My life as a infill maker is over

[Leigh Betsch]

:confused:
Can anyone tell me if silver soldering infill plane dovetails is a viable option? I just pooched the dovetail peening and will have to start over, and I"m looking for a different method to secure the dovetails. I machined my dovetails (sorry I ain't much of a filer), I had a perfect sliding fit, maybe .002 clearance per side. It really hurt to start to bang on this perfection with a hammer but I did, and I screwed it up. Chipped the brass and bent the steel sole.

Or maybe I should quit all this monkey business and go to the LN website!

[Brian Kent]

Leigh, do you know what alloy of brass and steel you used. The metallurgists on the Creek might help.

[Leigh Betsch]

I'm not sure. I bought it a few years ago for another project. I suspect it is 1/2 or 3/4 hard which is probably why it didn't peen well. Or it could be that I cut 45 degree dovtail and filed a deep undercut so I had to move too much material by peening.

[Brian Kent]

For those in the know, what kind of steel and brass do you recommend for this application. I don't know the metals but I have always gotten good advice here.

[David Weaver]

You're career is not over....you just need to get the right metal.

try mild steel on mild steel since you have a mill. You can mill it and then lap it to a shine, nobody will know it's the cheap stuff and it peins really well.

You can blow the money on brass once you have one under your belt. Good brass will work with no issue. The shepherd panel kit I had didn't have any chipping or cracking in the brass anywhere on when I peined it. Stray strikes are the only thing you have to watch out for, but the quality of the peining itself will be cake if you've milled them that close.

[george wilson]

Mild steel is not necessarily the cheap stuff. The old planes were made from wrought iron,then mild steel. You can buy "low carbon" flat stock from MSC,Enco,and probably Victor Machinery Exchange. It costs as much as 01 because you are paying for the grinding. I have used heavy gauge black iron about 3/16" thick,which I could find around the maintenance area at work in the sheet metal or blacksmith shop. I wouldn't worry about having ground stock anyway,because you will end up resurfacing it after you peen the dovetails and have to file it down.

Mild steel or black iron won't work harden or chip as readily as 01. It will make a plane which won't break when you drop,which was the goal of the original makers over cast iron planes.

[Zander Kale]

Silver solder (hard or soft) works great for dovetails or finger joints. I have done most of these combinations with steel, stainless steel and brass. Soft silver tarnishes kinda ugly so try to make the joint small. Also, if you use a acid flux with soft, it is hard to completely remove and really promotes rust (George Wilson recommended boiling in water + baking soda and that seems to work well).

[Johnny Kleso]

Leigh you pretty much have to file some of the dovetail and most folks use 7º not 45º

Read all the info at Jim Yehle's site.. He has the best info I know of..
http://www.xmission.com/~jry/

You can't be in a hurry to peen the tails my friend who helps Karl Holtey says they do one tap per tail down one side and up the next over and over..
Some say a little heat helps the metal move..
Naval Brass is what the best makers use..
You need very good stuffing for peening and some band saw blades to protect the sole is also good..
You might want to use a custom punch to peen tails and not a hammer or at least a tiny ball peen being hit by a larger..
I think Ian said Karl uses punches or he has a press to peen them over..

How many test pieces have you tried?
How many practice dovetails in wood did you need ?
Your not done just getting started..

[David Weaver]

Ideal steel and brass to use together (to me) would be naval brass and mild steel. Like george says, you don't need precision milled mild steel - the hot rolled stuff is fine, it's smooth enough.

Steel on steel is my favorite way to go without metalworking power tools, but it's more physical work. For steel on steel, I use O1, but I know some other people will use mild still also for that. I have not tried brass with O1, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the dovetails end up a lot neater if the materials are closer in hardness, and O1 doesn't work similar to brass.

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Leigh,

Stick at it, every failure is one more learning experience.

Alloy 260 is the stuff you want. Use the wrong brass alloy and you'll chip and crack it trying to peen it every time.
Peter McBride's website is the best one I've come across, lot's of good practical advice.
http://www.petermcbride.com/planemaking/bench_rebate1.htm

Not wishing to miss the chance for a "drive-by gloat" this is a spiers inspired coffin sided smoother that I did a
couple of years ago. Walnut infill, couldn't have done it without a lot of help from Peter..
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/CoffinSmootherGlamor2.jpg

That's a temporary blade in there, I eventually made a proper blade from 1/4" 01.

Regards
Ray

[David Weaver]

That's a nice tidy plane, Ray.

