20" bandsaws

[David Hawxhurst]

which 20" or bigger bandsaw to get?
felder fb 600
aggazzani b20
these two are currently with in $200 of each other. not interested in laguna and the mm20 is more than i want to spend. if i'm going to spend the money for the mm20 i would probably go with the aggi b20/20.

min. requirements for re-saw is 12" or more to match my joiner/planar capabilities.
most of the lumber i get reguarly is less than 12". just wondering if having 18-20" of re-saw capability is worth the extra money.

i know the fb 600 is a has larger wheels and table and a few inches more re-saw just can't decide which will be the better saw. i think i would be happy with either.

[Van Huskey]

If not the MM20 then the B20.

I would say that I think the best buy in that price area is the B24, lots of throat room, solid amount of resaw (though a traditional amount not current resaw mania), strong motor and Jesse to order from.

[David Hawxhurst]

Van,
Why the mm20 over the b20? i would think the b20/20 would more comparable to the mm20. at this level of saw is one really that different then the other. as best i can tell it seems the electronics and motors would be the main differences.

[Tom Cross]

I have Agazzani B20 from Jesse at Eagle Tools in LA. I looked at MM20 and used the MM20 for 30 minutes. The Agazzani is much better in my opinion. First, Jesse sets up and tunes every machine before he ships it so no tuning was required when I received it. He even puts on a power cord to any length you want. Second, Jesse makes a custom crate out of 3/8" plywood and 2x4s. That crate will protect from any abuse the truckers put it to. Third, it is a very smooth machine without any vibration I can notice. Fourth, the two position fence is so easy to use for both ripping and resawing. Fifth, with a 1" resaw blade, i get no blade drift at all. I set the fence and rip or resaw without having to worry about blade drift. Sixth, the new Euro Guides have no lock nuts. They are machined so well that I adjust them and done, never have to touch them again until I change blade size. Seventh, the table has a true trunnion so the blade stays centered in the slot when the table is angled, not true with others such as MM. Eighth, the B20 can use a 1/4" blade by only adjusting the Euro Guides. On the MM20 I used, the guard had to be cut and the guides had to have a special fix to use a 1/4" blade, a big pain. Ninth, the base has threaded holes to simply screw in lift casters and it is so mobile then set in place by adjusting casters. The lift mechanism on the MM20 was way too hard to use. Tenth, the blade tension gauge is right on, not so with many bandsaws. As you can see, I love the B20.

[Van Huskey]

Van,
Why the mm20 over the b20? i would think the b20/20 would more comparable to the mm20. at this level of saw is one really that different then the other. as best i can tell it seems the electronics and motors would be the main differences.

You were asking about 20" saws in a general sense with your title and then more specifically Felder vs Agazzani specifically.

The MM20 is simply the best and heaviest built 20" wood cutting bandsaw sold in America that I am aware of. I was leaning toward the Agazanni line until I lucked into a basically new MM20. I had not considered the MM20 as I wanted to keep cost a little lower (thus my B24 comment as I think it is the best value in 3000-4000 Italians) when I started going through the MM20 I realized why people love them so much. The Agazzani is an EXCELLENT saw but I would pick the MM20 over the B-20 or B20/20.

I have yet to use the new Felder but nothing I have seen just looking and feeling it would make me take a chance over the proven Italian saws.

Chances are you would be happy with any of the big 4 (Laguna, MM, Agazzani or Felder) but they aren't exactly clones and each has its own character.

