ashley-I vs. lie-N chisels

[Michael MacDonald]

set of 5 ashley isles = about $150
set of 5 lie-nielsen = $280

approximately.

izzat extra $130 worth it? I am getting tired of losing the edge so fast on my marples. so someone, somewhere is going to sell me some chisels this week, I think.

I think it was fine woodworking... or perhaps the wktools (http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/cSchwarz/z_art/LNChisel/LN_chisel1.asp) review that sold me... I know that many will advocate for more practical alternatives ("good enough" or "better bang for the buck"), and I welcome those thoughts--the confusion will help delay me until I come to my senses. but right now I am ready to jump.

[Stephen Cherry]

I would get the Lie Nielsen because they will come ready to use. I have pfeil, and they are good tools, but tool a long, long time to flatten the backs. I've seen the LN, and they would be good to go in 10 minutes or less.

[Jonathan Spool]

My AI Mk 2s didn't require much flattening. Basically just some honing. I beat on my Marples so I couldn't attest to how well they hold up to extreme usage, but for general and fine work they are great.
I think the LN chisels will hold up better under heavier use than I require.

[Matt Winterowd]

I don't think so. I love my AI chisels. I've never really worked with the LN chisels, but I've played around with them at stores, and the handles feel a little to long and thin for my hands. Once you're amongst the premium tool makers, I think that the quality of the steel and need for preparation are pretty comparable.

[Casey Gooding]

I have both sets of chisels. They both have their advantages. Honestly, I think both sets are worth the price tag.

[Joel Goodman]

I have the older AI from TWW and other than the handles being a little large -- which the Mark 2 version fixes -- they are great. They flattened really fast. I haven't used the LNs but have never bought anything there that wasn't first rate. You have a dilemma but neither is a mistake. The issue is perhaps whether you prefer a tang or socket chisel.

[Michael MacDonald]

thanks... sounds like I can't go wrong either way. Does the socket chisel have a different feel when you strike it. Has anyone been annoyed by the LN handles frequently coming loose because they are socket and not tang? I assume my chisels are tang... with a plastic handle, not wood.

[Kent A Bathurst]

FWIW - Sep/Oct 2008 FWW did a review of couple dozen brands. Bullet points specific to the points you raise include:
> LN rated Best Overall for western-style
> AI did well also - I'm not familiar with them at all - the "AI" was rated better than the "AI-American" which look to be the shorter length set - assume you know what the defference is.
> Howwever - both AI were rated Very Good for edge retention, while the LN were Good. The Irwin successor to Marples was pretty much G across-the-board, incl edge retention.
> There were no western style rated Excellent for edge retention, so VG is the top rating in that group [3 of 5 japanese style were excellent on edge retention].

Not making any point on the brands, nor on FWW's test and conclusions - just passing the info along.

[Joel Moskowitz]

If money is not a major issue buy what fits your hand best. Every other criteria is less important.

[lowell holmes]

I have 1/4" and 3/8" mortise chisels from each company. I would not want to give up any of them.

They do have a different feel and they work differently.

I consider the LN to be sash chisels. They do well in softer wood. They feel good in my hand. Chris Becksvoort drills the mortice and then using the LN chisels, cleans the sides of the mortise instantly by placing the chisel at one end of their mortise and levering it to the other end of the mortise.

The Iles are trapezoidal (sp?) in cross section and tend to stay inside the lines better. You can really whack them and they will do fine. They do not roll off of the bench.

[David Weaver]

If they are all purpose chisels, just don't get the A2 LNs. If they are whack-it-hard-with-a-mallet types, then it won't matter.

I don't probably have the set of iles chisels you're looking at but I have the big set of boxwood handled london pattern chisels, and they generally don't hold an edge as long as the LNs at higher angles, but they hold it plenty long and they sharpen well on anything. If you put the LN A2s at 25 degrees and the iles chisels at 25 degrees, i would bet the LN's edge holding ability would go away (recall FWW did a chisel test several years ago and changed the honing of the chisels from 25 degrees to 30 to make the test "fair". Forget that, fair would've been at an angle that people use for multiple tasks, like 25).