[Leigh Betsch]

Thanks for the encouragement. I think I'll have to get some different brass and go to mild steel if I try to peen another. I'm thinking maybe I should go to a sliding dovetail running the length instead of peening side plates on. I've got a few ideas kicking around in my head, I imagine that there are others that have attempted similar concepts. I need to do a bit of Internet research to see if or how others have used a sliding dovetail.

[David Weaver]

I can't really say anything other than to suggest you stick with peined dovetails unless you complete a set and decide you don't like them. It really is worth the effort, and you'll find they're easy to pein if you're using the right materials, everything is set up right, filed close and the plane is fitted on a good peining block. No offense to any of the current makers, but anything that isn't a dovetail on an infill plane looks like a shortcut to me, a labor reducer of sorts. The only possible exception I can think of is what Holtey does, because everything he does is incredibly labor intensive, but even so, I don't like the looks of the planes that don't have dovetails.

Really the biggest danger is errant strikes, but you can lap or mill those out when you're done. The peining itself works very easily with mild steel or the right brass. it's a very physical effort with thicker O1, but it still works well.

There are only three files that I have used on four planes so far (except for draw filing, but i mean three files with regard to accurate work) - an 8" bastard file with the edges ground off to be safe, a good quality 3/8" swiss cut pillar file, and a fairly large (maybe 6") swiss pattern barette file. If the work is marked well with a metal scribe, you can put the pieces in your mill and remove most of the waste and file to the line very easily.

The dirty secret is that you can make some really nice planes (if you can find the wood) with really very little $$ in special tools. Those three files and a metal scribe, i think, are the only out of the ordinary tools that I've used, and I know you have a lot more metalworking stuff in your shop than I do and could eliminate some of the labor I dumb my way through in mine.

[Frank Drew]

Stick with it, Leigh; as Ray says, there are no failures, just more data :D.

And Ray, very nice work!

[george wilson]

Actually,I have used cold rolled as the finish is smoother,and no crust to show between the surfaces where their edges show in a dovetail. I've never used precision ground stock in any plane I have made. Brass can only be had with a smooth,rolled surface anyway.

I recommend annealing the brass if it is chipping,or crumbling off. It is not necessary to quench the brass after heating it to red to anneal it. In fact,I recommend that you do not quench it. Just let it cool. Sometimes brass can crack when quenching,and quenching it does not make it any softer. I've only ever used 260 alloy,because it was readily available.

Are you using a 45º dovetail end mill in your milling machine? They only come in a few angles. You could use a regular dovetail cutter for a router,to get a more correct angle. Use a 1/2" shank one,and run and feed it slowly. I'd just use a HSS one. You could grind back the delicate hooked cutting edge just a bit,but the router bits are made just like endmills in their geometry. Compare a regular straight spiral endmill and a HSS router dovetail cutter. The worst thing you could do is fail to clamp your metal well. It needs to be clamped close to the vise jaw,or on a strong,but not too tall angle plate so that it cannot vibrate during the cut. Dovetail cutters are the easiest type cutters to break,be they for metal or wood. Most guys cut away as much metal as possible with a straight endmill first,just using the dovetail cutter to mill the angle that is left.

Annealing the brass will make it a lot easier to peen. The 1/2 hard,or whatever % hard brass just depends upon how many times it has been rolled without annealing,not the alloy,when it comes to a brass like 260.

[David Weaver]

260 is "cartridge brass", right?

[David Weaver]

Actually,I have used cold rolled as the finish is smoother,and no crust to show between the surfaces where their edges show in a dovetail.

We po folk sand that off! By hand, even. :)

[Halgeir Wold]

"Naval brass" is a term I've never heard of in my neck of the woods......?
Anyone care to give some more spec's that I can use over here in Europe ?

[Wes Grass]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass

[David Weaver]

"Naval brass" is a term I've never heard of in my neck of the woods......?
Anyone care to give some more spec's that I can use over here in Europe ?

I believe the alloy number is 464 (i don't know whose standards that is), no lead in it. It is expensive stuff, expensive enough that I've never bought it in raw stock form. I know wayne anderson uses it and likes it.

[Halgeir Wold]

Thanks, both of you..... :-)

[Raney Nelson]

Just to offer an alternate view - I will never use mild steel in a plane again. It peens exceptionally well, but the two planes I made with it suffered from a LOT of distortion to the sole from peining. The time I saved in peining was more than made up for in having to lap the sole. And after a good friend suggested I check, a year later I checked and found that the mild steel had moved even more. Also, now that I have a mill it's much less of an issue, but when I worked with just a hacksaw and files I found removing waste from mild steel to be remarkably frustrating. It doesn't

If I had the sort of broad metalworking background that George has, I suspect I'd probably have a much broader capacity to deal with these things, but for me the metalwork is completely secondary to the wood and the final product. I find O1 to be a much more idiot-proof material overall. I can't say I've ever had it work-harden on me at all, and it's certainly never chipped on me. 300-series stainless is another story...

