Carving tools pricing conundrum

[Rich Purdum]

After doing some very crude carving on a pirate chest for my grandson, I started looking into better tools only to have a severe case of sticker shock. Does anyone have an idea as to how a 4" piece of steel and a bit of wood can command in excess of $30? Is it low volume or difficulty of manufacture or simply that's what the market will tolerate? If I look at an equally high end chisel it is around the same price with a lot more material so I am bewildered. Maybe I'm just too "thrifty".

[Jim Koepke]

That price is why I have bought most of my gouges and such on ebay.

I bought one new one and was not impressed with it for the price.

Especially when you get to the bigger Gouges the prices for used is much better. This may have changed since I haven't bought many in a long time.

jtk

[Brian Kent]

After doing some very crude carving on a pirate chest for my grandson, I started looking into better tools only to have a severe case of sticker shock. Does anyone have an idea as to how a 4" piece of steel and a bit of wood can command in excess of $30? Is it low volume or difficulty of manufacture or simply that's what the market will tolerate? If I look at an equally high end chisel it is around the same price with a lot more material so I am bewildered. Maybe I'm just too "thrifty".

A Yamaha Professional Piccolo uses the same about of metal and a little wood and it costs $2,698.

[John Sanford]

A Yamaha Professional Piccolo uses the same about of metal and a little wood and it costs $2,698.

yes, but that's a Yamaha. If it was a Harley-Davidson piccolo, it would use twice as much metal (all chrome), and cost 4 times as much as the Yamaha, but have a wierd bass-beat.....

potato-potato

:p

[Adam Cherubini]

Does anyone have an idea as to how a 4" piece of steel and a bit of wood can command in excess of $30? Maybe it's made in America or Europe instead of China?

[Pam Niedermayer]

There are any number of ways to purchase cheaper carving chisels; but then what you normally receive are cheap carving chisels. I've got old western chisels (Addis mostly) that weren't all that cheap and Japanese carvers that were kind of expensive, too. Both varieties were available on the bay for very reasonable prices, say $10-20 per. Recently I was put on to some Chinese carvers by a very knowledgeable friend on another forum, sold by DICK in Germany. I bought a set (a rule violation for me) of 18 traditional style for $40 plus $40 shipping. You can see them here. (http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product/700970/Chinese-Carving-Blades-18-piece-set/detail.jsf) They won't be here for a week or so, and I'll still have to make handles and do some tuning; but it works out to less than $4.50 per.

OTOH, there's the Mack Headley example. He made a Philadelphia style game table and did the carving, including cabriole legs complete with ball and claw feet and acanthus leaved knees, with plain old flat chisels. There may still be a video available from Colonial Williamsburg.

Pam

[David Weaver]

>>Is it low volume or difficulty of manufacture or simply that's what the market will tolerate?<<

i think it's this, combined with the fact that it does cost money to manufacture them and they're being made in europe, where our exchange rate doesn't buy us as much.

I heard some scuttle a while ago that one of the carving tool makers had big increases in employee costs due to benefits (pensions, etc) and that was about the same time that the exchange rate went into the pot, so carving tools got expensive really quickly.

in this case, I think you are either pay it, wait for sales, or forego carving. You're always going to need one for a project that you don't have, so you can't really rely on just finding them at a flea market or yard sale for cheap like you can bench chisels, etc.

[Robert Rozaieski]

The cost isn't in the material, it's in the labor. Flat chisels may have more metal in them, but they are easier to forge than sweeps. If you check out Henry Taylor's web site, they explain that each and every carving tool must be individually hand forged (using power hammers of course) and finished. Because there are so many different shapes and sizes of carving tools (hundreds, compared to what, a set of 12 flat chisels), each one must be individually forged and then the bevels are ground and honed/polished manually. It takes a skilled hand to do this. They can't just be stamped out on a machine. This is also why (I think) you don't really see mid priced carving tools like you do with flat chisels. There are cheap, drop forged, asian import sets that basically have no hand work done and aren't worth the $20 per set that you pay for them, and then there are high end quality, hand forged tools. There's really no middle ground in the manufacturing process because of the hand work required to produce a decent tool. The raw material cost is low, but the labor cost for forging the tool is significant.