[Van Huskey]

I have Agazzani B20 from Jesse at Eagle Tools in LA. I looked at MM20 and used the MM20 for 30 minutes. The Agazzani is much better in my opinion. First, Jesse sets up and tunes every machine before he ships it so no tuning was required when I received it. He even puts on a power cord to any length you want. Second, Jesse makes a custom crate out of 3/8" plywood and 2x4s. That crate will protect from any abuse the truckers put it to. Third, it is a very smooth machine without any vibration I can notice. Fourth, the two position fence is so easy to use for both ripping and resawing. Fifth, with a 1" resaw blade, i get no blade drift at all. I set the fence and rip or resaw without having to worry about blade drift. Sixth, the new Euro Guides have no lock nuts. They are machined so well that I adjust them and done, never have to touch them again until I change blade size. Seventh, the table has a true trunnion so the blade stays centered in the slot when the table is angled, not true with others such as MM. Eighth, the B20 can use a 1/4" blade by only adjusting the Euro Guides. On the MM20 I used, the guard had to be cut and the guides had to have a special fix to use a 1/4" blade, a big pain. Ninth, the base has threaded holes to simply screw in lift casters and it is so mobile then set in place by adjusting casters. The lift mechanism on the MM20 was way too hard to use. Tenth, the blade tension gauge is right on, not so with many bandsaws. As you can see, I love the B20.

1. Being tuned is nice and Jesse does do a good job but tuning a bandsaw is an ongoing job but it does save you a few minutes out of the box, the cord is also nice and saves some time and a few bucks.

2. The crates are nice and shipping on the spine is nice, which I think MM does as well. In the end you don't hear of much shipping damage with any of the highend saws.

3. Everyone of the big 4 machines should be smooth as silk or something is amiss.

4. The Agazzani fence is better then the MM, but I think everyone should put on a Driftmaster

5. Contrary to myth blades drift not saws

6. You actually can do the same with all the current Euro guides, I can't think when I locked mine, but again Laguna has an advantage with their guides her also.

7. Not sure what you mean by true trunnion but the Agazzani does have a centered trunnion which does help with tilted work. I must say I haven't done anything to tilt that table, I use a smaller saw for dovetails, cones etc.

8. I had a 3/16" blade on my MM20 last week and no such issues. I also have used 1/8"-1/4" blades with the Carter stabilizer with no issues, other than tracking the 1/8" blade takes finesse on any large flat wheel.

9. The MM20 also has the threaded holes like most other large saws, mine had Zambus casters on it when I bout it but I moved back to the Johnson bar which works better for me because I only move the saw in a straight line on a flat floor, if not the casters are the cats meow but fit all the big saws.

10. NO tension gauge can be correct for all blades, period. Bi-metal and carbide tipped blades take 25,000 psi vs 15,000 for carbon and this doesn't take into account backer thickness. Bottom line there is NO bandsaw tension gauge that works off absolute tension (like all of these saws) that can be any more than a reference.


In the end you are hard pressed to go wrong with any of the Italian 3, each one has its strengths and weaknesses. On pure heft the MM wins, on specialized well thought out niche engineering the Laguna wins, on CS and no mis-steps though out the Agazzani wins.

I still say the B-24 is the best value. Lots of resaw height, strong motor big wheels and by virtue of not being the heavier resaw weight like the 20/20 and 24/24 (it is the lighter line like the B-20) it comes in at a very pleasing price.

[Charles McKinley]

You don't say where you are but there are 2 saws that meet your requirements over in the for sale forum here. The MM24 is sweet. I remember when Paul got it.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?157070-MiniMax-MM24-Bandsaw

He has a link in the post to the post when he just got it set up.

[Stephen Cherry]

just wondering if having 18-20" of re-saw capability is worth the extra money.



I guess cutting up an 18" log for turining would be managable, but it seems to me that cutting up big lumber would require special equipment due to it's weight. It seems to me that general purpose bandsaws had similar wheel to height ratios for a long, long time; then some of these super tall machines were marketed. I'm just wondering how much of this is marketing to capture sales from people who are buying by the numbers. For example, when I bought my bandsaw, I had never seriously used a bandsaw before, so the only thing I had to go by is the specifications of the machines.

