old saw help and a hello all

[Fred Moody]

Hello everyone I am sort of new to wood working and am tryinh to get into working with handtools. Because I find it more fullfilling. If you ever have any Autocadd questions I can probably help you. But who needs a computer when you use antique tools?

My question is, I am trying to turn some of my great grandfathers wood working tools into users and I dont want to mess anything up that is valuable or doo any damage to the tools. I have a dovetail saw I would am trying to clean up marked (j. BIGGINS AND SONS, cast steel, Sheffield, warranted) and it appears to have the old style screws (with the screw poking throught the nut) that attach the handle. But one of the screws is broken in half and I dont have the nut anymore. Is there any way to replace these cheaply. or should I write it off as a antique non-user saw.

I appologize that I do not have a digital camera for picture.
And I have searched many place on the net for an answer including vintagesaws.com and many more websites.
thank you all for any reply and have a good day
Fred

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Fred...Welcome to the 'Creek! I'm sure one of our members can give you some advice about your saw!

[Jerry Crawford]

IMHO - restoring old tools
First, I'd have the saw exaluated by an reputable antique dealer. Alternativly, visit one who has or imports a lot of old tools from europe or the UK. If they will give you an opinon about the saw's value you'll have something to go on to make your decision; restor or auction

Next, it's unlikly you can find exact replacment parts commercially anywhere. However, you (I) often see saws like you describe in flea maket and antique stores going for a few dollars because they are badly damaged or just junky wall hangars. Buy one that has a few matching parts, carefully grind a screwdriver to match the slot in the part you want to remove and restore your saw. I've cobbled together a few planes that way. Be very careful how you remove old parts though, new tool marks on old tools are as obvious as duct tape on a Studebaker.

Finally, don't wire buff off the corrosion with a wire wheel on your grinder. That destroy's more valuable old tools than any other amature activity.

[Tom Scott]

Fred,
I'm sorry, but I don't know anything about your particular brand of saw. What type of saw is it...panel saw, back saw, etc.? I'm sure someone else will chime in with more info.

Regarding the broken screw. Those are called split nuts. You can try looking around for used ones (seems like I remember somebody here who said they were hording them), or you can buy a new one from Lie-Nielson for a few bucks.

Whatever you do, don't write it off as a non-user! At least not yet...not unless there is something REALLY wrong with it. You might be surprised to find out how nicely these old saws clean up and operate after a little TLC.

Tom

[Leif Hanson]

I don't know if it's the same, but there was an "S. Biggins and Sons" sawmakers working in Sheffield circa 1845 to 1860.

http://denali.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_id=101749&submit_thread=1#message

http://denali.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_id=38143&submit_thread=1#message

If you can find a split nut that matches off of another old saw, that's the way to go. Might be tough, though... It is possible you could braze the old screw back together and fashion a new nut out of some round brass stock if you had to... but in any case, I would restore it as gently as possible, and do as little as I could get away with to make the saw useable again.

As far as using it - if it is from the dates mentioned above, remember that the dates pre-date the civil war, which started 145 years ago. Any tools that have survived that long deserve a bit of respect, especially if they are in good shape. So while it might make a good user, in my opinion there are literally tons of saws around that you can use for your daily users that are probably better suited to withstand the daily abuse a workshop can dole out. So, while I think it should be made useable, it doesn't necessarily mean it should be used, at least on a regular basis (once in a while is fine, though). A collector might have a different opinion...

Just my thoughts on it...

Leif

[Fred Moody]

thank you everyone for the very prompt reply's. I will probably not touch the saw then and maybe oil it and put it away. I dont think I want to auction it since it has been in my family so long.
thank you all again.
Fred
Ps. sorry for the spelling and grammer mistakes I usually use a spell checker.

[Marc Hills]

Hi Fred:

I was going to recommend you cannablize an old saw like Jerry describes, except don't knock yourself out trying to find a matching part. Just get a screw and bolt pair that are the same size and fairly close in appearance, and swap out the "old" parts for the "new" ones. Save the original parts to maintain the tool's collector value.

But after considering Leif's post, I think he speaks considerable wisdom. If the saw is that old, better to clean it up with minimally invasive methods and let it inspire you while hanging on your shop wall. Pick another, less valuable clunker for your user.

[Ed Hardin]

If you have checked out the Vintagesaw website I think you have checked out the best. what they show in restoring makes a lot of sense to me. At worst you have some really great family history. BTW, Welcome. These guys are really helpful and great to hang out with.

