Micro bevel or no?

[Richard Dooling]

I’ve not been a big fan of micro bevels because I prefer to hone freehand. I don’t want take the time to use a jig every time I need to touch up an edge while working.

Two of my new plane irons came with micro bevels though, and this has me rethinking the issue. I am having some success freehand honing the micro bevel, but I imagine that I’m really establishing a new angle every time I hone. I know I don’t have the skill to hit the same exact angle repeatedly, session to session, on a micro bevel.

On the other hand it just seems so simple to keep a sharp primary bevel on a hollow ground edge that I’m not sure if there is any real advantage to using a micro bevel.

So I’d love to hear different views on this – especially from those folks who get a blade so sharp that the hair jumps off their arm before the blade even gets there.:D

Micro bevel or no?

IF micro bevel then jig or freehand?

Thanks
.

[David Weaver]

Sorry for the bland answer to come - but do whatever you like to do that's fast and easy enough that you won't skip doing it, but still creates an edge sharp enough for you to be satisfied.

I have done what you're doing a few times, well, and I do it all the time on my heavily cambered irons. As long as you're mindful, you can chase that secondary higher in angle fairly slowly and grind all of it off the next time you grind the iron, and do that over and over. Maybe get like 4 or 5 good hones off of the edge before it becomes a pain and you have to grind.

that's not so desirable on chisels, but on BD planes, as long as your relief angle is good enough that the plane performs the way you want...

[John Coloccia]

For freehand, I hollow grind. If I want to microbevel, I use a jig, mostly because it's hard to maintain a flat bevel freehand. Is what you're doing working for you? So what if you're changing the bevel a little each time? If you get good results, I wouldn't worry about changing anything.

Now what I don't do is put a microbevel on a hollow ground edge. Other than pigsticker style mortise chisels, where there really is, in my opinion, an great advantage to a shallow primary and much higher secondary bevel, the whole point of a micro bevel is to make sharpening faster because you don't have to abrade the entire length of the bevel. Hollow grinding does precisely the same thing. If I wanted a 30 degree cutting edge, I would never hollow grind to 25 and then hone at 30 because that's a waste of time IMHO and now I'm also back to using a jig or guesstimatting the micro freehand. I would just establish my primary at 30.

The place I like to keep a dead flat bevel is on my paring chisels. No micro bevel, and no hollow. I much prefer this for bevel down use.

Again, that's just how I happen to do things and it works well for me. There's a zillion other ways that work as good or better.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Do consider what you want micro bevel for. Micro beveling a blade isn't so much for helping with edge retention, but it's for maintenance purposes. It's quicker and more efficient to work on a small amount of metal than the whole bevel. If you are hollow grinding and free hand on the stone, micro bevel isn't going to contribute much more to help you maintain the edge. Hollow ground bevel already has significantly reduced metal surface to work with (unless bevel is nearly flat and need another grinding), so if you don't have specific reason to have micro bevel, I think it's pointless.

I know some people say micro bevel contributes to better edge retention, but I don't think it makes noticeable difference in a realistic and tangible sense.

[john brenton]

I'm one of those people that thinks it makes a noticeable difference...although it wouldn't be surprising to find out that scientific tests shows that it doesn't.

I know that before using micro bevels on plane irons and chisels I always seemed to be spending time at the sharpening table, and now I don't. That could of course be because I used to hone free-hand, and now using a jig is kind of a pain...not a BIG DEAL, but it is a little more of a pain then just grabbing a chisel and honing.

[Jim Koepke]

What ever works best for the person doing the work.

My usual manner is to not have a micro bevel or to use the ruler trick. Sometimes it is just faster to make sure no one is watching and go ahead and freehand a micro bevel or a back bevel.

I have not set up a wheel yet to produce a hollow grind, so it is all flat bevels for me.

What ever works.

jtk

[Johnny Kleso]

I think even freehanding you can micro bevel to some extent by just adding more pressure to the edge..

I use all methods.. I use a jig for re-grinding old blades I just recieved and in the middle of planing jobs I sometimes freehand..
Microbevels save sandpaper and stones..