Personally, I much prefer bronze to brass but if I wanted brass I'd agree to stick with 260 (cartridge brass) or Naval brass (464) for a prettier, maintenance-free surface.

Also - 45 degree dovetails are, not to put to fine a point on it - insane. I use 10-12 for the tails, and 8-10 for the secondary dovetails. The tails are still quite visible, and peining anything over 10 degrees into the secondaries is a nightmare.

edit: I just saw the point about using an alternative connection to dovetails - both Holtey and Ron Brese use variations on threaded pins to secure sidewall to sole. I like the traditional dovetails, but from a purely functional standpoint, those methods make at least as much sense. Personally, having messed just a little with the notion, I'd say that they're far from a shortcut, though - they require really precise machining and workflow management to get 'right'...I've never seen a sliding dovetail, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out. There are also any number of methods of brazing soles to sidewalls out there as well.

For me, though, the aesthetics and tradition will probably always keep me in the dovetails.

[Leigh Betsch]

Thanks for all the advise. I'm heading back to the shop today to give things another try. I contacted Tom Walz about silver soldering brass to steel. I think that is a better option for me. I sure hate pounding and peening on something that I've got fitting with nice precision. I have no problem getting the dovetail to fit precisely, so the metal fit will look just fine without having to peen things together. I used a 45 degree dovetail because that is a standard angle that you can get metal dovetail cutters in, I've not seen any in the 7 to 15 degree range. I'll give George's suggestion about using a standard carbide wood router bit a think through and maybe give it a try. I have to check my steel supply, I know I have plenty of O1 in the right thickness, I don't know what I have laying around in mild steel right now, and my brass supply is limited to the 1/2 hard stuff that didn't peen very well. So I think it will be O1 and 1/2 hard brass but if I silver solder I don't think that should be a issue this time around.

Now if I can get my cam software to work again I can get the cnc mill to do all the hard profile work, but that's another story.........

[Leigh Betsch]

I re-read George's post regarding using a HSS router bit. As I only have carbide, it will be carbide router bit or my milling cutter at 45, gotta do some noodling on this one. I want to make sure the mouth of the sole is fixed tightly, and the pitch of a the 45 degree dovetail may not lend itself to to doing this very well.

[Raney Nelson]

Leigh,

I have custom 4-flute carbide cutters ground to different angles -- not dirt cheap, but not terrible. Just one note, though, on the peining -- if you're doing it right, it really shouldn't feel abusive. Can I suggest that you skip the 45 for the secondary dovetails? I really can't wrap my head around trying to move that much material around. Even if you get them to close up, I suspect you'd end up really only folding them over rather than filling the gap. The problem with that, beyond the structural concerns, is that when you start to clean up you're likley to uncover huge gaps all over again.

Use your 45s for the primary dovetails, and just use a triangular or barrette file to put shallow secondaries in place. This is really not a very onerous task - probably took me under 2 minutes per pin when I did them that way.

The only reason I'd be averse to the silver solder is that I'd be concerned it will be visible in the final product. That's hardly an area I know much about, though - I'd be interested to see how they turn out.
r

[george wilson]

I cannot respond to the use of 01 as a plane sole,as I've never used it. I just have used mild steel on all the planes I have previously posted here, including the long plane in the black and white photo, and can only cite the original old makers who used wrought iron or mild steel in theirs. At the time I made them,I had hardly any metal working equipment,except for a lathe.

Perhaps if I make another plane I'll try 01 for the sole.

[Raney Nelson]

Your point is well taken, George - I generally tend to stick to the old makers' techniques whenever possible as well -- I rarely go wrong with that approach, and I prefer to learn from experience than remake all the old mistakes. In this case, however, my own experience has shifted me in a different direction. I've talked to quite a few of the modern makers quite a bit, and this seems to be a point on which people fall firmly on one side or the other. I know of several who firmly avoid mild steel, and at least one who sees no point whatsoever in using anything but mild steel. So I suppose this is one of those cases where either approach is valid - there are certainly any number of spectacular planes out there as proof of either approach.

I've always wanted to try a plane with wrought iron, but it's not really an off-the-shelf material. Someday, I'd like to obtain some though just for the experience of making one with the oldest materials...