In any case, I've got an agazzani 24, and it is a fine saw. cuts whatever is in it's way without any weirdness. I've seen the felder saws, and they look to be comparable in quality. I have a felder sliding saw, and can tell you, they make great tools, and their service is exemplary.

[Frank Drew]

min. requirements for re-saw is 12" or more to match my joiner/planar capabilities.
most of the lumber i get reguarly is less than 12". just wondering if having 18-20" of re-saw capability is worth the extra money.

How much extra $ are you talking about? FWIW, in 25+ years custom furniture making I used lumber that wide from time to time but never thought about resawing lumber that wide, or had occasion to. In my own work, I used my band saw almost exclusively for cutting curves.

But hypothetically, let's say I'd found some really attractive wide boards that were 10/4 or even 12/4 thick, being able to resaw them (or have them resawn) for matched table boards or perhaps door panels would have been nice -- it would have been an insane waste to have planed them down to finish thickness, and keeping nice stuff wide would have been a much better use than ripping them for leg stock.

[bob hertle]

Van,

I believe he means that the aggi table has it's center of rotation located at the intersection of the blade c/l, and the table surface--the advantage of a true trunnion. I don't know for sure about the MM20 but the MM16 requires you to remove the throat plate in order to do any sort of significant table tilt. (center of rotation below table surface) This would be a deal breaker for me cuz I'm always tilting my table. I do agree that the MM bandsaws are probably the heaviest built commercially available woodworking saws available her in the U.S.

Regards
Bob

[Mike Hollingsworth]

Jesse sold me a set of the new Aggazzani guides for my MM24.

[Van Huskey]

Van,

I believe he means that the aggi table has it's center of rotation located at the intersection of the blade c/l, and the table surface--the advantage of a true trunnion. I don't know for sure about the MM20 but the MM16 requires you to remove the throat plate in order to do any sort of significant table tilt. (center of rotation below table surface) This would be a deal breaker for me cuz I'm always tilting my table. I do agree that the MM bandsaws are probably the heaviest built commercially available woodworking saws available her in the U.S.

Regards
Bob

I understood he meant a centered trunnion (and no the MM20 doesn't have one). I just have never heard it called a "true" trunnion. As I understand the definition of trunnion all these saws have a true trunnion. Just a semantics things but if there is a legitimate reason to call it true I would like to know. The MM does have an interesting trunnion assembly which has the least friction of any I have used one could even argue there is not enough friction. But it is to the left of centerline with the blade. If one does a lot of table tilted cuts and doesn't want to make a bunch of ZCIs than this is a disadvantage.

I think the key is all of these saws are great it is similar to discussion the merits of Ferrari and Lamborghini they both are Italian and both are great but there are few people that consider them equal. I want to make it clear there is not one of the saws made by any of the Italians 3 plus Felder (they are beginning to build their own saws not subbing them to ACM as in the past) that I wouldn't be happy having in my shop beyond that it is pretty much different flavors of ice cream, with only economics left, thats why I am so big on the B-24. I suppose if I had to characterize them I would say the MM is the best resaw machine, Laguna the best multipurpose saw and the Agazzani is in the middle with a leaning a little to the resaw side. I can't really place the Felder since I have only looked over it and never operated one.

[Mike Gottlieb]

Everything outlined by Tom Cross goes double for me. I recently purchased an Agazzani B20/20 from Jesse at Eagle Tools and couldn't be more pleased. A wonderful tool and service in all respects.

[David Hawxhurst]

enlight of some new funding the mm20 is now with in my price range. it seems the mm20 would be the one to get. so it comes down to the aggi b24, aggi b20/20 or the mm20. leaning towards the mm20 at this point.

[Van Huskey]

At this point it gets a little more interesting between the Felder and Agazzani the decision was reasonably easy now it becones a little more difficult. One of the keys for me between the 3 saws would be whether this will be a dedicated resaw machine with another BS in the shop or will it be a multi-purpose machine used for resawing and countour cutting. If the latter do you have any idea of the percentage of each you would be doing.