Plus, as Adam said, the quality carving tools available are all made in Britain & Continental Europe. So the labor cost is pretty much what it would be if they were made in the US. If you compare these carving tools to premium chisels like those from LN, AI, Two Cherries, Hirsch, or any blacksmith made Japanese chisel, the prices are on par. You're paying for the skilled labor.

[Bob Lang]

It's not like there's an automatic carving gouge making machine that you feed steel and wood in one end that spits out finished tools from the other. If you place any value at all on skilled labor, $30 is a bargain.

Bob Lang

[glenn bradley]

I may be conditioned by the market but, $30 for a good quality carving tool is about right. I sure wouldn't make one for $30.

[John Powers]

The $30.00 carving tool I can easily see....it's the $200.00 saw and $600.00 flyrods that floor me. And I'm not old enough to remember the nickel loaf of bread my father used to talk about.

[David Weaver]

There aren't too many $30 carving tools left to begin with are there?

I looked over the rack of two cherries stuff at rockler a couple of weeks ago, and their price on the stuff must've been set for comic relief for those folks who get bored walking around the store. Even with a coupon, the price would've been poor.

The pfeil gouges woodcraft carries are nice, I think. The steel is nice in them and they are finished nicely. they are not cheap, though, either, and a second option with them is someone selling them in canada and shipping here for a little cheaper.

[john brenton]

Wow, that was a very concise and astute answer Brian.


A Yamaha Professional Piccolo uses the same about of metal and a little wood and it costs $2,698.

[Robert Rozaieski]

The $30.00 carving tool I can easily see....it's the $200.00 saw and $600.00 flyrods that floor me. And I'm not old enough to remember the nickel loaf of bread my father used to talk about.

The saw I can definitely see. I've made hand saws in various sizes, and for a hand made saw, $200 is a bargain. The time alone required to make one from scratch is worth more than $200.

Now the flyrod I too question, at least the graphite ones :). The only thing I can think would be the expense of the raw materials and research going into the blank design. Graphite rods aren't hard or time consuming to build (done that too) once the blank is done. But if we're talking hand crafted (not factory) cane, different story. I'd gladly pay $600 for one of those ;). If I could find one for $600.

[Brian Kent]

A quick check of Pfeil and full-sized Two Cherries - looks like closer to $40.

[Tri Hoang]

I recently got into a little bit of carving as well. The cost per tool isn't bad at $30 but having to get quite a few tools, it's adding up pretty quickly.

[John Powers]

Bob, not to nit pick but you say you can "see" a $200.00 saw......not you'd pay $200.00 for a saw. My little helper is grown up and wants to go to Georgetown in the fall so while I'm not making saws I am making my own row boat. So what's this have to do with you? The transom is okume ply. I'm thinking of using the #54 lock wood dye on it for a classic look. Very nice on your table. I have scrap for a test. Any tips on application and mixing? I'd be encapsulated in urethane or west system epoxy. Man is it snowing........

[george wilson]

I got my first set of Pfiel small size carving tools for $24.00 for the set of 12 in about 1965-66. I still have them,and added to them with the extra set of 6,but they were over $200.00 IIRC.

The trouble with carving tools and clamps is that you might need so many. Especially true of the clamps,at least.

It is too bad that carving tools I used to get for $2.50 up in the Pa. flea markets,have now become $30-$40 each. And not as choice as they once were,either.

It isn't too hard to buy 1/4" square W1 tool steel bars,and with simple tools forge out fishtail gouges.I have posted sets I made(not that I needed them). I just liked making them. You can probably find pictures of them if you do a search for"A set of carving tools I made,G. Wilson". I checked. That will bring them up. Flatten out the ends when red hot. Take various diameter steel rods. Get the chisel blank red hot again. Lay the steel bar on top,and hammer the chisel into a hardwood block while it lies on top of the wood. Make the "V" parting tool by filing with a triangular file on the inside. File up the outside to match.

I didn't make bolsters for mine,as they were push type carving tools. You could make quick bolsters by filing their tangs tapered(which you need to do anyway),and slipping a thick washer over the tang,so it jams most of the way up. Then,make handles,drill,and tap the tangs in. The steel is only about $4 or $6.00 for 36" pieces,and a Mapp gas torch is enough to harden their cutting ends.