I also wouldn't be surprised if the edge holding of the LN and AI O1 chisels was almost identical, especially if they arrive at your door the same hardness. That toughness on the A2 chisels is nice for hard mallet work, but it just isn't worth the compromises because you really won't ever be doing that kind of stuff if you're building furniture and not mortising planes out of billets (and if you do that, you'll quickly want a longer heavier chisel, anyway).

Anyway, i am guilty of having bought chisels based on whether they'll hold their edge a ridiculously long time, but in the end, good enough is good enough, and something that holds an edge x% longer isn't worth worrying about, because it's not like you have to pay someone to sharpen them.

So, same as joel says, buy whichever one you like the feel of. Both are good chisels.

btw, my boxwood handled chisels also take very little time to set up, they are ever so slightly on the back toward the edge so that the business end of the chisel hits the flattening stone first, and they are already very close to flat.

[David Weaver]

Not making any point on the brands, nor on FWW's test and conclusions - just passing the info along.

Yeah, every time they do a test, it starts more argument about the test than benefit in providing the results.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Again, what Joel says! I have some of each and I find the AI to hold their edge as well as the LN. My daughter bought me some Narex a year or two ago, and they also retain their edge well.

The LN are patterned after the Stanley 750 and fit my hand well. The first AI I bought were large, but I simply chucked them in my lathe (blade into the spindle bore) and made my adjustments to fit my hands. I had to do the same to the Narex. I also have some AI butt chisels and one round back AI chisel: these are are everyday users. TFWW says the AI butt chisels were made to feel like the Stanley 750. They may not feel exactly like the 750, but I do like them! If your hands are medium size to medium-large, try one of the AI butt or round backs.

I also got a crap load of vintage, including many, many Witherby, 750's, 720's, Winchester and you name it.

[Terry Beadle]

I'd first recommend you go to a higher micro bevel on the Marples. They may be cheap but if you set them up to match the stock you are working with, they will do the job.

I have the AI London pattern chisels. I had to set them to a 35 degree micro bevel to keep the edge right. They've been set that way for a couple years now and really are a pleasure to use. I have no LN chisels but I bought one for my brother Steve and he says "Thanks!" I'd bet they are really nice but I doubt they are $130 nicer than the AI's. If you chisel a whole lot, then they would be worth it but if you are like most furniture makers, IMO the AI's will give great service for less bucks.

I also have the Narex and they are set up at 25 primary with 30 micro bevels. They are a really great value for the money and IMO out perform the Marples by far. Really take a great edge and keep it. For the money they are hard to beat for your daily pounders.

Another great economical choice is the japanese set from Grizzly. Very good quality for the money.

It's a wonderful chisel buying world we live in !

[Sean Hughto]

I think it's hard to generalize about fitting one's hand, as different tasks can require different grips. Also, I personally find the chisel's ability to take and hold an excellent edge as at least as important as ergonomics.

When I first started woodworking many years ago I was attracted to the Stanley everlasting chisels. After acquiring several I realized that they are not good for my pueposes because they are heavy and have a messed up balance due to all that metal in the handle. I found my 750s were much better for me. I then got some Swan, Witherby, Berg etc. sockets that were relatively similar in style to the 750s but seemed to have much better grades of steel as far as taking ane keeping keen edges. I remember urging LN to make chisels way before they ever launched any. I now have some of theirs and find them to be excellent, though frankly, if forced to choose to keep only one set, I'd keep my Swans. I don't have any AI bench chisels, though I have many other AI products (turning tools, scorp, etc.), and love them all. I have no doubt that the AI bench chisels are excellent.

[Rob Young]

Do you absolutely NEED all the sizes in the set? Can you get buy just buying say 1/2" and 1/4" individually? I say this because last I looked, there was no substantial savings on the LNs buying them as a set versus individually (shipping not withstanding). So you could make your best guess as to which you might like better then buy the one or two sizes most likely to be used from that manufacturer.