[Don Dorn]

Everyone has a system that seems to work for them. I do the following using a free-hand method even though it's hollow ground. Not my idea though, got it from a Rob Cosman DVD and it works very well. In this case, I did it with a $3.00 2" plane blade just to show it can be done with little time and effort.

http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n124/djdorn/?action=view&current=Sharpeningfreehand.mp4

[Pam Niedermayer]

The only, and I do mean only, time I use microbevels is on very strong (usually large and heavy and thick, very thick) chisels used to chop dai mortises. This seems to help keep the edge intact in very trying situations, such as Japanese white oak. Other than that, never do I sharpen microbevels on any other blades, nor back bevels.

Pam

[Chris Fournier]

I use a micro bevel and I put it on by hand. Just slow down on your last pass at the finest grit that you use - "feel" the heal of the blade lift (you're doing the lifting) and take a pass or two at most. Done. A micro bevel is just that - micro.

[Russell Sansom]

I also hollow grind and then hone freehand. Before Tormek, I used a jig and secondary bevel. Yes it's a pain to put the chisel back in the jig for a tune up. But an "angle setting jig" makes it pretty easy to get close. So from this duality of styles I still use both.
The ideal is the hollow grind that I just swipe a few times freehand at each grit and I'm back at the bench. But when there's substantial material to remove to take out a nick, I go for the jig and a micro bevel. Sometimes the geometry of the chisel and the stiction on the stones just makes free handing awkward, again I'll go for the jig and micro bevel. I don't do it a lot, but on many occasions it's saved having to stop the presses for a regrind. And, finally, sometimes it just makes sense to go to another cutting angle. Hard to beat a jig and micro bevel for that and ultimately saves some chisel length.
The original question, though, I think was meant to ask if the secondary bevel is stronger, sharper, better than not. I don't see a lot of difference in use. Every sharpening event is different and I can't average out the difference in my head.

[John Coloccia]

One trick for you Tormek guys. Buy a second support bar and keep it mounted in fixed position all the time. Then you can set the angle of chisel/plane iron based on projection from the holder, just like the side clamp jigs. Then you can simply make a small piece of plywood with little stops on it for the various cutting angles. If you put a little stop on the underside as well, right at the edge (i.e. make a little lip) you can put it on your bench and push against it with the holder, and it will lock against the bench. This makes for a far more convenient system, IMHO. Frankly, Tormek should upgrade their system to include something like this as it's far superior to that goofy angle setter thingamabob that comes with it.

[Terry Beadle]

On mortise chisels, no micro bevel.
On every day chisels, micro bevels set to the material being worked on. Soft wood, like basswood, no micro bevel and a sub 25 degree primary. Hardwoods, the harder, the higher the micro bevel and if its really knarlly ( not a California surfer term ... hoot ! ) then a back bevel ala David Charlesworths technique that he uses for plane blades ( not recommended for normal chisel work and requires very careful hammer tapping ).
On paring chisels, sub 25 degree primary, no micro bevel.

If you go sub 20 degrees, your steel will turn unless you have extremely exceptional steel on most American hardwoods.

[Frank Drew]

The only blades to which I add a secondary bevel are Western style plane blades, and not even all of those. I use a guide, the kind that can lift the blade a tiny amount with just a single click off the setting for the main bevel.

I've never put a back bevel on a blade (and wouldn't with a bench chisel, in any case.)

[Mark Roderick]

Just a question of time saving. If I've hollow-ground the blade then I just hone by hand. Once I've done that a bunch of times, if I'm in a hurry to finish something before I re-grind, I'll use the Lee Valley jig to hone a micro-bevel. Once I've done that a few times then I re-grind.

[Richard Dooling]

Thanks for everyone’s input. I think I’ll stick with my current method of establishing the bevel on a wheel and freehand honing. The exception may be my shooting board plane where I want an absolutely straight edge. I'll use a jig there.

There doesn't seem to be any strong consensus here that the micro bevel adds substantially to edge strength and retention which I thought might be the case. So the ease of quick freehand honing works for me . . . for now . . .

Anyway none of this is written in stone and I usually do what makes sense at the time. Some days for whatever reason the gods of sharpness abandon me and I just reach for the LV MkII.

Sam's comment has also made me realize that I actually do use a sort of a micro bevel since the concave edge of the iron is only abraded at the two ends of the arc. It’s quick doesn’t need a jig since the edge only contacts the abrasive at two points. It’s basically self registering.