[Dustin Keys]

I got my first set of Pfiel small size carving tools for $24.00 for the set of 12 in about 1965-66. I still have them,and added to them with the extra set of 6,but they were over $200.00 IIRC.

The trouble with carving tools and clamps is that you might need so many. Especially true of the clamps,at least.

It is too bad that carving tools I used to get for $2.50 up in the Pa. flea markets,have now become $30-$40 each. And not as choice as they once were,either.

It isn't too hard to buy 1/4" square W1 tool steel bars,and with simple tools forge out fishtail gouges.I have posted sets I made(not that I needed them). I just liked making them. You can probably find pictures of them if you do a search for"A set of carving tools I made,G. Wilson". I checked. That will bring them up. Flatten out the ends when red hot. Take various diameter steel rods. Get the chisel blank red hot again. Lay the steel bar on top,and hammer the chisel into a hardwood block while it lies on top of the wood. Make the "V" parting tool by filing with a triangular file on the inside. File up the outside to match.

I didn't make bolsters for mine,as they were push type carving tools. You could make quick bolsters by filing their tangs tapered(which you need to do anyway),and slipping a thick washer over the tang,so it jams most of the way up. Then,make handles,drill,and tap the tangs in. The steel is only about $4 or $6.00 for 36" pieces,and a Mapp gas torch is enough to harden their cutting ends.

Wow, now that's my kind of post!

I'm all about making my own tools by simple means. I had no idea that it was possible to make carving tools like this. I've been wanting to learn carving for months now. I tried it without the necessary tools and it wasn't any fun because I was fighting the tools the whole time and couldn't get the results I wanted. Even a simple project takes a handful of tools, and at $30 each that's quite an investment for a young guy putting together a shop.

This is right up my alley. As soon as I get my shop under control and get caught up on a few things, I think I'm going to tackle this project. I had given up on being able to learn carving for now as I needed the tool money for other things. Maybe I'll be able to start learning sooner than I thought...

Dustin

[Bob Strawn]

Wow, now that's my kind of post!

I'm all about making my own tools by simple means. I had no idea that it was possible to make carving tools like this. I've been wanting to learn carving for months now. I tried it without the necessary tools and it wasn't any fun because I was fighting the tools the whole time and couldn't get the results I wanted. Even a simple project takes a handful of tools, and at $30 each that's quite an investment for a young guy putting together a shop.

This is right up my alley. As soon as I get my shop under control and get caught up on a few things, I think I'm going to tackle this project. I had given up on being able to learn carving for now as I needed the tool money for other things. Maybe I'll be able to start learning sooner than I thought...

Dustin

George Wilson is totally correct on this. I doubt that mine are up to his standards, but they do good work. These are easy to make. I usually buy W1 drill rod for this sort of stuff. 3' of it will make 4 pieces just under 9" and should cost you under $5. W1 is quite forgiving and easy to work. For a lighter tool, I will take a 9" section heat the end to cherry red, but not quite sparking and then hammer it till it turns amber. Easy to fan the end, even shape a basic edge. If I need a larger sweep, I will start out by heating and pounding the end, so it becomes thicker. Then I reheat and hammer it flat. It may have to be heated several times so I usually do four or so at a time, heating the ones not being hammered.

After they are shaped, I heat them to dull red and plunge them into water and stir. Then I sand them a bit so I can see the metal and then I start heating the metal well back from where I plan to have it hold and edge. I heat the body to blue, not glowing, just discolored. as I heat it, I want the cutting edge to turn gentle straw or amber. This way the body will be closer to a spring temper, and just the area that will hold an edge is at a hard but more brittle temper. Once it is at the right color, I stop it by plunging it into water and stirring.