Later if you decide you want the entire set, buy the set. Worst thing that happens is you have an extra chisel in a couple of sizes. Now you can either have two set up the same way or maybe make one a 25 degree and the other a 35 degree microbevel for the rough stuff.

Also, increasing the bevel angle on my Irwin/Marples did the trick. I'm somewhere in the vicinity of 30 and they seems to hold well now.

[Tri Hoang]

I own boths at one time or another. Even at almost 2x the cost of the AI, I think the LNs are well worth it. A few really good chisels at the right sizes are much better than a set of mediocre ones.

[Sean Hughto]

A few really good chisels at the right sizes are much better than a set of mediocre ones.

This statement is a truism depending upon how you define "really good" and "mediocre." The OP's original question as i understood amount to whether whether AI is "good enough?" i.e., not mediocre in the sense of being inferior and giving poor results or being unpleasant to use. As with most any tool you can name, there is a range from unfit (think, Stanley 4 produced circa 1985) to adaquate and completely workable (think Stanley 4 produced circa 1920) to finely crafted heirloom quality that is very nice to own and use (think LN high angle 4) to rolls royce (think modern or antique infill smoothers). Once you get to adaquate, all the rest is just nice to have if your priority is making furniture. If your priority is amassing a set of fine tools as a collection or investment etc., you may have different guideposts. On this continuum, AI chisels are surely far more than merely adequate. Deciding to get AI chisels is not the same as deciding to buy something mediocre by any means.

[Jon Toebbe]

I have the Ashley Iles MkIIs and absolutely love them -- they're a huge step up from the Marples I started out with. As others have said, they were easy to setup since their backs (faces? the flat side) were slightly hollow. Their edge retention at 25 degrees is excellent in the softwoods and N. American hardwoods that I've worked with. They fit my hands beautifully. This last point is the most important, I think.

I'd get one of each in a useful size for your work and compare them side-by-side. Maybe two different (but not too different) sizes -- 1/4in and 3/8in, maybe. That way, when you decide that they're both lovely and you want to keep them both, you won't have a duplicate size. :)

[John Coloccia]

Re: mediocre and everything else
Keep in mind this is just my opinion. While my LN are by far my favorite for dovetails and general chop to a line kinds of tasks, they are easily my least favorite general purpose chisel though they are an excellent general purpose chisel also. For everyday kinds of tasks, I'm always grabbing my Pfiels, my new Taylors or a Japanese chisel.

This is a personal thing but I probably wouldn't buy a set of LN if I had it to do again. I would buy a set of something else, and add a couple LN for dovetailing. For me, that would mean a set of AI, Henry Taylor, Narex, Pfiel and maybe Two Cherries. Of those, my opinion is that AI and Pfiel are the nicest bench chisels, and Narex is probably the best valued bench chisel available and is still very nice. The others are also nice and it's a matter of preference.

Again, that's just my opinion on what's easily available today.

[Bob Jones]

I have a 1/4 in and a 3/4 in AI. No set. They were super fast to sharpen and flatten. They hold an edge much better than my two cherries or my set from traditional woodworker. I like them very much for dovetailing, which is all I have used them for. The 1/4 in does flex a bit when paring down to my baseline, so don'tet that surprise you.

I also hope to buy a 1/4 in LN one day soon. I would like to use it at a 30 deg bevel for chopping and keep my AI at a 25 deg bevel for paring. Keep in mind that I know nothing, but I love to justify buying more tools!

[lowell holmes]

This string reminds me of the Ford VS Chevy discussions of my youth. :)

IMO, you can't go wrong with either.

[lowell holmes]

I was confusing the Ashley Iles chisels with the Ray Iles mortise chisles that I have. I have no opinion about the AI chisels since I don't have any.

My comments stand for the Ray Iles chisels.