[David Hawxhurst]

this will be the only bandsaw in the shop. it will be doing both re-sawing and contouring as well as general ripping and such. as time progress would like to do most of my cutting on the bandsaw and minimize the use of the table saw. end goals are to buy thicker wood and re-saw to thickness needed and do all ripping, sizing and contours on it. not sure as to how this would breakdown in percentages but i would guess about 50% re-sawing or higher if you include ripping and sizing operations.

[Van Huskey]

The higher the percentage of resaw/ripping the more I lean to the MM it is just a stouter saw for these operations. You may want to watch the MM 16 video if you haven't, it gives a good look at the MM line:

http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php?option=com_seyret&Itemid=36&task=videodirectlink&id=8


For a saw that will see lots of blade changes and used for resaw and contour cutting I would get the B-24 and put on Laguna guides and get a Carter Stabilizer. This would give what I would consider about the best all-rounder for a hobby shop. This assumes you are comfortable with changing long bands, but that will be par for the course with any of these machines.

[David Hawxhurst]

watched the video its pretty impressive. so is it easier to change blades on the b24 than the mm20? i really like both and i'm sure i'd be happy with either. still have some time before ordering.

[Van Huskey]

watched the video its pretty impressive. so is it easier to change blades on the b24 than the mm20? i really like both and i'm sure i'd be happy with either. still have some time before ordering.

The B-24 has one distinct advantage for blade changing, the split fence rail, more of an issue changing out wide blades. I mentioned adding Laguna guides and the Carter stabilizer since this gives you the best guides for blades from 1/8" to the capacity of the saw. Nothing wrong with the Euro guides but the extra support of the Laguna guides make sub 1/2" blades sing. The stabilizer is great for tight contours with narrow blades.

If I hadn't gotten the deal on a MM20 I would have the B-24 as ~17" of resaw is plenty for me. Ever tried to cut 20" veneer??? That said I am glad I ended up with the MM20 since it is a dedicated resaw machine for me and I appreciate the extra heft and triple boxed spine.

In the end there is very little the three saws you are considering won't do well, and better than just about every saw on the market but each has its advantages and disadvantages. I could actually take parts from a Laguna LT20, a Agazzani B-20, a MM 20 and a PM1800 then dip into the Laguna accessory/blade department with a dash of Carter and make the "perfect" saw for me but alas every single one of them is a compromise (for me) as they sit.

[David Hawxhurst]

test drove the fb 600 today. quite a nice saw. it has the split rails similar to the aggi to make blade changes a little easier. during the test i got the chance to square up a piece of lumber and cut a couple of veneers that where about 8". the blade was a junk blade that was on the dull side but had now problems cutting the veneers or any of the other sizing cuts i made. bet that it cuts really nice with a real blade.

felder is about 150 mi from me so i'm thinking that i might have slightly better customer service since there are definitely the closest. while talking with Mark Duginske said get the felder because they are so close. he also said that if he closed his eyes he could tell which bandsaw he was cutting with.

the owner stated he would not attempt to re-saw anything much bigger than 15" or so because it would very difficult.

the only real draw back to the fb 600 is the table will only tilt about 20 degrees. knowing this ahead of time i would just use a jig for the angle needed. not sure that i would miss the 45 table tilt ability of the b24 or mm20.

[Van Huskey]

Does the Felder ONLY tilt 20 deg or does it only show 20 deg on the scale. I have heard both things. If I only had one general use bandsaw I would NOT get one that had a table tilt of less than 45 deg. For a ripping/resaw machine not an issue but the concept of having a saw that wouldn't tilt 45 deg when there are equal or better saws that do would drive me batty.

[David Hawxhurst]

its was marked out till 20, but didn't appear to have enough space to go to a full 45. i'll have to double check this on monday.