Then the shape and edge gets refined by grinding. I take a natural, but not animal hair, brush and dip it in water. This sits on the tool as I grind it. As the brush dries I will stop and wet it again so the tool stays damp as it is ground. This keeps the temperature down and maintains temper on the edge.

http://toolmakingart.com/images/Small%20mortise%20Chisels/Mortise%20Chisels%2003%20Rough%20blade.JPG

I 'needed' some quick tools for making a few precision mortises, so I made these. Since I am using 1/4" w1 drill rod for these, I drilled holes in a few blocks of wood so I could have handles while I worked the steel.

http://toolmakingart.com/images/Small%20mortise%20Chisels/Mortise%20precision.JPG

These are hardly up to the standards set by George, but they will do me fine for years to come. They also took very little time to make and hold a rather brilliant edge.

Making a nice octagonal handle is much harder than shaping the steel.

Bob

[george wilson]

Every carving tool I've made is not made to fully finished standards. If I'm carving and need a quick and dirty tool,I make up ones that will do the job as needed. I just don't post those.:)

Grinling Gibbons made them on the spot as required,too. I wasn't able to see his tools in England (completely forgot to look for then).but I hear they were rough too,except at the business end. He was carving for a living,and not making tools as finished objects.

Round drill rod is easier to find than square. MSC sells square W1 rod stock up to 1" square(I think it gets that big). 01 is easier to find,but why buy precision ground metal just to beat on? I prefer the cold drawn stock,and it is a lot cheaper,not having been ground. Ground drill rod is just as cheap as any. If you use 01 drill rod,just buy a large jug of vegetable oil to quench it in. The quench in any case needs to be large enough that the tool doesn't heat it noticeably. That would slow down the quenching speed,and the steel might not harden fully. Automatic transmission fluid is what we used at the shop. It works fine,too. Just DO NOT use USED motor oil. It will leave a thick,black coating on your metal that is hard as blazes to get off due to the carbon and crud in it.

To make a BRINE quench,add ice cream salt to water till a potato will float in it. Brine is better than plain water,as it prevents a gas envelope from forming around the tool,causing uneven quenching. You really don't need to worry about that for small tools,though. Brine WILL rust your tongs though,even if you carefully rinse them clean after every use.

Ice cream salt is the best salt. I don't know why. That's what the blacksmiths recommend. Harry,what say you???

[David Keller NC]

Dustin - If you think you'll set up a small forge and make quite a few of these (most of us carvers have 200+ tools, though aquired very gradually), a swage block might be a good investment. You can make one of these yourself from a chunk of mild steel - while buying a 15 lb. block of mild steel might be pretty pricey from a supplier like MSC, you can usually get something serviceable for next to nothing by visiting a local steel fabrication yard - such pieces are "off cuts", and the steel yard is typically just selling them off as scrap.

There are many resources on the net for setting up a small forge suitable for forging carving tools, blades and other small objects. You might be surprised at how inventive these folks are, and how inexpensive cobbling the parts together are when compared to purchasing a ready-to-go forge, anvil, blacksmith tools, etc... One site I read through had a pretty neat way to make a casting furnace out of a garbage can, alumina cement and a small blower. With it, the gentleman was able to heat bronze and brass up to the liquid state, and do his own backyard investment casting.

[David Keller NC]

Ice cream salt is the best salt. I don't know why. That's what the blacksmiths recommend. Harry,what say you???

George - I wonder if this has something to do with iodine; just about any table salt will have a trace amount of sodium iodate or equivalent salt to it to meet the nutritional requirement for iodine. Ice cream salt, as well as ice-melt salt, is unadulterated.

[Rich Purdum]

George, thanks for the "roll your own" encouragement. Since my small shop space won't accommodate a metal working area, I've been reluctant to try my hand at some "light duty" smithing because of safety concerns, but I'm now thinking it may be possible to cobble together a mobile station that could roll around (and be moved outside). Some heavy duty casters, a small anvil, a place for a grinder and a machinists vise...might just be doable (once I finish my current two projects).

[george wilson]

It has only been in recent years that I have had an actual anvil. Only the past 5,actually. I just didn't have space for 1 other years,till I moved and built this larger shop. All the other years I just used a thick piece of junkyard steel. It worked fine,just don't hit the steel with a hammer directly. Hit the tool you are forging,and you won't dent your soft piece of steel "anvil".