One of the other things I quite like about O1, though, is the range of finishes I can easily get with it. Not the easiest picture to see it on, but the toe piece and chamfers on this plane are polished fairly highly (about 800 grit-equivalent), while the sidewalls are more matte (probably 220 equivalent - I dont recall). I never did have as much success with mild steel aesthetically - though in fairness, I probably didn't put as much effort into working with it.

http://www.daedtoolworks.com/images/M3-Bx%20-%200076.jpg

[george wilson]

Very pretty. I hope that my soon to be new eyes will help me to be more energetic. I like making planes,but have been tired,and too grumpy,too. It is supposed to take 30 percent of your energy to run your eyes. Maybe without the cataracts I won't be quite so tired,and can get back to making tools and guitars.

[Leigh Betsch]

I'm sure you'll get back in the groove George. I've heard good things about cataract surgery. I had my eyes lasek'd for near sightedness about 12 years ago, worked out well, but now they are getting that old age thing. Kinda weird though, I'm getting nearsighted not far sighted like most. I take my glasses off a lot in the shop so I can see up close better. Then I have to look around for my glasses, I'm always laughing at myself now days!

I got my tails re-cut this afternoon. I'll finish up the pins in the evenings this week, and then wait for the silver solder and flux to arrive.

The good news is I found some free cam software that looks like it will work to replace my copy of Surfcam that went on the blink. So my cnc mill is back up and running. That's going to make cutting the sideplate profile a lot easier for me. I may even just mill out a couple of infill smoother side plates too!!

Wish you well with the surgery.

[Stephen Pereira]

Actually,I have used cold rolled as the finish is smoother,and no crust to show between the surfaces where their edges show in a dovetail. I've never used precision ground stock in any plane I have made. Brass can only be had with a smooth,rolled surface anyway.

.

Good advice to the OP, George. However, I don't like cold rolled..finish is nice to begin, nice square edges ..saves a lot of sanding, grinding whatever BUT the experts say that cold rolled moves more than hot rolled when machined. Can't say yay or nay based on personal experience.

Soak hot rolled in dilute HCL to remove most of the scale before you begin machining or take an AGGRESIVE first cut to get under the scale..saves on milling cutters.

Anyway, I'm following this thread with great interest. Lots of good info shared.

[Jon van der Linden]

I read on Karl Holtey's blog that he uses hot rolled mild steel because it's stress free. He does go through a lot to make it flat and square before he really starts to work with it though. You can see that process on his Dec. 26th 2010 post.

Since he's using the same combination of machining and hand processes as the OP I thought it worth mentioning. It does seem that he's moving away from the dovetailing to screwing/pinning the sides as a more stress free and accurate technique. That does entail using custom screws which he also makes.

Hot rolled steel also has an advantage as it's fairly inexpensive as steels go.

[Leigh Betsch]

Well, I re-built the sole and sides, cut new dovetails at 14 degrees. I used a carbide router bit, worked ok for brass, don't know if I'd use it for steel though. I've got everything looking good again, now just to wait for the silver solder.
Meanwhile I programed the CNC to cut the profile. I have to do a test run and then I'll cut the brass side plates.

[Stephen Pereira]

Yes, I saw his process..he is tapping alot of holes..for the average guy without a Tap Matic head for his mill that would be a royal pain. Of course if you could get 5K per plane, you too, could afford three identical mill vises per machine and all the other very expensive tooling.

The average guy wants to make a plane, or any other tool, that will out perform the run of the mill Stanley plane his grandfather used. Soooo. he hopes to trade sweat equity for dollars.

I like Derek Cohen's approach..recycle a common plane's carcass..forget the dovetailing, pinning and tapping. it might not be as pretty but I'd bet you'd be happy with the results.

[george wilson]

Hoy rolled is stress free compared to cold rolled. It has an oxide coating on it that can be hard to get off. Might try acids. It also doesn't machine as nice as cold rolled. The stress free part is very important,though. Machinists making angle plates for precision use generally use the hot rolled.

[David Weaver]

Stress free might be important, but i'm wondering in the world of hand planes if it's important enough to worry about. If it moves, you lap it.

If you have a hot rolled plane that's perfect, the wood is probably going to move it some at some point (or it will move as the wood does, even if the wood is just shrinking) and you'll put wear on it if you use it, anyway.

I agree with raney that the mild steel isn't as nice on an abrasive as the O1 - the only plane i've completed on it so far (an 18" panel plane) was very gummy feeling on my lapping plate. It was an extreme workout.