[Wade McDonald]

Fred,

A friend of mine has a nice dovetail saw by Biggins and Sons- nice saw with a great handle! His is certainly a user, even though its in pretty good shape. Value would depend on blade and handle condition, would have to be near immaculate to be worth more than about $75, and its probably worth less than $50. If the handle has good horns and the blade doesn't have much pitting/no kinks, it's worth trying to fix it up. The only possible new source of a split nut and screw I know of is Lie Nielson, I've heard they will sell screws. Or get one from an old saw- but they need to match the head diameter very closely (i.e. new screw not bigger around than the current counterbore) and width approximately. If you're willing to adjust the counterbores (holes bored for split nut screw head /nut, then just about any saw screw/nut will do. Modern ones are easy to find, old ones can be scavenged. I might have a spare if you ask. Long ago I "made" one - took a brass nut and round headed machine screw (#10), the round head fit in the counterbore, and I filed a slot in the nut to make it easy to tighten- works great. Keeps you from having to mess with the counterbores, so might be advisable in this case.

IMHO this has a more comfortable handle than even the fancy ones made today, though the fancy new ones are good enough.

I have a keyhole Biggins and Sons saw with an almost identical handle, though the blade is a bit dubious. I've seen enough by Biggins and Sons that I'm not sure I'd agree to an 1860 ending date, though it could be later ones have a slightly different marking. I'll try to check Roberts. FWIW 150 year old English tools don't have the same value added as 150 year old American tools.

Wade

[Jerry Crawford]

This string got me to thinking about the history of saws. At the moment I'm enamored of making a special set of bow saws but I was wondering when the trasition from wood frame bow saws to stiff steel bladed hand saws began? Anyone have some thoughts on this?

Just off the top of my head, and since there is more steel in a hand saw, my sense is the advent of steel hand saws began along with the development of economic steel manufacturing (an era I can't drag out of my memory at themoment). Mister Moody has a saw that was his great grandfathers so I'm guessing it's dating 1920's or so. That was the heyday of neanderhand tool evolution and the begining of the demise of wood saws? Discussion?

[Marc Hills]

Jerry:

An interesting question. At least with the bow/frame saw vs steel saw distinction, I actually think historically is has been more of a cultural distinction than a technological one.

Continental European woodworkers have traditionally favored (and I guess to some extent still do) the bow/frame saws, whereas American woodworkers seem more entrenched in the steel handsaw camp. I'm not as sure of this, but I think we colonials may have gotten this preference from the English, who also favor this variety.

So that begs the question, what is it about our heritage/cultural outlook/physical environment that led our continental cousins to prefer frame saws and us to favor the other variety? And if I'm correct about the British, is it the English Channel, cultural obstinence or something else that makes them different from their neighbors in their saw preference?

[Leif Hanson]

The best quality hand saws were manufactured from 1860 through 1920, IMO.

The advent of good quality, mass producible steel is one of the underpinnings of the industrial revolution, and coincides with the appearance and subsequent popularity, then the later downfall, of handsaws. The timing goes back further than the 1920's - I've seen photos of handsaws made in the late 1700's. The heyday of hand tools stretches from the beginning of the industrial revolution, which started in earnest sometime in the early 19th century and ends for all purposes sometime shortly after WWII. At least for North America and European countries. It's really just getting going in rural China, and hasn't even started in some parts of the world.

Most of the large companies we now know and love, including Disston and Stanley, got their start somewhere between the 1840's and the 1860's.... You also notice a large number of wooden planemakers from this time, and they were supplanted completely by metal plane manufacturers by the 1920's.

As to bow saws vs. full size hand saws - I think it has as much to do with simple geography as it does with cultural differences (not that you rule those out). You have to remember that industrial production was a lot more local then than it is now. Good quality steel was more expensive, and so was transporting it. Thus, it was cheaper nearer to industrial centers, such as the iron belt here in the States, or Sheffield in England, or Ekstiluna, Sweden, or other such locales where entrepeneurs started iron works companies and a lot of the manufacturing took place - which by necessity, was closer to where the ore was mined. Out in the countryside, good quality steel was less affordable, so the reduced size of the blade in a bow saw was more attractive to the local craftsmen.

It's my belief that is one reason you see laminated construction of chisel blades in Japan - the good quality steel was harder to come by, so they ingeniously welded it to lower quality steel in order to make it more economical.

Here's some interesting links on the history of steel:

http://www.davistownmuseum.org/TDMtoolHistory.htm

http://www.davistownmuseum.org/guideMetallurgy.htm

http://www.appaltree.net/aba/iron.htm

http://www.topforge.co.uk/Processes.htm

http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/h-carnegie-steel.htm

My .02 cents, anyway.

Leif

[Ted Shrader]

Hi Fred -

Welcome to the Creek. Lots of knowledgeable folks here to help out and exchange ideas with. AutoCad questions do come up, so keep your eyes open.

Welcome,
Ted

[Nate Heffter]

http://www.fine-tools.com/fuchs.htm

scroll down to the bottom. Though it's a foreign site, this at least gives some specs on nut sizes

[Fred Moody]

thank you nate. I will see if those will work after work.