Unless you can get a REAL anvil in a small size,those little cast iron ones are even softer than a block of mild steel. You need to see that your small anvil has a tool steel top welded onto it. Test the top with a new,smooth cut file. A new,smooth cut file will cut harder steel than a new,coarse cut file. Don't over do it,though. You will ruin your file. Generally,I just test with the tip end for maybe an inch. A triangular file works too,as long as it is fine cut,like you'd sharpen a saw with.

[Bob Strawn]

If you go to a junkyard and get a section of rail road track, you will have a pretty nice anvil. Any of the mass market cast iron guys absorb shock and will make you work twice as hard. If you have a good anvil, everything is easier. If you get serious about blacksmithing then a real is probably a good investment. I have a section of rr track and what some blacksmiths call an ASO or Anvil Shaped Object. The rr track is better for just about everything.

Bob

[Dave Anderson NH]

I'll disagree with George on one small point on quenching O1 tool steel. If you have to do your work in the house or basement as I do,, as opposed to the garage or a separate shop, use either peanut oil or walnut oil for the quench. I used ATF once many years ago in my basement shop. It worked fine, but the major compaints and the amount of static I received from management about the smell required a promise never to do it again. My wife is generally very tolerant of my hobby and what I do, but this one set off a major "seismic event".

[george wilson]

Of course,I wasn't thinking about the smell,as we were using it in a regular shop UNDER a double exhaust fan with a big hood we built,too!!:) Oil WILL catch fire,too,for a moment,when you are quenching larger objects,like a 6" wide molding plane iron. I seriously doubt your small carving tools would ever do that. Maybe you SHOULD stick to water hardening steels if you are working in your garage or basement. you might set off smoke alarms,OR smoke up your paint. Your wife MIGHT give you a dirty look over that!!:)

[Rich Purdum]

Bob,

I have a decent scrap metal place close by but I have not seen any track. They do have some fairly thick chunks of steel but it's probably not too hard. I must confess to being a total neophyte about anvils. I have seen a CL add for a track anvil for a fair price.

My knowledge of anvils has been limited to "you're so dumb you could mess up an anvil...". I always thought they were just a big chuck of metal you could pound on. The comments from George about selecting one were an eye-opener.

After some craigslist and other searches, it's not clear to me how much one of these puppies should fetch. Most prices seem a bit steep and are for "big iron". I've seen some YouTube videos about exploding/launching anvils. Maybe that sport is driving up the price?

Needless to say I will approach my next anvil with a lot more respect!

[John Coloccia]

I like the "roll your own" approach as well. Coming from somewhat of a machinists background (I'm no real machinist, but I've had to make plenty of my own parts to get my job done), it's very common to simply make tools. It's sort of how woodworkers make jigs. You just do it. I love that so many have gotten buy just by simply sharpening screwdrivers for chisels! I don't really do this sort of stuff anymore, mostly because I'm concentrating on my craft and can't afford any more distractions (I really can't plus now that I've quit my day job I don't have the facilities anymore), but it's amazing what's been done with a sharp edge on a screwdriver. With a bit more knowledge and work you can make some really usable tools.

George: I wish you would post some of your rougher creations if for no other reason than it would make the rest of us feel better about the kludges we toss together :)

[Joel Moskowitz]

Grinling Gibbons made them on the spot as required,too. I wasn't able to see his tools in England (completely forgot to look for then).but I hear they were rough too,except at the business end. He was carving for a living,and not making tools as finished objects.

George,
Can you point me in the direction of where there is documentation that he made his own tools? I could not find a trace that any tools of his survived (I couldn't find anything in the references I looked up). I know some tools from other master carvers have survived from even earlier periods, but not specfiically by Gibbons.

[george wilson]

Joel,right now I am in the middle of eye surgery,and do not feel like trying to go back through several books. I perused my Grinling Gibbons book,but did not find it there. My right eye hurts-I think they used their devices to hold it open too hard. My left eye is on Monday. Maybe later.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Joel,right now I am in the middle of eye surgery,and do not feel like trying to go back through several books. I perused my Grinling Gibbons book,but did not find it there. My right eye hurts-I think they used their devices to hold it open too hard. My left eye is on Monday. Maybe later.

George,
Good luck with the surgury, I hope the recovery goes smoothly and quickly.
joel