[Wes Grass]

Re FB-600, the table is marked to 22.5°. Not sure it will go quite that far, but the one time I tried it to see I didn't realize the trunnion 'walks' a little; so a little shake and it may have got all the way there. Same issue setting it back down; drop it to the stop and tighten it up and it will lift up a bit. A yank on the right end before tightening solves that. May break in if I angled it several times. I don't have much interest in angling it anyway, but who knows what tomorrow brings.

There is no assist to lifting the table, and it's *very* heavy (170lbs. I needed an engine hoist to install it). So it's a bit of a wrestling match holding it up where you want it with the rack/pinion while tightening it.

I think they limited the travel of this to get the table height down, to make deep resaw easier. Look at the table height of the big Lagunas, for example. I don't know how I'd lift a big piece that high.

There's also no provision in the fence for drift adjustment, other than to put shims between the rail and casting. I may look into this somewhere down the road, or put on a driftmaster (or build my own ;-) ) I also preferred the Laguna guides. These seem to work just fine, although I think they're noisier.

[David Hawxhurst]

Wes,
the one i looked at yesterday had the drift adjustment incorporated in to the f-rail mounting rail. of course shim the fence works to. seems like a pain since each blade has it own drift and i'll be changing blades often.

what other saw did you consider before buying the fb 600? assuming that you looked at other what made you buy the felder?

[Wes Grass]

Price ... and it matches my other equipment ;-)

This replaced a Laguna LT-16HD. I considered a Felder from the start, but the saws they had available at the time, that did 16" resaw, were all 3 phase. The 640 would have almost made it, the 740 wouldn't fit under my ceiling.

I found right away the Laguna didn't have enough throat width for me. The table was way too small as well, which I fixed by adding rails for my Felder extension tables. Replacing it was a 'someday' thing and then Felder introduced the 600. Going with another Laguna would have meant doing the rails all over again, the hard part of which is drilling the table. Turns out the rails on this aren't exactly the same dimensions as the machined in rails on my saw, which makes the tables droop, so they'll have to be 'replaced' at some point anyway. That's the easy part since the table is already drilled. In fact, I already have the material in the shop.

I want to replace the guides. I liked the Lagunas, but the adjustment system can be improved. That'll be another project, after the rails and about 2 million other things I have lined up. And I'm sure I can gain a decent amount of resaw capacity in the process.

The Laguna had a couple annoying features as well. Like, not being able to remove the fence without either loosening the fence rail or removing the blade. Swinging it up, it would hit the blade tension gauge on the frame. I wound up shortening the casting so it would clear the guide rail mounting stud. And flipping the fence rail down to rip thin stock required realigning it ... which required measuring from the miter gauge slot. You couldn't eyeball it ... unless you removed the blade. Maybe after I modified the casting ...

The Felder is much easier. Loosen a clamp, lift the entire fence off. And, loosen a clamp, slide the fence rail off, flip it on it's side, slide it back on and tighten the clamp.

I'd be curious to see what they did to incorporate drift adjustment. And the miter gauge slot isn't 3/4", requiring 'something' to be modified to use other than the factory miter gauge.

[David Hawxhurst]

they are developing a new fence in austria that will adjust for blade drift. it will be sold as an accessory kinda like laguna sell the driftmaster separately or as an upgrade. the miter is metric (i don't now the measurements at this point). but overall i was pleased with the saw i was playing with. ran smooth and cut wood easily even though the blade really belonged in the trash (where it is going shortly).

[Peter Quinn]

I think the 20 degree tilt is due to some Euro regulations. Some makers make models specifically for the US market with the 45 degree tilt, apparently Felder does not? I have a 20" Meber and they list "20 degree tilt on CE saws, 45 degree for USA. Anyway a saw made for the EU market seems to be limited to 20 degree tilt, though it should have a stout mechanical break if I understand things. Do the Felders have a braking motor? I believe my Meber has a brake, but it doesn't stop in 4 seconds like the panel saws and shapers do these days.