[Leigh Betsch]

Finally finished this. It pretty much kicked my butt. About every thing that could go wrong did during this build. Cam problems, computer problems, mill problems, wood problems, brass problems. But I finialy got it done. Well almost done. I need to knurl the adjuster. I plan to make a knurl hobbed from a tap like George taught us but I just wanted it done so I didn't knurl it, I'll remake the adjuster knob with the knurl latter this week. I also plan to put a brushed finish on the brass, I buffed it up today but I figure it's just going to get scratched up so I may as well just go with a brushed finish.

[David Weaver]

Looks great, Leigh.

I think unless you make infills for a living and have a bunch to make, every one is pretty much jumping from problem to problem until it's finished. But the result is always worthwhile.

[george wilson]

Now,see,your life as an infill maker isn't over!!!:) I take it the router bit worked in the steel? You should mill everything away with a regular end mill,then come back with the angled cutter and just mill the angles(if you aren't already doing that.)

[Jeff Wittrock]

Beautiful plane. There is just nothing so enjoyable as making and using your own tools.

[Terry Beadle]

Question: When you are using the end mill to initially shape the dove tail socket area, how many rpm's is the end mill spinning at?

[Kevin Foley]

Leigh,

I did the same thing with my first brass sided plane. I ended up with a user. I picked alloy 360 "free machining" brass. It machines well but it's cold-working properties are nil. It's brittle. 260 is gummy when machined but works well with a hammer. Mr Bill Carter was kind enough to reply to a question about brass alloys for planes brittleness and he said he prefers bronze. The other problem with 360 brass is that it gets it's free-machining qualities by the addition of lead (about 2% to 4% by weight) so handling it, getting filing on you hands and breathing dust is not a good idea. Since my mistake I look at the MSDS for any alloys I'm purchasing

[george wilson]

I might warn anyone who uses 360 alloy brass,that it doesn't like lead solder. Use lead free. I could be wrong,as my memory isn't clear on this minor event,but about 20 years ago,my wife and I had bad luck trying to silver solder it,too. Like I said,it's been a long time,but I only ever ordered 1 piece of 360 to make jewelry models from,and had trouble.

I know 360 doesn't lead solder,since we used 360 on the ellipsograph not that long ago. I found that lead free soldered it well.

Back in the 70's,when I was making a lot of brass planes for collectors,I found that if you use 260,and lead solder,if you heated the brass up to red hot,the solder alloyed into the brass,and the joint became practically the same as solid. IF you do heat the brass up very hot,and forcefully pull it apart to try to take it apart,there are many,many long fingers of brass that pull out of the joint. So,once soldered like described,the joint is VERY strong and very permanent.

I discussed this alloying on the Practical Machinist's Forum years ago. It was agreed that the lead does alloy itself into the 260 brass,if gotten hot enough. I just used regular lead solder flux. Once the solder is melted,the flux is not really needed further,and you do not get into trouble heating to higher temps..

I advise using a hood to get the solder that hot,though. Lead fumes might evolve. However,when I did it,I never noticed any smoke coming from the solder. It might just all go into the brass. Best to be safe,though. You could experimentally try this if you wish to save money on expensive silver solder. Don't go trying it on serious work at first,though. You might have brass that isn't 260,or some other reason that causes it to not work.

[Leigh Betsch]

Terry, I really don't know the rpm. I cut the dovetails in my jig borer with a VFD to drive it. The VFD gives me variable speed so I just just rotate the knob until I find the sweet spot. I did rough them with a straight cutter then finished with the dovetail router bit.
I picked up some 260 brass to give things another shot. I think I'll change the construction to split the next one down the middle, machine it in haves with my cnc, then pin it and screw it together rather than anchoring side plates to a sole, and sandwiching the frog between. This way the frog and front can be machined in the solid and get rid of some of the hand fitting of the frog, and make it a bit more solid. I will still dovetail and silver solder a steel sole onto it, I think I have that process worked out.
I have my profile cam programs done so I won't have to redo that part. The cam programing should have been the easy part but my old software crapped out on me, had to get new software, the hard drive in my programming computer died , back up computer 3.5 floppy drive died, machine controller 3.5 worked but the cd drive crapped out. I ended up taking 4 computers apart to get one that works. I guess thats what happens when you rely on 1995 vintage computers. I'm now down to one computer from last century to drive the mill and use my newer home lap top to draw and program. About as far away from neandering as you can get. I'm sure some of you guys could have whittled this thing out with your pocket knife quicker than I built it with my mill. But once I get all the programing done I can knock the the profiles out pretty quickly, course one is probably enough anyway!