill with gold guilders paint, prior to sealing box.

I tried some Laserfoil but I just vector cut it. If you raster out a recess, doesn't the foil get the texture off the bottom of the recess when you burnish it? Seems it would. I have a roll of Laserfoil on order so I will have some to play with.

Jeff in northern Wisconsin

[George D Gabert]

Jeff

I only saw a demonstration on cutting the material. It looked pretty nice from a distance. Someone also stated that it was only .004 thick, there for it could be vector cut and when you place the finish on it will look like it was recessed into the wood.

GDG

[Chuck Stone]

You need to mask both sides. The simple way (so long as there is not too much fine detail) is to get two copies of the artwork on clear film (one mirrored) and staple these together to form a pocket that you slide the metal sheet (with photo-resist on) into. That way you get pretty good alignment without too much hassle.

I was just too stubborn to let it go.. :p

Well .. everything about this was a pain in the butt! Registration was a head scratcher..
especially since I did it on a shoestring. No photo resist, no ferric chloride, but I had
some hydrochloric acid in the shop. I mixed that with hydrogen peroxide and it worked.

I ended up using a polyester adhesive sheet for a mask. Some kind of glossy inkjet
sticker material, I think. I used the glossy because I was pretty sure the acid wouldn't
soak in. That part worked well.

Next time I do this, I won't do 3/8" text with individual letters in a special font.
I'll probably weld the letters together, underline them .. anything to keep them in
one piece! (but this was someone's business logo/lettering, had to do it)

ps .. do you know what it's like to test fit 30 letters into a piece of wood and at the
very end, realize that you're short ONE letter .. and you're standing over a 6" deep
pile of sawdust and wood shavings? :(184327

[Michael Hunter]

You sure found the hardest possible way to do it - but the end result looks great!

[Chuck Stone]

LOL .. yeah.. I don't start out with baby steps, I guess.
I have another piece going right now, the logo has bands running
through it that are only 0.010" so we'll see how that holds up.

[Rodne Gold]

Well , that is a design most small computerised type rotary engravers could cut with a V-bit , my small roland could churn em out - all you do to avoid seeing the bevel the V bit would make is flip the pieces and glue em in upside down.

[Chuck Stone]

yes.. but what about the joy of playing with hazardous chemicals?

this one has some pretty small parts, and you can see the mis-regiatration
if you look close. But under an epoxy coating it shows less.
Still working on it though..
184423

[George M. Perzel]

Hi gang;
The only way I would touch this job is by using some type of fill material, enlace, resin, gilders paste- a lot of options. Using cut metal pieces is asking for a lot of grief, not only in handling and placement but also in insuring a level final surface. If you are going to do it with metal, ask whether you can modify the design to have all the pieces joined (in the center?)
Good Luck
Best Regards;
George
Laserarts

[Michael Hunter]

There is something special about real metal inlays which lifts the result above anything that you can achieve with paint/gunge/Romark.

Chuck is well on the way to producing the sort of high quality (and hence high value) items which the rest of us are just simulating when we do it the "easy way".

[George M. Perzel]

Hi gang;
Not sure if Michael is referring to my previous post, but , in the event that he is, producing quality work does not necessarily mean pushing the bounds of practicality. Why not use gold, silver, or even platinum for a really top notch job? Not for 300 pieces and certainly not from an economic standpoint. Common sense should prevail and what the customer is willing to pay is the most important consideration. What is his budget for this?? tell me and I'll give you my opinion of the best way to do it. Meanwhile, I'll continue to use the best methods (the easy way) available to produce the best possible results within my customer's budget.
Michael, if you weren't referring to my post-my apologies.
Best Regards;
George
Laserarts

[Rodne Gold]

George , some customers want the "real thing" and will pay to get it, there is a perception that "real brass inlay" is more upmarket (and in fact its not a perception , it is more upmarket) than something ersatz.
We get that a lot , the customer has made their mind up about what they want and nothing else will do- despite being able to get the same effect a lot cheaper - so they pay for doing it the difficult way
That way they DO get what they want and we get more money.

[Richard Rumancik]

George, I'm sure the post was not intended to be a slight or anything. You have a market for your products and Chuck is experimenting in other areas. We all have to find a niche where we like the work and can (hopefully) make money doing it. Perhaps Chuck may find a market for precious metal inlay - in the jewelry box or cremation urn or high-end pen/pen box areas, or example. Maybe it is just something you would not be willing to do yourself but I think it is unique and has some potential. For your customers you are offering something they are happy with. So you are providing a quality product to your customers - something they want at a price they are comfortable with.

Quality means providing what the customer wants at the price he/she is willing to pay. If the customer does not have the money, then the customer cannot expect metal inlay. But if the customer wants metal, and has the budget for metal, then to me quality is providing metal inlay within the budget, not trying to convince the customer that something else (like metallized epoxy) would be just as good.

Finding the high-end customers can be difficult but there are some out there. If you don't wish to operate in that area that is a business decision but I wish Chuck well. I have been interested in etching and inlay for some time but have not actually done it - Chuck has given it a try with limited equipment and resources and it looks promising.

Some people engrave photos on marble and granite - I have not pursued that market because I can't find people willing to pay. But that's fine; if somebody else can make money in that niche I don't have a problem with that. Quite honestly, the more niche areas that people find, the better for everybody, as we are not all competing for the same work.

[Chuck Stone]

I probably confused the issue by posting it in this thread instead of starting one..
Apologies to all