[John Sanford]

This string reminds me of the Ford VS Chevy discussions of my youth. :)

IMO, you can't go wrong with either.

You soytanly can if Mopar runs through your DNA. Or Matsamura. ;)

[Tri Hoang]

This statement is a truism depending upon how you define "really good" and "mediocre.

I had a few of these (MK II) and here is why I think they were mediocre:

1. Long prep time to flatten the backs...on par with the old footprints that I had
2. The sides are extremely thin, enough to give nasty cuts once the back is flatten.
3. Not feeling very rigid in my hands due to thin blades on the smaller ones
4. Edge retention was poorer than my cheap footprint 465 wood handle chisels (on the 1/4" and 1/2" that I've tested against various stock that I had)
5. Random widths - none was accurate as quoted (not even metric)

There are good points about these but I decided to send them back.

[Sean Hughto]

Wow, pretty scathing. I defer to you as I have never used any of these particular chisels myself and was judging their likely quality based upon several other Ray and Ashley Iles tools I have. I love the pigstickers and my turning tools for example, not to mention some carving tools a scorp and a froe.

And fwiw, I see many critiques of chisels complaining that the tools are too thick and therefore unsuited for things like paring dovetails. Funny you should find these too thin. Poor manufacturers trying to please us goldilocks.

[george wilson]

I agree with John C.,except that I have no Japanese chisels. Just could never get with using them. I like my Pfiels,and my OLD 1965-66 Marples are just fine,too. I THINK they were made from 01. No telling what they are made from now,or how they are tempered these days.

[Jim Koepke]

Not having used either my comments are only my opinion about chisels in general.

My preference is for socket chisels. It is easier to make a different handle for them if you want extra or just different handles.

My choice is to also have different chisels for different uses and to have multiple chisels in places where a lot of work is done.

The AI look to be great paring chisels, but not the best for heavy mallet work. The LN A2 chisels look like they may be better at the heavy work. That is exactly why my set includes more than one type of most sizes.

The most modern chisels I have are mostly used for the tough jobs out in the field where I wouldn't want to use a "good" chisel. These are some Stanley, Marples, Sandvik (now Bocho) and a few others picked up here and there.

My most used chisels in the shop are my:

Buck Brothers one set for pairing and then some firmer chisels for striking hard.

Some Witherby chisels for a bit heavier work.

Various other makes for all around work.

Chisel sizes in my set that are in multiples include 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and 1". I keep looking for more in the 3/8" size, but haven't pursued a real diligent search for this size.

jtk

[Rick Erickson]

Buy the best you can afford. IMO the LN are superior to the AIs. If you can afford the LNs then get those. If not get the AIs. Also, you don't have to buy an entire set. Only buy what you frequently use. I have the entire set of LNs and use the 1/4" and 1/2" 80% of the time. More that matter, I have two sets of LNs 1/4" and 1/2". I keep two at 25-degrees and two at 17-degrees. If you already have backup chisels keep that set and buy your heavy users in the LNs.

[Robert Culver]

I have had ny A/I set for a year now im really happy with them. The thing that is most inportant to mention here is that the first couple of sharonings will dull fast with mallet work but once you sharpen them a few times it will be fine and the will hold a razor sharp edge for quite a little while. I love them for pairing dove tails I have the veritas detail chisles and these are awsome to but I have aproblem swaping out tools the A/I do a fine job without having to switch. I have considered the lie nielson for smacking down through tough woods like hard maple and hickory just really dont think its nessasary I use a wood is good mallet not a steal hammer Iwouldnt recomend that with either chisle anyway. thats just my 2 cents on them anyway.

[lowell holmes]

I chopped two 1" square through mortises today in 1 1/8" thick cherry with a 1" LN bench chisel. It was sharp when I started and when I finished. It has enough steel in it to comfortably do the job. My blue handles or my Stanley 750's would have done the job, but the edge would not have held up. From the comments made here, the AI would have handled the job as well. I have not seen the Ai chisels, but I would not hesitate to buy them if I had a need.